The $2500 Complete System Any Newbie SHOULD Buy! (Take Advantage of Summer)

[FirstReflection]

If you're someone who's looking for the absolute best Bang-For-Your-Buck complete home theater system that you can buy right now (July 2012), you've come to the right place!

I pieced together this system for a new forum member in another thread. I went through a bunch of recommendations. And, to be sure, there are obviously still a TON of options out there to be considered.

But once I saw this list of components with the current Summer Sale pricing on some of them, I recognized that it hits a very attractive total price, it's extremely versatile and will work really well for a lot of people in a lot of different room types and setup situations, and it's honestly just a GREAT entry level system that I'd be proud to own myself!

Here it is...

Display:

Panasonic TC-P50ST50 - 50" 3D 1080p Plasma TV with "louvre" screen filter

$1100 + 67.50 shipping from Abt Electronics

The Panasonic ST50 series is almost certainly the best value in televisions right now. The picture quality is excellent, with accurate colors, high contrast, and black levels that are even deeper than last year's flagship VT30 models! The new "louvre" screen filter is actually quite effective at shedding ambient light (particularly overhead light sources) and helps this plasma retain its inky black levels under lit conditions much better than models from years past. 3D glasses are NOT included

Colors and uniformity stay perfect no matter the angle at which you're viewing this TV. It really is the best, most versatile all around choice at a very affordable price. The 50" size is good for most "typical" rooms. SMPTE would recommend sitting 6.8 feet away, but you'll still gain all the benefits from the 1080p resolution at a very reasonable 8.5' viewing distance. If you sit farther away than that, you'll want a bigger screen size

Abt.com is a fully authorized Panasonic dealer. I felt it was important to only recommend fully authorized dealers so that you will have a full manufacturer's warranty. Abt does not list the final price on their website because it is below Panasonic's MAP (Minimum Advertised Price). But once you enter your shipping address, you will see the price that I've detailed above.

Receiver:

Denon AVR-1712 - 7.1; 90 Watts/channel; 6 in/1 out HDMI 1.4; Audyssey MultEQ XT

$240 + $20 (shipping varies) from accessories4less

The AVR-1712 might be a year old, but it's an absolute steal at this price. You won't find a network connection for internet radio/streaming audio, but you can easily add your choice of set-top-box, especially with this price point. Only the lack of Apple AirPlay might make you want to drop $90 extra for the AVR-1912 instead. But that price difference can pretty much buy you an Apple TV

The AVR-1712 actually steps UP from the 1912's Audyssey MultEQ auto-setup/room EQ to Audyssey MultEQ XT (Audyssey's 2nd from the top level, only MultEQ XT32 is higher). It's a bit weird that the "lower" model gets the higher level of Audyssey, but that's the way it is! The 1712 should cover just about any person's needs very nicely. And no worries if you want to use your Panasonic ST50's 3D capabilities. The 1712 is fully packed with HDMI 1.4a.

accessories4less.com is the official online retailer for refurbished Denon products. You should not let that "refurbished" title dissuade you at all though. You still get a full 1 year warranty from Denon. This is a fully authorized dealer. I couldn't get an exact price on shipping, but it tends to be around $15-$20 on receivers.

Subwoofer:

HSU Research STF-2 - 200 Watt 10" down firing

$319 (on sale) + $43 shipping from HSU Research

The STF-2 is easily my favorite subwoofer for under $550. While it doesn't quite troll the deepest 20Hz bass notes or deliver enough output to crush your lungs just from the pressure, that super deep extension and massive output is about all it gives up to its much more expensive subwoofer brethren. This is an accurate, potent, well-controlled sub that's just as much at home playing music as it is movies. Its 17" high x 14" wide x 17" deep size is manageable in almost any room. More than any other component, the subwoofer is what makes it FEEL like you're "at the movies". The STF-2 is a monumental improvement over any HTiB "subwoofer", or any subs costing less.

Front Left/Right & Center Speakers:

Ascend Acoustics HTM-200 SE Mains & HTM-200 SE Center - compact, sealed, dual 4" drivers and superb 1" SEAS tweeter

$428 + $36 shipping (package discount) from Ascend Acoustics

There are probably more options in the speaker category than any other part of a home theater system. So why these particular Ascend Acoustics speakers? They have a unique blend of quality components, excellent sound quality and a shape and design that will work well in almost any setup.

There are a lot of different ways that folks might setup and position their speakers: on stands, sitting directly on a TV stand or shelf, pushed back against the wall behind the speakers, pulled forward into the room, stuffed into a bookshelf or entertainment unit, mounted on a wall. Obviously, not all of those positions are ideal, but the HTM-200 SE is better prepared to handle ANY placement situation well and still deliver excellent sound.

Being sealed, they can be placed close to a wall without much detriment. Being only slightly over 6" thick from front to back, they're thin enough to be wall mounted or put in a bookshelf. Having the tweeter offset from the dual 4" midrange drivers, the dispersion of the tweeter is controlled so that being close to a side wall or inside an entertainment unit isn't quite as detrimental to the sound. And speaking of the tweeter, the SEAS tweeter in these speakers is truly something special and a real cut above in terms of detail, transient response and resolution vs. anything around this price point.

