I thought DENON was reliable?

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Were they shipped by UPS?


Note that majority of selling CE dealers do not ship by UPS as it is widely known they are very rough on handling products. UPS may be good for shipping chain saws and tooth paste but terrible for CE products.
Yes, all items I bought from Ecost were shipped via UPS.

I will not use UPS anymore.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Is that also the sequence in which you bought them?
If so, you can't rule out that eCost might have changed business philosophy/managers/owners and moved to a short term profit policy.

I have seen many companies determine mangers bonuses based on their bottom line profit for the past year. This encourages managers to sacrifice customer support in order to maximize short term profit. It is a poor strategy for a business that wants to be around 5-10 years later.
The shipping from Ecost to me has always been UPS. But I guess the bigger, heavier units are most affected - the more expensive units weigh like 50 - 60lbs.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
maybe using expedited shipping would eliminate the package passing through so many hands, and reduce the likelyhood that the unit will arive damaged.
 
M Code

M Code

Audioholic General
Yes, all items I bought from Ecost were shipped via UPS.

I will not use UPS anymore.
UPS has the cheapest rates for the big shippers..
Unfortunately they are gorillas for handling, in another business of ours we deal in classic cars and will never ship the unique 1 of a kind parts via UPS...
We have received boxes via UPS totally smashed and torn up, whenever that happens you should just reject the shipment..

If you accept it, UPS will slow pace and drag their feet for any claim inspection or settlement.. Even when when it is proven it their fault. The funny thing is that UPS uses an outside lab for getting products certified from the shipment protection viewpoint especially for dropping...
But even with their own package certification they still reject the submitted claims... :confused:


IMHO..
They just want to move the largest qtys of boxes, without any customer service. Note that we do use other carriers and have had issues but at least there is some cooperation/support to settle the claim, UPS blows you off tells one to go pound sand..

Hoping that you just give up and go away.. :eek:
Just my $0.02... ;)
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
We ship out a lot of product every day. Most go by UPS, but things like LCD's etc do not. They are the worst when handling fragile items. 3 day air helps too. It's not that much faster, but it gets things there in one piece.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
These also work really well!

http://www.uline.com/BL_1053/Shockwatch

We used to ship an identical product to four locations using UPS. One had a 80% damage rate while the others seldom ever had damage. Obviously handling practices were different enroute to the one location.
Once we started using the Shockwatch indicators, shipping damage was eliminated!
At $3 a pop these are cheap insurance and it amazes me that they are not used more often.

Also, the ups guys have mastered dropping a box so it lands on a flat side - no apparent damage to the packaging.
 
W

WillH

Audioholic Intern
The next time you see a UPS truck early in the delivery route with the back door open, take a look inside. You would see why so much of the big stuff is damaged. When they load the trucks up in the AM, they run out of space in the racks along the sides of the truck. Then they just pile up the stuff in the middle of the truck until it gets in there. During the day, the driver steps on and over all those boxes in the middle and they slide and bounce around under all that weight pile.

Of course, UPS is not the only one. They probably are all like that to some extent. I have seen FEDEX HOME drivers slap packages out the back of the door 10 feet to the road/driveway below. They also tend to throw the boxes on my porch (like a paperboy) instead of carefully placing them on the ground.

This to me is much like getting your food slopped down on your table when you have dinner. They don't care. They are just doing a job.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, perhaps Denon & ECost are not the sole blame for these DOA issues.

I wonder if Panasonic makes a TOUGHRECEIVER like their TOUGHBOOK laptops?:D

You can spray water on those TOUGHBOOK and drop them from 4 ft and they keep on ticking.:D
 
W

WillH

Audioholic Intern
I bought a used Parasound amp once that was shipped via UPS. When I got it the outside of the box looked fine but I heard a definite rattle on the inside - Something was rattling around inside the amp! I took a screwdriver and opened up the case and found 2 of the large capacitors had come completely loose from the main PCB. It apparently had been dropped on its side from a good distance for this to have happened. Had to return it to Parasound at a cost of several hundred dollars and UPS would not reimburse.

