Incorporating MiniDSP With Audyssey XT32

A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
If you start using minidsp, i would disable audissey completely. Or at least try that. The less chains between source and amplifier the better.
 
2

2channel lover

Audioholic Field Marshall
I think it has a lot more to do with my room and Audyssey than faulty crossovers. I've had one of my speakers apart. They're using high quality parts and they look beautiful. I know the speakers aren't hand made to order, but 2k isn't throw away money for a speaker either. I'm sure the tolerances on performance and build quality is very unforgiving.

I've heard the Songtowers and was very impressed. They're great speakers and I wouldn't be upset to have them as my mains at all, but I still love my Ultras. The 3A's have the Raal tweeters though, right? I'd like to audition those sometime.

Now if you'll excuse me I have to go looking for more problems that aren't really problems... :p
The room is a factor for sure...I think we can take the names off the speakers...if run in direct mode...we might find something. $2k-3k is a sweet spot for quality speakers, but they do make compromises (in the name of price point and profit) was my point...not a swipe at the Towers, from all I've read, I'd love them too...incredible low end range.

The 3 & 3A have the same RAAL.
 
A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
Unrelated to this discussion, but actually given the prices on minidsp products, it might be a good idea to buy cheap avr, instead of much more expensive avrs with audissey xt32 what is advised on these forums often. Then when you are ready for some changes, buy minidsp for about 200-250$. This way you can 'grow' gradually and have a wider choice of avrs, not just those with xt32.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So, it appears that when Audyssey suppresses the spikes, it also indiscriminately suppresses the signal at 40Hz and 70Hz and they become deficient whereas they previously were about where you would want them!
So the idea is you may be able to generally smooth out the wild swings between 40, 50, 60, 70, and 80Hz using DSP and the Audyssey.
@ATLAudio found that using the miniDSP to clean up some of the issues beforehand helped Audyssey to do a better job. I do not know enough details of his experience to know if your situation is analogous, but hopefully he can chime in sometime tomorrow and let us know.
If those are with both two subs and mains, no smoothing, a couple dips of 4 to 5 dBs are quite good. ATL's approach may be able to improve it by another dB or 2, I don't think I have seen his equivalent plots, that is, no smoothing, mains and subs playing.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
It's just extremely difficult to manage low frequency waves and also optimize imaging and soundstage from the same locations.
A lot of people think they manage low frequency waves and also optimize imaging and soundstage from the same location just great with their full-range towers.

Where do you place your subwoofers in your room now?
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I have both!
I think "Chest Thumping Bass" means overkill, over-the-top, exaggerated, and bigger-than-real-life bass. :D

So probably by definition, "chest thumping bass" is not very accurate real life bass.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
If you start using minidsp, i would disable audissey completely. Or at least try that. The less chains between source and amplifier the better.
I did disable Audyssey and took careful measurements and posted them. Direct mode defeats Audyssey. I'm waiting to see if ATL will show up and see what he says. He uses a mini to tame the worst of his peaks and nulls, then runs Audyssey. His response graph looks amazing.
If those are with both two subs and mains, no smoothing, a couple dips of 4 to 5 dBs are quite good. ATL's approach may be able to improve it by another dB or 2, I don't think I have seen his equivalent plots, that is, no smoothing, mains and subs playing.
I used 1/12 smoothing. The only charts I posted with my subs on were the last 2.
 
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Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
I think "Chest Thumping Bass" means overkill, over-the-top, exaggerated, and bigger-than-real-life bass. :D

So probably by definition, "chest thumping bass" is not very accurate real life bass.
I think you're right. I was getting that exaggerated mid-bass with no filtering. I think what I was after is pretty far from flat... :p
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
In PD, and since my sub is close to my mains, I set the sub to roll off at roughly 1.25-1.5 times my main speakers lowest stated measurement via the sub amp's DSP. Then I turn the sub's gain down accordingly by ear to account for room gain, which is a lot in my case. This is also why I chose a smaller, 12" subwoofer driver in a sealed enclosure. My main speakers also have 12" woofers and this goes completely against current prescriptions for a correct match but it manages to be more than enough of the 'right kind' of bass for my room.

