B&W Nautilus vs Sonus Faber Cremonas

[ParadigmDawg]

I kind of forgot what we were talking about but get the Sonus Faber Cremonas...

 

[randyb]

Yes we can test active loudspeaker systems - like the JBL LSR and its competitors - in our Multichannel Lab. That's how I would test the Orions against our best speakers and competitors.



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I would like to see a test of Linkwitz Orions vs. JBL LSR6328's

 

[Nuance AH]

No, I have B&W 802N's. (speaker B in this graph ).

Hilarious!

Seriously, I have Infinity Intermezzo 4.1T (speaker I) for front channels, and Infinity Prelude Towers w/o subs (Speaker P ) for surrounds.

For me, the Intermezzo's were a good value because they were 1/2 the price of the Preludes and were rated only 0.5 preference rating lower than the Preludes in controlled double-blind tests.

Thanks for sharing that. It sounds like you have a very, very nice system. I bet your room is nothing short of awesome too. One day I'll have a custom room built and use your and Toole's work as a guideline.

So what was this thread originally about again?

 

[Nuance AH]

I would like to see a test of Linkwitz Orions vs. JBL LSR6328's

+1. Now that would be something (maybe add in Geddes' Summas as well). I volunteer Sean's Harman listening room for measuring and testing and your room for "consumer" auditions. HAHA!

 

[tonmeister]

+1. Now that would be something (maybe add in Geddes' Summas as well). I volunteer Sean's Harman listening room for measuring and testing and your room for "consumer" auditions. HAHA!

We just had the Multichannel Listening Lab's speaker shuffler serviced yesterday and it's finely tuned and ready for the Orions and Summas. Please send them my way!

 

[Matt34]

+1. Now that would be something (maybe add in Geddes' Summas as well). I volunteer Sean's Harman listening room for measuring and testing and your room for "consumer" auditions. HAHA!

We just had the Multichannel Listening Lab's speaker shuffler serviced yesterday and it's finely tuned and ready for the Orions and Summas. Please send them my way!

View attachment 8231

Doesn't Randyb have the Summas? That's one down, it's not like he'll miss them with the collection of speakers he is known to have.

 

[randyb]

Doesn't Randyb have the Summas? That's one down, it's not like he'll miss them with the collection of speakers he is known to have.

Actually, it is Earl's Abbeys (which are close to the Summas) and I would send them if Sean wanted to test them, BUT Earl is an AES member and Sean is and they are ALMA members and......I just don't want to start any kind of wars one way or the other.

P.S. Of course, if it was Speaker A against B etc. I would send those and maybe some Salks and...well I am always open to a PM.

P.P.S. I have been selling speakers. Despite Sean giving me excellent advice for a blind speaker test, I have abandoned the idea mainly because I don't have his resources like Harmon and I didn't want to do it if it wasn''t going to be done right. I do still have Earl's Abbey's (and a whole "Earl" surround system -3 Abbeys-4 Harpers) as well as Jim' Salk's HT-3's (and a Salk surround system 2 HT3 and 5 HT-1s). Chris (WmAX) is still, (did I say still?) working on speakers for me and I really would like to get JBL Pro LSR 6328s to test as the 6325's are terrific (nearfield or not). And yes, I am a little nuts, but you know you live and then you die...might as well enjoy it.

 

[theshade]

For me, the Intermezzo's were a good value because they were 1/2 the price of the Preludes and were rated only 0.5 preference rating lower than the Preludes in controlled double-blind tests.

Is it possible to know preference ratings among the harman brand loudspeakers in controlled double-blind tests so it would be easier to choose where we set our own point of diminishing returns based on our different budgets.

Additionally, I have a question regarding the jbl lsr 4300 series. I have searched the net and looked at the manual. I cant seem to find how to integrate another sub with them using its room mode correction software. Wouldnt the room mode correction of the mains not work optimally if I use other subs (for example an adire audio and svs sub) and they couldnt be controlled by the software? Or is it imperative to also purchase two lsr4312sp for the system to work optimally?

 

[tonedeaf]

I kind of forgot what we were talking about but get the Sonus Faber Cremonas...

I believe a couple of posts contained in this thread dealt with nuclear submarines and quantum physics

 

[Warpdrv]

And yes, I am a little nuts, but you know you live and then you die...might as well enjoy it.

My sentiments exactly....

2 peas in a pod....

 

[tonmeister]

Is it possible to know preference ratings among the harman brand loudspeakers in controlled double-blind tests so it would be easier to choose where we set our own point of diminishing returns based on our different budgets.

I would have to convince our marketing department to release this information. In addition, we would have to include a specification that captures the maximum SPL output capability for each product so you know whether or not the loudspeaker meets your application requirements.

At the present time, I am trying to convince marketing to publish the comprehensive anechoic loudspeaker measurements that I've shown you, and which CEA and CEDIA are considering to adopt. JBL Pro already publishes these measurements for their products.