Put it all together and the HTM-200 SE are just a great, versatile choice for just about anyone!

Surround Speakers:

Emotiva XRS-4.1 - Bi-pole X-Ref Series Surround Speakers

$224.10 (on sale) + free shipping from Emotiva

I prefer to follow the Dolby and THX guidelines for speaker placement and setup. These call for diffuse surround speakers placed directly to the sides of (or just slightly behind) the seats, and 2 or more feet above the heads of the listeners (when they're sitting down).

The Emotiva bi-pole surround speakers fit the bill and are a nice, fairly close sonic match for the Ascend HTM-200 SE Front speakers. With proper placement, these will envelop the listeners with ambient sound and directional sound effects, just like you'd hear in a full-sized movie theater.

Total System Price: $2477.60 (shipping included!)

Just enough left to head on over to monoprice.com and get a subwoofer cable , speaker wire , and an HDMI cable or two

Truly, this is a phenominal system for an honest $2500. If I were a newbie all over again, THIS is the system I would buy. It's not the cheapest, but every single product is a benchmark of quality and performance for the most amazing price. This system will save you money in the long run. Anything that could genuinely be called an "upgrade" will cost many multiples of these prices. I'm excited by this system. Which is really saying something given how long I've been into this home theater hobby and how many products I've gone through. I've wasted thousands and thousands of dollars over the years to learn by trial and error. Buying this system would have made me a rich man

Enjoy!

[therron]

I've been searching far and wide for a new home theater setup for my new living room I will be moving into in a month or so. I went from HTiB's as the only thing I even thought was an option, to all the way here. Anyway, I found myself with a question.

Now, for someone who has never really experienced an audiophiles' basement of dream home theater setups, and only experienced my dad's ~8 year old HTiB cheap setup, what is the difference I'd experience versus the HTiB budget price of $700 with the $400 Energy Take Classic 5.1 with a $200-300 A/V receiver versus a setup that you have built here for ~$1300? That's nearly twice the price, and while my original budget for the speakers were $700, if I can justify the $1300 build you created out of passion (<3), I would do so.

So like I said, what would be the difference to someone who doesn't have the ear for it, but feels like he has a hidden audiophile waiting to pop out from within, hear from the $700 build to this $1300 build?

p.s. I'm thinking of getting the Samsung UN60EH6000 instead of the plasma you suggested so it would be better for gaming on, as gaming on a plasma is not a good idea, right?

Sorry for my newbieness!

Thanks!

[FirstReflection]

Hi, therron!

Welcome to the forum! I'm really happy that you found my post here of interest, and I'm more than happy to offer my opinion in answering your questions. Please don't apologize at all! We all started in the exact same situation as yourself

And really, it's because of that shared experience that I made this post and suggested these products. Like you say, the audio portion is around twice the price of a typical HTiB or entry-level package system. And those systems are often considered a very good value for the price. The Energy Take 5.1 speaker package is certainly not "bad" by any means! It's actually pretty impressive. But there are some really good reasons to step up to a price point and a system like the one I've put together here. And that's really the meat of your question, isn't it?

My first surround sound system was a HTiB. This is going back about 13 or 14years now. The internet was a different place back then But I still went online, did as much research as I could, and wound up spending about $400 on an all-in-one HTiB. And I was pretty happy with it...for about 3 months

Now, something like the Energy Take speakers are better than the speakers that I got with that HTiB. So the gap might not be quite as wide as going from a current all-in-one system like the popular, but pretty crappy sounding Samsung systems or the LG systems or what-have-you. The current Onkyo, Denon or Yamaha all-in-one systems are fairly decent, and probably a bit better than the HTiB that I bought 13 years ago.

But it's important to realize that you really are talking about the absolute minimum with these $500-$700 systems. I won't say they're "bad", because they're not! They're certainly a big step up over the speakers that are built into any flat panel TV, and they're a clear step up over something like a Bose Acoustimass system, even though the Bose systems cost well over $1000 most of the time! That right there is why every forum and message board will always yell at you to avoid Bose like the plague! They are just a terrible, terrible rip off.

But getting back to the point, what do you get for around double the price?

First and foremost is the subwoofer. Going from a HTiB subwoofer or a small 5.1 package subwoofer to the STF-2 that I've recommended here is a HUGE leap up in performance. The STF-2 plays much lower, has much more impact, much more tactile "hit you in the chest" FEELING. And it's a more accurate subwoofer with much higher resolution so that you can actually listen to music and hear clear, articulate bass that sounds much much more like real life. The subwoofer alone is about $365 (at the current sale price and including shipping), but I can promise you that it is SO worth while. More than anything else, having that strong, clear, tactile bass is what makes it FEEL as though you're "at the movies". The HTiB and small package system subs just don't come anywhere close. So why waste the money in the first place? In my own experience all those years back, the HTiB sub was the most obviously disappointing component. I wanted to upgrade that sucker pretty much right away!

