Identifying Legitimately High Fidelity Loudspeakers: Myths & Facts about Cabinets

[highfigh]

Hopefully this doesn't start an arguement, but I recently purchased a set of Arx A1s and A2 center, replacing my Axioms. I've always been a fan of Axiom, but now comparing the cabinets to the Arx the Axioms are not a solid and seem to echo with the knock test compared to the Arx. I compared the A1 bookshelf to the Axiom M2 and M22 and its not even fair the A1 weighs almost as much as the M22 and out weighs the M2 by 4-5lbs, to me thats a lot considering its a 5.25" bookshelf.

Reading this article the EP600 subwoofer kept coming to mind, its a 47" tall cabinet with no or next to zero bracing, but yet they want close to $2k for it. I posted on their forum and couldn't get an answer why Axioms subs are so much more compared to the other brands. For example the EP600 vs the SVS PB12+, the SVS out performed the Axiom in every test sound wise. The SVS has a better built cabinet, more powerful amp, and a slightly beefier driver thats also handmade just like Axioms, but yet Axiom charges $500-600 dollars more than the SVS. So my question to them was what factor causes Axiom to charge such a premium compared to the other brands?

What kind of finish is on each? If one is vinyl covered and the other is lacquered veneer or high gloss, like a piano, there's your answer. One takes no extra time to get the end result and the other is very time consuming. This is a moot point if the cabinets were made in Asia. OTOH, the difference may come from the cost of the drivers and crossover components.

[highfigh]

that's good stuff. Years ago when I worked my way through engineering school, I worked at a local hifi shop. I used to bench test amps for customers prior to installing them at their place. I also would routinely show them internals of loudspeakers by popping out woofers of the floor models. They loved it and it gave them an appreciation for good engineering. This seems to be lost today in a sea of psuedo science and dumbing down the public that good parts aren't needed for good sound....

When I started in this business, I was working at a small store and if we needed to repair speakers, we did it on the counter in the storefront, not the back room (unless the speakers were really large, then it was easier to leave them back there). The vast majority were brands that came from other dealers and some were just complete crap. One brand was called Omega, from Shaak Electronics. We came up with a replacement set of drivers and pre-made crossovers that sounded pretty decent for the price and we'd re-load about 3 sets every week, usually after the kids would have a big party. If someone could afford better speakers, we'd take them in that direction but for the teen-aged kids, these were a good, low-cost alternative. We educated a lot of kids about why one thing was better than another and they became good customers, even though the store owner would usually tell us that we should help another customer or do other things because "they're not going to buy anything- stop wasting time". 25-30 years later, many of them still have some of the equipment they bought back then and a few actually worked in the audio business.

[gtpsuper24]

What kind of finish is on each? If one is vinyl covered and the other is lacquered veneer or high gloss, like a piano, there's your answer. One takes no extra time to get the end result and the other is very time consuming. This is a moot point if the cabinets were made in Asia. OTOH, the difference may come from the cost of the drivers and crossover components.

Both Arx and Axiom has almost the same black "oak" type veneer. Not sure what you mean by "One takes no extra time to get the end result and the other is very time consuming"? I will try and post some pictures comparing the two the veneers are almost identical, the Arx's black "oak" seems a little less natural looking than the Axiom. The woofers are not even close Axioms only measures 4.25" from outer surround going across. The Arx measures 5.25-5.5" across starting from outer surrounds, but both start that they are 5.25". The baskets aren't even in the same league the Axioms use stamp baskets and are tiny, the Arx use cast metal basket with a huge magnet, that looks like a small subwoofer. That could be why the Arx weights more because of that magnet who knows but I might take them apart and check everything out in more detail.

I've always liked Axioms and I still do but I think I like the Arx better.

DISCLAIMER: This is totally subjective, these are my opinions on which sounds better to my ears. I'm not "pushing" "promoting" or "recommending" either brand, I read the article and though I'd give my opinion on my speakers I have since I can do a direct comparison between two similar priced ID bookshelfs.

