DVD Audio 5.1 vs Digital DTS 5.1

[Cpt.America]

So iv really been into my lastest two porcupine tree DVD-A disks, and on each disk there are three options. Two channel PCM, DVD audio 5.1, and Digital DTS 5.1. I know what the PCM stereo is, but what is the difference between the DVD audio and Digital DTS multi tracks? If my ears serve me, the Digital DTS sounds better... but I am just wondering what the techinical difference is.

Thanks!
Cpt.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

DVD-Audio and SACD are suppose to be the best - 96 kHz to 192 kHz/24 Bit.
DTS is suppose to be inferior to both of them, and I think it's 44 kHz/16 Bit.

 

[j_garcia]

The DTS track on the PT discs are good, but the DVD-A tracks are simply some of the best I've heard. There is a lot more detail in the DVD-A tracks on those discs, though the bass will likely be a bit more pronounced with the DTS tracks due to how the signals are processed. How do you have the 980 connected? HDMI or multichannel analog?

 

[Cpt.America]

The DTS track on the PT discs are good, but the DVD-A tracks are simply some of the best I've heard. There is a lot more detail in the DVD-A tracks on those discs, though the bass will likely be a bit more pronounced with the DTS tracks due to how the signals are processed. How do you have the 980 connected? HDMI or multichannel analog?

Thanks Jgarcia. When I first started playing the DVD-Audio, I thought that there wasn't an LFE track at ALL there, which is why I started listening to the DTS tracks. I literally have to turn my sub up to 100% to get any real thump out of the LFE track / Sub. The DTS or Stereo tracks I have to turn it back down to 1/2 or less, like most other things. Even though there might be more detail and more information, I found the mix to be less pleasing, and out of balance. I guess I have to give it another listen....

980 connected to Pioneer VHX via HDMI.

 

[j_garcia]

I used the 980 via analog when I had it, so I don't know if the speaker configuration takes place in the player or the receiver in your case. My guess is it is on the receiver side, though you will need to look and see if there are specific settings for how the receiver handles DVD-A/SACD or if there are settings in the player that will affect what you hear - I know the 980 can pass DSD via HDMI, but I suppose it depends on what your receiver does with it after that and it definitely sounds like there are separate settings. DTS is quite a bit different than DVD-A as there is signal processing for DTS that adds +10dB to the bass (it treats it like a movie essentially), while this does NOT happen for DVD-A.

 

[zumbo]

DTS track:
Your receiver is employing all of it's internal settings, bass-management, speaker level, speaker distance, and any calibration set by you or the receiver.

DVD-A track:
The 5.1 analog multi-channel inputs/ext.in on the receiver bypasses all of the above.

For HT, it's a waste of money.

If you have five B&W 802D's(example), it may just be da bomb.

Grim Reaper on the way for dvd-a. Already stopped by my place.

 

[j_garcia]

He's using HDMI not M/C analog, so not sure how where the speaker settings are, but I presume via HDMI they are also happening in the receiver. Yes, more or less a dying format but that doesn't mean we can't enjoy what we currently own

 

[zumbo]

I missed the post. My bad.

Is there an issue with b/m conflicting? When dvd-a is output LPCM, the player employs it's b/m functions. I would assume the receiver is also employing it's b/m as well, correct?

All of these issues are why I am looking at my dvd-a player in my rack of unused equipment. The dvd-a inventors goofed big time.

 

[j_garcia]

I don't know how b/m is handled for that player because I always used mine via analog.

 

[zumbo]

If bass management conflicting is the issue, analog is the solution. That is, if the player has adequate b/m for your needs.

 

[Cpt.America]

Thanks for the conversation fellas... i'm afraid I am even more confused now than I was before. Just for SOME clarification...

1) I am using nothing but HDMI
2) There are speaker settings (Small, large, LFE on or off) in both the recevier AND the 980. Which takes priority when, I have no idea, but they are set the same on both devices
3) On the player, i have choose DVD Audio, on the reciever, I set it to "direct", so that it does no processing other than speaker distances, EQs, and levels.

That about all I got at the moment. Anything else I can look for on either the player or receiver? Care to clarify why there is a problem with DVD-A? im not sure I got it.

 

[zumbo]

You need to either bypass the players b/m, or choose all speakers large(in the player).

If the player has LFE yes or no, as you state, I would imagine you choose no.

I don't own your products, so I am not certain.

I do know you don't want two pieces of equipment employing b/m at the same time.

In other words, I want you to set the player to send unprocessed audio to the receiver to process.

 

[Cpt.America]

You need to either bypass the players b/m, or choose all speakers large(in the player).

If the player has LFE yes or no, as you state, I would imagine you choose no.

I don't own your products, so I am not certain.

I do know you don't want two pieces of equipment employing b/m at the same time.

In other words, I want you to set the player to send unprocessed audio to the receiver to process.

Thanks. This is how it is already set up. The player is set to all small, and LFE is ON. But, I have HDMI audio setup to output raw, so I think all these things are bypassed anyway.

But, I figured out what the problem is. The problem, as I suspected, is with the MIX itself.

