Is anything wrong with my Anthem MCA-525?

[Andrein]

These time delays that TLS mentioned seem to be a timer IC. Those timer ICs typically have the time set by an external RC circuit.....so if the timing is off, that would suggest to me that the R or C is off on the external control circuit. Obviously, the cap would be much more likely to be out of spec.

But, again, if this were me, my amp, my $, the Anthem website clearly states "30 DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE" and I would personally be using that offer to get myself out of a possible bad situation. Basically "this amp does not meet my expectations at this price point".

I like how this amp sounds. I changed 4 amps in the last 2 months. Monilith 5 - not designed for uk, but they did not bother to warn me and shipped. Then emotiva xpa 5, 2 mca 525. I hope to get a solution for this amp.

But do you have good alternatives with 5ch, low distortion, class a, ab in this price range?

 

[PENG]

These time delays that TLS mentioned seem to be a timer IC. Those timer ICs typically have the time set by an external RC circuit.....so if the timing is off, that would suggest to me that the R or C is off on the external control circuit. Obviously, the cap would be much more likely to be out of spec.

But, again, if this were me, my amp, my $, the Anthem website clearly states "30 DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE" and I would personally be using that offer to get myself out of a possible bad situation. Basically "this amp does not meet my expectations at this price point".

I agree with your logic, just that I can't resist troubleshooting his popping issue. I am trying to figure out a way to simulate the TLSG time delay relay just for another quick experiment.

 

[PENG]

I like how this amp sounds. I changed 4 amps in the last 2 months. Monilith 5 - not designed for uk, but they did not bother to warn me and shipped. Then emotiva xpa 5, 2 mca 525. I hope to get a solution for this amp.

But do you have good alternatives with 5ch, low distortion, class a, ab in this price range?

How about Parasound?
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/parasound-new-classic-5250v2-multichannel-amplifier-for-the-home-theater/

or Outlaw
http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000

 

[PENG]

Hello Andrein, I just edited my post#37, if you are still interested in trying that little experiment. I hope I got it right this time.

 

[Andrein]

As I said, in you case maybe the time delay is not long enough in our case so the relay clicks in a little too soon. There is one design change in the MCA525 from the previous MCA50. They now share the two power supplies for all 5 channels, that means the cap bank is now much larger and it will take a little longer for them to settle down when first powered on.

Please do an experiment as follow:

1. Select auto (MCA525).
2. Turn on your system normally, i.e. source, pre-amp, power amp and listen to something at moderate volume to trigger it on so you can see the blue light (MCA525).
3. After 10 seconds or longer, turn down the volume so you can hear any pops easily.
4. Now turn off the power amp and listen for "pop".
5. Repeat steps 2 and 3.
6. Wait 1 to 2 seconds maximum and turn it back on and listen carefully for pop, at that point you won't have the blue light but the amp output is still there and if the pre-amp volume is turned up it will still be playing sound.

In steps 4 and 6 you should not hear that "pop", or at least the "pop" should be much quieter.
The idea is to try and get the amp to the point where is is more or less, though not totally in stable state when you turn it on and off.

If you use the time delayed relay previously suggested, you get to control the time delay so you can make sure that by the time the relay contact connects/disconnects the speakers the amp would be in steady state condition for sure. This experiment is not going to match that exactly but at least get close to it. I timed my MCA20 and found the "ON" delay was about 2 seconds and "OFF" delay was about 5 seconds. So even without the blue light, the amp output will not ramp down to 0 for about 5 seconds. So at the 1 second mark, as far as the speaker is concerned, the output is still close to being maintained, or "ON" and if you turn it back on now, it should be almost like having that time delay relay to connect the speakers after there is enough time for the amp to reach steady state.

If you can still hear the same "pop" in step 4 and 6, then the time delay device TLSGuy suggested is probably not going to work for you either. Then you can either live with that quiet pop, or return it and get another amp.

Hi. So it is about 2 sec on and 4 off... Though Anthem replied saying there is no relay in 525 at all. For sound quality reason...But i can hear something happening there... Prob the guy is not real support but salesman. What if i just use some tactile switch to connect speakers 2 sec after switching amp on and disconnect just before turning it off?

