When to Add External Amplification to an A/V Receiver

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
i want to do 11 channel. the marantz sr7010 could process 11 channels at the same time if i could get a power amplifier for 2 extra channels. i want to do 7.1.4. that why i am asking if i get the mm7025 if i could put the 2 front speakers to it and keep the 4 dolby atmos speakers into the sr7010. (instead of what marantz is telling me to keep the front speakers in the sr 7010 with a set of dolby atmos speakers and to put second set of dolby atmos speakers into the mm7025).the mm7055 is another option but that one is 5 channels so maybe i could put the 2 front towers the center speaker and 2 of the surround speakers into it and put the 2 sets of dolby into the sr7010 but i don't know if that possible.
OK, thanks.
I looked at the back panel and I see 11 speaker terminals. Two pairs are assignable. I am sure that you could assign the 4 Atmos channels and speakers to them. So, I am not sure why this receiver is called 9 channels with 11 speaker terminals.
You can use that 7025 amp to drive your front speakers from that front pre out.
But, I would call Marantz and ask again why you cannot connect 4 Atmos speakers to those 4 assignable speaker terminals. I would think that this receiver can do 7.1.4 setup.
Ask that too why it cannot. If need be, ask a supervisor, or if you can download the full manual, check this out.

By the way, you may want to ask them if you can upgrade the software for the DTS Atmos equivalent when that gets adopted by Marantz.
I am sure those BDs will be coming too; you don't want to be limited to Atmos only.
 
D

Daniel Cruz

Audiophyte
that correct, maranz state you could connect up to 13 speakers but only 9 will work at the same time. and if you get an internal pa for 2 channel the marantz could them amplify 11 channels. my question is that if instead of me putting the dolby on the external pa if i could keep it on the sr7010 and use that external pa to power the front speakers. i was advice that instead of getting a 2 channels pa to get a 5 channels pa to put my fronts, center and a pair of surround and keep the dolby and the surrounds back on the sr7010 but before doing the purchase i want to know if i could do that.
 
D

Daniel Cruz

Audiophyte
OK, then where does the power come from for the 10th and 11 th speaker terminals and which processed channels don't have amp?
it depend on the sound mode. you could put the 13 speakers if you want to, but it will not work at the same time. am looking to operate at the same time so i dont need to do a lot of configurations. from those 13 terminals 9 will work at the same time.
 
Steve81

Steve81

Audioholics Five-0
OK, then where does the power come from for the 10th and 11 th speaker terminals
Just flexible amp assignment. With the onboard amps, you can run a 9.1, 7.1.2, or 5.1.4 setup, which would use different combinations of the speaker outputs.

processed channels don't have amp?
In the manual, the "example" 11.1 configurations all use the Height 2 preamp connectors, but I'm not sure that it's mandatory.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
it depend on the sound mode. you could put the 13 speakers if you want to, but it will not work at the same time. am looking to operate at the same time so i dont need to do a lot of configurations. from those 13 terminals 9 will work at the same time.
Boy, that manual is a nightmare. If I have it right, if you select 11.1, add an external power amp to a pre out, you can do 7.1.4 but I don't see which preamp out to use for the pa.
Did you ask Marantz if you can add the pa to the front l/r channel if the receiver will reassign the internal amp to accommodate 4 Atmos speakers? Or, must you use the height ch out?
I have a hunch that in your case the pa needs to be on the height pre.
Not a very good manual or to navigate the on line one.
I wonder if AVS has an ongoing chat about this receiver for you to browse through.
 
D

Daniel Cruz

Audiophyte
yes, to use dolby atmos speakers marantz let use use height front, height rear or height back. in amp assign you will need to say you have dolby speakers and then it let you use the height to use them. i did it when i was following the instruction during speakers installation.i use 3 forums to follow, i follow avs forum, avf forum and audioholic forum.
 
U

UKenGB

Audiophyte
Not getting into the finer points of amplifier sound quality, but I am interested in the exact question of this topic. I have a Yamaha RX767 and also a spare M70 power amp which I am considering utilising to power the fronts (quite large Yamaha 'Club' speakers) which I suspect will benefit from the M70's capabilities. But will the RX benefit from not driving the fronts itself? Will the other channels benefit in any way?

There was a statement that the 'spare' amplifier channels could be used for other purposes, like other rooms, but the M70 can power 3 pairs of speakers which is sufficient. It would be handy to be able to use those channels for dedicated Surround Rear (normally shared with Presence on the RX767), but I don't see any way to do this.

