Horn Speakers - Is tube amp desirable ?

[timetohunt]

I recently started another thread as I am in the market for an integrated amplifier to improve/separate stereo sound out of my HT setup.

One thing that struck me (and forgot to ask in the other thread) was about
a tube amp.

I have Klipsch FR-83 floor standers (their flagship model) and have heard on several occasions that a tube amp is a better match for horn equipped speakers. What are your thoughts on that?

Are there integrated tube amps available in the $1500 range?

 

[jcPanny]

Integrated tube amp

Tube amps tend to have much less power (30-50 watts per channel) than modern solid state amps. That shouldn't be a problem with the high effeciency of your Klipsch speakers. I don't have a lot of experience w/ Klipsch, but I hear most people refer to them is great HT speakers as opposed to 2 channel music speakers. You might consider investing your funds in a seperate 2 channel setup.

To experiment with a tube amp, consider the Onix SP3 from AV123. They are about $1k new, but I saw one for $500 on the clasified page of their forum. Check it out:
http://av123forum.com/showthread.php?t=20623

 

[Seth=L]

Why do tube amps pair so well with Klipsch horn loaded speakers? I have a theory, but I don't have the tests to prove my theory.

Klipsch are efficient, so they take you watt the furthest of most other speakers.

Klipsch are notorious for low impedance dips from what I hear, and the Reference series is no exeption. It is likely the RF-83 are more unstable than most speakers because they can't have every benifit of a dynamic driver. Meaning, it can't be efficient, have strong low end, and be easy to drive. A sacrifice has to be made at some point, so impedance becomes an issue with Klipsch.

Klipsch are also notoriously bright, because of the horn loading design. Also when an amplifier starts soft clipping they will brighten up. Weak transistor amps, or more appropriate, amplifiers that aren't stable with difficult loads choke when Klipsch doesn't get what it wants.

So why tube amps? Most tube amps are stable, within their respective ratings, with low impedance loads. Klipsch's efficient, bright, but load bearing speakers coupled with Tube amp's warm colour and drive any load capability you get positive results.

 

[WmAx]

I recently started another thread as I am in the market for an integrated amplifier to improve/separate stereo sound out of my HT setup.

One thing that struck me (and forgot to ask in the other thread) was about
a tube amp.

I have Klipsch FR-83 floor standers (their flagship model) and have heard on several occasions that a tube amp is a better match for horn equipped speakers. What are your thoughts on that?

Are there integrated tube amps available in the $1500 range?

Forget the false testaments praising clearly inferior technology that is of a much higher cost. Get a high power, highly stable solid state amp, such one from Adcom or Bryston, or a myriad of other vendors that reliably create high quality solid state designs, and pair it with a quality DSP equalizer such as a Behringer DEQ2496. If you want tube distortion, you can even get a tube preamp designed for professional studio use that allows you to control the amount of distortion injected into the signal.

Compared to purchasing a tube amp, my solution is far better, and will yield far superior results, as you will never experience clipping distortion, and you will have direct control over your tonal balance and distortion amounts.

-Chris

 

[Buckeye_Nut]

Forget the false testaments praising clearly inferior technology that is of a much higher cost. Get a high power, highly stable solid state amp, such one from Adcom or Bryston, or a myriad of other vendors that reliably create high quality solid state designs, and pair it with a quality DSP equalizer such as a Behringer DEQ2496. If you want tube distortion, you can even get a tube preamp designed for professional studio use that allows you to control the amount of distortion injected into the signal.

Compared to purchasing a tube amp, my solution is far better, and will yield far superior results, as you will never experience clipping distortion, and you will have direct control over your tonal balance and distortion amounts.

-Chris

Ditto that

 

[Tomorrow]

My experience with Klipsch is amazing. Every, and I mean every Klipsch I ever heard made me want to take an ice pick to my eardrums. The sibilant, horn-loaded tweeters that Klipsch used were like little needles up and down my spine. (No disrespect to Klipsch owners. These are just my ears.) And then, just for the fun of it (I felt a little masochistic, maybe), I auditioned an set of those new 83's. HOLY SMOKES! What a difference. Those are really nice sounding speakers (the usual caveat..."to my ears"). Clean off-axis, rich full-range, no obvious cabinet resonance. Then, right next to them, was a highly beloved (by others...not me) and treasured Heresy setup. UGH...THAT was what Klipsch used to do to me...."TURN IT OFF...PLEASE!!"

I believe someone said in a recent post that Klipsch is now using a completely new crossover and driver system for their Reference speakers. I would be unafraid to drive your 83's with a solid state amp/receiver. I'd guess it would be a good mating. Perhaps a local Klipsch dealer will provide a tube vs. ss amp comparo for you. Let your own ears decide.