 

[Andrein]

How about Parasound?
http://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/power-amplifier/parasound-new-classic-5250v2-multichannel-amplifier-for-the-home-theater/

or Outlaw
http://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000

Sorry for me low distortion is the main thing. Thats is why i chose anthem. Also after emotiva i am afraid of cheap amps. Unfortunately i have high sensitivity to distortion. It is almost physical and definitely mental.

 

[Andrein]

This page actually says no relays. They put some other guards they say.

https://www.anthemav.com/products-current/series=mca-series-gen2/model=mca-525/page=overview

 

[PENG]

This page actually says no relays. They put some other guards they say.

https://www.anthemav.com/products-current/series=mca-series-gen2/model=mca-525/page=overview

Good find! That explains why the slight pop sound. So that settles it. They can minimize the inrush but not eliminate it completely. My Adcom made more than a slight pop when it was turned off, again. They also didn't believe in adding out relay or capacitors. If done right, output relay should not introduce distortion, but it is hard to argue that a direct path with minimum components in between is preferred, theoretically anyway. That's why I don't recommend adding that external time delay device. If I were you I would just put up with that quiet pop noise.

 

[Andrein]

I th

Good find! That explains why the slight pop sound. So that settles it. They can minimize the inrush but not eliminate it completely. My Adcom made more than a slight pop when it was turned off, again. They also didn't believe in adding out relay or capacitors. If done right, output relay should not introduce distortion, but it is hard to argue that a direct path with minimum components in between is preferred, theoretically anyway. That's why I don't recommend adding that external time delay device. If I were you I would just put up with that quiet pop noise.

I think i will leave it as is. The amp sound great. At least better than anything i had. Thank you and everyone for your help.

I might just diy some manual switch in future just in case. Tbh dont want any relay either. Will do it myself.

 

[Andrein]

Btw my Monolith 5 is still on sale. Let me know if anyone interested.

 

[Cos]

Anthem Amps should not have POP. I would check to make sure everything is connected correctly, which I assume it is, and then return/exchange. I have had Anthem Amps in the past and never had those types of issues.

 

[PENG]

Anthem Amps should not have POP. I would check to make sure everything is connected correctly, which I assume it is, and then return/exchange. I have had Anthem Amps in the past and never had those types of issues.

I still have an Anthem amp and I have been saying the same thing you are saying now but then he found out this new generation of MCA series no longer use output relays. Anthem's literature would say that's for more pure/direct signal path, but in reality probably is part of cost offsetting. Without some sort of isolation, unless they control the inrush currents (both transformer and capacitors) really well, if your speakers and ears are sensitive you are going to hear something in a quiet room. That is made worse because in this newer version, they have also decided to share the two power supply by all channels, so now there are even more capacitance for the main speakers if they happened to have lower impedance and/or dc resistance than the surrounds.

I can't technically argue against the benefits of direct coupled without isolation though I prefer to have it than without because I do not believe in real world a well implemented relay isolation would degrade the sound, not audibly for sure. There are many high end amps that have output relay with specs superior to that of the lower mid range MCA amplifiers, though even the MCA has negligible low THD that should also mean nothing in real world applications by humans.

 

[Andrein]

I still have an Anthem amp and I have been saying the same thing you are saying now but then he found out this new generation of MCA series no longer use output relays. Anthem's literature would say that's for more pure/direct signal path, but in reality probably is part of cost offsetting. Without some sort of isolation, unless they control the inrush currents (both transformer and capacitors) really well, if your speakers and ears are sensitive you are going to hear something in a quiet room. That is made worse because in this newer version, they have also decided to share the two power supply by all channels, so now there are even more capacitance for the main speakers if they happened to have lower impedance and/or dc resistance than the surrounds.

I can't technically argue against the benefits of direct coupled without isolation though I prefer to have it than without because I do not believe in real world a well implemented relay isolation would degrade the sound, not audibly for sure. There are many high end amps that have output relay with specs superior to that of the lower mid range MCA amplifiers, though even the MCA has negligible low THD that should also mean nothing in real world applications by humans.

Hi. Can you give me any example of amp with lower than mca 525 distortion, relay, class a, ab, 5 chan, at least 200w pch, with absolutely silent transformers with dealer in UK in the same price range. The ones you gave before tbh are not superior to mca.

