Think I'm ready to move on from my 10 year old setup

M

Methodical

Audioholic
For the past couple weeks, I was dead set on getting a 7 channel amplifier (Mono 7) to use with my Denon AVR 3805 setup, but instead I started thinking that an updated AVR may be the better investment at this point, especially since I already have 3 amplifiers. I want newer technology to take advantage of the newer surround modes etc. However, I have not been engaged in this market until, well a couple weeks or so ago. I took a peak at the market and realized that there are so many makes and models and it became overwhelming. I'm not asking that you spoon feed me, but if you can point out some of the current AVRs that would fit the bill of my needs/wants (see list below) and get me on the right path, I can then research them to determine what I like.

My current equipment is listed in my signature if that helps.

It doesn't have to be the '16 model. I am willing to get the '15 or even '14 models as I know the prices of the top tier units most likely have dropped a bit. Also, do these newer units require that I spend days and possible weeks setting up the system again as I did with the Denon 3805 or has things gotten a bit easier since 2006? I'd appreciate any help.

I have budget of $1500. Below are some of the requirements I want/need out of the AVR.

1. At least 7.1 surround (match my current setup).
2. SACD multichannel audio.
3. 8 preamp outputs for external amps.
4. 2x subwoofer output (not a deal breaker though).
5. Newer HDMI support for current blue ray formats.
6. Input for phono.
7. Input for tape deck.
8. Input for CD player.
9. Bluetooth would be good, but not necessary.
10. Upgradeable to Atmos at some point maybe, but not a deal breaker (still researching this Atmos stuff though).

Thanks...Al
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
For the past couple weeks, I was dead set on getting a 7 channel amplifier (Mono 7) to use with my Denon AVR 3805 setup, but instead I started thinking that an updated AVR may be the better investment at this point, especially since I already have 3 amplifiers. I want newer technology to take advantage of the newer surround modes etc. However, I have not been engaged in this market until, well a couple weeks or so ago. I took a peak at the market and realized that there are so many makes and models and it became overwhelming. I'm not asking that you spoon feed me, but if you can point out some of the current AVRs that would fit the bill of my needs/wants (see list below) and get me on the right path, I can then research them to determine what I like.

My current equipment is listed in my signature if that helps.

It doesn't have to be the '16 model. I am willing to get the '15 or even '14 models as I know the prices of the top tier units most likely have dropped a bit. Also, do these newer units require that I spend days and possible weeks setting up the system again as I did with the Denon 3805 or has things gotten a bit easier since 2006? I'd appreciate any help.

I have budget of $1500. Below are some of the requirements I want/need out of the AVR.

1. At least 7.1 surround (match my current setup).
2. SACD multichannel audio.
3. 8 preamp outputs for external amps.
4. 2x subwoofer output (not a deal breaker though).
5. Newer HDMI support for current blue ray formats.
6. Input for phono.
7. Input for tape deck.
8. Input for CD player.
9. Bluetooth would be good, but not necessary.
10. Upgradeable to Atmos at some point maybe, but not a deal breaker (still researching this Atmos stuff though).

Thanks...Al
You will not find tape loops any more. A few receivers may have a tape out, but it will only send a signal form analog sources and NOT digital ones. This is for reasons of DRM.

Also DSD decoders are not common and the multi channel analog inputs have pretty much gone by the wayside. So the most common situation is now sending PCM from the SACD player over HDMI.

What are your speakers. I think that really decides the issue of whether to recommend a good pre/pro and external amps, or your proposed solution.

The receivers to look at are Denon, Marantz and Yamaha. I would give the others a miss.

There is the really only receiver that comes close to your wish list. The only thing lacking, is the tape monitor loop, which you will not find anywhere, and a DSD decoder. I doubt you will find that any longer. This is the only receiver that meets most of your specs, and has multi channel audio inputs for your SACD player.

You can save money by getting rid of the phono input and using and external phono preamp, and dispensing with the 7.1 analog inputs. In the latter case you would have to have the CD player send the audio as PCM over HDMI.