On the plus side, the amp is still working fine after almost 5 years now.:)
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Note that we do use other carriers and have had issues but at least there is some cooperation/support to settle the claim, UPS blows you off tells one to go pound sand..
UPS is just awful. I'm never using them again unless I'm forced to after my experience last summer:

When I ordered my subwoofer driver through exodusaudio, their cheapest option was UPS ground. Since the brokerage fees are pretty ridiculous, and they for some reason added some duties, I decided to go to my local Canadian customs office, and clear it through customs myself to avoid those fees and know that whatever I`m paying is going directly to the government.

Now, before doing this, the procedure is to get a manifest form from the shipping company and give it to Customs so they can clear the package.

I went to UPS, and they refused to give me any paperwork. This is a freakin piece of paper for my own package that I wanted. The people working there just wouldn`t cooperate and finally when I said "let me speak with a manager" they told me there was no manager there and that I should just call their utterly useless hotline.

I called the hotline and was redirected to their brokerages office - they basically told me that because I lived in Calgary, I couldn't do a customs clearance because the packaged entered the country through a different port. Being the pompous smart-*** that I am, I quoted the exact legal paperwork needed to make her shake in her shoes - there's no need for me to drive for 11 hours plus 11 back just to clear a subwoofer driver (i'm sure some audioholics might do so, though). She told me she would "remove the brokerage fees from the package information". This still didn't solve my problem with getting the paperwork that I needed. Fed up with dealing with UPS, I went straight to Canada Customs.

The lady at customs told me that there's no reason UPS shouldn't have released the manifest form. She looked in her secret agent book of numbers and found the office number of the UPS manager who "wasnt there" and told me to go call it from their phone over on the side. I made the call and UPS Manager picks up and I explain to her about how I need the manifest. She asks me why I would need that, and I tell her that when UPS came to my door the other day, they wanted 124 dollars in brokerage and customs, therefore I decided to self-clear my package. "So you just ran off to customs? (i guess she had caller ID on that phone of hers, because she seemed pretty angry about this, as I'm sure she's instructed to be)" And that... is how I finally got someone from UPS to fax a copy of a piece of paper for my package...

They - the government office - charged me 24 dollars even though it was clearly made in china and listed as such on their own paperwork etc. Oh, and the customs agent told me that UPS sent her the wrong manifist form - something telling her my package was still in vancouver whereas it was certainly in Calgary. She didn't give me a problem over it but told me that UPS shouldn't have sent that form and could get in trouble for it.

Then, when I got to UPS, they brought my package out and then gave me a bill. A 115 dollar bill. ~60 dollars brokerage fees, ~35 dollars "duties because it's made in china", and THEN the 24 that I had just paid in G.S.T. And the box for the driver was totally banged up (luckily it was well packaged)

So I showed them my B-15 form and the girl working there refused to acknowledge legal documentation stating that my package had been customs cleared. I was at UPS for half an hour arguing with her while she called multiple people (NOT the manager) who kept telling her to make me pay the brokerage. Finally she went inside to the manager, comes out 5 minutes later looking angry like she probably got her day ruined by said manager for a legal form she had no control over, and finally ripped up the brokerage bill.

On the other hand, Fed-Ex, USPS/Canada Post, and Purolator are companies I've used which have never given me these silly problems.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
UPS is just awful. I'm never using them again unless I'm forced to after my experience last summer:

When I ordered my subwoofer driver through exodusaudio, their cheapest option was UPS ground. Since the brokerage fees are pretty ridiculous, and they for some reason added some duties, I decided to go to my local Canadian customs office, and clear it through customs myself to avoid those fees and know that whatever I`m paying is going directly to the government.

Now, before doing this, the procedure is to get a manifest form from the shipping company and give it to Customs so they can clear the package.