 

[TLS Guy]

I still have an Anthem amp and I have been saying the same thing you are saying now but then he found out this new generation of MCA series no longer use output relays. Anthem's literature would say that's for more pure/direct signal path, but in reality probably is part of cost offsetting. Without some sort of isolation, unless they control the inrush currents (both transformer and capacitors) really well, if your speakers and ears are sensitive you are going to hear something in a quiet room. That is made worse because in this newer version, they have also decided to share the two power supply by all channels, so now there are even more capacitance for the main speakers if they happened to have lower impedance and/or dc resistance than the surrounds.

I can't technically argue against the benefits of direct coupled without isolation though I prefer to have it than without because I do not believe in real world a well implemented relay isolation would degrade the sound, not audibly for sure. There are many high end amps that have output relay with specs superior to that of the lower mid range MCA amplifiers, though even the MCA has negligible low THD that should also mean nothing in real world applications by humans.

Or they could design an amp that does not send out thumps turning on and off. All these posts just make me appreciate Quad amps more and more. No Quad amp has ever done this. Not the 303 from 1969, not the 405 series, not the 606 or 909. I don't know about later versions, as I have not evaluated them. None of the amps have relays.

In the end this is all a failure of design and selling products not properly fit for purpose.

The other thing is all we get from manufacturers these days is marketing bilge out of the back of someones neck who really knows absolutely nothing about the product. Instead we used to get a full circuit. In this case we would know the issues and think of ways to solve them.

These amps are staying. I don't believe I could find a set of amps better suited to powering my system anywhere.

And yes, here is a full circuit in the USER manual, the way things should be!

 

[highfigh]

Or they could design an amp that does not send out thumps turning on and off. All these posts just make me appreciate Quad amps more and more. No Quad amp has ever done this. Not the 303 from 1969, not the 405 series, not the 606 or 909. I don't know about later versions, as I have not evaluated them. None of the amps have relays.

In the end this is all a failure of design and selling products not properly fit for purpose.

The other thing is all we get from manufacturers these days is marketing bilge out of the back of someones neck who really knows absolutely nothing about the product. Instead we used to get a full circuit. In this case we would know the issues and think of ways to solve them.

These amps are staying. I don't believe I could find a set of amps better suited to powering my system anywhere.


And yes, here is a full circuit in the USER manual, the way things should be!

For decades, the recommended procedure for turning on a preamp and power amp has been 'preamp and any processors before the power amp, because telling people the equipment has 'direct-coupled circuits' became a marketing device and DC could pass when the preamp was powered on or off. It also means people's speakers died when an amp had certain component failures and brands like Phase Linear, Sansui and some Harman-Kardon models became known for this. When some of them failed, it was like a chain reaction inside. When Sansui was making the R series of receivers (R30, R50, R70 and R90), we joked that they used those output transistors in order to protect the fuses.



Now, putting the schematic in the manual would make people look at it like it's a ball bearing with bright light reflecting from it.

 

[PENG]

Hi. So it is about 2 sec on and 4 off... Though Anthem replied saying there is no relay in 525 at all. For sound quality reason...But i can hear something happening there... Prob the guy is not real support but salesman. What if i just use some tactile switch to connect speakers 2 sec after switching amp on and disconnect just before turning it off?

Mine is a MCA20, the new version is MCA225, the 2 channel version of your 525. If Anthem says no relay in the new 225/525 version then there are no relays, period. I don't believe the sound quality thing, to me it is a function of cost. Isolation costs money. Surely you can minimize inrush but that kind of scheme will inevitably introduce other potentially theoretical negative effects.

If you can find a good way to isolate the speakers before turning on and off the amp it may help but make sure you have the preamp turn way down first before switching. If the pop is a quiet one, I don't know why it bothers you. As I said, my Adcom amp did that too, every users of the older Adcom GFA amps should know that and as far as I could read online, most of them were/are happy owners.

 

[PENG]

Hi. Can you give me any example of amp with lower than mca 525 distortion, relay, class a, ab, 5 chan, at least 200w pch, with absolutely silent transformers with dealer in UK in the same price range. The ones you gave before tbh are not superior to mca.

