Internet Direct Speaker Brand Comparison

[gtpsuper24]

I would have though Arx would have been listed. Gets great customer reviews, had positive feedback from the AVS GTG a few weeks ago, towers under $1k that offer XBL2 tech, planar tweeters, cast alloy basket woofers and midrange.

I checked out the Axiom options like in the article as well as some others. And noticed that Axiom charges $40 for a simple plastic dual binding post, Parts-Express charges $6.50 for the same thing. Plus another $35 for cast alloy baskets. For $1,500 a pair I would think these options should be standard, like the rest of the competition or majority of them.
Gold Plated Bi-Amp Terminal 260-304

Its strange how one company can offer a tower in the $1,500-1,800 range with cast baskets, how quality crossover components, piano gloss finish, fancy higher end dual binding posts, while another offers a tower for the same price but charges alot of extra money for those options.

I see a company doing that as one that is trying to suck every last penny of profit out of something, than offering a high quality slightly lower profit product.

 

[Steve81]

The popularity of the ID brands has skyrocketed, so unless they are new, a lousy brand or a no-name, their re-sale value has proven to be quite good (just look at Ascend and Salk).

I think the biggest problem here is that today's ID darling can very easily become tomorrow's ID dud. ID lives and breathes based on perceptions at forums such as AH, and realistically it doesn't take a whole lot for perceptions to shift. We don't even have to look at disasters like AV123 or eD; just think about where Axiom was ten years ago versus where it is today as one example. They were once a rising star with a plethora of positive reviews. Now they seem more like the red headed stepchild of the ID community. OTOH, Bose is a fine example of how forum opinions mean diddly for a B&M brand.

Then of course there is another advantage that brands like Klipsch or B&W have: history. If Klipsch died as a brand tomorrow, twenty years from now, there will still be people that know what a Klipschorn is and seek them out. If Ascend dies tomorrow, I don't think you can say that about the Sierra Tower.

 

[GranteedEV]

What I mean is, ID companies don't have the resources or overhead - for example, the big expensive machines required to bend 20 layers of beech into a curved shape.

Nor do the vast majority of B&M companies though. BTW look at the Vapor Cirrus.

The cheapest aftermarket diamond tweeters cost $4K/pr alone. The Piano high gloss is another $1500-$2000.

Why is ID inherently restricted to "aftermarket" drivers? Aperion, ARX, Ascend, EMP, SVS, have all developed proprietary drivers of their own. Harman is to use SB acoustic drivers in their new performs line.

But if we're going to play this game, show me a B&M speaker with a handmade curved translam cabinet, pleated prosound planar, and lambda 10" midrange. The Vapor Arcus White.

The reality is that you're using B&W's specific business decisions as some sort of frame of reference. They choose to mass produce a specific type of speaker and thus they have developed methods to reduce costs. But that is ALL they can sell. They don't have a wellspring of resources magically creating whatever they program a machine to create. They are also limited by what their equipment is built for. Your position seems to assume that ID = Custom. That is not necessarily the case. It simply depends on a company's business model.

It's a two street and you're confusing custom/aftermarket with ID because B&M can't support custom. Even the revel salons come in a grand total of two finishes - a 22k speaker!

Also RBH is both B&M and ID. What about them? Do your arguments apply to them? Where is NHT on this spectrum??

B&M does not mean big company, nor does ID mean small company.

BTW, seas is coming out with a new diamond tweeter of its own soon that won't be 4k/PR.

 

[Nuance AH]

I think the biggest problem here is that today's ID darling can very easily become tomorrow's ID dud. ID lives and breathes based on perceptions at forums such as AH, and realistically it doesn't take a whole lot for perceptions to shift. We don't even have to look at disasters like AV123 or eD; just think about where Axiom was ten years ago versus where it is today as one example. They were once a rising star with a plethora of positive reviews. Now they seem more like the red headed stepchild of the ID community. OTOH, Bose is a fine example of how forum opinions mean diddly for a B&M brand.

Then of course there is another advantage that brands like Klipsch or B&W have: history. If Klipsch died as a brand tomorrow, twenty years from now, there will still be people that know what a Klipschorn is and seek them out. If Ascend dies tomorrow, I don't think you can say that about the Sierra Tower.

This is a very good point, although we cannot accurately compare a company like Ascend to Klipsch because the former hasn't been around nearly as long. It really depends on how consistently well a company does, and your example of AV123 is a very good one. I do feel ID popularity has matured and grown a lot since AV123 was in it's prime, but no one knows what the future holds for ID, so it'll be an interesting ride.

 

[Steve81]

This is a very good point, although we cannot accurately compare a company like Ascend to Klipsch because the former hasn't been around nearly as long.

There's an understatement

Just for a little perspective, Steve Wozniak, the man behind the Apple I, wasn't even born when the first Klipschorns rolled out of Hope, AR.

