Amp for B&W 803s

[WmAx]

When you get the P3500S, be sure to check the back switch settings. I think they come with YS Speaker processing enabled - you need to set that to OFF as well as make sure the filters are set to off so you use it as a straight flat response amplifier.

-Chris

 

[scorpious]

Chris could you explain this to me, "you have a sensitive amp or efficient speakers the single-ended connections might be a better option for you" I dont get it, does the Yamaha fall under sensitive amp category?!.

Also http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-779769.html

this topic talks about preAmps being balanced where they said most of the Amps are balanced at input and output and not at circuit level, except for few like mark levinson etc... which are ofcourse out of my price range.

 

[WmAx]

Chris could you explain this to me, "you have a sensitive amp or efficient speakers the single-ended connections might be a better option for you" I dont get it, does the Yamaha fall under sensitive amp category?!.

The statement you pasted makes it sound like the balanced outputs are the noisy ones on that pre-amp. The Yamaha is NOT sensitive. That is why it needs pro audio level balanced outputs to feed it. BTW, you can also buy a small converter box that converts unbalanced to pro level balanced. But one of teh quality you would want would add a couple of hundred dollars to the cost of the project. However, if you do find a great deal on a pre-amp that has only unbalanced RCA outputs, then this may still be a viable solution if you don't want to use a DCX because of a 'purist' perspective?

Also http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/archive/index.php/t-779769.html

this topic talks about preAmps being balanced where they said most of the Amps are balanced at input and output and not at circuit level, except for few like mark levinson etc... which are ofcourse out of my price range.

Okay, the only thing that matter is balanced circuits on the output and inputs. Balanced circuitry INSIDE the component is not needed or desired for any technical reason. It's an audiophile feature that is wasteful/more costly. Internally, if a component is properly designed, no interference of any substantial amount occurs. In fact, you don't need balanced even for interface of most electronics. Balanced is really only useful in pro use due to the long cable runs and multitude of gear that can cause interference with each other. The only reason we need balance in this case is because pro balanced has the required high voltage output to feed the pro audio amplifiers and keep their gain levels turned low to avoid noise/hiss that may otherwise occur if trying to feed them with the unbalanced low voltage RCA pre-amp outs. The pro amps simply were not intended to be fed with consumer unbalanced lines.

-Chris

 

[scorpious]

Thank you very much Chris.

Dont you think the P2500 for $100 less than P3500 is good enuf for the 803's? or is there anything magical in the P3500s that its worth for?

 

[fmw]

Thank you very much Chris.

Dont you think the P2500 for $100 less than P3500 is good enuf for the 803's? or is there anything magical in the P3500s that its worth for?

Nothing at all other 100 watts per channel. The 2500S has more power than a home theater can use anyway. I happen to own a 3500S. I don't use it in a home theater, however. I use it in a public address system that has to fill auditorium sized venues with soud. It would be truly ridiculous in family room. So would the 2500S for that matter. The 2500S will do just fine.

 

[mike_wassell]

I would go for the Parasound preamp and amp. I know what the specifications say but I personally don't believe the Yamaha is in the same class at the 803s. Look at the reviews of these components. Yamaha is considered middle of the line. Parasound and B&W 803 are considered audiophile components. I have used both Yamaha and Parasound amps.

Mike

 

[WmAx]

I would go for the Parasound preamp and amp. I know what the specifications say but I personally don't believe the Yamaha is in the same class at the 803s. Look at the reviews of these components. Yamaha is considered middle of the line. Parasound and B&W 803 are considered audiophile components.

Mike

That's just an elitist attitude.... I'm not saying you are elitist btw.... I'm just pointing out the common attitude and views that spawn from the audiophile crowd because they blabber about so much misinformation. I used to be the same way, and I dumped all of my high end gear(well, I have a nice turn table) such as amps and pre-amps, sources, etc. after I realized my error, and started doing double blinded randomized testing and studying human perceptual research years ago. Now I use 3 Yamaha amps in my man 2 channel sound system, which btw, I seriously doubt many high end systems can compare to in realistic sounding sound reproduction, regardless of cost. I doubt that even very few high dollar high end systems can compete with my computer's sound system, even. Not a 'high end' amp in site there either... more pro amp goodness. But, my gear is most unusual in characteristic qualities that are critical for perceived sound quality to human hearing, and I set up the acoustics for no compromise performance. The speakers, source recording and the room acoustics are by far the biggest contributors to sound quality. The Yamaha amps are superb quality - low noise floor, low distortion, very high construction quality and very high power potential -- yet relatively low in cost.

