Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
No, that 10% number refers to the number of patients who required intensive care with ventilation. They were 10% out of a total of 5,883 patients infected with Covid-19.

233 patients died, out of a total of 5,883 patients infected with Covid-19. That becomes a 4% rate of mortality – bad enough.

I'll fix my earlier post to make it unambiguous.
Yeah, 233 out of the 5883 died so far is my only point. I just highly doubt the other 350 or so ICU patients in this group will survive very long without heroic efforts.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
That's a good question with at present, an unknown answer. See my last post #320. I edited it again.
From what I read on TLS Guy's posts, it looks like this Covid19 will be worse than the SARS of 2003-4 which had a death rate of 14-15%.
Countries all have to be vigilant, but our Canadian country has not been so far. In Montreal and in Vancouver, we let flights come from China and there are also daily flights going to China. Also, controls at our airports seem to be questionable.
We were not that affected much by the 2003-4 SARS coronavirus, but I suspect that it might become worse with this new invader, but most of the people who die are usually older persons and people who have a weak immune system.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
If the virus infected larger numbers of people here in the USA, and if it got news headlines, I would hope to see a significant reduction of anti-vaxers. Of course, that requires that we first have an effective vaccine available. It's like the inverse square law of electromagnetic induction. As you get closer, the effect rapidly gets more powerful.

I'm old enough to remember the polio epidemic in the US. I was in 1st or 2nd grade, and I clearly remember standing in line to get those early experimental vaccine injections. This was in a public elementary school, not a doctor's office. The widespread fear of polio was apparent to us kids. If I remember, there were two shots, one each year, followed a year or so later by the oral polio vaccine. There were a few cry-babies, but most kids got their vaccine shots without displaying any fear & loathing. They knew the ration of crap that awaited them at home if they didn't get that shot.

And if anti-vaxers are foolish enough to refuse vaccination, they can line up, post-humusly, for their Darwin Awards. Natural selection still works today, as it did in the past.
@Swerd,

You and I most likely have around the same age. When my godmother came over, with my cousin who was 8 years older than I then, to visit us at home, he had the obvious fever and first symptoms of polio. I remember and I was about 6 at the time so it must have been in 1946-7.
Mom, who was a very careful and lovely person, immediately after our visitors left, cleaned thoroughly the bed in which my cousin had shortly slept, to protect me from any bacteria or virus infection. I'm 79 and I'll be 80 next September. Is it possible that I might be the oldest regular poster on this site?
Cheers,

André
 
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ellisr63

ellisr63

Full Audioholic
From what I read on TLS Guy's posts, it looks like this Covid19 will be worse than the SARS of 2003-4 which had a death rate of 14-15%.
Countries all have to be vigilant, but our Canadian country has not been so far. In Montreal and in Vancouver, we let flights come from China and there are also daily flights going to China. Also, controls at our airports seem to be questionable.
We were not that affected much by the 2003-4 SARS coronavirus, but I suspect that it might become worse with this new invader, but most of the people who die are usually older persons and people who have a weak immune system.
What I think they should be doing is cutting off all flight, but of course they will not. It is much easier to contain if people self Quarantine, as it would be much easier to locate. Then they can test people in the areas where people are from first.

Sent from my SM-T830 using Tapatalk
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
@Swerd,

You and I most likely have around the same age. When my godmother came over, with my cousin who was 8 years older than I then, to visit us at home, he had the obvious fever and first symptoms of polio. I remember and I was about 6 at the time so it must have been in 1946-7.
Mom, who was a very careful and lovely person, immediately after our visitors left, cleaned thoroughly the bed in which my cousin had shortly slept, to protect me from any bacteria or virus infection. I'm 79 and I'll be 80 next September. Is it possible that I might be the oldest regular poster on this site?
I was born in late 1948, so you're definitely older that I am. The injected Salk vaccine came into use in 1955. The oral Sabin vaccine was first used commercially in 1961.

From Wikipedia:
Salk's vaccine was then used in a test called the Francis Field Trial, led by Thomas Francis, the largest medical experiment in history at that time. The test began with about 4,000 children at Franklin Sherman Elementary School in McLean, Virginia, and eventually involved 1.8 million children, in 44 states from Maine to California. I was one of those kids in that large vaccine trial. People all over the country clamored to get their kids into that experiment.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Okay, let me rephrase. If the Italian experience will be typical, 10% of people testing positive end up in an ICU. Is the ICU only postponing the inevitable at great cost? Or put another way, what percentage of COVID-19 patients come out of the ICU alive and capable of independent living? It seems to this layman like the answer is a very small percentage.
The only thing correct about your response is the effort and expense to save the ICU cases.

This is not easily explained. The problem is the most common enemy we faced and continue to face in the ICU, is ARDS. This is adult respiratory distress syndrome.

This occurs most often as a result of severe infections, usually bacterial but can be from certain viral infections. Other causes are severe trauma and very major surgery. I had a case of it after my first very major surgery in 2007 at Mayo Clinic. Fortunately it was at the milder end of the spectrum. In the more severe cases it progresses to multi system organ failure. Now us physicians who have, and do, toil in the ICU are not in the habit of wasting our time in futility any more than we can possibly help.

