Why are the PSA charts misleading?

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D

Defcon

Audioholic
I've read this here and on AVS, and I took a quick look. These are all CEA 2010 figures from their sites

From PSA - http://www.powersoundaudio.com/products/v1500

HSU VTF-15H MK2 1 port open
16-25 116.3
31-50 125.5
63-100 125.8

From HSU - http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15hmk2.html

16 111.3
20 116.1
25 119.6
31.5 123.5
40 126.1
50 126.6

If you take the averages, you get
16-25 115.6
31-50 125.4

HSU doesn't list the 100Hz figure so I can't calculate the 3rd entry.
So PSA quotes figures that are actually higher than HSU.

Am I missing something here? Are the PSA values for CEA-2010 not correct?
 
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shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
What's missing is that Hsu isn't saying their data is exactly comparable to other data sets (because it isn't). Hsu also post some what conservative measurements, often going under third party test results, while PSA does the opposite.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Imho averaging CEA (even in pascals) makes little sense and for me instead of somewhat clear picture of regular CEA number, makes comparison near useless. One thing they've done right is to move away from comparing PSA vs other brands. Next one to go should be confusing PSA output factor.

Somehow I fail to see why 15S is 1 then S1500 0.9 (same for their ported brothers) and speaking about 15V vs v1500. Later is 11lb heavier, lower in room extension and high output across all average points, yet somehow "loses" to 15V in Output factor.... I believe there's a typo somewhere... (best case)

Just to be clear, I have nothing against PSA products, nor I am making any comments regarding performance. Just web site specs/info.
 
D

Defcon

Audioholic
Where did Pascals come into the picture? I just averaged the HSU numbers for the given frequencies, is that wrong?

I don't see where the V1500 is losing out to 15V - 1.1x 15V = 1x V1500, so its actually better.

HSU and CEA both posted CEA numbers. Why are they not directly comparable? Its a standardized measurement, by definition its designed to be compared. Are you saying the HSU figures posted on their website are conservative but other oem's are not - if so, proof?

To be clear, I don't really care about these 1-3dB output differences, there are many other things which matter more, such as compression, response speed, room placement etc. But numbers remain the best way to actually compare 2 subs.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
When you average, you convert the numbers to pascals. That is a specified part of the standard. It is a bit of a controversial part of the standard though, at least to industry people. Here is an explanation of the rational for it:

"Annex A of the CEA 2010 standard recommends adding SPL data in dB to average over the critical bands they refer to as "Ultra Low" (20Hz to 31.5Hz) and "Low" (40 to 63Hz). It is mathematically incorrect to average logarithmic based numbers (such as decibels) as it will bias the outcome to the lowest number in the data set. The correct way to average dB's is to first convert them to Pascals (a linear, not logarithmic, measure of pressure) to properly average the data before converting back to dB's. There is a problem averaging like this, however, since our ears don't hear loudness equally for different frequencies. Averaging in Pascals will bias the average to the highest measurement in the data set. Properly averaging in Pascals (Pa) will make a sub with just one good SPL # still have a good average score. Averaging in dB’s (instead of Pascals) will make a sub with just one bad SPL # look bad..."

In theory CEA-2010 numbers should be comparable, but in practice they are not, at least not to the degree which PSA does on their charts. This is a part of why they are bogus, CEA-2010 is not comparable out to a tenth of a decibel, not even close to that. Its especially misleading when you give your own measurements a 'little boost' and compare that to third party measurements of competitors' products.

If you want to see how CEA-2010 measurements can differ, take a look at different test results for any sub of the same unit. Look at the different data for the VTF15h mk1, that was tested by four different testers. Some of the numbers are similar but some of them are pretty far off. Here is the data in a spreadsheet:

The testers are Hsu, Brent Butterworth (BB), Josh Ricci (JR), and Paul Apollonio (PA). None of these results are wrong, and none of them are 'right'. They are simply what was recorded in those conditions. Now look at the third party data for PSA subwoofers, and compare them to PSA's numbers. I don't have that comparison handy but they are all slightly over Josh Ricci's results whereas Hsu's results are slightly under. Want to see a nice clear illustration of how PSA is gaming numbers, compare Josh Ricci's results of the XV30se and Rythmik FV15HP to the numbers PSA has posted in their comparison chart.