I went to UPS, and they refused to give me any paperwork. This is a freakin piece of paper for my own package that I wanted. The people working there just wouldn`t cooperate and finally when I said "let me speak with a manager" they told me there was no manager there and that I should just call their utterly useless hotline.

I called the hotline and was redirected to their brokerages office - they basically told me that because I lived in Calgary, I couldn't do a customs clearance because the packaged entered the country through a different port. Being the pompous smart-*** that I am, I quoted the exact legal paperwork needed to make her shake in her shoes - there's no need for me to drive for 11 hours plus 11 back just to clear a subwoofer driver (i'm sure some audioholics might do so, though). She told me she would "remove the brokerage fees from the package information". This still didn't solve my problem with getting the paperwork that I needed. Fed up with dealing with UPS, I went straight to Canada Customs.

The lady at customs told me that there's no reason UPS shouldn't have released the manifest form. She looked in her secret agent book of numbers and found the office number of the UPS manager who "wasnt there" and told me to go call it from their phone over on the side. I made the call and UPS Manager picks up and I explain to her about how I need the manifest. She asks me why I would need that, and I tell her that when UPS came to my door the other day, they wanted 124 dollars in brokerage and customs, therefore I decided to self-clear my package. "So you just ran off to customs? (i guess she had caller ID on that phone of hers, because she seemed pretty angry about this, as I'm sure she's instructed to be)" And that... is how I finally got someone from UPS to fax a copy of a piece of paper for my package...

They - the government office - charged me 24 dollars even though it was clearly made in china and listed as such on their own paperwork etc. Oh, and the customs agent told me that UPS sent her the wrong manifist form - something telling her my package was still in vancouver whereas it was certainly in Calgary. She didn't give me a problem over it but told me that UPS shouldn't have sent that form and could get in trouble for it.

Then, when I got to UPS, they brought my package out and then gave me a bill. A 115 dollar bill. ~60 dollars brokerage fees, ~35 dollars "duties because it's made in china", and THEN the 24 that I had just paid in G.S.T. And the box for the driver was totally banged up (luckily it was well packaged)

So I showed them my B-15 form and the girl working there refused to acknowledge legal documentation stating that my package had been customs cleared. I was at UPS for half an hour arguing with her while she called multiple people (NOT the manager) who kept telling her to make me pay the brokerage. Finally she went inside to the manager, comes out 5 minutes later looking angry like she probably got her day ruined by said manager for a legal form she had no control over, and finally ripped up the brokerage bill.

On the other hand, Fed-Ex, USPS/Canada Post, and Purolator are companies I've used which have never given me these silly problems.

Wow.. It shouldn't have to be this difficult. Sorry to hear your grief. Maybe we North Americans can learn something from the Europeans..
 
JimmyTango

JimmyTango

Audioholic Intern
Okay, so I bought the Denon AVR-5308CI brand new from J&R Music World about 1.5 yrs ago - still under the 2 yr warranty period.

All of the sudden this weekend, HDMI Inputs 1-3 did not work at all!

But HDMI Inputs 4-6 still works.

It makes me wonder why anyone should buy a BRAND new so-called "reliable" brand from JAPAN and still require repair after only 1.5 yrs?

I could have bought a refurbished for 1/2 the price, and it could very well be just as reliable or unreliable.:eek:

Now I'm going to have to send it to the MAIN Repair Center in New Jersey, which will cost me about $65.:mad:
Being reliable does not mean infallible. I believe you have the two confused. As for a refurb, that is your choice and risk to go with. Though if that happened to your refurb after 1 1/2 years, it would not be under warranty, Denon refurbs have a 90 day warranty.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
"UPS is just awful. I'm never using them again unless I'm forced to after my experience last summer:

They - the government office - charged me 24 dollars even though it was clearly made in china and listed as such on their own paperwork etc."

What does UPS have to do with the government office? That's not UPS's fault, or problem.