 

[highfihoney]

Tubes & Klipsch is mostly folklore & reliving the good ole days but there is some truth.

Klipsch are not a speaker that you can just throw any ole amp/preamp on & think they are going to sound great,it aint happening,my preferences with Klipsch speakers are to use all solid state amplification but i do not try to get off on the cheap either,carefull matching of the amp & pre will yeild the best results,throwing any ole amp/receiver on them will yeild terrible results & they will sound extremely bright & you wont be able to stand prolonged listening sessions.

Some good matches for Klipsch are Bryston,Krell,Mcintosh,B&K.

Some terrible matches for Klipsch are Rotel & Adcom,both are great amps just not great with klipsch.

Another important aspect of running Klipsch speakers is the ability to control or tailor the tone,recievers/preamps & intergrateds without the ability to adjust tone & loudness are not a good match,preset tone/eq programs within the intergrated or pre/pro are not the same,real tone/loudness contour is a must.

Ive got quite a bit of tube gear & i own several models of Klipsch speakers & in every case i can better the sound from my Klipsch by running high wattage solid state amplification over tube amplification.

 

[corey]

Other than WmAx's post, there seem to be 2 main points of disinformation in this thread.

1) Signal source. The idea the any descent separates or receivers will color your speaker's sound is in the realm of magic power cords & $100/foot speaker wire.
2) Klipsch & tubes. This is backwards. It's not that Klipsch need tubes, it's that tubes need Klipsch (as jcPanny said, efficient Klipsch speakers will make the most of low wattage amps).


"I don't have a lot of experience w/ Klipsch, but I hear most people refer to them"
"I have a theory, but I don't have the tests to prove my theory."
"Klipsch are notorious for low impedance dips from what I hear"
--- At least these folks admit that they don't know.

"Every, and I mean every Klipsch I ever heard made me want to take an ice pick to my eardrums"
--- This person is quoting another frequent poster, one who has stated he keeps his treble attenuated.

"Klipsch are not a speaker that you can just throw any ole amp/preamp on & think they are going to sound great,it aint happening"
--- Actually, yes, you can. Klipsch are very efficient, so pretty much any amp can drive them.

If you have decent components feeding Klipsch RF-83's, about the only things you have left to look at are speaker placement, room treatments & equalization.

 

[highfihoney]

Other than WmAx's post, there seem to be 2 main points of disinformation in this thread.

1) Signal source. The idea the any descent separates or receivers will color your speaker's sound is in the realm of magic power cords & $100/foot speaker wire.
2) Klipsch & tubes. This is backwards. It's not that Klipsch need tubes, it's that tubes need Klipsch (as jcPanny said, efficient Klipsch speakers will make the most of low wattage amps).


"I don't have a lot of experience w/ Klipsch, but I hear most people refer to them"
"I have a theory, but I don't have the tests to prove my theory."
"Klipsch are notorious for low impedance dips from what I hear"
--- At least these folks admit that they don't know.

"Every, and I mean every Klipsch I ever heard made me want to take an ice pick to my eardrums"
--- This person is quoting another frequent poster, one who has stated he keeps his treble attenuated.

"Klipsch are not a speaker that you can just throw any ole amp/preamp on & think they are going to sound great,it aint happening"
--- Actually, yes, you can. Klipsch are very efficient, so pretty much any amp can drive them.

If you have decent components feeding Klipsch RF-83's, about the only things you have left to look at are speaker placement, room treatments & equalization.

Hmmm,being that you labeled my post as "disinformation" please explain how you come to this conclusion,have you done any hands on research on this,performed any tests with different components,dbt,dbx,any kind of testings or comparisons under controled conditions?

If so what Klipsch speakers were used in your testing & what different amplifiers were used,also how were your measurements done?

 

[Seth=L]

Other than WmAx's post, there seem to be 2 main points of disinformation in this thread.

1) Signal source. The idea the any descent separates or receivers will color your speaker's sound is in the realm of magic power cords & $100/foot speaker wire.
2) Klipsch & tubes. This is backwards. It's not that Klipsch need tubes, it's that tubes need Klipsch (as jcPanny said, efficient Klipsch speakers will make the most of low wattage amps).


"I don't have a lot of experience w/ Klipsch, but I hear most people refer to them"
"I have a theory, but I don't have the tests to prove my theory."
"Klipsch are notorious for low impedance dips from what I hear"
--- At least these folks admit that they don't know.