Are there decent subs that cost a bit less than the STF-2? Sort of. I mean, Energy makes a pretty nice 10" sub as well that goes for a lower price. But here's the thing. I tend to think of certain products as being like "checkpoints" in terms of price/performance ratio. Every once in a while, a product will come along that rather clearly outperforms everything that costs the same or less, and it comes darn close or even equals a lot of competing products that cost more. It's also a product that demands you pay at least around twice its price, and often a lot more than that, in order to get something that is genuinely and clearly "better" in multiple ways.

The STF-2 is a "checkpoint" product for me. So too are the Rythmik FV12 (sadly discontinued and I'm not sure when the replacement will be available) and the big brother of the STF-2, the HSU VTF-2 MK4. Those are $550 (plus shipping) subs that are the least expensive subs that I consider capable of "doing it all". By "doing it all", I mean that they can play right down to 20Hz, while staying clean, clear, articulate and full of tactile impact.

The STF-2 only gives up a little bit of the lowest of the low extension, and it gives up some sheer output loudness to those $550 subs. But what makes the STF-2 a "checkpoint" for me is that it plays lower, louder, cleaner and just plain better than pretty much anything costing less or the same. And you HAVE to step up to the $550 price point to get anything genuinely "better", IMO. And vs. the HTiB subs, it's just a monumental difference.

For the speakers, the surrounds are easy to describe their value because they are a diffuse bi-pole design, which you just won't find in any HTiB or small package system. A lot of people mistakenly think that the "surround" speakers are supposed to be "back" speakers. They're not. They're "surrounds". They're meant to go to the sides, not the back, and they're meant to be 2-3 feet above you head when you're sitting down. The idea is to mimick the surround speakers that you'd find in a movie theater. Those are on the side walls and way up high. But in a movie theater, there are also multiple surround speakers lining the side walls. Having all those speakers creates a very diffuse and enveloping sound that "blankets" the audience. Using diffuse speakers like the Emotiva XRS-4.1 and positioning them correctly better mimicks the movie theater sound

Now, the front speakers might be the hardest to explain in words, but next to the subwoofer, they're the most obvious when you simply hear them for yourself.

You say you're not really familiar with listening to a great home theater. But I'm betting you've been to a movie theater! And you've probably been to a concert or a live music performance of some kind. And obviously, you hear sounds every day! So you're an experienced listener whether you think you are or not You might not be an "audiophile" yet. You might not be a critical listener yet. You might not be able to describe the differences in sound that you hear in audio jargon terms and point out differences on a graph or by labelling them with exact frequencies and Hz. But you CAN pick out when something doesn't sound like real life. You can do that easily! And you can tell when a movie doesn't sound like the movie theater, and when music doesn't sound like it does when you listen to it being performed live.

With a HTiB or a small speaker package, to put it simply, there's just a lot "missing". HTiB and very small speakers often cannot play low enough to properly blend with the subwoofer, so you end up with a "hole" where the speakers can't play low enough and the subwoofer can't play high enough. Much worse than that though, very inexpensive speakers distort. There are many, many forms of distortion. But an easy way to think about it is like this:

every recording sends a signal to the speakers. It tells the speakers to play a certain note for a certain length of time at a certain volume of loudness relative to all the other notes. Any deviation away from what the signal is telling the speakers to do is a form of distortion.

So the worst would be to just play the wrong notes! That's not very common. But it IS common that additional notes that aren't actually in the recording get produced. This is harmonic and intermodulation distortion, and it's also sometimes just plain "noise".

There's a funny thing about human hearing. When we say that something sounds "loud", what we're almost always actually responding to is harmonic distortion and/or noise. When a very distortion free speaker plays very very loud, it doesn't sound "loud" to us. It just sounds "closer". It's distortion that bothers our ears. When the sound is "clean", it doesn't seem to get "louder", just "closer".

Cheap speakers will very often fail to produce the notes in the signal at the correct relative loudness to all the other notes. This is called the "frequency response". Tell the cheap speaker to play a certain frequency (aka. note) at a certain volume level, and it might play it too loud or too quiet. If you want to hear an accurate reproduction of your recordings, the speaker's frequency response has to be accurate!

The most challenging thing is to get the note to start and stop exactly when the signal says. This is called the "transient response". The drivers in any speaker physically move. So they have to react very quickly when the signal tells them to start producing a note, and then they have to stop on a dime when the signal says, "STOP!" That's difficult because of inertia. Once the driver is moving, it wants to KEEP moving!

So put it all together, and that's what makes the more expensive speakers worth the extra money. They have more accurate frequency response. They have less distortion and noise. And the transient response is where you can easily start to spend A LOT of money, chasing after very small improvements that are very difficult to come by. Audiophiles talk about "air" between the notes and "delineation" of one instrument or sound from another. That's largely due to the transient response, as well as having very low distortion, obviously

The HTM-200 speakers are another "checkpoint". More than that though, they have a unique shape and design that makes them extremely versatile. Far more versatile than most other speakers. Being sealed, quite thin (just a bit over 6 inches from front to back), and having controlled dispersion of the tweeter due to the offset placement means that the HTM-200 can be placed in almost any position and still sound very good!

continued...