Unfortunately for you your request list is not easy to full fill.
 
M

Methodical

Audioholic
You will not find tape loops any more. A few receivers may have a tape out, but it will only send a signal form analog sources and NOT digital ones. This is for reasons of DRM.

Also DSD decoders are not common and the multi channel analog inputs have pretty much gone by the wayside. So the most common situation is now sending PCM from the SACD player over HDMI.

What are your speakers. I think that really decides the issue of whether to recommend a good pre/pro and external amps, or your proposed solution.

The receivers to look at are Denon, Marantz and Yamaha. I would give the others a miss.

There is the really only receiver that comes close to your wish list. The only thing lacking, is the tape monitor loop, which you will not find anywhere, and a DSD decoder. I doubt you will find that any longer. This is the only receiver that meets most of your specs, and has multi channel audio inputs for your SACD player.

You can save money by getting rid of the phono input and using and external phono preamp, and dispensing with the 7.1 analog inputs. In the latter case you would have to have the CD player send the audio as PCM over HDMI.

Unfortunately for you your request list is not easy to full fill.
Thanks for the response.

I figured the tape deck was a long shot. That's something I can live without. At the very least, I can use the 3805 for this purpose. As far as SACD goes as long as it's still functional, then it doesn't have to include the analog inputs as long as the sound quality is there. Question. Is sending PCM over HDMI ok? Does sound quality take a hit or is it similar or better than using analog cables?

Another question. I typically connect the video output for the DVD and cable box, via HDMI, directly to the TV and send audio through the AVR. Is this going to be an issue with the newer AVR? Is it best to send all signals (video and audio) through the receiver?

Also, I keep seeing all this hype about Audessy. What's the hype about?

Will there be any sound quality enhancement going to a newer unit?

As far as speakers (Older Polks), I have them listed in my signature.

Again...thanks
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks for the response.

I figured the tape deck was a long shot. That's something I can live without. At the very least, I can use the 3805 for this purpose. As far as SACD goes as long as it's still functional, then it doesn't have to include the analog inputs as long as the sound quality is there. Question. Is sending PCM over HDMI ok? Does sound quality take a hit or is it similar or better than using analog cables?

Another question. I typically connect the video output for the DVD and cable box, via HDMI, directly to the TV and send audio through the AVR. Is this going to be an issue with the newer AVR? Is it best to send all signals (video and audio) through the receiver?

Also, I keep seeing all this hype about Audessy. What's the hype about?

Will there be any sound quality enhancement going to a newer unit?

As far as speakers (Older Polks), I have them listed in my signature.

Again...thanks
First it is best to send the all peripherals to the receiver and just have one HDMI cable going from the receiver to TV.

As far as having the player convert DSD to PCM and sending it to the receiver over HDMI, I think it is fine. Remember though there is an extra conversion, and so it does depend on how good a job the player does of that conversion. To die hard SACD enthusiasts converting DSD to HDMI is sacrilege! However I think that is actually fine for most purposes.

As far as Audyssey is concerned it is to an extent controversial. My view is that it sets distance, speaker level and crossover points correctly. As far as Eq goes, some swear by it and some swear at it. My experience is that it ruins good systems and I run as far away from those auto Eq systems as I can. I think attempting to Eq a system at a distant points is a poor concept. I suspect might help poor rooms, especially those with bass problems, but one thing I know is that it will not turn bad speakers into good ones.

As far as sound quality is concerned that is difficult to judge. Speakers are just so dominant in the sound of a system and to an extent the room, especially of it is poor. So the caveat is, that of it is improved sound quality you are after then put the money into better speakers. I'm certainly no Polk fan boy and that's putting it mildly.
 
TheWarrior

TheWarrior

Audioholic Ninja
First it is best to send the all peripherals to the receiver and just have one HDMI cable going from the receiver to TV.

