DIY Loudspeakers: Can You Build "Better" Than Professional Designs?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

There are also lots of professional cabinet builders out there that can build just about any box you want and give you far more choices on finish than commercial speaker companies.

I don't mean to take one example and stereotype to all cases, but look at the B&W 802D2. The MSRP is $15K. I paid $12K delivered. A lot of people can get $13K delivered if they are not as good as I am in buying things.

Curving & shaping & bracing 20 layers of beech, spraying 10 layers of lacquer, and hand sanding all that surface area to piano gloss will be way too much. The aftermarket diamond tweeters alone will cost $4K/pr. Perhaps soon you can get diamond 1" tweeter for $3K/pr, but that's still very expensive.

Film: The making of an 800 Series Diamond loud-speaker | Bowers & Wilkins | B&W speakers

The cost of doing it DIY would be a lot more than $12-13K when all is said and done.

 

[Nuance AH]

So you think the SS looks as pretty as the B&W 802D2 gloss black and Revel Salon2 and KEF 207/2?

As already mentioned, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so your question is moot. But I've gone on record plenty of times stating I don't like the look of the B&W 802 and 800 series. So yes, I'll take the look of the SoundScapes instead. To each their own when it comes to looks.

My point is not about TALENT, which I believe these gurus have even more talent than a lot of the B&M companies.

My point is only about money & resource. These extremely talented guys just don't have multimillion dollars to invest in machines & labor.

The SS12 is already like $19K w/ piano gloss & without diamond tweeters. Imagine the cost if Jim Salk had to put out that kind of money for all the machines & labor required plus diamond tweeters.

As far as subs, I have no doubt that Nathan's subs already look BETTER than the subs from the B&M. But subs are simpler than fancy curvy tower speakers.

So again, my point is not about talent; it's about money & resource only.

You don't need to have a revenue of one million annually to create something that both looks and sounds great. You should know that. That logic is flawed and has already been proven so by many talented DIYers and ID companies. Again, though, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so thanks for sharing your opinion.

I am surprised that the article did not touch on the fact that professional speaker companies have to make money on their speakers, while in the DIY community, profit is not really a factor at all. I would daresay a big chunk of the cost of a commercial speaker goes to overhead, shipping costs, profit, etc, middleman, etc. How many speakers are now being built off parts in China, or fully assembled in China by some kid making 5 cents an hour? Do you think there is pride in work there? No corners are being cut? With DIY, you can go with proven designs that can be measured and compared against commercial offerings. You can buy speaker kits such as the SEOS kits for about $200-400 per speaker, that IMHO, rival speakers that cost far more.

You can buy flatpack CNC cut boxes that look as good as most commercial speakers. You can also go to a professional cabinet maker if you so choose and have far more options available to you vs commercial.

I am taking my turn in the DIY subwoofer world as we speak, and quite frankly, there are DIY subs being built for the money that no commercial subwoofer can touch for the money. For about $1000 I am building four sealed 15" subwoofers and powering them with a pro amp that includes DSP and EQ. That cost also includes the Omnidsp mic I will be using with REW for measurement. Sure it took some research and reading and understanding how to use WinISD Pro, but with tools like Winisd Pro along with the DIY community, it has not been that hard.

After the subwoofers are done I really want to build some waveguide speakers to see how they compare to my far more expensive commercial speakers. Something tells me they will most likely be superior.

Sounds awesome, ack_bak. I look forward to your build results.

 

[Nuance AH]

I don't mean to take one example and stereotype to all cases, but look at the B&W 802D2. The MSRP is $15K. I paid $12K delivered. A lot of people can get $13K delivered if they are not as good as I am in buying things.

Curving & shaping & bracing 20 layers of beech, spraying 10 layers of lacquer, and hand sanding all that surface area to piano gloss will be way too much. The aftermarket diamond tweeters alone will cost $4K/pr. Perhaps soon you can get diamond 1" tweeter for $3K/pr, but that's still very expensive.

Film: The making of an 800 Series Diamond loud-speaker | Bowers & Wilkins | B&W speakers

The cost of doing it DIY would be a lot more than $12-13K when all is said and done.

You assume people actually care about the diamond tweeters and all the fluff and hype behind them. I'll take a tweeter that costs far less and sounds as good or better thank you very much.

 

[JerryLove]

I think his point is "Economy of scale".