[FirstReflection]

With most "free standing" speakers (any traditional "bookshelf" or "satellite" speaker, or any "tower" speaker), if you put them close to a wall, you'll get a big, bloated sound in the lower midrange (the lower end of the male voice). So most speakers will sound "chesty" or "boomy" if you put them near a wall. This is because many free standing speakers have a port - literally a hole in the cabinet somewhere. That port/hole acts like the body of an acoustic guitar, amplifying the sound by using resonance. But resonance is a double edged sword. It makes the speakers sound louder and lets them play deeper, but you're hearing the body of the speaker itself resonate at that point. So you lose some control over when the notes stop ringing (transient response) and also the relative loudness of those deeper notes.

More than just the design though, it's also the quality of the components. Ascend uses very high quality drivers - much higher quality than you'll often find at their asking price. The tweeter is especially good at this price.

Bottom line, these speaker sound more like real life and more like a movie theater. Will you know it for sure without the HTiB speakers to compare? I guess not. There's really no way for you to hear how obvious it is without comparing them with your own ears! But if you trust me at all, just know that it's a very obvious improvement!

Perhaps the best way that I can explain why you should spend twice as much right off the bat is by saying that it will save you money in the long run. When you get a HTiB, or a small, inexpensive speaker package like the Energy Take package, they can certainly be impressive and very enjoyable. But it really does not take long at all before you notice that the subwoofer especially just doesn't sound or feel like a movie theater. And if you're a "budding audiophile" like yourself, it won't take long at all to notice that those systems just don't sound like real life.

Those realizations are going to lead you to look for an upgrade. So already, you've spent $500-$700, and now you're looking to spend more. The problem is, a lot of people go to a 2nd "stop gap" system because they've already spent that $500-$700 before. Or they'll way overspend without really having learned how to listen critically, and without really knowing what they should be listening for when they're hearing much much more expensive speakers!

What makes this system that I've put together here so worth while, IMO, is that it gives you an excellent entry into genuinely accurate, high resolution, and just plain "good" sound. This is a system with which you can learn how to listen critically. And more than anything, this is a system that you won't have to replace or upgrade for a good long time! If and when you DO eventually want to upgrade, you'll find that a genuine upgrade comes at a MUCH higher price point. We're talking about $1200 subwoofers and $2000/pair speakers sort of territory. Not that there aren't a lot of very good products that fall in between this entry level and that. But what I'm saying is that this system is good enough that when you compare it to more expensive systems, you really will have a good comparison, where you'll have to listen critically in order to truly justify the higher priced system!

When you go from a HTiB to this system, you don't have to listen critically. It's really obvious that the subwoofer is just leagues better. It's really obvious that the front HTM-200 SE speakers sound much clearer, free from distortion, and closer to real life. It's really obvious that the Emotiva XRS-4.1 bi-pole speakers (properly placed) sound more like a full-sized movie theater. But when you go from this system to something more expensive, it's more like, "yeah, the more expensive system obviously plays louder. But is it truly "better" all around? Is louder the only thing that is obviously better here?"

When you have to ask yourself that kind of question, that makes this system a really high value. There's no question, bigger speakers can play louder. Bigger subwoofers can play louder. This system here isn't going to be ideal for someone with a very large room who NEEDS louder output. But for most "typical" rooms, this system will work really well.

So that's why I think any newbie should buy this system instead of a HTiB. I've been in the exact same place. I bought the HTiB. Then I upgraded that system. Then I upgraded again! It took be going through 3 full systems before I got to something that I would consider to be on the same level of quality as the system I've listed here! And believe me, it cost A LOT more money in the long run to go through all of that before getting to this point! So I figure, hey, maybe some folks can skip right past all of the common, less expensive systems that I only wound up regretting. If I had purchased a system like this at the very beginning? Wow. I would have saved A LOT of money in the long run. That's the value here. And I'm pretty sure most folks can understand that reasoning

As for the TV, Samsung certainly makes some very nice TVs. They tend to do very well in terms of accurate color with good contrast and black levels. For me, the biggest problem I have are the glossy screens. I really can't stand them! But many, many folks are not bothered by the glossy screens, so that's really up to you.

Gaming on Panasonic's plasmas is not a problem. You might notice some "ghost" images left over during the first few hundred hours of use until the plasma TV dims a little bit. This can be kinda scary. I certainly freaked out a little bit when I saw this "image retention" on my Pioneer Kuro plasma when it was new! But it is NOT "burn-in". It is NOT permanent. And after the plasma TV "settles in" after a few hundred hours of use, any such "ghost" images go away completely. The worries about "burn-in" truly have been fixed

The 60" size is certainly nice to have! It all boils down to how far away you are sitting, really. Take the distance from your eyes to the screen in inches and multiply that by 0.615 to get the SMPTE recommended diagonal screen size. For example, if the distance from eyes to screen is 7.5 feet, that's

90 inches x 0.615 = 55.35 inches

So a 55" TV is perfect for a 7.5 foot viewing distance according to SMPTE. Conversely, you can take your screen size and divide it by 0.615 to get the SMPTE recommended viewing distance (in inches )

If you multiply the viewing distance (or divide the screen size) by 0.488, you'll get the minimum screen size (or maximum viewing distance) that you should use for that given distance (or screen size). For example, with that same 7.5 foot viewing distance:

90 inches x 0.488 = 43.92 inches

That'd be the smallest screen size you'd ever want to use from 7.5 feet away.