 

[gtpsuper24]

I think the biggest problem here is that today's ID darling can very easily become tomorrow's ID dud. ID lives and breathes based on perceptions at forums such as AH, and realistically it doesn't take a whole lot for perceptions to shift. We don't even have to look at disasters like AV123 or eD; just think about where Axiom was ten years ago versus where it is today as one example. They were once a rising star with a plethora of positive reviews. Now they seem more like the red headed stepchild of the ID community. OTOH, Bose is a fine example of how forum opinions mean diddly for a B&M brand.

Yes look at Axiom they used to be well liked 10 years ago but when a company doesn't push the boundries of performance and price and stays with the same products than you can't expect them to be the forum darling anymore. That goes for any company, you have to innovate and stay ahead of the game and not lag behind with the same high profit low quality products. What if Paradigm didn't revise there Monitor line and stayed with the same original models and just continued to sell them as is without going through the various V1, V2,V3 ect... Do you still think people would walk into a store and buy them when they had the option fo purchasing a newer modern product?

Do you think Bose would be successful if they just stuck to there original models? And never developed the small cube packages and all in one packages? Probably not.

I guess what I'm saying is ID can be just as successful as B&M brands as long as they innovate and continue to push price/performance, along with great CS and high quality products.

 

[gene]

Here is a link to the program, seems like a nice option for people building a complete surround, but only have the cash for a 2 ch or 3 ch to start with...
Extender Purchase Plan

Thanks, I added the following:

Ascend Acoustics also offers an "Extender Purchase Plan" which allows customers to receive full discounted package pricing on all subsequent purchases placed within 45 days of receiving their new product purchases. This is a great way to try out a few products first and then complete your system at a discount shortly afterwards.

 

[Kali157]

I have been a long time Audioholics reader, but a new poster in these forums. Just wanted to say thanks for the article/list on ID companies.

 

[Kali157]

What I mean is, ID companies don't have the resources or overhead - for example, the big expensive machines required to bend 20 layers of beech into a curved shape.

Another example. If an ID company we're to build a curved bookshelf speaker with diamond tweeters and piano high gloss, would it cost $5K (B&W 805D2 piano black)?

The cheapest aftermarket diamond tweeters cost $4K/pr alone. The Piano high gloss is another $1500-$2000.

Again, this is strictly a debate of speaker production, not debating subjective SQ.

I'm saying I doubt Salk or any ID company can build an aftermarket B&W 802D2 w/ 10 layers of paint and piano high gloss, 20 layers of beech curved cabinet, round Marlan head, aftermarket diamond tweeters plus everything else for $15,000, as an example.

Again, I'm not saying ID isn't as great. Perhaps it's different priority. Different train of thought. Always Pros and Cons to everything.

Hmm, just wondering where you are getting these limitations from? So if a company does not have expensive equipment to make curved cabinets, then it is "not feasible" for them to find another company that can manufacture curved cabinets for them? Also, high gloss piano black is really a limitation for ID companies short of charging $1500-$2000 extra?

The Aperion Verus Grands (the second ID company listed) has BOTH curved cabinets and offers high gloss piano black. The Verus Grand Towers are $1898 shipped (that price isn't the finish alone )

 

[gene]

I would have though Arx would have been listed. Gets great customer reviews, had positive feedback from the AVS GTG a few weeks ago, towers under $1k that offer XBL2 tech, planar tweeters, cast alloy basket woofers and midrange.

I checked out the Axiom options like in the article as well as some others. And noticed that Axiom charges $40 for a simple plastic dual binding post, Parts-Express charges $6.50 for the same thing. Plus another $35 for cast alloy baskets. For $1,500 a pair I would think these options should be standard, like the rest of the competition or majority of them.
Gold Plated Bi-Amp Terminal 260-304

Its strange how one company can offer a tower in the $1,500-1,800 range with cast baskets, how quality crossover components, piano gloss finish, fancy higher end dual binding posts, while another offers a tower for the same price but charges alot of extra money for those options.

I see a company doing that as one that is trying to suck every last penny of profit out of something, than offering a high quality slightly lower profit product.

I contacted ARX a month or so ago about a review and got a kinda weird response about how they were banned from our forum, something I didn't even know happened. To be honest, I forgot to follow through but if we can get enough info on their shipping and return policies, we will surely add them as another online brand. Their products appear to offer solid construction and parts for a great value so they deserve to be there. thanks.

 

[NewHTbuyer]

They're not an ID company though - why would they be on this list?

Well, you order direct from them and they ship direct to you. You don't need to go to a dealer. Seems ID to me. Maybe they have dealers also, but that should not make a difference if you can order direct.

 

[jcl]

For Von Schweikert speakers if you do not have a local dealer you can order with a 90 day trial.

As others have mentioned some traditional B&M companies are offering ID options, so the lines are being blurred but I guess when the term ID is used it really refers to Internet Direct only.

KEF is dabbling in ID KEF Home Audio and Speakers. Free Shipping on premium speakers.
Klipsch is too, here's a link if you want to order some klipschorns - Klipschorn Floorstanding Speaker | Klipsch

and as mentioned earlier NHT does this as well.

