Sanity check my first system build before ordering, please.

[selutha]

Hi,
I am building my first loud speaker system. I have always used headphones as that was the only way I could be happy in my budget. Now I am going to spend some money for what I hope is a good system. Please have a look and tell me if I have missed something or comment on the build be good or bad.

I listen to anything but, country. Mostly clasical and opera, but I do love my metal/easy listening/pop/techno. I have a very small house 1000sqft but, will be upgrading in the furture. My wife would like to beable to hear the music in the house and I think this will not be a problem with the system that follows. The source of music will be a computer for now as I do not have many records anymore (nor do I have a turntable that I could play them on anymore.

I have ripped my cds to flac, (please comment on the file format and where you would buy music for digital download if any) The system will also play sound for the tv, everything will come from the computer and be displayed on the tv. (I was amazed at how crappy the flat screen sounds, I have not owned a tv in over 10 years.) I get movies from netflix/amazon I plan to play music/movies/ect though the computer and it does have a toslink.

Sorry if you don't need this info here is the build I am thinking of:

Marantz PM6004
Paradigm Studio 20 V5
SVS PB12-NSD
Schiit Bifrost DAC

Hookup: computer>(toslink) bifrost>marantz

This is the upper limit of my budget, current cost est: 2k-2.5k

I have listened to the Paradigm studio 20's but not the sub. Though SVSound seems to be very popular on the internet. It will be my first purchase that I have not listened to personally, so any comments on this purchase would be strongly appreciated.

Also when I was listening to the Paradigm I was listening on them though a McIntosh int amp. My budget does not allow for an amp that cost 3k. How was my choice in amp? What can I expect in using the Marantz PM6004?

Thanks for taking the time to read this and I look forward to reading your responses.

P.S. on the side note is it worth subscribing to a sound service like MOG for playing music?

[FirstReflection]

Hi! Welcome to the forum!

First up, I want to compliment you for doing your research, going out and listening for yourself, and still having the self-control and wherewithal to double check and ask BEFORE you buy all of your new gear!

What I will say in response to your questions is that I don't have any particular problems with any of your selections. If those are the products that you really want, they are all good products and there is no reason to avoid any of them. What I can provide though are just some suggestions for alternatives. My suggestions are simply what I would likely purchase myself, given the same sort of budget, room size, desires and content sources. So don't think of my recommendations as being "better" or any sort of "slam" against the products you've listed. These are merely other options that you might like to consider after I've explained why I might choose them myself

1) I might opt for a full surround sound A/V Receiver rather than the Marantz Integrated Amp + Schiit DAC. I have a few reasons for this:

a) the Marantz PM6004 is strictly analogue (hence why you added the Schiit DAC to your list, I'd imagine). While it sounds as though you plan to use your computer for 100% of your content sources at the moment, it is easy to imagine wanting to add other sources in the future. Maybe a video streaming box like a Roku, Apple TV, Boxee Box or the like. Maybe a TiVo or Cable/Satellite DVR. Maybe a videogame system. Or maybe just plugging in a iPod or smartphone directly via USB. My point is, it's nice to have the inputs available for such options

b) While you are focusing on getting a good stereo 2.1 system for now, you mentioned that you might be moving into a larger house in the future. It might be nice to have the option to expand to full 5.1 or 7.1 surround sound.

c) the easiest way to set up any A/V system is to have everything just plug into the receiver. The receiver becomes the "hub" of your system. It handles all the audio and it does all the switching between sources. A full A/V receiver will make this easier since it will handle both audio and video. Everything plugs into the receiver and one HDMI cable sends the video to your TV. Simple

d) you will get proper bass management plus auto speaker setup and automatic EQ and room correction. This is a pretty big deal! With the Marantz Integrated Amp, you have no bass management. You would end up sending full range signals to both the speakers and the subwoofer, which is far less than ideal. You want the low frequencies to be filtered out from the speakers and sent to the subwoofer instead. And having EQ and room correction can be a very nice feature that the Integrated Amp lacks.

With all of this in mind, and also considering your price point, I would purchase an Onkyo TX-NR709 7.2 A/V Receiver rather than the combo of the Marantz PM6004 + Schiit DAC. Pay close attention to the exact model number. There is a newer TX-NR717 that is actually worse! So you want the "older" 709 model.