Btw, I agree that a decibel or two difference in CEA-2010 isn't a big deal, but PSA is presenting the metric as an absolute performance measurement. They might say they aren't, but consider what an uninformed visitor to their website would think.
 
D

Defcon

Audioholic
Thanks, I understand better now. Or rather, I don't understand at all, I give up this is such a mess :)

If CEA 2010 cannot be averaged (or rather any dB numbers can't be averaged) then the whole thing is pointless IMO. Its like quoting a cars 0-20, 20-40 and 40-60 times and then saying oh you can't really get 0-60 from those.

Why can't there be a proper test to compare numbers for all subs? Can all the companies not agree to donate subs to Josh and hire some more people to help him, since his is the only site which seems to be trusted by everyone.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
CEA-2010 was supposed to be a standard, but there aren't many CEA-testers, and the few who do CEA testing all kind of do their own thing. The testers I listed up there are pretty much the only third party testers of CEA-2010 measurements, and Paul Apollonio hasn't don't any sub reviews for years now. Its a good standard for comparing subs within a certain tester's own data set, like data-bass.com, but don't bring other tester's data in a comparison with data-bass' measurements. There will never be a better standard which everyone adheres to because subwoofers aren't a major industry like automobiles. Also, there is a lot of vested interest in ignoring quantitative data because most manufacturers don't make high performance subs. 95% of the subs out there are $150 junkers, and they won't test well. They certainly wouldn't be open to the idea of donating to Ricci's site.

As for averaging, yeah, you are damned if you do it in PA and damned if you do it in dB. Either result can lead to a false impression. That is why CEA-2010 measurements should not be averaged. If they must be compared, use graphs like Ricci's site, that will give you a more accurate impression of their performance. And even then, keep in mind CEA-2010 only tests burst output under a certain set of distortion thresholds; it is not a comprehensive picture of a subwoofer's performance!
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I think it's dumb to average the numbers.

I like seeing all of the data JR provides in his reviews at data-bass, not just the max output numbers.

I don't bother reading reviews without measurements.
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
I will usually purchase subs based on looks....all the numbers at DB help <1% of the buying public...if they sound nice bonus...:cool:
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
Here you go - http://www.funkaudio.ca/gallery.html
bonus - they sound great !!
price - well you didn't say anything about that did you :D

I have one on order....ETA...Aug 25th...;).

Frankly....tired of re-thinking my purchases and those what if...I'm fairly certain this will be my last sub. Unless of course... somebody builds a prettier looking sub...jk.:)
 
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D

Defcon

Audioholic
I have one on order....ETA...Aug 25th...;).

Frankly....tired of re-thinking my purchases and those what if...I'm fairly certain this will be my last sub. Unless of course... somebody builds a prettier looking sub...jk.:)
Please post your review when you get it!
 
billy p

billy p

Audioholic Ninja
All the kidding aside...we all know his craftsmanship is second to none. From the little I know and can understand from the graphs & charts at BD...I believe Nathan takes extreme care in design objectives to achieve unsurpassed sound quality with minimal harmonic distortion throughout all the bass, mid+upper bass frequencies. If you do a quick search/peak over at DB you'll notice his subs get amazing results with ultra low distortion levels even at some of the highest sine sweeps((115-120dbs)....duly noted you'll see other high profile units hit similar levels of distortion but at lower sweeps...so when you factor in the beauty of the cabinetry along with the technology involved in developing the TSAD drivers...though it comes at a price and others may provide equal to or marginally better value. Priorities will determine what you'll purchase but....having a sub that can play free of any distortion and look good doing so...gets my money.:)
 
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D

Defcon

Audioholic
Yes from what I've read his subs use pretty much the best drivers in the business along with really good dsp, and are tiny in footprint. Most of the ID subs are gigantic black boxes. And the advantage is you can get a 2nd sub later as a slave, very similar to Seaton in that respect.
 
B

Basshead81

Audioholic
The whole point of the comparison chart is to give a idea in Lehman's terms on where PSA sub's rank among the other competitors. If you were a owner of a company that worked 24/7 and answered hundreds of calls and emails a week asking how PSA sub's compare to X company then you might consider something simple to "dumb it down" for those that are not as knowledgeable about this stuff as well. I know for a fact Tom is not trying to trash other companies. I have seen him recommend other companies on several different occasions.
 
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