 

[ack_bak]

I don't mean to take one example and stereotype to all cases, but look at the B&W 802D2. The MSRP is $15K. I paid $12K delivered. A lot of people can get $13K delivered if they are not as good as I am in buying things.

Curving & shaping & bracing 20 layers of beech, spraying 10 layers of lacquer, and hand sanding all that surface area to piano gloss will be way too much. The aftermarket diamond tweeters alone will cost $4K/pr. Perhaps soon you can get diamond 1" tweeter for $3K/pr, but that's still very expensive.

Film: The making of an 800 Series Diamond loud-speaker | Bowers & Wilkins | B&W speakers

The cost of doing it DIY would be a lot more than $12-13K when all is said and done.

I don't agree. Very talented DIY and cabinet makers out there that can build cabinets that rival the best of the commercial offerings out there for far, far, less money. Check this one out:

DIY...

 

[Nuance AH]

So once Dennis started selling speakers (and losing money ) his talents increased? He designed major parts of the Salk SoundScape that you think will best (or equal) even the Salon 2!

Hell, based on your definition, Dennis was still a DIYer back then..Philharmonic Audio was nonexistent!

Huh? Your interpretation skills need work. You can interpret what an ID business model, an actual registered company and a DIYer is all day long, but that doesn't mean that's how things work in the real world of business.

Assembly lines? Drivers built in-house? Anechoic chambers?

The only DIY/ID that I know of that truly has custom drivers, is Zaph!

Your point? Many companies have proven you don't need drivers built in house to produce good sound.

A DIYer doesn't need a staff, Nuance. They aren't a company. They build for themselves/friends. If they need to do many builds, like Dennis, perhaps they'll hire some help!

Ding ding ding - we have a winner! But yet you said most ID companies are just DIY for profit. Which is it?

If you're arguing an ID company can push out more speakers faster, you will hear no argument from me, but I don't see what "consistently manufacturer[ing] a line" has to do with skill.

Nothing. Who said it did? Go back and read what I wrote. I was discussing why your flawed logic that ID is nothing more than DIY for profit is 100% wrong. I think you're arguing something else that is completely off topic.

Plus what about Jeff? He is still a DIYer (under your definition)..did he not help create the SS12? Not only is he DIY...he is self-proclaimed DIY.

Who said anything about Jeff? He's a masterful designer, but I never claimed he owned and ran a company. Are you...ah, you know, on something today?

Dennis Murphy is a DIYer gone pro. His work is in hundreds, possible thousands of single loud speakers out in the world. He also has an actual established company called Philharmonic Audio, so he's no longer just a DIYer; he's now an industry professional/company. Once your design is used in hundreds of speakers for a real company it's no longer just DIY.

Now you know why I said this wasn't going anywhere - you make no sense at all.

 

[jinjuku]

This will put to rest that DIY can't compete aesthetically. I would put this up against the B&W any day, any time because I think the B&W 800 and Nautilus are ugly. And yes, it's my opinion

 

[JohnA]

For those who think DIY can't compare to "mainstream" speaker companies as far as fit and finish go all you need to do is look at the Speaker Project Gallery at Parts Express:

Speaker Project Gallery

Some Examples of those poorly finished DIY speakers:

 

[ack_bak]

This will put to rest that DIY can't compete aesthetically. I would put this up against the B&W any day, any time because I think the B&W 800 and Nautilus are ugly. And yes, it's my opinion

Yep, and I bet he did not spend $12-15K making these

Just a quick check and there are numerous cabinet companies in my area with CNC machines. I am sure they can build just about anything shape wise, and then you can buy a nice vaneer and wrap the speakers in. I have seen very nice examples of this.

 

[MJK]

So, the discussion appears to be all about looks. Can the DIYer build as nice a piece of furniture as the pro speaker companies? I have not seen much in the discussion about the performance and how DIY results compare to the manufacturer's products. I am a DIYer and can offer the following comments about the speakers I build, I have not had a commercial speaker in my main set-up in over 20 years.

1. My speaker builds look like crap compared to the manufacturer's products. You need to recognize that exotic looks take money that could have been invested in the sound, looks do not produce hi-fi. Looks appeal to the eyes not the ears.

2. I believe, and others who have visited and listened to my set-up over the years seem to agree, that my most recent designs are very competitive with commercial products. Like a commercial design, some like the sound of a design and some don't. At some level it becomes a matter of personal taste.

3. By going the DIY route I can design and build something that is specifically entended to work in my room (no compromises to fit all possible rooms in the market place), my taste in sound, and my associated equipment. I can modify and tweak to get exactly what I want.