There are a few reasons why I recommend the Onkyo TX-NR709 in particular at this price point. Mainly, it offers Audyssey MultEQ XT auto-setup and room correction. This is one of the best auto-setup and room correction programs and it also measures and EQs bass frequencies, which is very important. The 709 is also the least expensive receiver that offers full pre-outs so that you can add separate power amplifiers in the future! While the 709 has plenty of power for just 2 speakers in your fairly small house at the moment, in the future, you might have a larger room and you might want to expand to a full surround sound setup. The 709 is ready and able to run in full 7.2 surround sound at any time, plus it allows you to add more powerful, separate amps if you ever want to, which is rare at this lower price point, but an excellent option to have IMO.

You can easily plug in any source to the 709. It has HDMI ports, digital coax and optical ports, analogue stereo ports and you can even plug an iPod or iPhone directly into the front USB jack, so it's easily ready for any source. It can also connect to your home network with Ethernet and access many streaming audio and Internet radio services all by itself! So you have many, many more options to play around with

2) I happen to like most Paradigm speakers, so I've no problem at all with the Studio 20 v5 bookshelf speakers, especially since you've auditioned and liked them. That said, I will merely suggest a potential challenger The Ascend Acoustics Sierra-1 bookshelf speakers with the $300 NrT tweeter upgrade.

With the tweeter and crossover upgrade, the Sierra-1 are about $1100, which is close to the Studio 20 v5 MSRP. The Sierra-1 with NrT tweeter are, IMO, among the very best speakers available at that price point. The NrT tweeter is excellent, and a cut above the price competition to my ears. Very extended, very linear and accurate, but what puts it over the top for me is its excellent transient response that allows for better delineation and detail in the attacks and decays of notes. It's a tweeter that starts to approach the detail and resolution found in ribbon and beryllium tweeters, but at a significantly more affordable price point.

Like I say, I quite like Paradigm, so this is merely an alternative. But it's how I would spend MY money is all If it were the Paradigm Signature speakers with the beryllium tweeters, it would be a different story, but the Paradigm Sigs are in a different price bracket. So at this price point, I think the Ascend Sierra-1 w/ NrT tweeter are winners. If you go with the Sierra-1 + NrT, choose the "Natural" or "Dark Cherry" finish. They are GORGEOUS

3) I love SVSound's current lineup of subs. I won't steer you away from the PB12-NSD. It is very linear and accurate. Has great, strong extension right down to 20Hz. Perhaps what I like best is that it remains linear and keeps that deep extension even as you crank up the volume! That is rare among subs and basically unequalled at this price point. It is also "unbreakable", so even in a larger room in the future, it will be ready and able to handle it.

The only possible quibble is that it does not offer any tuning options just the one port-open 20Hz flat tuning. But if you get the Onkyo TX-NR709 with Audyssey MultEQ XT, that can EQ the bass, so having timing options built into the sub itself is less crucial. That said, if you want tuning option, a very good alternative sub would be the HSU Research VTF-3 MK4. That's a larger sub physically, so just keep that in mind

4) As for music files, ripping CDs to a lossless format like FLAC is good. I do the same. Although I make 320kbps AAC versions as well for my iPhone since space is limited on that device. Honestly, I have a heck of a time telling 320kbps files from lossless, but if you have the storage space, FLAC is 100% true to the original.

If you want to buy lossless downloads of music, check out HDTracks.com. You can download completely uncompressed AIFF files, lossless FLAC files or high quality lossy 320kbps files from them

I'm not really up on all the various streaming audio services, so I'm afraid I can't help you there. However, like I mentioned, the Onkyo TX-NR709 can access several online services directly by itself if you connect it with Ethernet. And with your computer connected, you could basically try anything you like and just cancel your membership after the trial if it doesn't float you boat

Hope that helps! And best of luck in your purchases!

[brianedm]

In regards to your question about streaming services, if you have satellite radio in your car it most likely includes a streaming service in your monthly subscription already. I have sirius and use the streaming on my iphone at work occasionally, I'm a pretty big fan of it.

[BoredSysAdmin]

I mostly agree with FR post above, just like to make few small changes worth mentioning imo:

a) I 100% agree DAC+Amp is inferior to modern a/v receiver in terms on convinience, features and equal as far as SQ goes

b) Onkyo 709 is indeed better than 717 - don't get the later , but in general Onkyo had bad luck lately with many QC issues and many people swore off the brand. I suggest alternative in your price point - MARANTZ SR6005 110w X 7ch 3-D Home Theater Surround Receiver | Accessories4less

c) Ascend Sierra-1 +nrt are excellent choice and have TONS of bang for the buck. I could suggest these alternatives if you need few more options to look at:
Denis Murphy's Philharmonitor :
philharmonicaudio.com
photos:
Philharmonic Audio - Dennis Murphy

or Jim Salk's - SongSurround


Sub: You're not going to hear me complaining about your choice of sub brand, but to recommend specific model we need to know how big is your room

[selutha]

...