Another that I don't think has been mentioned is Ohm, who dates back a few years http://www.ohmspeakers.com/

 

[gtpsuper24]

Velodyne seems to be doing this as well kind of a hybrid approach. Although I was expecting to see more competitive prices than what they are offering. When they annouced they were going more internet direct/online I though the prices would begin to reflect prices more inline with the current established subwoofer IDs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hmm, just wondering where you are getting these limitations from? So if a company does not have expensive equipment to make curved cabinets, then it is "not feasible" for them to find another company that can manufacture curved cabinets for them? Also, high gloss piano black is really a limitation for ID companies short of charging $1500-$2000 extra?

The Aperion Verus Grands (the second ID company listed) has BOTH curved cabinets and offers high gloss piano black. The Verus Grand Towers are $1898 shipped (that price isn't the finish alone )

What I'm talking about is a niche market.

I'm not talking about just ANY curved generic cabinets from China.

What I'm talking about is the fancy cabinets like the B&W 802D2, KEF 207/2, Revel Salon2, etc.

So if I must have the B&W 802D2, not any other curved cabinets, and I don't want them to be made in China, can Aperion, Salk, or any ID company make me a speaker that looks like the 802D2 or 207/2?

Who is going to build the (B&W 802D2) cabinet for them ?

I realize for most people, this isn't the case. But they do exist. And ID companies cannot accommodate this niche.

And I don't think the quality of the Aperion "piano gloss" is equivalent to the piano gloss of the B&W 802D2, KEF 207/2, Revel Salon2, Salk Soundscape, etc.

So for most folks, I suppose ID has no limitations. But for the niche market, ID has some limitations.

Okay, how about for speakers under $5K, ID has little limitations?

 

[cschang]

In regards to overhead, some things I have not seen mentioned in regards to B&M....

Marketing material - we have all seen glossies of their products. Very few ID companies have this type of marketing material...in fact, I can not recall any, but that is because it is all on the web.

Regional sales reps - Many B&M brands have reps in the field visiting shops or manning shows. Many of these same reps do training as well...some companies have separate trainers. Walk into any B&M audio shop, and you will likely see these laying around. Paradigm commissioned musical artists a few years ago and created CDs to demo...I think Focal and Usher have done the same.

Just the number of employees - This goes along with the point above on regional sales reps. Just look at RBH's for contacts: RBH Contact RBH Sound and that is just for contacts, for sure there are more people behind the scenes...like engineers. I admit though, some ID companies have more employees than others.

Then there's distribution for some B&M's which involved more middlemen.

 

[cschang]

For Von Schweikert speakers if you do not have a local dealer you can order with a 90 day trial.

As others have mentioned some traditional B&M companies are offering ID options, so the lines are being blurred but I guess when the term ID is used it really refers to Internet Direct only.

KEF is dabbling in ID KEF Home Audio and Speakers. Free Shipping on premium speakers.
Klipsch is too, here's a link if you want to order some klipschorns - Klipschorn Floorstanding Speaker | Klipsch

and as mentioned earlier NHT does this as well.

But there is no way they can offer "direct" pricing though. It would kill their retailers.

Von Schweikert used to have the VR-1 bookshelf speaker, and it was pretty highly regarded. It is now discontinued, but when VS was starting to head into Internet market, it sold online for $1100....the same it retailed for in the B&M shops. The cost of that speaker to the shops was $480.

 

[gene]

In regards to overhead, some things I have not seen mentioned in regards to B&M....

Marketing material - we have all seen glossies of their products. Very few ID companies have this type of marketing material...in fact, I can not recall any, but that is because it is all on the web.

Regional sales reps - Many B&M brands have reps in the field visiting shops or manning shows. Many of these same reps do training as well...some companies have separate trainers. Walk into any B&M audio shop, and you will likely see these laying around. Paradigm commissioned musical artists a few years ago and created CDs to demo...I think Focal and Usher have done the same.

Just the number of employees - This goes along with the point above on regional sales reps. Just look at RBH's for contacts: RBH Contact RBH Sound and that is just for contacts, for sure there are more people behind the scenes...like engineers. I admit though, some ID companies have more employees than others.

Then there's distribution for some B&M's which involved more middlemen.

Some ID companies have huge marketing budgets far exceeding the price of printed marketing literature from their B&M competitors.

The reality is some ID companies have very thin margins while others use the ID model to reward themselves with higher than usual profit margins.

Now that many B&M companies are also selling online, this opens up more competition.

The end result is the consumer has more great choices and it makes the market even more competitive.

 

[3db]

NTTAWWT

Glad to see a list like this though.

I'm scared to ask... What is NTTAWWT stand for?

 

[Steve81]

In regards to overhead, some things I have not seen mentioned in regards to B&M....

Of course it's worth keeping in mind that all those glossy ads, additional employees, and middlemen help B&M brands achieve greater sales and thus economies of scale.

 

[Steve81]

I'm scared to ask... What is NTTAWWT stand for?

Not that there's anything wrong with that!