As far as having the player convert DSD to PCM and sending it to the receiver over HDMI, I think it is fine. Remember though there is an extra conversion, and so it does depend on how good a job the player does of that conversion. To die hard SACD enthusiasts converting DSD to HDMI is sacrilege! However I think that is actually fine for most purposes.

As far as Audyssey is concerned it is to an extent controversial. My view is that it sets distance, speaker level and crossover points correctly. As far as Eq goes, some swear by it and some swear at it. My experience is that it ruins good systems and I run as far away from those auto Eq systems as I can. I think attempting to Eq a system at a distant points is a poor concept. I suspect might help poor rooms, especially those with bass problems, but one thing I know is that it will not turn bad speakers into good ones.

As far as sound quality is concerned that is difficult to judge. Speakers are just so dominant in the sound of a system and to an extent the room, especially of it is poor. So the caveat is, that of it is improved sound quality you are after then put the money into better speakers. I'm certainly no Polk fan boy and that's putting it mildly.
Audyssey's bass tuning is nothing more than the same 'auto setup' functions you just described; level, distance and (some) phase issues. If you just threw your sub where ever it looks best, that could potentially be the worst sounding location. Audyssey will not be able to help with that, either!
 
M

Methodical

Audioholic
First it is best to send the all peripherals to the receiver and just have one HDMI cable going from the receiver to TV.

As far as having the player convert DSD to PCM and sending it to the receiver over HDMI, I think it is fine. Remember though there is an extra conversion, and so it does depend on how good a job the player does of that conversion. To die hard SACD enthusiasts converting DSD to HDMI is sacrilege! However I think that is actually fine for most purposes.

As far as Audyssey is concerned it is to an extent controversial. My view is that it sets distance, speaker level and crossover points correctly. As far as Eq goes, some swear by it and some swear at it. My experience is that it ruins good systems and I run as far away from those auto Eq systems as I can. I think attempting to Eq a system at a distant points is a poor concept. I suspect might help poor rooms, especially those with bass problems, but one thing I know is that it will not turn bad speakers into good ones.

As far as sound quality is concerned that is difficult to judge. Speakers are just so dominant in the sound of a system and to an extent the room, especially of it is poor. So the caveat is, that of it is improved sound quality you are after then put the money into better speakers. I'm certainly no Polk fan boy and that's putting it mildly.
Thanks again.

Well, I am certainly no SACD purist, so long as it sounds good, I'm ok with the conversions. Does the Oppo BD-93 do a decent conversion?

I have no qualms with "auto" automation, however, when it comes to Eq'g, I am a bit anal and tend to tweak things myself. My current setup has good sound and bass response, so the receiver would basically take over for the 3805, but who knows, the Audyssey may improve upon things.

What is it that you don't like about Polk speakers? Also, what are some nicer speakers out there? Since I am in an upgrade mood, who knows.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks again.

Well, I am certainly no SACD purist, so long as it sounds good, I'm ok with the conversions. Does the Oppo BD-93 do a decent conversion?

I have no qualms with "auto" automation, however, when it comes to Eq'g, I am a bit anal and tend to tweak things myself. My current setup has good sound and bass response, so the receiver would basically take over for the 3805, but who knows, the Audyssey may improve upon things.

What is it that you don't like about Polk speakers? Also, what are some nicer speakers out there? Since I am in an upgrade mood, who knows.
Well, don't go buying speakers that someone ELSE likes.

Own the speakers that YOU like.

I think if you are interested, go listen to other speakers available. You can even order online with free shipping both ways (free returns). If you think the new speakers still sound better after 30 days or more, then it's time to upgrade.
 
M

Methodical

Audioholic
Well, don't go buying speakers that someone ELSE likes.

Own the speakers that YOU like.

I think if you are interested, go listen to other speakers available. You can even order online with free shipping both ways (free returns). If you think the new speakers still sound better after 30 days or more, then it's time to upgrade.
No, I won't do that. I just like to get some idea of what's out there as I know folks around here have lots of experience with various pieces of equipment. I haven't been following this stuff since I setup my HT ('06). I'd hate to waste my time if I can help it.