Conversely, with a 55" TV:

55 inches divided by 0.488 = 112.7 inches or 9.4 feet.

So with a 55" TV, the farthest away you'd ever want to sit is 9.4 feet.

For your 60" TV size, SMPTE would recommend that you sit 8.13 feet away. And the farthest you'd ever want to sit away from a 60" TV is 10.25 feet

I don't like edge-LED lighting. It is always uneven, and if you're sitting anywhere off center, the colors and contrast always degrade. The best plasmas are always better in terms of even illumination of the entire screen, and perfect colors and contrast no matter what angle you're viewing the TV from. With the new "louvre" screen filter, Panasonic's ST50, GT50 and VT50 plasmas all do pretty well if you have overhead lighting. In the past, plasmas definitely "washed out" - the lovely, deep blacks turned grey and the image overall just looked dim and dull - under any sort of lighting that was brighter than "dim" or "dark". But the new "louvre" filter really works quite well. So Panasonic's plasmas look quite good under "normal" room lighting now. And in the dark, there's no contest - unless you're paying a MUCH higher price for a truly superb LED-LCD with full-array LED backlighting and local dimming.

Overall, I just don't think the Panasonic ST50 plasmas can be beat for picture quality and value. The 60" version costs a few hundred more than the Samsung LED-LCD that you linked to. Personally I think the ST50 is worth the slightly higher price. And check out Abt.com for sure. They have the lowest online Panasonic plasma prices from any fully authorized dealer.

I hope all of this helps! I truly do not mean to "bash" any HTiB or small package system buyers. They CAN be quite good. I'm not knocking them for their value. But the simple fact is that if you're interested enough in home theater to come to a forum or message board, you care enough about quality that the system I've put together here will be worth the extra money! If you're interested enough to come here, I can pretty much promise you that you're going to want to upgrade that HTiB before even a full year passes! That isn't necessarily true for a very casual listener. A casual listener might be perfectly happy with a HTiB. They'd almost certainly be completely satisfied with the Energy Take speakers. But if you're the sort of person who can even imagine noticing that your home system doesn't sound like a full-sized movie theater or a live music performance, then you're the sort of person who is going to be itching to upgrade a HTiB before long! Get this system instead, and you'll save money in the long run. It will force you to think long and hard before any future upgrades, because it's that good! It's definitely not the "be all, end all". This is still an entry level system. I want to make that VERY clear. But it's a HECK of a good starting point. And one that will allow you to learn how to listen critically, and really appreciate the finer points of audio reproduction. The HTiB is just going to end up in a box in the garage or on Craig's list Why not skip that part and just get right to the good stuff?

[jonnythan]

That's a good $2500 system. I approve.

[therron]

Wow, that was surprising and refreshingly thorough, you don't get that kind of thoughtfulness in forums these days it seems. Thanks . I remember having this kind of passion for building computers for fun, using imaginary budgets and just picking the best stuff I could for the price range, or that specific "checkpoint" as you say. So I understand fully where you are coming from as a hobbyist and know that what you said and the research you have done is far more than adequate, and I highly respect you.

I pretty much imagined it was going to be this sort of difference. Being content and enjoying what I have for what it is, versus FEELING the experience of the movie. It's almost like, instead of me buying movies to watch on my new huge screen TV with awesome special effects, I'd be buying movies to experience the thrilling sound with my new in-home movie theater, haha. The TV becomes the secondary component to the sound system, instead of the speakers just being surround-style and better than just a 2ch bookshelf speaker setup or worse, TV speakers.

However as you said, for someone who was interested or thorough enough to come to an audiophile forum and talk frequencies for research-before-purchasing, the initial rush of a brand new surround sound system will fade and I will begin to notice the lacking parts and wanting to soon upgrade yet again.

I have a random question, why the 7.1ch receiver if you only built a 5.1ch system? Would you ever add more speakers to this setup, to make it 7.1ch? Would you need to and would it sound better, with this built system?

And lastly, as a gamer I have always been scared of Plasmas and after the LCD's booming rush over the market and the Plasma burn-in scare for anything but movies I haven't really taken a second look at them since. Lately though I have been seeing a common theme of people saying that the problems that plagued Plasmas at first are now fixed. You almost make it sound like there isn't any reason to even buy an LCD, though. And here I thought my research on the TV aspect of my new living room was complete. Lol

Also I will be roughly 10 feet away from the TV. And the girlfriend and I are pretty much sold on the 60" size, bigger is better to us lol. So I picked the least feature-money-wasting 60" with 120hz and LED, although edge-lit is bad I guess? I don't care for 3D or any internet-connectivity stuff.