Sub: You're not going to hear me complaining about your choice of sub brand, but to recommend specific model we need to know how big is your room

My house is very small and the room is about (rough guess) 20x13x10, it may be a little smaller than that.

Just to be clear on my habits, I watch maybe a movie a week, total viewing time about 3-4 hours a week on the tv. Music on the other hand is about 4 hours a day, so my primary concern is the music. That is the reason I was leaning towards the DAC+amp, now if the AV will give me the same SQ I am all for it.

The sierra-1 does interest me, I don't know if i can find a place to hear it... Damn I hate this town sometimes.

Also Thank you both for responding.

[FirstReflection]

Nice additional suggestions, BoredSys! That's quite a price break for a refurbished SR6005. Crazy how much difference one year and an "open box" can make

I'm not nearly as "down" on Onkyo as a lot of other folks. Not that there aren't valid reasons to be down on them. Onkyo's had their detractors for as long as I can remember. They've always been criticized for their receivers running hot. And it's true, so it's a genuine concern. The biggest issue lately has been the faulty HDMI boards though. To their credit, Onkyo did address the problem and performed repairs on any defective units that were sent to authorized repair shops. On the downside though, those repairs came with the sadly typical long wait times and headaches of dealing with Onkyo's less than stellar customer phone service. So I sympathize and understand the disappointment and even the outrage hatred that some unlucky customers have with the brand now. On the other hand, I also see people on message boards who have never even owned an Onkyo product who just like to slam the brand every time it's mentioned, which I do not agree with at all and I think is completely unwarranted.

The simple fact is that Onkyo, for the past many years, has really been pushing more than any other receiver brand to include the newest and greatest number of features at the lowest price points. That approach has brought them a lot of sales, but it has also come at the expense of seemingly cutting some corners when it comes to quality control, and rather clearly sacrificing a good customer service department. However, I think the attitude on the message boards is exaggerated. The boards make it seem as though EVERY Onkyo unit has problems, which is simply false. Onkyo sells a lot of receivers, and if all of them were broken, there'd just be massive returns. It seems to be the case that a higher percentage of units have problems vs brands like Denon and Marantz, so I'm not saying Onkyo doesn't deserve criticism. But by the same token, they are not the "garbage" that some forum haters espouse either, so the truth lies somewhere in the middle is all I'm saying

The SR6005 is a great receiver choice though, so I can totally get behind that recommendation. You do give up the "XT"version of Audyssey MultEQ though. Regular MultEQ still EQs the bass and does a good job on the auto setup. It just uses fewer data points and thus isn't as precise in its room correction and EQ as the more advanced XT version. There aren't the same Ethernet networking features on the 6005 either, but considering you'll have a computer attached, that's really not a big deal. The main thing is that the 6005 offers full pre outs so that you have the option to connect separate amps in the future. That's a biggie, and the 6005 has you covered there, as well as already delivering pretty darn good amplification itself already

Anywho, as before, these are just options for you to consider. Hopefully you'll check them out and find them useful. I think you'll end up with a very nice system in the end regardless

[FirstReflection]

My house is very small and the room is about (rough guess) 20x13x10, it may be a little smaller than that.

Just to be clear on my habits, I watch maybe a movie a week, total viewing time about 3-4 hours a week on the tv. Music on the other hand is about 4 hours a day, so my primary concern is the music. That is the reason I was leaning towards the DAC+amp, now if the AV will give me the same SQ I am all for it.

The sierra-1 does interest me, I don't know if i can find a place to hear it... Damn I hate this town sometimes.

Also Thank you both for responding.

You're most welcome

I was just talking about this a few weeks back: I don't know where the sudden explosion of interest in outboard DACs has come from. It really is a fairly recent phenomenon, but for the past few months, it seems as though everyone suddenly thinks they need an outboard DAC for some reason Maybe you could clue me in? Was there some big article or tv spot I don't know about that got the public all interested in DACs??