4. I can build something out of the mainstream that most manufacturers in their right mind would not bring to market such as large dipole systems, TL speakers, or back/front loaded horn systems. You will not find these designs in many BM locations near you.

5. I can reverse engineer just about any manufacturer's design if they use commercially available drivers, provide external dimensions of the enclosure (even a picture will do), and even better if they allow Stereophile to publish details of the design and measurements in a review.

6. Designing speakers is not rocket science. IMO you need an engineering background, some software, a measurement set-up, all coupled with some understanding of what sounds good.

In conclusion, my builds are not the high quality furniture which is important to some people. I believe for a fraction of the cost I can build a competitive speaker system based on sound only, some will agree and some will disagree after hearing or reproducing what I have designed and built. I don't care so much about how it looks, I care only if I like the performance. My speakers are unique, not copies of other designs which is the fun in the hobby. I do not need to spend tens of thousands of dollars to get what I want and like in a speaker system. On the other hand I don't look to build the cheapest speaker possible which I think is the down fall of many DIYers. Spend the money, learn the theory, build and learn, enjoy the hobby.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think his point is "Economy of scale".

Apparently you & I are the only B&W 800s series owners here.

Perhaps people would have to also own Salon2, B&W 800s, KEF 207/2 or Blade, Focal Utopia, TAD R1, etc, to agree with me.

 

[Swerd]

jinjuku - thanks for posting Jeff Bagby's post about the state of DIY. He says it well.

The progress over the last 20 years with home computers and audio measurement and design tools has been significant. Today, a designer at home can out do what previously required large investment and a team of engineers. As many DIYers, including myself have learned, making a good design requires more than having access to the tools. There is a steep learning curve before you can use these tools well. Despite that, there have been more than a few successful speaker designs that any builder can make at home. It's like cooking at home by following an existing recipe, or being a chef who comes up with new recipes. I'm happier if I follow a good recipe.

I think B&W is a good example of the pressures that large commercial speaker manufacturers face. The 800 series speakers for the most part are excellent sounding, but high priced, speakers. The other B&W speaker lines are full of audio compromises made intentionally to produce speakers in lower price ranges. It's as if the 800 line was designed and built by the audio engineers with little or no input from the marketing people. And the other lines of speakers were designed by marketing people with limited input from the audio engineers.

The successful ID speaker makers have gotten around some of these commercial pressures by eliminating or minimizing marketing and distribution departments. Some makers with small staffs and small operating capital have produced speakers with sound quality that easily competes with the very best speakers made. And we owe it all to the amazing progress in speaker design, where DIYers often led the way.

 

[ack_bak]

I think his point is "Economy of scale".

Which is probably more than negated by overhead, profit, etc. B&W is not making and selling these speakers at cost How much of that price tag goes to pay towards labor, overhead, taxes, profit, etc? I would daresay a big chunk of that price tag.

I suspect the executives get paid quite nicely and the company has to focus on making money. That is not to say that they and other commercial companies do not make nice speakers that sound very good, but at the end of the day it is a business.

I really don't see the speaker business being any different from most businesses. Yes, they exist to bring a viable product to market, but in the end they are focused on revenue and profit.

 

[ratso]

IMO the ONLY advantage that i can think of that a large company has is proprietary drivers (and please note that just being made "in house" does not make them "better"). other than that no other arguments i have heard hold up. you give me anechoic chamber, i give you outdoor measurements. you give me expensive tooling machines, i give you hand craftsmanship. you give me huge bux diamond tweeters, i give you... huge bux diamond tweeters (you don't think DIY'ers have used expensive drivers before? i found in another thread that accuton sells a $2600 diamond tweeter, is that good enough for you all?).

 

[Nuance AH]

Perhaps people would have to also own Salon2, B&W 800s, KEF 207/2 or Blade, Focal Utopia, TAD R1, etc, to agree with me.

Nope. Owning a bunch of speakers has nothing to do with it; one only needs to hear them. You sure like to remind people of the physical possessions you own. Craving attention again I see. Me thinks the amount of speakers and gear you own outweighs your knowledge of the industry and how to properly use said possessions.