The living room is kind of awkward in size, if I had to guess I'd say it's like 22-25 feet in length and 12-15 feet in width. It's also closed off like a separate, long rectangular-shaped bedroom

Thanks again for your amazing hospitality FR!

[FirstReflection]

Hi, therron.

You're most welcome!

Yes, I think that anyone who really gets into a hobby just naturally starts to figure out which products represent the highest value at any given time. It's a matter of trial and error, comparison, and just sheer time spent and experience. But that's what's so great about having forums and message boards for pretty much any interest these days! If you're careful, and you take some time to research and vet the opinions that you read, you really can save yourself a lot of money in the long run, and also sort of skip past the initial regrets and learning curve a bit. Benefit from others' experience, as it were

I don't think anyone would be surprised that if you spend, like, $8000, you can get an even better audio system than this one. But that's way more money than most people want to spend when they're just starting out! Some folks are fortunate, they have the money, and they can skip right ahead to that kind of price point. But I think there are probably far more people who maybe have about $1000 they're willing to spend. My whole idea here is that if you spend just a few hundred more than that - around $1300-$1400, like you said - you can really put together something that is more than just the sum of its parts, and where each individual component is just the highest value for its price. I think most people are looking for that kind of value. I know I'm certainly willing to pay a few hundred more for just about anything if it means I'm getting the highest value, products that last longer and perform better, and where I'd have to spend significantly more in order to see any real improvement. It just isn't always easy to know what those high value products are! So that's why I wanted to try and help and point out these particular products that I feel meet those criteria.

That said, I went for the products that I think will work well for the widest variety of people and rooms. The STF-2 won't have enough output to really fill something like a great room, where a fairly large living room, kitchen and dining room are all wide open to each other. But in any sort of "typical" living room or den or bedroom is going to be perfectly fine for the STF-2. The Ascend HTM-200 SE speakers are maybe not as tiny as some people would like, but they're still compact. And because they're fairly small, and also because they are sealed and not quite as efficient in terms of loud output as some other speakers, they might not be able to play loud enough for some folks who have large rooms and maybe sit farther away from the TV and front speakers. But where the HTM-200 SE absolutely will shine for a lot of people is in their somewhat unique shape and design that allows them to be positioned in all the common ways that are usually detrimental to regular speakers. Close to a wall, sitting inside a bookshelf, sitting inside an entertainment unit, or literally mounted on the wall. The HTM-200 SE will still sound their best if you put them on stands and give them a little bit of breathing room, but they'll handle all of those other common placements a lot better than most speakers! That's why I think they're such a great, versatile choice that will work for a lot of folks where other speakers will really start to sound badly compromised in terms of audio quality.

The AVR-1712 is indeed a "7.1 receiver". That does not mean you have to use 7 speakers though. In fact, you could use just two speakers running in stereo if you wanted to.

5.1 receivers tend to be only the lowest priced products in most receiver manufacturer's lineups these days. There just isn't a lot of value in them because you're not just giving up two channels of amplification, you're giving up a lot of features and inputs, too. The AVR-1712 at its "refurbished" price from accessories4less is just a tremendous value. You might not need all 7 channels of amplification, but it's the features that make it so worth while. Audyssey MultEQ XT, 6 HDMI inputs, HD Audio support, 3D support, etc. It's a genuinely full-featured receiver that I think will work well for most people. And for $240, it's a steal! Obviously, some folks will have specific needs that the AVR-1712 doesn't meet, so they'll need to look for a different, and likely more expensive receiver. But the 1712 should cover most people's needs. So that's why I've recommended it so highly. I don't consider the lack of network connected features to be a drawback because the price is so low on the 1712 that anyone could easily opt to add an AppleTV or Roku or Boxee Box or what have you. Those set-top boxes will offer more network services and a nicer interface than most receivers anyway, so I really don't think having network features built into the receiver is all that much of a selling point.

Since you have a room that is quite long from front to back, you might, in fact, benefit from adding the 6th & 7th surround back speakers though. If you have your 60" TV set up on that 12-15 foot wall, and you're sitting about 10 feet away from it (the 60" size is a good choice for that distance, by the way. You could go even larger, actually! But, of course, the price goes up significantly for a larger size, so I think 60" is probably a very good balance of size and price for you ), then it seems as though you'll have a good 10-15 feet of space behind you. That makes you a good candidate for actually benefitting from having surround back speakers!