Thanks
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
You will not find tape loops any more. A few receivers may have a tape out, but it will only send a signal form analog sources and NOT digital ones. This is for reasons of DRM.
Incorrect...
The reason tape loops are deleted on AVRs is that it will not pass Dolby certification. Having a tape loop can corrupt the input level to the Dolby decoder...

Just my $0.02.. ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Incorrect...
The reason tape loops are deleted on AVRs is that it will not pass Dolby certification. Having a tape loop can corrupt the input level to the Dolby decoder...

Just my $0.02.. ;)
Yes, it would. Dolby in all its forms has been level sensitive. The line out and line in have to be exactly matched or there is pumping and severe upset in frequency response and dynamics.

DBX was largely free of that problem, but not to the extent claimed in my experience.

However the reason the tape out, which my unit has, does not pass signals from digital sources is for reasons of DRM.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Yes, it would. Dolby in all its forms has been level sensitive. The line out and line in have to be exactly matched or there is pumping and severe upset in frequency response and dynamics.

DBX was largely free of that problem, but not to the extent claimed in my experience.

However the reason the tape out, which my unit has, does not pass signals from digital sources is for reasons of DRM.
Could U pls advise back some examples of AVRs that include analog tape loops that have Dolby certification... Thnx..

Just my $0.02... ;)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Could U pls advise back some examples of AVRs that include analog tape loops that have Dolby certification... Thnx..

Just my $0.02... ;)
I'm agreeing with you that a tape loop would upset Dolby. There are no receivers with a tape loop, but some have a tape out, like my Marantz pre/pro. It is only active from an analog source.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
I'm agreeing with you that a tape loop would upset Dolby. There are no receivers with a tape loop, but some have a tape out, like my Marantz pre/pro. It is only active from an analog source.
Understood...
Analog Tape Outputs are quite different circuit-wise from a Tape Loop...
Actually Analog Tape Outs were quite common in AVRs of many brands, but now that analog sources are becoming scarce and moving to digital, so most brands have deleted this capability.

Just my $0.02.. ;)
 
M

Methodical

Audioholic
Understood...
Analog Tape Outputs are quite different circuit-wise from a Tape Loop...
Actually Analog Tape Outs were quite common in AVRs of many brands, but now that analog sources are becoming scarce and moving to digital, so most brands have deleted this capability.

Just my $0.02.. ;)
So, that's a huge music collection gone. What can I use to copy cassettes to discs? I have quite a bit of music on cassettes. Does the Denon CDR W1500 have that capability? I found one way using Win7 Pro and a regular tape player, but I want the best possible recording and to use my tape deck - using headset jack to microphone in on pc. I also found something called Audacity.

I guess at the the very least, I can use the 3805 or one of my other receivers with the tape deck, but I'd love to move all that music to a disc if still possible.


Thanks
 
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M

Mark of Cenla

Full Audioholic
You can play cassettes on any receiver that has RCA inputs available. A tape loop is not required for playback, only recording. A cassette deck can be connected the same way a CD player is. Peace and goodwill.
 
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M

Methodical

Audioholic
You can play cassettes on any receiver that has RCA inputs available. A tape loop is not required for playback, only recording. A cassette deck can be connected the same way a CD payer is. Peace and goodwill.
Great. That's good to know. Question. Since there's no specific input for a tape deck, if I use one of the other analog inputs, say games, do these units allow one to change the name of the input? I use a Harmony remote and program all the settings as appropriate and hope this won't cause a problem.

Btw, I'm still going put all that good music (tapes/LPs) on disc so that I can take it with me. I decided to use Audacity.

Thanks
 
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M

Mark of Cenla

Full Audioholic
You can use any of the analog inputs. I do not know for sure if the name can be changed, but it probably can be. Good luck. Peace and goodwill.
 
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