I haven't tested it yet, but what happens to the Front amp channels when the external amp is plugged into the Pre-out terminals? Will that shut down that part of the amp or could I connect other speakers to that and drive them in parallel to the external amp?

I'm sure on previous Yamaha amps I've found that plugging the phono into the Pre-out disabled the built-in amp for those channels. But the RX manual simply says if the Pre-outs are used, don't connect speakers to those speaker terminals, without any indication of why not and what will happen if you do.

Sorry, I guess it's a bit specific to those amps, but if anyone has any ideas about this, I'd be interested to hear, particularly with reference to any benefit the RX would gain if its front channels were being handled eternally and so those built-in channels would effectively be idle.

By way of explanation, this is NOT my main listening location. It's just my workshop where I like to have some reasonable sound wile working on my motorcycles :)
 
R

RXP

Audioholic Intern
I'm a new fan of the YouTube vids and just saw this one. Posted this comment - isn't it valid?

A good way to test if you need a power amp is to look at the rated power output of your Receiver's power supply and use a power meter to see if it's approaching the limit at the limits of your listening - for example when playing 7 channel stereo or Michael Bay making things go BOOM in Transformers 4.

For example, my Onkyo 838 is rated to 720w. If I see it approaching that I should seek external amplification.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'm a new fan of the YouTube vids and just saw this one. Posted this comment - isn't it valid?

A good way to test if you need a power amp is to look at the rated power output of your Receiver's power supply and use a power meter to see if it's approaching the limit at the limits of your listening - for example when playing 7 channel stereo or Michael Bay making things go BOOM in Transformers 4.

For example, my Onkyo 838 is rated to 720w. If I see it approaching that I should seek external amplification.
Where did you get that 720w power supply output figure? What/how are you going to use to measure the output of the avr's power supply? Just looking at the measurements in the S&V review I don't think you've got the right power supply rating.
 
R

RXP

Audioholic Intern
I got the PSU unit output from the datasheet: It's under power consumption.

I use a plug power meter and have a fancier one that you can connect to via WiFi

I've been using this method for years to measure power consumption on my (computer) servers. They can even detect when a 4-5w disk is spinning on a load of a thousand watts.

I'll do some testing tonight - think the WiFi one will give a nice chart but the resolution is only per minute or so. Within the app you can manually refresh though and get spot reading - that's going to be most useful when things start going boom in a Michael Bay movie or multichannel stereo.

I realise this is a measurement of power draw from the wall. But if the PSU is rated to 720w if it's approaching near that we can make the conclusion that the PSU isn't powerful enough to supply some of the speakers in the system so needs offloading.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I don't think you understand the spec you found on the datasheet. It benches 700w into 7ch, and it's not a 100% efficient amp, is it?
 
R

RXP

Audioholic Intern
Of course not - it also has a lot of processing on board that's sucking power too.

A common claim is that these integrated amps have weak PSU's that can't feed all the amplifiers onboard. My reasoning is if these PSU's are weak and need another amp to off load some of the work you'll notice it starting to suck out near the max rated power supply when scenes in movies get loud/bassy. If it's no where near that it's safe to assume the onboard PSU can handle the power requirements of the amps.

If this is poor reasoning it'd be good to know why?

Thanks,
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Of course not - it also has a lot of processing on board that's sucking power too.

A common claim is that these integrated amps have weak PSU's that can't feed all the amplifiers onboard. My reasoning is if these PSU's are weak and need another amp to off load some of the work you'll notice it starting to suck out near the max rated power supply when scenes in movies get loud/bassy. If it's no where near that it's safe to assume the onboard PSU can handle the power requirements of the amps.

If this is poor reasoning it'd be good to know why?

Thanks,
It is not rocket science but more complicated that that so called "common claim". Just a few quick points:

1) Power draw from the wall outlet represents the input power to your audio device, not the output.
2) The ratio of power input to output of your device various greatly depending on their design but mainly on their overall efficiencies (that is also affected by their different designs).
3) Power consumption specs are almost useless because different manufacturers provide different figures based on different standards and/or methodologies. Examples: under different freq response bandwidth, distortions, test duration (no such thing as continuous in a true sense), number of channels driven, average, peak, maximum etc.etc.etc....
4) Because of 3), you cannot tell the size of the power supply transformer based on the specified power consumption figure. That means it is quite possible that an amp with lower power consumption figure could have a larger power supply transformer and vice versa.
5) Even if you have the VA (volt-amp) rating of the transformer, a) the manufacturer may not be accurate about those figures (e.g. some might have provided inflated figures by mistake on their website but ignored them for whatever reasons, you can PM me for an example if you wish), b) transformers typically have excellent overload capability for short term demands, and such characteristics do vary among different design/build transformers.
6) Capacitors can store tremendous amount of energy for short demands, so you can't just look at the transformer VA specs without considering the capacitors used in the power supply.
7) Everything being equal, power supplies with better cooling (including the use of fans) will have better so called "continuous" power output rating.
8) Some amps may have relatively stronger power supplies, but they may have amp sections that are not as strong as others that have relatively weaker power supplies so again, you can't say one that has a stronger power supply is necessarily more powerful.