In fact, the 803S are no where near the 'class' of the Yamaha amp, if you want to be technical. The amp has such little coloration that it's not going to be audible. The speakers connected to it on the other hand produce huge levels in comparison, of linear distortion(time, frequency) and non-linear distortion(THD, IMD, etc.).

-Chris

 

[scorpious]

I would go for the Parasound preamp and amp. I know what the specifications say but I personally don't believe the Yamaha is in the same class at the 803s. Look at the reviews of these components. Yamaha is considered middle of the line. Parasound and B&W 803 are considered audiophile components. I have used both Yamaha and Parasound amps.
Mike

Thank you MIke.

Chris. That was a dedicated answer I was in search of, which i was going to ask at some point in time. Thank you. I always wondered how much superior performance do these thousands of dollar equipments offer over the smaller, cheaper counterparts. why spend over 10K on a amp that offers perhaps just a slight level of improvement, only people with seriously good hearing can decipher. Is it the same reason like why a person would spend over a $1mil on a supercar, vs a $200k sports car? and the same goes with the person driving them, a normal everday driver or a proff race car driver.

I still havent plunged into this audiophile thinking atitude, and perhaps i wouldnt want to, unless i have nothing else to do, and a millionaire, and dont care abt the money.


Ashish

 

[WmAx]

Chris. That was a dedicated answer I was in search of, which i was going to ask at some point in time. Thank you. I always wondered how much superior performance do these thousands of dollar equipments offer over the smaller, cheaper counterparts. why spend over 10K on a amp that offers perhaps just a slight level of improvement, only people with seriously good hearing can decipher.

I'll tell you this: if there was even a TINY bit of audible improvement, I would still have a stack of McIntosh amps.... but that simply is not the case. There is no audible reduction in quality from using the non-exotic amplifiers, or I would not use them, simple as that. I am fanatical about sound quality - far more than most audiophiles that like to pretend they are all about the sound with mpingo discs, tice clocks and shatki stones and spending high amounts of money on things that just don't do a darn thing that is really an audible improvement - I see those are easy outs for the gullible and/or mis informed. The only thing high dollar amps are good for is cosmetic decoration - and I do support that if you have the spare money. Just don't lose sight of the real differences as opposed to imagined ones. On the other hand, I put years and thousands or hours of study, research and careful experimentation into learning how to get the best quality sound.

-Chris

 

[mike_wassell]

I have a Yamaha MX-1 200w x 2 amp @ 8 Ohms. It is in like new condition. I would like to sell it. If interested PM me and we can discuss a price.

Mike

 

[WoodHack]

OP:
If I were you, I would get a nice pre-amp with balanced outputs, or one without and use a balanced line convertor transformer, and feed a high quality high power pro amp like the Yamaha P3500S. Extremely high build quality and performance with high power.
-Chris

Ok, I've been struggling for 3 hours now trying to figure out how to ask my questions.

This thread caught my attention for two reasons. 1) I am very interested in figuring out what I need to build a home theater surround system. 2) Chris' input on amps. Very recently, Chris most graciously advised me on how to construct B&W CM7 speaker cases. No, I have not built them yet, been working weekends, wife factor, waiting on how April tax season plays out. Audio wise, I may not be the sharpest pencil, but I can eventually get a feel on who's full of BS and who is the sharp pencil. Chris is sharp at audio!

A little background on where I am coming from. I can't afford good commercial speakers, so I will build them. I plan on building up to at least a 5.1 surround setup. The B&W CM7 speakers will be my starting point, the fronts. After building the fronts it's a crap shoot whether, center, rears, or sub speakers are next in line to be built. But, I will definitely be looking to purchase power for a 5.1 system, after building the fronts. Deciding on a particular power unit, which I figured would be a piece of cake, is driving me nuts! Marantz SR8002, NAD, Integra, Outlaw Model 1070 A/V Receiver, Outlaw Model 7125 7-channel Amplifier, Emotiva XPA-5, Emotiva UP7, Sunfire TGA5200, Sunfire Cinema Grand 200, Rotel RSX-1550, day after day I am flip-flopping and willing to fight to the death, over my latest revelation of an audio power panacea... Talking with the expert Hi-End AV guy, plays out like this, hummm you can't afford that, pause, nor that, ahhh, I got it (he says), Lexicon. I start to get excited until I hear $3,000. The above list is just the tip of the iceberg.