"Every, and I mean every Klipsch I ever heard made me want to take an ice pick to my eardrums"
--- This person is quoting another frequent poster, one who has stated he keeps his treble attenuated.

"Klipsch are not a speaker that you can just throw any ole amp/preamp on & think they are going to sound great,it aint happening"
--- Actually, yes, you can. Klipsch are very efficient, so pretty much any amp can drive them.

If you have decent components feeding Klipsch RF-83's, about the only things you have left to look at are speaker placement, room treatments & equalization.

Any well designed transister amp working within its comfort zone should be uncolored. The Reference series Klipsch have been approached before concerning the load they tax on amps, and I guess I should have been more clear. Klipsch RF-83s do dip low in impedance, making them sound compressed and shrill, sometimes at lower volumes. 2.8-11 ohms is a pretty variable impedance.

I don't like making solid statements when I can't 100% validate my answers, I answer as best as I can.

 

[Tomorrow]

"Every, and I mean every Klipsch I ever heard made me want to take an ice pick to my eardrums"
--- This person is quoting another frequent poster, one who has stated he keeps his treble attenuated..

Uh, no. I'm quoting myself from a thread of two years ago (when I used a different screen name). And you have the information wrong...I have NEVER attenuated my treble. Perhaps I've attenuated my anger at being misrepresented/misquoted, but never my treble.

You apparently also thought it necessary to take this little frivolity of mine out of the context that I thoroughly enjoy the FR-83's. What's your point?

EDIT: Ah, I see. I stepped on someone's sensitive buttons...

I like Klipsch a lot (own RB-61, RC-52).

Corey, you shouldn't have taken what I said as an insult. I qualified my comment with the "to my ears" caveat.

 

[Seth=L]

For the record I also really like the Klipsch RF-83s, best sounding Klipsch I have ever heard, but powered incorrectly (this coming from the basis that amps should not color sound), and they won't sound their best.

We can't jump to conclusions about everything here.

 

[mtrycrafts]

S&V tests

For the record I also really like the Klipsch RF-83s, best sounding Klipsch I have ever heard, but powered incorrectly (this coming from the basis that amps should not color sound), and they won't sound their best.

We can't jump to conclusions about everything here.

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1850/test-bench-klipsch-rf-83-home-theater-speaker-system.html

The low point is at 180Hz, if memory is correct, been over a minute between over a minute reading the link and posting
But, that sensitivity would drive that speaker pretty loud with even 10 watts. I bet even a receiver could muster that power at 2.8 Ohms.

Not sure I am thrilled with a +/- 5 dB FR.

 

[Seth=L]

Not sure I am thrilled with a +/- 5 dB FR.

No spec is completely reliable.

 

[mtrycrafts]

No spec is completely reliable.

I think he measured it though.

 

[Davemcc]

My experience with Klipsch is amazing. Every, and I mean every Klipsch I ever heard made me want to take an ice pick to my eardrums. The sibilant, horn-loaded tweeters that Klipsch used were like little needles up and down my spine. (No disrespect to Klipsch owners. These are just my ears.) And then, just for the fun of it (I felt a little masochistic, maybe), I auditioned an set of those new 83's. HOLY SMOKES! What a difference. Those are really nice sounding speakers (the usual caveat..."to my ears"). Clean off-axis, rich full-range, no obvious cabinet resonance. Then, right next to them, was a highly beloved (by others...not me) and treasured Heresy setup. UGH...THAT was what Klipsch used to do to me...."TURN IT OFF...PLEASE!!"

This is the same reaction I had with Klipsch during my auditions. Both with the ear-splitting shrillness of the classic model I heard and how nice the new line sounds. I could not get the salesman to turn down the classic model fast enough. I can't remember which model it was, but it was painful.

 

[no. 5]

I bet even a receiver could muster that power at 2.8 Ohms.

Just don't turn it up too high.

 

[WmAx]

Sharing my personal subjective opinion, the new top of the line Reference floor stander sounds bad at best(and I listened in a rather good set up room, acoustically), with horrible off axis response and resonant cabinets that severely distorted the timbre. But I guess this an improvement, as I considered the older stuff and lower line to be dreadful.

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just don't turn it up too high.

If that low freq woof is as sensitive, no need to. 10 watts will be loud enough on those 106dB peaks.

 

[corey]

My post from a few nights ago seemed quite well put at the time, but considered in "the sober light of day", seems somewhat boorish. I should have offered my opinion in a less confrontational manner.

Tomorrow - sorry for the mix-up. Someone else used your quote, or something very like it, & I didn't realize you were the original author.

I do, however stand by my opinion that timetohunt should look at speaker placement & room treatment before amplification.