There are more, above are just examples. There are also the impact/effects from the nature of various music contents, that they are in complex waveform represented mathematically by an infinite series of sine waves of the fundamental frequency and harmonics such that one can argue all day about whether for a given manufacturer budget it is better to maximize 2,3 channel output vs all channel driven output, continuous average output vs the so called dynamic output etc.

Bottom line, don't draw conclusion by reading off the power consumption figure on the back panel. The VA rating of the PSU transformer, combined with the specs of the PSU capacitors probably give you a pretty good idea, all else being equal such as class AB vs class AB, not class D or G. In that case, make sure you get the reliable info, not just from commercials, not even those from the manufacturer websites.
 
R

RXP

Audioholic Intern
Thanks Peng, you just saved me from wasting my time doing pointless measurements!
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks Peng, you just saved me from wasting my time doing pointless measurements!
And thank you, RXP, for coming here convinced of your hypothesis yet willing to accept contradiction from an expert. That's pretty refreshing.
 
R

RXP

Audioholic Intern
And a nice reply, backed up with solid reasoning and not audiophile voodoo is a refreshing change. I've always posted on avforums for years (since I got into the hobby 10-15 years ago) and was tired of reading the voodoo. Despite being skeptical I was getting sucked into room EQ, bass traps etc.

Audioholics came up on my YT feed and it was a refreshing change that the guys apply science and aren't a slave to measurement either. Because ultimately it's about what hits your ears and how your brain processes that.

Thanks for warm welcome herbu and PENG! I'll stick around:)
 
R

RXP

Audioholic Intern
After doing a lot of research on this over the last month or so I've decided to use an external amp to drive my front B&W 803s. I'm posting this because i hope it'll be valuable in future google searches and for some advice.

Currently have an Onkyo 838 and an old Yamaha RXV2700

  • I'm using all 7 channels (5.1.2). It's rated as follows - 7 channels driven 85 watts
  • 838 has full pre-outs
  • High quality RCA cable to the RX2700 from pre outs on 838
  • RXV2700 has regular L/R inputs on any channel and front channel bi-amp
  • RXV2700 bi-amp is rated at 180 watts for each L/R channel (360 watts total)

Total max output will now be 111 watts a channel on the 838 and 180 watts on the RXV2700. Total power 553 watts on 838 and 360 watts on RXV2700. Therefore between two Receivers = 913 watts.

The biamp power on the RXV2700 seems to really suit use as a separate receiver.

The only thing I'm confused about is what to set the RXV2700's volume at. I plan to run a calibration and to output 75db on the RX2700. Once that's done I set the volume to 0 and use the channel volumes on the 838. I don't see this being any different than with a subwoofer. But would like to know what people think.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
The only thing I'm confused about is what to set the RXV2700's volume at. I plan to run a calibration and to output 75db on the RX2700. Once that's done I set the volume to 0 and use the channel volumes on the 838. I don't see this being any different than with a subwoofer. But would like to know what people think.
That sounds about right, but to play safe and minimize the chance of damaging the speakers, always have the 838 turned on first. Even safer, increase the 2700 volume to "0" after it's on and settled. To turn off, turn the 2700 volume way down first, then turn the 2700 off, and then the 838.

I don't think the Yamaha is rated 180W, though when bench tested by S&V, at 0.1% THD, into 8 ohms it did come close. I prefer to think it is capable of 125 to 140W at 0.01%. You also cannot assume biamping will get you double the output because the Yamaha's rated output of 140WPC was for 2 channel driven only. It also depends on the power draw split between the high/mid and the bass drivers, as determined by the crossover design. My guess is that if the 803S's group the mid range driver with the tweeter, then the split would probably be around 30/70 to 40/60 on average, depending on the music contents.

http://www.soundandvision.com/content/three-ways-fill-rack-ht-labs-measures-yamaha#kbKW1FhP3cjFm0AU.97

http://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/yamaha-rx-v2700-receiver-review/rx-v2700-measurements-and-analysis
 

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top