From these measurements, you could pretty well tell when you've hit the point of diminishing returns in terms of sound quality -- max SPL capability notwithstanding. I have a mathematical model that will predict the loudspeaker preference rating based on those measurements with 86% accuracy. For example, if you compare speaker curves P and I, they hit very similar performance targets in terms of on-axis, listening window, early reflections, sound power response, hence the preference ratings are within 0.5 rating.

Additionally, I have a question regarding the jbl lsr 4300 series. I have searched the net and looked at the manual. I cant seem to find how to integrate another sub with them using its room mode correction software. Wouldnt the room mode correction of the mains not work optimally if I use other subs (for example an adire audio and svs sub) and they couldnt be controlled by the software? Or is it imperative to also purchase two lsr4312sp for the system to work optimally?

I believe the JBL LSR 4300 series room correction wasn't specifically designed to take advantage of multiple subs canceling room modes via acoustical constructive interference, like how the Sound Field Management (SFM) option works in the JBL Synthesis Room Correction solution. However,the LSR 4300 manual says it supports 2 subs. So I would presume there is a way of dealing with them via the RMC software, but it looks like you need to use the 4300 series subs to do so. Let me look into this more.

 

[randyb]

I know this is not a JBL thread but with Sean here I thought I would relate an interesting question I had today. I was asked about JBL spekaers because I am thought of as knowledgeable in the field (haha sucker born every minute), but anyway this firiend ask me about JBL speakers and I said I know JBL pro are great speakers but I couldn't answer on the consumer line. However, I added that I know they have great research at Harmon. That brought other friends questions. I do think this is relevant because there are SO MANY speaker companies that we really need some magazine like Consumer Reports or some other consumer magazine to do a better job. So much BS and so little facts.

So the question to other Audiohoiics members here how do you answer questions by friends for recommendations...how much science and how much is it related to what you own? I find it very hard to "recommend" without caveats?

So Sean, what do you say when someone is ready to buy Bose?

 

[tonmeister]

I do think this is relevant because there are SO MANY speaker companies that we really need some magazine like Consumer Reports or some other consumer magazine to do a better job. So much BS and so little facts.

So the question to other Audiohoiics members here how do you answer questions by friends for recommendations...how much science and how much is it related to what you own? I find it very hard to "recommend" without caveats?

So Sean, what do you say when someone is ready to buy Bose?

Well, both the magazines and the industry could do a better job to provide consumers with meaningful data on the performance of the loudspeaker. I've blogged about this before. If the loudspeaker industry adopted meaningful perceptually relevant loudspeaker specifications, then consumers could easily pick out the excellent sounding loudspeakers from the mediocre ones.

With such standards in place, loudspeaker companies and audio magazines alike would be forced to be accountable when their advertisements/marketing spins and magazines reviews were incongruent with the hard facts based on these standard performance specifications. Perhaps, there would be little need for loudspeaker reviews in magazines other than to describe its looks, features, and other factors that have little to do with sound quality.

If someone asked me for a recommendation I would say, "simply pick the loudspeaker that sounds the best based on these perceptually relevant specifications that you can afford". Of course, other factors such as industrial design, reliability, warranty, customer service,etc come into play as well.

 

[randyb]

Well, both the magazines and the industry could do a better job to provide consumers with meaningful data on the performance of the loudspeaker. I've blogged about this before. If the loudspeaker industry adopted meaningful loudspeaker specifications consumers could easily pick out the excellent sounding loudspeakers from the mediocre ones.

With such standards in place, loudspeaker companies and audio magazines alike would be more accountable when their advertisements/marketing spins and magazines reviews are incongruent with its performance based on scientific facts.

If someone asked me for a recommendation I would point them to these perceptually relevant specifications and say "pick the one that sounds the best that you can afford" assuming that sound quality matters to them.

I agree and think you are a "shining light". Is there anything we consumers and enthusiasts can do? We know you and others are good guys, but you are scientists and it takes consumers to change things IMO.

 

[tonmeister]

I agree and think you are a "shining light". Is there anything we consumers and enthusiasts can do? We know you and others are good guys, but you are scientists and it takes consumers to change things IMO.

Yes, you can put pressure on audio magazines, audio trade associations (AES, CEDIA,CEA), and loudspeaker companies to provide meaningful loudspeaker specifications rather than the useless misleading drivel they currently provide. Write to the CEO's of these organizations and tell them you are fed up with them not providing their customers better specifications when the science already exists to deliver them today.

Support the companies and magazines that do provide perceptually meaningful loudspeaker specifications. This will force the rest of the industry to pull up their socks and be accountable for the quality of their products, or else face extinction.

In the end, this will serve the best interests of consumers because they will know exactly what they are purchasing.

 

[Nuance AH]

So the question to other Audiohoiics members here how do you answer questions by friends for recommendations...how much science and how much is it related to what you own? I find it very hard to "recommend" without caveats?

So Sean, what do you say when someone is ready to buy Bose?