A friend of mine brought over a ported, 15" sub before I built mine and by his preference, it sounded 'blappy' to my ear and I could barely distinguish lower bass guitar notes from rumble effects in theater use and yet he loved it rather obnoxious like that. That is what initially turned me off to the notion of using a subwoofer and sticking to being a die-hard, 3-way speaker only type of 2 channel listener. I have a set of JBL 3-way speakers with 12" woofers and the bass is some of the best I have heard in this room. To the point (on some music such as classic, or hard rock) where I don't care about the modern notions of 3 way speakers not being AC ( Audiophilically Correct). Some key hints being, something like the familiar and rather tasteful bass line in Elton John's, "Rocket Man," as an example.

We often hear the best idea is to relieve the main speakers of bass duty and send the lower frequencies to the subwoofer, which often times, is a single driver. At 80hz and above in some cases, and now we have a single driver handling more than just sub bass and up into the mid-bass frequencies and this seems a rather erroneous trade off to me. It seems if there is both mid-bass and sub-bass happening at the same time, we're kind of inflicting the same type of condition on another driver that we are trying to relieve from the mains, albeit different frequencies. I know this is wrong because the audiophiles tell me so and why but, I have heard so many systems with music with great low end, that manages to wash out the mid bass, at least to some extent, and it's usually that from the bass guitar or some of that mid-bass ambience. It makes me wonder how many dimensions of the overall soundstage are these measurements actually taking into account.

Finally, I know I am wrong about this and when I read why I am wrong, I understand why, technically. But when someone plays back music I am ultimately familiar with that they have calibrated with auto EQ and I am missing key bits and they just dismiss it as some artifact of my unwashed listening habits (which has included a lot of live music), I have to question their experience. Not with the equipment, so much as the music itself.
Mr Boat
Are you trying to insinuate I'm a bassaholic or something? :p

Okay, okay. I like lots of bass. I can no longer deny it. There ain't no blappy bass in my house though!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I think you're right. I was getting that exaggerated mid-bass with no filtering. I think what I was after is pretty far from flat... :p
Flat is more accurate.

But a lot of people don't like totally FLAT and totally anechoic.

A lot of people think totally FLAT is totally BORING. :D

What' I'm after is crystal clear detailed midrange and treble, but also hot fun bigger-than-life bass.

So I guess that means I like accurate midrange and treble, but not exactly accurate bass. I like to have more fun when it comes to the bass. :D
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
When you remove the metal jumpers on the Ultra towers, will that completely separate the midrange/treble XO from the bass XO?

If that's the case (like with the RBH SV-6500 and older SX-8300 towers and NHT Classic Four tower), you could use a subwoofer amp to power the bass section of your Ultra towers. That way audyssey can get you that accurate flat midrange and treble, but the bass section is all yours to have fun with since you are a bass whore. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I did disable Audyssey and took careful measurements and posted them. Direct mode defeats Audyssey. I'm waiting to see if ATL will show up and see what he says. He uses a mini to tame the worst of his peaks and nulls, then runs Audyssey. His response graph looks amazing.

I used 1/12 smoothing. The only charts I posted with my subs on were the last 2.
Then what you got in the 15-200 Hz is similar to mine. Are you going to try minidisp? I highly doubt it can do more than 2 dB improvement on top of Audyssey. To me that's not worth it and most likely not audible, but I still plan on trying it on one of my 2 channel systems.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
When you remove the metal jumpers on the Ultra towers, will that completely separate the midrange/treble XO from the bass XO?

If that's the case (like with the RBH SV-6500 and older SX-8300 towers and NHT Classic Four tower), you could use a subwoofer amp to power the bass section of your Ultra towers. That way audyssey can get you that accurate flat midrange and treble, but the bass section is all yours to have fun with since you are a bass whore. :D
Oh you evil genius you! Removing the jumpers does separate, at least it did with my bookshelves. I haven't removed the jumpers on my towers yet. That sounds like a pretty cool solution, but I think I need to do a lot more homework before I go disconnecting passive crossovers and bypassing them.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Slumlord
Then what you got in the 15-200 Hz is similar to mine. Are you going to try minidisp? I highly doubt it can do more than 2 dB improvement on top of Audyssey. To me that's not worth it and most likely not audible, but I still plan on trying it on one of my 2 channel systems.
I have the mini so I might try and tackle it. If I were working right now I wouldn't have time for stuff like this, but I'm not so I have time on my hands. Honestly it keeps me busy and that's welcome. I'm not over here twitching, sweating and swearing at stuff. If it starts becoming un-fun I'll drop it. I think I have it pretty decent just the way it is and can stop and be very happy with my system.
 