When I got home, I went through all the players settings again to make sure I didn't miss anything, and everything looked fine. I put in "In Absentia", and set the audio to be DTS. Pressed play on my favorite track, and of course, it sounds fantastic. Drums are in your face, vocals sit in their own space, every instrument sounds just like it should. So I go back to the main menu, and this time choose DVD Audio as the source, and go back to the same track. Right away, I can tell the mix has 1/10th the amount of low end. I have to literally turn my A3-300 to 100% to even get a LITTLE bit of low end. There were all kinds of problems. No kick drum, barely any bass guitar, the entire track sounds more echoey or loose. The drums are flimsey and everything seems to mix together... nothing sits in its own space (the goal of a good mix). Sure everythign sounds clear and uncompressed, the mix is HORRIBLE.

So, I change disks:

In goes "Deadwing", another DVD-A disk from porcupine tree. I duplicate everything I did before. The DTS track sounds great, plenty of low end... mix sounds great all around. Then, I go swap to the DVD Audio source. WOW!!! DVD Audio track sounds FANTASTIC! there is maybe 10% less LFE (not 1/10th like on In Abentia, nothing a tiny touch of the gain can't fix). Not only is the DVD-A track a smidge clearer, less compressed, maybe a tad lower in overall volume, but the mix is BANGING.. The drums sound like you are sitting in the room with them, the vocals are clear, all the guitars fit in their own nitch, and everything rocks together like you were sitting in front of the band in the studio.

The problem? The dvd-a mix on "In Abentia". The mix is so bad, that it really isn't even all that enjoyable to listen to comparred to both the DTS and the 2.1 tracks. Deadwing? A whole different story.

Thanks for the help guys.

Cpt.

 

[j_garcia]

No, something is still wrong there, because the mix on In Absentia is BETTER than Deadwing. It is easily among the best DVD-As I own (all of their DVD-As are ). I have never once heard anyone say that the In Absentia mix was anything less than stellar, and that is actually the disc that got me to start listening to them. There is less bass on this disc than on Deadwing, but nowhere near 1/10th. I actually even use In Absentia as a level verification after calibrating. I am off to listen to them right now, will report back. I have been listening to these two albums for years in 5.1 and never had a complaint.

 

[Cpt.America]

I did it again... the mix is just bad. Everything is tinny... mashed together... flat.. no pop, nothing cuts through. DTS track, MUCH better.

Move over to deadwing.. the mixes are very very similar, but the DVD audio is smoother, clearer, and just sounds freakin perfect. Deadwing sounds TWICE as good as In abentia in my opinion, even more so if you compare the mixes on the dvd audio sources. Let the GF listen, she also thinks the dvd-a mix on absentia sounds very weak.

 

[zumbo]

Thanks. This is how it is already set up. The player is set to all small, and LFE is ON. But, I have HDMI audio setup to output raw, so I think all these things are bypassed anyway.

You have NO reason what-so-ever to use the b/m in your player for any audio output via HDMI.

Speakers should be set to LARGE.

If the option for LFE is yes/no, on/off, select no/off.

There is NO need for b/m in the player, and in the receiver. D@mn.

 

[j_garcia]

My guess is you CAN'T use b/m from both devices. The b/m on the 980 most likely only applies to the analog outs, as it does not apply to the optical/coaxial digital outs either.

Listening to pieces of tracks from both albums just now and some of the DTS tracks on both as well, I found the opposite of what you are saying. In Absentia is an older recording than Deadwing and likely the recording has less bass in it, but the DVD-A tracks still sound nothing short of excellent to me. The tracks ".3" and "Lips of Ashes" are examples of how a good multichannel mix should be done. What about the bonus tracks? "Chloroform" and "Futile" should sound great.

There is more bass on Deadwing, but I would say the mixes are more similar than not; I don't hear a "huge" difference between the two albums. Did you find the bonus track "She's Moved On"?

 

[Cpt.America]

Since I am running HDMI, and "raw" out of my oppo... none of those audio settings are beign passed out the player anyway.

I dunno what to tell you man.. either we have different versions of the DVD-A, or our tastes are just wildly different. You can really hear the mix issues if you pay attention to the drum track. Being a drummer and recording artist of 20 years, I know exactly waht an accoustic drum kit should sound like.. particrlarly in hard hitting rock and roll. The dvd-audio source on in abentia, in my opinion, is very weak, very thin. It is clear, ill give you that, but is a horrible rock and roll mix non-the-less. I did all my critical listening on that disk on sound of muzak (biggest drums), and trains.

I think deadwing sounds just rediculously good

Ill go find those bonus tracks!

Cpt.

 

[Cpt.America]

Did you find the bonus track "She's Moved On"?

Nope... There are 3 bonus tracks on each of my disks, none of them are called "shes moved on"? Is it a HIDDEN bonus track somehwere? If so, how do i find it

 

[zumbo]

Since I am running HDMI, and "raw" out of my oppo... none of those audio settings are beign passed out the player anyway.

I understand that. What I don't understand is why you even bothered to set them?

What puzzles me even more, is why you haven't bothered to change it.

If I was asking about why my system didn't perform, and someone made a logical point about an incorrect setting, I would be on my way to correct it.