There have been some fine examples of quality looking DIY, and we also know there are examples of quality sounding designs too. Finding a combination of both is far more difficult IMO, and usually means we're in the presence of a truly talented DIYer, whom deserves a completely different classification than the "typical DIYer." The truly talented ones are likely responsible for many of the successful (big and small) speaker companies out there today (they likely started as just a DIYer). Some also do "pro bono" work or are contracted to design for other companies. In my opinion, once their designs are used for more than just a couple single speakers here and there, they are no longer simply a DIYer but a professional. Dennis Murphy and Jeff Bagby would fall into this category IMO, even though they may still consider themselves DIYers. DIY is at the root and core of most of these industry pros; after all, they had to start somewhere. But when they become as successful as someone like Dennis or Jeff, I believe they warrant a more respectful title other than a DIYer. Otherwise you could say B&W and Revel are just a bunch of DIYers. There's a reason they're called companies/manufacturers you know. YMMV and to each their own.

 

[gene]

IMO the ONLY advantage that i can think of that a large company has is proprietary drivers (and please note that just being made "in house" does not make them "better"). other than that no other arguments i have heard hold up. you give me anechoic chamber, i give you outdoor measurements. you give me expensive tooling machines, i give you hand craftsmanship. you give me huge bux diamond tweeters, i give you... huge bux diamond tweeters (you don't think DIY'ers have used expensive drivers before? i found in another thread that accuton sells a $2600 diamond tweeter, is that good enough for you all?).

the importance of anechoic chambers for loudspeaker measurements and development has been grossly overstated for a number of years. A good designer can use gated indoor measurements, nearfield and outdoor measurements to get an exact picture of loudspeaker performance. The only advantage an anechoic chamber has is convenience. I've written about this numerous times before.

As for diamond, an argument can be made that Beryllium is a preferred driver material since its lighter and has a better poisson ratio. Harman did a white paper about this but it was also part of marketing literature so it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Yet, many of the top modern loudspeaker designs that have become classics have employed pure beryllium drivers, not the gimmicky ones that layer aluminum or copper with a small fraction of beryllium.

 

[jinjuku]

you give me anechoic chamber, i give you outdoor measurements.

You beat me to it. Thx.

 

[Nuance AH]

the importance of anechoic chambers for loudspeaker measurements and development has been grossly overstated for a number of years. A good designer can use gated indoor measurements, nearfield and outdoor measurements to get an exact picture of loudspeaker performance. The only advantage an anechoic chamber has is convenience. I've written about this numerous times before.

As for diamond, an argument can be made that Beryllium is a preferred driver material since its lighter and has a better poisson ratio. Harman did a white paper about this but it was also part of marketing literature so it has to be taken with a grain of salt. Yet, many of the top modern loudspeaker designs that have become classics have employed pure beryllium drivers, not the gimmicky ones that layer aluminum or copper with a small fraction of beryllium.

Thank you for pointing both of these out, Gene. Personally, I prefer Beryllium over the diamond tweeters, but to each their own. Just because a manufacturer uses the most expensive components they can design or find doesn't mean it'll sound superior to everything else. In fact, many designers want to find the best sounding product for the lowest price, which I certainly respect as a consumer because it means less money out of my pocker for equal or better performance.

 

[gene]

The successful ID speaker makers have gotten around some of these commercial pressures by eliminating or minimizing marketing and distribution departments. Some makers with small staffs and small operating capital have produced speakers with sound quality that easily competes with the very best speakers made. And we owe it all to the amazing progress in speaker design, where DIYers often led the way.

The idea that ID always offers a better value to B&M is a myth. While some of the really good ID companies do operate on smaller margins by cutting out the middle man, some use the idea of ID to still charge the same or higher margins than B&M alternatives. This can be easily determined by examining the parts and build quality of the speakers in question. Which is why we take our time to take stuff apart, examine the internals and perform measurements to at least determine if the design is sound.

 

[gtpsuper24]

The idea that ID always offers a better value to B&M is a myth. While some of the really good ID companies do operate on smaller margins by cutting out the middle man, some use the idea of ID to still charge the same or higher margins than B&M alternatives. This can be easily determined by examining the parts and build quality of the speakers in question. Which is why we take our time to take stuff apart, examine the internals and perform measurements to at least determine if the design is sound.

Its very easy to tell apart the good ID that care about value, performance and quality versus those that only care about using the ID model to suck every last penny out of a product for profit.

I've also noticed many B&M brands, Paradigm and a few others that are becoming more and more inline with what ID offers. Paradigm Monitor line comes to mind. Nice basic finishes, good quality drivers and great sounding all for similar prices of IDs offerings.