"Oh, and the customs agent told me that UPS sent her the wrong manifist form - something telling her my package was still in vancouver whereas it was certainly in Calgary. She didn't give me a problem over it but told me that UPS shouldn't have sent that form and could get in trouble for it."

That's not your problem. If UPS sent the wrong form and could get in trouble, why would you care? This could all be due to an employee who didn't do their job right, but in my experience, it's not a global UPS issue. I can't think of any shipping experience that was so bad that I wouldn't use UPS. OTOH, I haven't shipped to/ received anything directly from a foreign country, either.

Then, when I got to UPS, they brought my package out and then gave me a bill. A 115 dollar bill. ~60 dollars brokerage fees, ~35 dollars "duties because it's made in china", and THEN the 24 that I had just paid in G.S.T. And the box for the driver was totally banged up (luckily it was well packaged)[/QUOTE]

What does the brokerage fee cover? Duties aren't the shipper's fault, it's government to government. Also, the banged up box may have been damaged long before the driver got it.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
How did a thread about Denon's reliability become a discussion about bad shippers? Let's stay on topic.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
That's not your problem. If UPS sent the wrong form and could get in trouble, why would you care? This could all be due to an employee who didn't do their job right, but in my experience, it's not a global UPS issue. I can't think of any shipping experience that was so bad that I wouldn't use UPS. OTOH, I haven't shipped to/ received anything directly from a foreign country, either.
UPS' business model is that they have very very cheap and heavily marketed shipping for united states vendors to the point where they have a pseudo monopoly on the courier industry in a sense. However that's specifically for the U.S.A. As soon as their packages leave that country it's a whole nother ball game, try and read the UPS brokerage horror stories online - car aficionados in particular find themselves driving down to USA border storages just so they don't get slapped with a brokerage fee that cost more than the actual value of the part they just ordered.

UPS ramps up prices for people receiving in other countries, something the receivers have no control over. The problem is, many online vendors simply don't use other shipping methods. USPS doesn't insure packages leaving the country (which makes sense mind you, since at that point it's a different courier's responsibility) so often times, UPS is "the only" option. However UPS doesn't lose customers in this respect because it doesn't affect Americans, and it's Americans who are using UPS to send.

What does the brokerage fee cover? Duties aren't the shipper's fault, it's government to government. Also, the banged up box may have been damaged long before the driver got it.
Re: Box banged up - I don't know where it got banged up, but it was all UPS either way.

Like I said, I went to the customs office to pay my duties mysel because duties do not need to be the shipper's problem. I gave customs the 24 dollars in duties and taxes that they asked me to pay them. Then I go to UPS and they want me to

1) Pay them the taxes I just paid
2) Pay them a $35 duty that I didn't just pay because the customs office examined the information about the product and concluded there was no duty on it.
3) Pay them a ~55-60 dollar fee so that they can go to customs for me as my customs broker and "take care of business" for me. Even though I was perfectly fine with doing this myself, they were virtually trying to force me to use them as a broker at every stage of the game.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
How did a thread about Denon's reliability become a discussion about bad shippers? Let's stay on topic.
One of the units which ADTG received was DOA. Thus, the question is whether Denon actually shipped out a non-functioning unit vs. it being damaged in transit.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
One of the units which ADTG received was DOA. Thus, the question is whether Denon actually shipped out a non-functioning unit vs. it being damaged in transit.
Make that THREE units DOA!:eek:

AVP-A1HDCI

AVR-4308CI

AVR-4810CI

I'm still pissed off that my AVR-5308CI (bought brand new from J&R, shipped via FedEx) had 3 defective HDMI inputs after 1.5 yrs.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Being reliable does not mean infallible. I believe you have the two confused.
What?

You mean I can't expect it to work even after I pour water on it, throw it on the ground and stomp on it?:eek:

Yeah, I should not physically abuse my $5,500 component. What was I thinking?:rolleyes:
 

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