ARDS is an abnormal immune response and the system runs riot. In this case in response to fighting the Covid 19 virus the immune system damages the small capillary blood vessels all over the body. This makes the capillary membranes leaky and proteins leak out into the extracellular space, especially the alveolar space of the lung where oxygen and CO2 are exchanged. This is always accompanied by a degree if highly destructive intra vascular coagulation, especially in the smaller blood vessels. This increases the oncotic pressure of the extracellular space causing it to fill with fluid and dehydrate the circulatory and intra cellular spaces. This results in severe oxygen lack. Mechanical ventilation is required, and I won't go into all this, but careful settings of the ventilator help buy needed time for repair and resolution. In very major centers ECMO can be employed when mechanical ventilation is not able to control the oxygen lack and oxygen and CO2 are exchanged by an artificial external membrane. In these cases the kidneys will also have failed, so it is usually combined with continuous dialysis. The kidneys are usually the next organ to fail after the lungs, and after that the liver and then the brain.

Now if all goes well the lungs and kidneys will make a good recovery. Often there is some residual damage, but after recovery quality of life is generally good. The lungs especially, usually show good recovery. The kidneys can have damage and in diabetic patients permanent kidney failure leading to long term dialysis and transplant is quite common. In a good ICU about 80% of patients should make a good recovery. So the results reported by the Italian physicians are typical of state of the art ICU care. So that explains the 2% mortality from an illness that has an incidence of 10% ARDS with and without multi system organ failure.

I hope that has given you the explanation you require. I do need to dispel the common public notion, that going on life support is for sure the end of the road, or at least the end of life with any quality and only disability. That is not the case, but I think that is what you were suggesting, and I absolutely need to set this straight.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
...
We only know 233 patients died out of a total of 5,883. We don't know if all those 233 dead were only from the patients who received intensive care with ventilation. The way the news article was written, I couldn't tell.
...
The total dead counted is still 4% of the total they said whether part were from ICU or not. 1st they went to the ICU and counted under that 10%.
If some died in the ICU, they are counted as dead of the total known, 4%. So, yet some may have been counted twice but you cannot separate them unless you make another category, I presume, of course. Dead is still dead, not recovered. I guess some could have died before going to ICU. They are still dead and part of that 4%.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I was born in late 1948, so you're definitely older that I am. The injected Salk vaccine came into use in 1955. The oral Sabin vaccine was first used commercially in 1961.

From Wikipedia:
Salk's vaccine was then used in a test called the Francis Field Trial, led by Thomas Francis, the largest medical experiment in history at that time. The test began with about 4,000 children at Franklin Sherman Elementary School in McLean, Virginia, and eventually involved 1.8 million children, in 44 states from Maine to California. I was one of those kids in that large vaccine trial. People all over the country clamored to get their kids into that experiment.
I now recall that the polio epidemic lasted for several decades as an obvious reason for later development of appropriate vaccines.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
Seems like this time of uncertainty, trying to figure out how to react, from chicken little freakout, to "nah, it'll be fine" fatalism, that we can use it as a learning opportunity.

 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
No TP at Costco today but plenty at Kroger (Fred Meyer) so no big deal. :)
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
 
H

herbu

Audioholic Samurai
Guys, maybe I have some ostrich blood in me, but I'm just not as worked up over this as some folks. Perhaps I've become dulled by the weekly "bombshell" reports in the media, or maybe so many of you are right and I'm just dumb... and blissful. In any event, I'm fortunate in many ways. We're 30 minutes from both Duke and UNC hospitals. We have well water, freezers full of food, wildlife, no kids or pedestrian traffic, don't frequent places with a lot of people very often, and live here...
1583780071981.png

In other words, I think our risk is considerably less than most, even if the mess does hit the fan. As much as I hope, (and think), all this is much ado about nothing, if worse comes to worst and somebody really is in jeopardy with no options, let me know. We'll be here. But be warned... I may greet you with my MAGA hat on. :)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Seems like this time of uncertainty, trying to figure out how to react, from chicken little freakout, to "nah, it'll be fine" fatalism, that we can use it as a learning opportunity.

No room on that chart for today. Off the chart? ;)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
If hospital facilities continue to be available this lower mortality rate can be maintained. However if they are overwhelmed and people that need to go into ICU cannot, that is when we will see a scary high level of mortality.
Thus, it is really in the best interest of everyone to do what they can to slow the spread so the treatment facilities are not overwhelmed.
 
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panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
The guys that wrote my Home Automation software (Home Assistant) live all over the world and decided to create a Coronavirus tracker that can be used for their individual country.

Stats as of me typing this are as follows.

2020-03-09 14_58_00-Home Assistant.png
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Samurai
I think in the end, the biggest factor is going to be the availability of ICU rooms and needed equipment like ventilators for those that warrant it. It seems like about 10% of cases that Make it to a hospital are going into ICU, and something like 1 to 2% of those are not surviving.
If hospital facilities continue to be available this lower mortality rate can be maintained. However if they are overwhelmed and people that need to go into ICU cannot, that is when we will see a scary high level of mortality.
Thus, it is really in the best interest of everyone to do what they can to slow the spread so the treatment facilities are not overwhelmed.
I agree with trying to slow it down.

One of the hospitals in Washington State has only one critical care bed left:

>>>In Washington State, things have not yet reached the stage of tough choices.

EvergreenHealth hospital in Kirkland identified the country's first fatal case of COVID-19 last Friday, and since then it's borne the brunt of the most serious cases — and most of the country's deaths. Many stem from the outbreak at the nearby Life Care nursing facility.

One week later, the hospital has made plans to house even more of the patients, by taking steps such as converting more sections of its buildings into "negative pressure wards," in which HVAC systems keep germs from spreading. Still, they're feeling the strain.

"Right now I know for certain, we have one critical care bed left," the CEO, Jeff Tomlin, said on Thursday night. "We're right now already talking to the other facilities to see what their capacity is."<<<


 
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