The regular surround sound scheme starts with 5 speakers with the surround speakers positioned up high and to the sides, as I've described. A lot of people are in a room where there isn't very much space behind the seats at all. For all of those people, there's no point at all in adding the 6th & 7th surround back speakers. The surround back speakers only become useful when you have AT LEAST about 4-5 feet of space from the back wall to the back of your seat. And even then, there's extremely little benefit. But when you have a good 10 feet or so, like you do, then you might start to notice a bit of a "gap" in the surround field directly behind you. The XRS-4.1 surround speakers will nicely wrap around you from the sides, but you might lose the sense of sounds coming from directly behind you. That's what the 6th & 7th surround back speakers are for - to fill in that "gap" and complete the sense of there truly being sound ALL around you

As I said, I like to follow the THX guidelines . You'll notice that THX recommends using diffuse surround speakers - like the XRS-4.1 - on the sides, but just regular monopole speakers for the 6th & 7th surround back speakers.

To be honest, the 6th & 7th surround back speakers really don't get used all that much. But there are a growing number of actual 7.1 soundtracks on Blu-rays, so there's more value in having those speakers than there used to be. Again, for most people who don't have a lot of space from the back wall to the back of their seat, they're still better served using just 5 speakers - even for those 7.1 Blu-ray soundtracks. When you set up the receiver, part of the process is selecting how many speakers you have. When you have 5 speakers, you set the surround back speakers to "none" in the receiver, to let the receiver know you don't have those 6th & 7th surround back speakers. When you do that, the receiver will automatically reroute the sounds in any 7.1 soundtrack so that the 6th & 7th rear channels get played by the regular 4th & 5th surround speakers on the sides. So you never "lose" any of the sound in a recording. It just gets rerouted depending on how many speakers you have

But for you, with that large space behind your seat, you'd probably benefit from putting the 6th & 7th speakers back there. It's nice to match the surround back speakers to the surround speakers so that the enveloping field of sound is nice and even and uniform. So something like the Emotiva XRM-4.1 satellite speakers would be perfect. At $161.10 (on sale), they don't break the bank, and they'll perfectly match the XRS-4.1 bi-pole surround speakers that you'll have on the sides!

[FirstReflection]

On TVs:

I'm not against ALL LCD TVs. In fact, I jumped on a Sharp LC-70LE735U last year. Not just for the 70" size (although it's awesome ). I have a 60" Pioneer Kuro that doesn't look that great in my living room. With just regular room lighting, or especially during the day when there's some sunlight coming through the blinds, the Kuro's lovely, inky, deep blacks turn grey, and the whole image looks a bit washed out and dull. In my darkened, small theater room, the Kuro can't be beat! But out in that living room, it's a different story.

The 70" Sharp can't compete with the Kuro in my theater room, but in the living room, it actually looks better than the Kuro. The LC-70LE735U has a semi-matte screen that does a good job of getting rid of the reflections that I hate so much from the glossy screens that are oh so common these days! It retains its deep black levels better than the Kuro under lighting, and especially with sunlight. And it's brighter than the Kuro, so it still looks sharp and dazzling out in the living room.

So it's a matter of matching the right sort of screen to the situation. The new Panasonic ST50, GT50 and VT50 plasmas do better with regular room lighting and sunlight than my Kuro though. The new "louvre" filter is to thank for that. But sunlight does still wash out the Panny plasmas a bit. So if you watch in a sunlit room, I still think a good LCD is better. I just want it to be a matte screen LCD with full array LED backlighting! And those are rare, unfortunately. That's why I jumped on the LC-70LE735U, which is a 2011 model. The new 2012 LC-70LE745U now uses edge-LED lighting, and I don't like it as much

And yes, "burn-in" and gaming really are not problems for good plasmas anymore. Don't worry, I totally get the fear! I freaked out seeing that "ghosting" on my Kuro from gaming when it was brand new! But after a few hundred hours of use, all of the signs of "ghosting" and "image retention" completely went away. The newest Panasonic plasmas are even more advanced on that front. So I can assure you, gaming on a plasma is not a problem

So yes, really the only reason why I would recommend a TV other than the Panasonic ST50 is if you have a sunlit room, or bright room lighting all of the time. Under those conditions, a good full-array LED backlit, matte screen LCD will look brighter, have better contrast, and retain its black levels better than the Panny plasma - even with the new "louvre" filter. But under "normal" room lighting, and especially when it is dim or dark, the plasmas just can't be beat. The blacks are blacker. The screen illumination is perfectly even and stays that way from any angle. The new plasmas are brighter, shed ambient light better, and do not "burn in". So all around, I just don't think you can buy a better TV right now.

I checked Abt.com and the TC-P60ST50 60" Panasonic plasma is $1599 with free shipping. So it's truly not much more expensive than the 60" Samsung LED-LCD with the glossy screen and edge-LED lighting. Unless your room is sunlit or very brightly lit all the time - AND you do not mind seeing your own reflections plainly staring back at you from that glossy screen all the time - I would definitely recommend the ST50 much more highly. At Abt.com's price, there's really no reason to go with a different TV, IMO

EDIT:

I tend to agree very much with CNET's TV reviews. David Katzmaier shares my fondness for matte screens and the ability to accurately calibrate the display to industry standards. I've had a few differences of opinion here and there, but for the most part, I fall very much in line with CNET's professional television reviews. So the CNET review of the TC-P60ST50 might be of interest to you I completely agree with David's take, and I think the ST50 plasmas really are the way to go for anything other than an always bright or sunlit room.