I had read this thread in the past, but eliminated it; because, I had to rush off to the Roman Coliseum and defend my Marantz SR8002's latest honor. Or was it the Emotiva XPA-5? I tell ya this stuff is painful. I found my way back to this thread when I eliminated A/V receivers and discovered Chris' Yamaha P2500S opinion. I went to check them out at a local store only to find they can order them. Then the kid starts saying why do you want those things? The QSC GSX 3 is a lot cheaper and better. He becomes aware I am interested in 5.1 setup and quickly reassesses with the superior EV PA 4150L, which is only 4 channels (100 watts per channel into 8ohms), $699.

I like the concept of using Yamaha P2500S amps for a 5.1 surround system.
    (Q1) Is this viable for a 5.1 system?
It appears to me I would have to buy three Yamaha P2500S amps to achieve a 5.1 setup.
   (Q2) Is this true?
I believe, one amp for the fronts, another for the rears, and one for the center and the sub (assuming sub does not contain internal amp).
   (Q3) Is this a weird way of doing it, mainly in regards to center channel and sub devoted to an amp?
   (Q4) Can an Audio/Video Processor be hooked up to three Yamaha P2500S amps?
Buying three Yamaha P2500S amps is getting costly, for me, at $400 each. If Chris says these are great value to wattage amps, I believe his assessment. However, $1200 for the three still leaves me needing to purchase a Audio/Video Processor not to mention speaker drivers for all 5.1 speaker setup.

   (Q5) If I were to incorporate one Yamaha P2500S amp, what options do I have in order to achieve 5.1 surround sound setup?
   (Q6) If I were to incorporate two Yamaha P2500S amps, what options do I have in order to achieve 5.1 surround sound setup?

Chris, I hope you read this thread. Since, we have discussed the B&W CM7 speakers and I want to achieve 5.1 surround sound setup, I was hoping you could help with my next question.
   (Q7) Since I fear I will not be able to afford additional B&W drivers, beyond CM7 future purchase, do you know of good matching drivers to eventually use for my center, rears, and sub speakers?
Based on the money I will need to shell out for the CM7 drivers (amps and pre/pro too), I don't think I will be able to afford B&W center & rear drivers.

Cheers and thanks for reading!

 

[WmAx]

Then the kid starts saying why do you want those things? The QSC GSX 3 is a lot cheaper and better.

How would that kid know anything, to be honest? The Yamaha has no fan noise, and it's an upper medium grade pro amplifier. It uses a pure class A/B output with an infinitely variable tracking power supply giving it about the efficiency of a class D/switching amplifier. It is completely silent in every way(physically and from the amplified signal). It's a very high tech amplifier with 1st class performance. The GSX 3 is a DJ budget amp that has an annoying fan. You would have to mod the fan to use this amp in home use.

I like the concept of using Yamaha P2500S amps for a 5.1 surround system.
    (Q1) Is this viable for a 5.1 system?

If you can swing the cost, it's a viable option, sure. It is also more efficient than virtually all home amps since it uses the tracking power supply, so you would also get more real-world power out of the Yamaha amps on your AC circuit compared to the standard straight up AB class amplifiers that are prevalent. The tracking power supply in the Yamaha almost doubles efficiency.

It appears to me I would have to buy three Yamaha P2500S amps to achieve a 5.1 setup.

Yes. However, you really don't need to use such power for the rear speakers. These are just sound f/x for HT use. You could just use the amplifiers on the L, C and R channels. Use a high quality reciever with pre outs like a Yamaha RX-V1800 or something and use the built in amps for the rear channels.

However, for best music playback results, I highly recommend using external component crossovers. The Behringer DCX2496 is the unit I recommend. It also has 3 inputs, which can handle L, C and R. Send the L and are from the receiver as 'LARGE' and the DCX will handle and route xover for the main speakers and subwoofer(s). The xover in the DCX is far more sophisticated than the one in a receiver, allowing for seamless integration(you really need twin/stereo subs for music if crossing over 55 or so Hz). The DCX also allows for bass room correction and sophisticated filters to increase your sound quality for the mains. Also, the DCX makes for easy conversion of the unbalanced RCA outs from the receiver pre-amp to pro level signals to send to the Yamaha amplifiers.