Anywho, outboard DACs are no better than the DACs built into modern receivers. We've had DACs sorted out and basically perfected for a pretty long time now, which is why I'm all the more confused by the huge increase in interest in separate, overpriced DAC units.

For your purposes, a good AV receiver like the Onkyo 709 or the Marantz 6005 will definitely sound every bit as good as the Integrated Amp + DAC. And the AVR will do a whole lot more in terms of features and connections, so there's a big upside and no downside. The biggest of all though is the bass management! That alone is a good reason to opt for the AVR. A good blend from the speakers into the subwoofer is vital.

For the speakers, again, I like Paradigm, so I've no beef at all with that choice. To me though, the Sierra-1 w/ NrT upgrade are just more exciting to listen to and a bit more revealing. They're like a step that lies between the Studio and the Signature lines from Paradigm, but they cost the same or less than the Studio series, so that's where I feel they get a leg up.

I totally agree that you'd want to hear them before committing to a purchase though. I will just mention that Ascend offers a solid 30-day return window and their customer service is superb. So an in home audition is something I think you should consider. You would have to pay the return shipping if you don't keep them, so I understand if you're hesitant. But the Sierra-1 aren't huge towers or anything. Shipping them back wouldn't cost a crazy amount

I adore the Sierra bamboo cabinets though. They are unique and exquisite. That's why I so highly recommend the "Natural" finish too! Nothing else looks like them, and I think it's a shame to cover up that bamboo with a solid paint finish

[selutha]

You're most welcome

I was just talking about this a few weeks back: I don't know where the sudden explosion of interest in outboard DACs has come from. It really is a fairly recent phenomenon, but for the past few months, it seems as though everyone suddenly thinks they need an outboard DAC for some reason Maybe you could clue me in? Was there some big article or tv spot I don't know about that got the public all interested in DACs??

Anywho, outboard DACs are no better than the DACs built into modern receivers. We've had DACs sorted out and basically perfected for a pretty long time now, which is why I'm all the more confused by the huge increase in interest in separate, overpriced DAC units.

For your purposes, a good AV receiver like the Onkyo 709 or the Marantz 6005 will definitely sound every bit as good as the Integrated Amp + DAC. And the AVR will do a whole lot more in terms of features and connections, so there's a big upside and no downside. The biggest of all though is the bass management! That alone is a good reason to opt for the AVR. A good blend from the speakers into the subwoofer is vital.

For the speakers, again, I like Paradigm, so I've no beef at all with that choice. To me though, the Sierra-1 w/ NrT upgrade are just more exciting to listen to and a bit more revealing. They're like a step that lies between the Studio and the Signature lines from Paradigm, but they cost the same or less than the Studio series, so that's where I feel they get a leg up.

I totally agree that you'd want to hear them before committing to a purchase though. I will just mention that Ascend offers a solid 30-day return window and their customer service is superb. So an in home audition is something I think you should consider. You would have to pay the return shipping if you don't keep them, so I understand if you're hesitant. But the Sierra-1 aren't huge towers or anything. Shipping them back wouldn't cost a crazy amount

I adore the Sierra bamboo cabinets though. They are unique and exquisite. That's why I so highly recommend the "Natural" finish too! Nothing else looks like them, and I think it's a shame to cover up that bamboo with a solid paint finish

I completely agree with you on the DAC, I myself am a computer geek, I can not fathom why they:

1) cost so damn much...

2) Why great ones are not included in the systems.

I can not point out any major article that explains why you have to have one seperate I have read that part of it is the fact that the power rail in the computer is very noisy and getting the signal out so you can process it after the fact will give you better resolution. I understand that if you shoot low enough you can get a crappy DAC, but at my price point I do no see why I should have one, but I have been told over and over that I need one.

Alittle googing though gives me this:

what hi fi site www-dot-whathifi-dot-com/review/tx-nr709 (sorry post count too low to do a link properly.)

The Onkyo loses none of its resolution and clout in stereo either, although we’ve yet to come across a multichannel amp that can trouble a similarly priced stereo one.

There are a few other instances of that when googling. The primary purpose of this will be listening to music. So hence is the reason for the dac+pm6004.

More and more research...

[selutha]

Just an update, I have ordered the sub and Sierra-1 nrt to audition. I am strongly leaning towards the av idea as the sierrras seem aliitle more power hungry and I worry about the marantz pm6004 choice.

Still racking my brain trying to figure out what is the best way for the amp.

[selutha]

Also one question what about the newer Marantz? sr5007 or sr6007?