A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
When you remove the metal jumpers on the Ultra towers, will that completely separate the midrange/treble XO from the bass XO?

If that's the case (like with the RBH SV-6500 and older SX-8300 towers and NHT Classic Four tower), you could use a subwoofer amp to power the bass section of your Ultra towers. That way audyssey can get you that accurate flat midrange and treble, but the bass section is all yours to have fun with since you are a bass whore. :D
Isn't sub a number of times more powerful that sub section in SVS towers? Can't it be a bit dangerous to use sub amp here?
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Oh you evil genius you! Removing the jumpers does separate, at least it did with my bookshelves. I haven't removed the jumpers on my towers yet. That sounds like a pretty cool solution, but I think I need to do a lot more homework before I go disconnecting passive crossovers and bypassing them.
Definitely ask SVS about this.

I've asked the RBH engineering department a few times to make sure on this regarding the SX-8300, SX-6300, and now SV-6500. Removing the jumpers will completely separate the Passive Mid/Treble XO from the Passive Bass XO. And this will indeed allow you full control of the Bass if you power it with a subwoofer Amp.

I know you can do the same thing on the NHT Classic Four towers.

Now I'm wondering if you can do this with ANY tower that are BI-AMP capable!

I think the Philharmonic-3 and Salk towers are also like this.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Can't it be a bit dangerous to use sub amp here?
Not really.

But then again, any external amp can blow any speaker if you are not careful. :D

Just don't use a 2,000W sub amp on speakers rated for 200W. :D

For example, my speakers are rated for up to 500W, so I would use a 200-500W sub amp.

The SVS Ultra towers are rated for up to 300W, so I would use a 200-300W sub amp - if the engineers at SVS think that it is okay to do this (like with the RBH and NHT towers).
 
A

Andrein

Senior Audioholic
Not really.

But then again, any external amp can blow any speaker if you are not careful. :D

Just don't use a 2,000W sub amp on speakers rated for 200W. :D

For example, my speakers are rated for up to 500W, so I would use a 200-500W sub amp.

The SVS Ultra towers are rated for up to 300W, so I would use a 200-300W sub amp - if the engineers at SVS think that it is okay to do this (like with the RBH and NHT towers).
I guess what is safe for sub is not safe for SVS sub section. If you start using sub amp for SVS, SVS sub section becomes the weakest chain in the system.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
Definitely ask SVS about this.

I've asked the RBH engineering department a few times to make sure on this regarding the SX-8300, SX-6300, and now SV-6500. Removing the jumpers will completely separate the Passive Mid/Treble XO from the Passive Bass XO. And this will indeed allow you full control of the Bass if you power it with a subwoofer Amp.

I know you can do the same thing on the NHT Classic Four towers.

Now I'm wondering if you can do this with ANY tower that are BI-AMP capable!

I think the Philharmonic-3 and Salk towers are also like this.
This is a bad idea. What did SVS (or whichever brand) implement for the woof to mid passive crossover, a LR4 type presumably? Regardless, with passive crossovers, once you start giving one side more power than the other you'll inevitably shift crossover points and get less than flat summing at the 'new' crossover frequency.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
This is a bad idea. What did SVS (or whichever brand) implement for the woof to mid passive crossover, a LR4 type presumably? Once you start giving one side more power than the other you'll inevitably shift crossover points and get less than flat summing at the 'new' crossover frequency.
That's why before doing anything, he would have to check with SVS engineering.

Like I said, RBH and NHT have been doing this for a long time. I remember NHT doing this with their Classic Four towers about 20 years ago.

But I have no idea about SVS or any other company unless the speaker engineers/designers fully approve.
 

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