   (Q4) Can an Audio/Video Processor be hooked up to three Yamaha P2500S amps?
Buying three Yamaha P2500S amps is getting costly, for me, at $400 each. If Chris says these are great value to wattage amps, I believe his assessment. However, $1200 for the three still leaves me needing to purchase a Audio/Video Processor not to mention speaker drivers for all 5.1 speaker setup.

You should be able to get a factory refurbished Yamaha RX-V1800 on eBay for about $450-$500, and it comes with a Yamaha factory warranty. Use just two of the P2500 amplifiers, and the DCX, and you should be able to fit everything in the budget.

   (Q7) Since I fear I will not be able to afford additional B&W drivers, beyond CM7 future purchase, do you know of good matching drivers to eventually use for my center, rears, and sub speakers?

I would recommend using the same drivers and xovers for the center as for the L and R if you want the highest sound quality. For the rears, it is far less critical. This is just sound F/X and such.

For the subwoofers, I don't know your budget. But the Infinity Kappa Perfect 12VQ subwoofer plans on this site will give you subwoofers that outperform high end commercial subs with ease. I originally specified the drivers and cabinet specifications for this project, so rest assured it will perform to very high standards. I recommend dual subs for music of course. The drivers are $170 each at discount web vendors. You need to use an absolute minimum of 500 watts RMS per subwoofer, and 1000 RMS is ideal. The DCX2496 mentioned earlier would manage the subwoofer xover and any bass room corrections as well as be used to apply subsonic filter. A Yamaha P5000S would be a great amp to use on them, producing about 700 watts RMS per channel at 4 Ohms. But to save money, you can use a Behringer Ep2500 and do a fan mod(to swap in a quiet fan) and it will produce a solid 650 watts RMS per channel at 4 Ohms for about 1/2 the cost.

-Chris

 

[TLS Guy]

How are you planning to get hold of B & W drivers and crossover? As far as I'm aware B & W are not, and never have been in the OEM speaker business.

 

[WoodHack]

How are you planning to get hold of B & W drivers and crossover? As far as I'm aware B & W are not, and never have been in the OEM speaker business.

I went to there site and found the parts & service department tele and called. I left a message and they called me back. Then they emailed an itemized price break down of X/O's and all drivers I requested info on.

Sorry, I tried to put the B&W gals email address in this message but was denied ability to do so... my post count most be 5 or greater to include email addresses in body content.

I will see if I can find the specific tele for you, maybe it's not a good idea for me to post someone elses email address.

Cheers!

 

[WoodHack]

How are you planning to get hold of B & W drivers and crossover? As far as I'm aware B & W are not, and never have been in the OEM speaker business.

TLS Guy,
Sorry, I could not find the direct number to their Parts & Service Dept, lost it. But I went to their site and looked up this number, Tel: +1 (978) 664 2870. I am quite certain this was the original tele I used to finally get the Parts & Service Department tele.

Hope this helps!

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy,
Sorry, I could not find the direct number to their Parts & Service Dept, lost it. But I went to their site and looked up this number, Tel: +1 (978) 664 2870. I am quite certain this was the original tele I used to finally get the Parts & Service Department tele.

Hope this helps!

I assume that you told them you needed parts for repair. B & W have been firmly against supplying drivers to the home constructor, so I would not broadcast this too widely.

 

[WoodHack]

TLS Guy,
I tried sending you a PM but was restricted from doing so because I am newby. I will try to reply with PM when I can.

 

[TLS Guy]

TLS Guy,
I tried sending you a PM but was restricted from doing so because I am newby. I will try to reply with PM when I can.

That's fine. I'm not looking to purchase the drivers. I'm just trying to caution you that if someone above the rank of the "gal" you spoke to catch on that these drivers are not for the repair of existing purchased speakers, you are not going to get those drivers.

 

[WoodHack]

How would that kid know anything, to be honest? The Yamaha has no fan noise, and it's an upper medium grade pro amplifier. It uses a pure class A/B output with an infinitely variable tracking power supply giving it about the efficiency of a class D/switching amplifier. It is completely silent in every way(physically and from the amplified signal). It's a very high tech amplifier with 1st class performance. The GSX 3 is a DJ budget amp that has an annoying fan. You would have to mod the fan to use this amp in home use.