[highfigh]

Both Arx and Axiom has almost the same black "oak" type veneer. Not sure what you mean by "One takes no extra time to get the end result and the other is very time consuming"? I will try and post some pictures comparing the two the veneers are almost identical, the Arx's black "oak" seems a little less natural looking than the Axiom. The woofers are not even close Axioms only measures 4.25" from outer surround going across. The Arx measures 5.25-5.5" across starting from outer surrounds, but both start that they are 5.25". The baskets aren't even in the same league the Axioms use stamp baskets and are tiny, the Arx use cast metal basket with a huge magnet, that looks like a small subwoofer. That could be why the Arx weights more because of that magnet who knows but I might take them apart and check everything out in more detail.

I've always liked Axioms and I still do but I think I like the Arx better.

DISCLAIMER: This is totally subjective, these are my opinions on which sounds better to my ears. I'm not "pushing" "promoting" or "recommending" either brand, I read the article and though I'd give my opinion on my speakers I have since I can do a direct comparison between two similar priced ID bookshelfs.

I didn't mean these are necessarily like my example- I was generalizing and was referring to vinyl laminate or in some cases, wood veneer vs lacqured or painted cabinetes. If a speaker has veneered substrate with real wood corners, making the cabinets can be a very quick process but if they have a finish with many coats with sanding/polishing, etc- it can take a long time. Also, since some finishes take a fair amount of time to cure/harden, that will delay shipping. Items that sit in the warehouse cost the company money, so they need to sell for more.

I went to one of my distributors for an open house and one of the vendors had a speaker that had been cut in half- across the width, to show a cross-section of the cabinet. I wasn't impressed, even though it's a name brand that has had quite a bit of success. While it's probably pretty strong, it wasn't the most inert cabinet I have knocked on even though the sides are curved.

[gene]

Is that like the Revel Salon2's 9-layer MDF, 2.5 inch thick cabinet wall?

The RBH cabinet construction goes well beyond anything that Revel is doing which doesn't imply its necessarily audibly better. The RBH approach is borderline insane IMO. The sub alone weighs in at over 200lbs. We shall see if all the bracing paid off. I loath the idea of moving those boxes around during the review and setup process.

[gene]

Anyone else receive Axioms newsletter this month?

no please post it here if you can.

Update, I found it:
October 2011

All I can say is WOW. More fun tomorrow on this

[GranteedEV]

The sub alone weighs in at over 200lbs.

So does my sub, and I feel it was a half-assed build job



Actually, from the pics of the RBH sub above, wouldn't it weigh like, way more than 400lbs? My sub uses 2 sheets of 3/4" MDF (plus a bit of oak ply and 1/8" MDF here and there). The RBH looks like 1" MDF and more of it, too.

[gene]

So does my sub, and I feel it was a half-assed build job



Actually, from the pics of the RBH sub above, wouldn't it weigh like, way more than 400lbs?

Nice job! Better not show Axiom that cabinet though else they will tell you it caused more audible distortion with the bracing

Perhaps the RBH cabinet weighs 200lbs without the drivers. I don't recall but we shall see.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The RBH cabinet construction goes well beyond anything that Revel is doing which doesn't imply its necessarily audibly better. The RBH approach is borderline insane IMO. The sub alone weighs in at over 200lbs. We shall see if all the bracing paid off. I loath the idea of moving those boxes around during the review and setup process.

Do you think even better than the 800D's cabinet?

From the Stereophile measurements, the 800D cabinet is virtually resonance free.

But as you say, cabinet alone doesn't guarantee better sound performance.

[gene]

Do you think even better than the 800D's cabinet?

From the Stereophile measurements, the 800D cabinet is virtually resonance free.

But as you say, cabinet alone doesn't guarantee better sound performance.

No way of determining that by just looking at the pics. I think the 800D is a fine piece of engineering but it goes against all the principles that Axiom preaches so what do I know?

In all seriousness, basic mechanics is when you add more bracing, you raise the resonance frequency but it also lowers its amplitude, NOT raises it. The science is pretty well established on this so the fact that its even being debated is quite odd.

The only conceivable way I can see it raising it is if Axiom didn't cross coupling the braces and simply added mass rather than rigidity. They are a lone wolf in this believe as all the major quality loudspeaker companies I know try to produce the most rigid and inert enclosure possible. Most DIY loudspeaker builders also do the same. Paradigm, Revel, B&W, RBH, Snell, etc all make very rigid enclosures but their speakers are often costly and heavy.