It is difficult to get over our own biases. Naturally I'd want to recommend what I own, but I always insist that person audition everything they can, including what I own. If they are close friends, I take them to all the various local shops and have them audition everything in their price range, and even a little above it. I try my best not to comment on a design or speaker's SQ, as not to influence that person's opinion; something that is not easy to do IMO. Lastly, if they're interested in hearing my system I'll bring them back here for the final audition of the day (sometimes its the first audition depending on their request). Its not "perfect" by any means; a title only blind, level matched conditions are worthy of. Even then, the probably won't be in their own room, so...

The main problem I most often run into is people are influenced by looks and price. If the dealers we visited simply placed an acoustically transparent but visually opaque cloth from wall to wall, I have a feeling consumers/my friends would wind up spending less than the salesman pushes, and select a speaker that they may not have thought about listening to originally (like the consumer Infinity or JBL stuff, which for some reason people seem to immediately shrug off, at least in my experience). Ask anyone "new" to this hobby if they'd rather own the B&W 703 (horrible speaker to my ears) or the Infinity Primus 362 based on looks; I think you know what the answer would be. However, under blind listening conditions I can pretty much guarantee some of those opinions would change. This, unfortunately, is something I believe will never be adopted by dealers/B&M's, because their greed influences their recommendations. IE, the higher the price of the sale, the more revenue they make. So why are they going to recommend a $500 speaker when they may be able to sell a $5000 one? Greed is our enemy as well.

Just my $0.02

 

[Nuance AH]

Yes, you can put pressure on audio magazines, audio trade associations (AES, CEDIA,CEA), and loudspeaker companies to provide meaningful loudspeaker specifications rather than the useless misleading drivel they currently provide. Write to the CEO's of these organizations and tell them you are fed up with them not providing their customers better specifications when the science already exists to deliver them today.

Support the companies and magazines that do provide perceptually meaningful loudspeaker specifications. This will force the rest of the industry to pull up their socks and be accountable for the quality of their products, or else face extinction.

In the end, this will serve the best interests of consumers because they will know exactly what they are purchasing.

This is something I have been doing and will continue to do, but most of the time I feel like the CEO's don't care and never will. Perhaps I am just being pessimistic.

Which magazines and companies do provide meaningful loudspeaker specifications? I know Harman does, but I cannot think of too many others off the top of my head, especially magazines. I don't trust most of them farther than I can throw them.

 

[highfigh]

I know this is not a JBL thread but with Sean here I thought I would relate an interesting question I had today. I was asked about JBL spekaers because I am thought of as knowledgeable in the field (haha sucker born every minute), but anyway this firiend ask me about JBL speakers and I said I know JBL pro are great speakers but I couldn't answer on the consumer line. However, I added that I know they have great research at Harmon. That brought other friends questions. I do think this is relevant because there are SO MANY speaker companies that we really need some magazine like Consumer Reports or some other consumer magazine to do a better job. So much BS and so little facts.

So the question to other Audiohoiics members here how do you answer questions by friends for recommendations...how much science and how much is it related to what you own? I find it very hard to "recommend" without caveats?

So Sean, what do you say when someone is ready to buy Bose?

Consumer Report is OK for appliances and small electronics but I would never trust them for a rating on anything good when it comes to audio equipment. They used to love all kinds of equipment that was considered to be bad and sometimes really bad when reliability was concerned. This site has shown more good info about audio in one year than CR has in their history, IMO. Stick to IEEE, EIA NAB and pro specs if you want to learn what's important. Once you know that stuff, you'll understand any important terminology or data regarding consumer gear and read through the BS.

 

[highfigh]

Yes, you can put pressure on audio magazines, audio trade associations (AES, CEDIA,CEA), and loudspeaker companies to provide meaningful loudspeaker specifications rather than the useless misleading drivel they currently provide. Write to the CEO's of these organizations and tell them you are fed up with them not providing their customers better specifications when the science already exists to deliver them today.

Support the companies and magazines that do provide perceptually meaningful loudspeaker specifications. This will force the rest of the industry to pull up their socks and be accountable for the quality of their products, or else face extinction.

In the end, this will serve the best interests of consumers because they will know exactly what they are purchasing.

Why not boycott the manufacturers that refuse to disclose the information? Once their sales drop off enough, they'll get the message, especially if they're a publicly traded company

 

[riker1384]

Which magazines and companies do provide meaningful loudspeaker specifications?

Stereophile has pretty good measurements, although they neglect to make distortion measurements and according to Sean their low-frequency measurements might be a little off ue to lack of an anechoic chamber. There's also Soundstage magazine which has a website; I don't know if they also have a print magazine. They do measure distortion. I think the only thing they don't do that Stereophile does it to print waterfall plots, even though with an anechoic chamber they should be able to make better ones that go into lower frequencies than Stereophile.

(Here's a directory of Soundstage measurements: http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/ Go to the main website for the text reviews.)