Touché!

It is also more efficient than virtually all home amps since it uses the tracking power supply, so you would also get more real-world power out of the Yamaha amps on your AC circuit compared to the standard straight up AB class amplifiers that are prevalent. The tracking power supply in the Yamaha almost doubles efficiency.

Thanks for pointing out this unknown to me fact. Efficiency, usually demonstrates sound design principles and execution, in my book.

Yes. However, you really don't need to use such power for the rear speakers. These are just sound f/x for HT use.

Again, thanks for pointing out this unknown to me fact.

You should be able to get a factory refurbished Yamaha RX-V1800 on eBay for about $450-$500, and it comes with a Yamaha factory warranty. Use just two of the P2500 amplifiers, and the DCX, and you should be able to fit everything in the budget.

I would recommend using the same drivers and xovers for the center as for the L and R if you want the highest sound quality. For the rears, it is far less critical. This is just sound F/X and such.

As of now, I am serioulsy considering this approach.

For the subwoofers, I don't know your budget. But the [_URL=http:||forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45528]Infinity Kappa Perfect 12VQ subwoofer plans on this site[/URL] will give you subwoofers that outperform high end commercial subs with ease. I originally specified the drivers and cabinet specifications for this project, so rest assured it will perform to very high standards. I recommend dual subs for music of course. The drivers are $170 each at discount web vendors. You need to use an absolute minimum of 500 watts RMS per subwoofer, and 1000 RMS is ideal. The DCX2496 mentioned earlier would manage the subwoofer xover and any bass room corrections as well as be used to apply subsonic filter. A Yamaha P5000S would be a great amp to use on them, producing about 700 watts RMS per channel at 4 Ohms. But to save money, you can use a Behringer Ep2500 and do a fan mod(to swap in a quiet fan) and it will produce a solid 650 watts RMS per channel at 4 Ohms for about 1/2 the cost.

Wow, I was not aware of dual sub combination!

Over all alot for me to digest. But, I really feel like I am finally getting some clarity.

Chris, I will have additional questions in near future, but once again I can't thank you enough for the great advice.

Cheers!

 

[WoodHack]

Use just two of the <font color="red">P2500 amplifiers </font>, and the DCX, and you should be able to fit everything in the budget.
...
...
The DCX2496 mentioned earlier would manage the subwoofer xover and any bass room corrections as well as be used to apply subsonic filter. A <font color="red">Yamaha P5000S</font> would be a great amp to use on them, producing about 700 watts RMS per channel at 4 Ohms. But to save money, you can use a Behringer Ep2500 and do a fan mod(to swap in a quiet fan) and it will produce a solid 650 watts RMS per channel at 4 Ohms for about 1/2 the cost.
-Chris

Chris,

I want to make sure I am on the same page as a possible solution. Control and power breaks down like this.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;· Route <font color="red">Yamaha RX-V1800</font> left and right speaker outputs, as large (assume this is a setting on reciever), to <font color="red">DCX2496</font> left and right inputs.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;· <font color="red">DCX2496</font> output-1 plugs into <font color="red">Yamaha P5000S</font> input to control dual subs.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;· <font color="red">DCX2496</font> output-2 plugs into <font color="red">Yamaha P2500S</font> input to control front left and right speakers.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;· Use <font color="red">Yamaha RX-V1800</font> center output to power center speaker.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;· Use <font color="red">Yamaha RX-V1800</font> rear outputs to power rear speakers.

(1) Is this the setup of the budget system you mentioned?

Sorry for being a little thick on the up take.


By the way, I purchased a <font color="red">Yamaha P5000S</font>.

(2) Taking into consideration the setup I just described, with a price difference between a <font color="red">P2500S</font> vs. a <font color="red">P5000S</font> of 60 bucks, would it not make sense to get another <font color="red">P5000S</font> vs. the <font color="red">P2500S</font>?

I am assuming spec wise these two are equiv except for wattage.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;(3) Is this true?

(4) Will the <font color="red">P5000S</font> suck down a lot more energy (idle current) or basically just consume nearly as much energy, as the <font color="red">P2500S</font>, based on the current dynamic energy demand?

Thanks again and cheers!