Those I listed before indeed had higher THD but in practice whether the THD is 0.01% or 0.005% won't make any audible difference and I was not referring to specs published on the manufacturers websites. I have the impression that you maybe putting too much emphasis on website distortions specs.

Let's look at some examples:

MCA525 specs: 0.001% at 1 kHz, 0.015% at 20 kHz, at 100W, Note: That's 44% of full rated output.

My Denon AVR-3805 was probably specified 0.05% THD, but bench tested 0.001% at 1 kHz, 69.8W, that's 58% of full load, so better than the MCA525 on paper right?

Given such a low THD at 1 kHz at 100W really doesn't mean much for several reasons such as:
- THD/IMD alone don't necessarily determine the overall sound quality.
- Everything else being equal, humans can't tell the difference between 0.05% and 0.001% THD
- THD+N/IMD changes over the audible 20-20,00 Hz range, also varies with power output.

I am sure you have done your research to know there are more reasons than what I listed above, why you cannot just compare manufacturers website specs, though it is reasonable to compare those among the same manufacturer's own product line, such as comparing the MCA to the P series, both by Anthem.

Now, for amps you can buy in the UK that has comparable or better published specs:

Bryston SST amps: <0.005% THD/or IMD, typically 0.002%, full bandwidth at full rated output.

Cambridge Audio 851E: <0.001%, 1 kHz, <0.005% 20 - 20,000 Hz.

I am sure there are other examples for amps that might have specified lower THD than your Anthem including but that's really not my point.

My point is that you can't just read the marketing information, i.e. from product brochures, website specs etc. If you do, you will be sticking with your Anthem MCA525 for sure even though similarly price amps such as ATI's (highly regarded on this forum), Parasound Halo series, Rotel's RMB series; and even Anthem's own P series that costs a lot more with a little bit better published THD at 1 kHz, 0.0007 vs 0.001% that could be your viable alternatives.

Again, in the same lab, the AVtech, the MCA225's THD+N was actually tested slightly worse than the AVR-3805 that is just a 7.1 channel receiver with both prepro and power amp build in, though on paper the Anthem shows much better numbers. To be clear, I am not suggesting the 3805 is a equally good or better sounding amp than the MCA amps, not at all. I am just making the point on comparing distortion specs. From my own experience though, if I can't see my amps, I could be listening to the receiver thinking that I am listening to my Halo amp and Cambridge Audio preamp, at lest that's the case in my systems using either the LS50+sub or R900 speakers.

 

[PENG]

Or they could design an amp that does not send out thumps turning on and off. All these posts just make me appreciate Quad amps more and more. No Quad amp has ever done this. Not the 303 from 1969, not the 405 series, not the 606 or 909. I don't know about later versions, as I have not evaluated them. None of the amps have relays.

In the end this is all a failure of design and selling products not properly fit for purpose.

The other thing is all we get from manufacturers these days is marketing bilge out of the back of someones neck who really knows absolutely nothing about the product. Instead we used to get a full circuit. In this case we would know the issues and think of ways to solve them.

These amps are staying. I don't believe I could find a set of amps better suited to powering my system anywhere.

And yes, here is a full circuit in the USER manual, the way things should be!

Would you mind posting a link to the full schematic?

 

[slipperybidness]

Hi. Can you give me any example of amp with lower than mca 525 distortion, relay, class a, ab, 5 chan, at least 200w pch, with absolutely silent transformers with dealer in UK in the same price range. The ones you gave before tbh are not superior to mca.

The THD+N for any (well designed) modern Solid State amp is going to be well below any audible levels. Period.

Any of these amps that we have been discussing will have superb THD+N specs!

 

[Andrein]

Thd might be good/same for all of them but sound quality probably not. I could probably do a better home work but after mistake with Monolit 5, then frustration from emotiva xpa 5 i just wanted to finally get the amp asap. Found their page, read a couple of reviews. Then call, good deal, next day amp at my home. And tbh i am not sure if i return it the next would sound as good as mca 525. So i will leave it.

Again many of those alternatives are not class a... Like Cambridge for instance. Bryston costs 1.5 more than mca. I am sure there are other alternatives. But for now i am settled.