And again, sticking with CNET, if you want to go with an affordable 60" or 70" LCD, then the Sharp LC-60LE640U or LC-70LE640U comes out ahead this year. They're about the only large LCDs with a matte screen, so that's why CNET and I prefer them The 640U series is NOT 3D capable, by the way. You have to go up to the 745U series for 3D, but you said you don't care about 3D anyway.

You'll notice in the review that these Sharp 640U LED edge-lit LCDs have a number of quibbles with their picture quality. But much like my case where my LC-70LE735U is no match for my Pioneer Kuro in a darkened theater, out in a sunlit room, the LCD can actually look better. So that's where the value lies, and that's why the 640U Sharps make CNET's "best of" list. Again, Abt.com has about the lowest prices from a fully authorized dealer. The 60" 640U is $1560 with shipping included. And the 70" is $2399 with free shipping. So again, in terms of price of the size, the TC-P60ST50 plasma is darn close when you buy from Abt. So I wouldn't base it on price. The LCDs aren't saving you much money at all at the 60" size.

Cheers!

[bw3]

Ok so you got me, looking to take your recommendations. What would you say suitable subs for the surrounds should be. Emotiva says they are unavailable. Thanks

[FirstReflection]

Ok so you got me, looking to take your recommendations. What would you say suitable subs for the surrounds should be. Emotiva says they are unavailable. Thanks

Wow. Yes, I see that the Emotiva XRS-4.1 bi-pole surrounds are being shown as "unavailable" now They must not have had much stock. It's a shame they're not taking rain checks on the sale price. It's possible that a phone call to Emotiva might result in being able to still order the XRS-4.1 surrounds, but I definitely don't know for sure

Ok. Well the easiest option is to just add another pair of the Ascend HTM-200 SE speakers. 5 identical speakers is not a bad way to go! And there's a bigger discount if you order 5 speakers from Ascend instead of just 3

If you would like a lower priced option, the Emotiva XRM-4.1 satellite speakers are still available for $161.10 + free shipping.

I still prefer to use diffuse surround speakers though. They're tough to find at this price point. And even harder to find ones that can closely match the HTM-200 SE front speakers.

One option though might be the SVSound SSS-02 bi-pole surrounds. Although at $349 + free shipping they are more expensive.

Actually, the entire SVSound S-Series speakers are on clearance right now at some pretty incredible prices. You can get a full set of 5 or 7 SVSound S-Series speakers for about the same price or less. The SVSound speakers are also sealed and work quite well in most placement situations. I don't find them to be quite as accurate as the Ascend speakers though. And I definitely prefer the Ascend SE tweeter for sure. The SVSound S-Series are also quite low in efficiency, meaning they require more amplifier power in order to play equally as loud as competing speakers. So I still like the Ascend speakers better. But there's no denying the excellent value of the SVSound speakers at these clearance prices.

Aperion Audio has the Intimus 4BP bi-pole surround speaker. But it's also a more expensive choice at $320/pair + free shipping. Much like SVSound, a full 5 or 7 speaker package from Aperion is a great alternate choice. Aperion makes some very good speakers. Their smallest Intimus 4 series speakers are all sealed and compact designs as well, so they compete well once again. However, I still end up favoring the Ascend speakers. Again, because I think that SEAS tweeter in the Ascends is so good, but also, in the case of the HTM-200 SE vs. the Intimus 4B satellite, the HTM-200 SE has a distinct advantage because the Intimus 4B is a very bass shy speaker that can't play nearly as low as the HTM-200 SE. That means you'd need a significantly higher cross-over to the subwoofer, which might start to become very noticeable, rather than the seamless and smooth blend that the HTM-200 SE can offer when crossed over at 90 Hz.

Regardless though, with the Emotiva XRS-4.1 bi-pole surrounds being "unavailable" now, these are the best options that I can think of and recommend. As you can tell, I really think the Ascend HTM-200 SE remain the top pick for the front 3 speakers in this price range. But the SVSound and Aperion alternatives are still very good, so they're well worth consideration.

To be perfectly honest though, I think I would just go with 5 HTM-200 SE. While you won't get quite the same diffuse, enveloping surround field, using the 5 identical HTM-200 SE guarantees a perfect and seamless match in sound quality all around. And with the surround speakers mounted up high and to the sides, you'll still get a good recreation of the sound you'd hear in a movie theater.

Basically, if it were my money, I'd go with 5 Ascend HTM-200 SE at this point. The package price comes to $714 including shipping vs. $688.10 for my original HTM-200 SE plus XRS-4.1 combo. So the price goes up a bit, but not as much as substituting any of the other bi-pole speaker options. A full SVSound or Aperion Audio 5 speaker package can be less expensive though. So again, they present themselves as very good alternative options.

I'd stick with the Ascends myself though

Hope that helps! And thanks for the heads up about the Emotiva bi-poles. I've had a couple people tell me they ordered the XRS-4.1 speakers because of this thread! So I guess I had a hand in making those particular speakers sell out