So earlier today I start typing...

[Resident Loser]

...a response to the Bose/Paradigm thread and by the time I get around to posting,"...pffft, it was gone..." or rather, locked...cheez that s*cked, with a capital s*ck...so anyway, here goes nuttin'...in it's entirety, and then some:

Let me preface my remarks with this...sorry Mulester, I think the idea of 'piggy-backing" two Bose EQs is not a good one...and that is exactly what you are saying you are doing...one patched between the pre-outs of your receiver or pre-amp and another in the tape loop...daisy-chain style...it may not appear to be so, but it is the case...with 36dB boost@35Hz, under the right conditions, you could quite possibly damage the drivers...also, BTW, Series I and II EQs are apparently substantially different from subsequent ones and Bose, at their website advises against mixing vintages. Series I and II were acoustic suspension designs, the latter ported.

Now for the good stuff...I reiterate my earlier post to some degree(particularly since it elicited no responses)...I suppose it's my wishful thinking or vivid imagination that I enjoy deep, accurate and articulate bass with my 901s...perhaps my SPL meter is also delusional!

No' Bose doesn't post FR specs...if the response curve(in my listening room) is as ragged as I seem to have discovered, not a good selling point to reveal it, so in that respect I'll agree...don't ask, don't tell...sell, sell, sell...but to say the nine drivers w/EQing are incapable of pushing air...I strongly disagree...when I hear(and moreover feel) things like E. Power Biggs pedal work on something like Bach's "Toccata And Fugue" I have to laugh at the mere notion of such criticisms...and again the 901-IIs are my point of reference...I'll refer you to my earlier post(in the other thread) for other examples in the rock or jazz idioms.

The nine drivers, as a unified group, each with a +/- .25in. excursion can move air...if the units are well designed and of sufficient power handling capacity, with the proper EQing they can produce a FR outside their nominal frequency range...particularly if we are stating a range with +/- 3dB...perhaps there is a drop to -8dB@40Hz, if you can augment that electronically and the voice coils can handle the required power and your amp has the capacity to supply it, there is no reason why the low-end cannot be extended sufficiently...and in actual practice it is a reality...in this case an 18dB boost is applied @35Hz. I use an HK Citation 19 power amp rated 100Wpc RMS@8ohms, both channels driven...capable of 200w@ 4ohms and even with all the Bose EQing and subsequent processing from my SAE half-octave unit, I use about two-and-a-half watts under normal listening conditions. As acoustic suspension units, they are not particularly efficient speakers.

Other manufacturers have done it...I recall the NY Hi-Fi show at the Statler-Hilton, back in '77...Philips had a demo room that contained two, fairly sizable loudspeaker enclosures, each perhaps 2/3 the size of a Klipschorn and they were spotlighted for dramatic effect...or so it seemed...the sound produced was commensurate with what one would expect for such enclosures, particularly the bass response...the kicker was, at some point in the presentation, the lighting was changed, revealing the "speakers" were actually a scrim on wooden frames, behind which sat a speaker roughly the size of an attache' case and twice its thickness...and audible gasp or groan or some such of disbelief was heard from the audience...Philips called the servo-controlled EQd system "David" alluding to the Biblical tale...but enough ancient history...

To continue, I suppose the deep and wide soundstage and proper instrument placement I perceive is also a figment of my imagination...along with the phantom center-image...well, as long as it's in the source material, that is...and again, everything doesn't sound great or spectacular, so it's not a case of self-(or substance-)induced euphonics.

Anywho...anyone who carps about the use of equalization or other processing , should really investigate how much goes on "behind the scenes" in the production and re-production of recorded sound, all with no ill effects. There is, if I recall correctly, some 16 to 20dB of bass boost applied by the RIAA curve in your phono pre-amp and an equal amount of treble attentuation, all in an effort to undo the pre-and de-emphasis required to cut the analog signal into the master...and digital...DON"T GET ME STARTED...

Tone controls and/or equalizers are considered verboten by the "golden ears" among us...to which I reply, poppycock...it's the incorrect and injudicious use of them where problems can arise. Put it into perspective, all the loaded, vented, ported loudspeaker systems pretty much apply the same concept, however they do it mechanically...

As previously stated, the 901s require a different mind set to fully appreciate them IMHO.

If anyone would like to take this out of the realm of a "joke" and discuss the matter further, keep the thread going and I will respond as time permits.

jimHJJ(...thank you for your time and indulgence...)

[Tom Andry]

It's the Thread of the Undead! It won't die, it just comes back stronger! Clint, your puny powers of thread locking will be of no avail! It can't be stopped. It can't be reasoned with. It knows no punctuation outside of .... !

Truth be told, the Bose marketing department has finally succeeded in sacrificing the requisite number of virgins to raise from the depths a being that can not only annoy all clear thinking non-bose-ites, but respond to its own posts all the while saying ....tttttttttttwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwoooooooooo.....!

Don't give in to its evil! It will hound you! It will annoy you! It will not succumb to any form of logical, fact-based argument! The only cure is to ignore it. All other actions, especially starting new threads, will only feed energy back to the marketing department allowing them to create more of these zombie-bose-ites. Beware! Beware! Beware!!!!!!!!!!!! I hear it coming now!

.........ttttttttttttttwwwwwwwwwwwwooooooooooooooo o........

[mulester7]

.....Resident, you are anything but a loser....I can't make this any simpler....screw the jokes....screw the humor....try two....any series two....they all do the same thing....get back....

[sts9fan]

Drop it.

Mu-lester likes bose and spamming messageboards for lets drop it. ;)

[mulester7]

.....Sts9fan, I could care less if Bose bottoms up tomorrow....I don't own any and don't plan to.....

[mulester7]

It's the Thread of the Undead! It won't die, it just comes back stronger! Clint, your puny powers of thread locking will be of no avail! It can't be stopped. It can't be reasoned with. It knows no punctuation outside of .... !

Truth be told, the Bose marketing department has finally succeeded in sacrificing the requisite number of virgins to raise from the depths a being that can not only annoy all clear thinking non-bose-ites, but respond to its own posts all the while saying ....tttttttttttwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwoooooooooo.....!

Don't give in to its evil! It will hound you! It will annoy you! It will not succumb to any form of logical, fact-based argument! The only cure is to ignore it. All other actions, especially starting new threads, will only feed energy back to the marketing department allowing them to create more of these zombie-bose-ites. Beware! Beware! Beware!!!!!!!!!!!! I hear it coming now!

.........ttttttttttttttwwwwwwwwwwwwooooooooooooooo o........

.....excellent.....

[Resident Loser]

...I neither had at the outset, nor currently have, any intention of continuing the previous thread...I merely provided Mulester with the common courtesy of a reply and what I think is a prudent warning re: doubling up on the Bose EQs...that being said, I also invited anyone who cares to continue with a reasonable discussion of the subject the opportunity to do so.

In the absence of any experience based, substantive comments, I hereby withdraw my offer, since it seems the net result will simply be a series of glib one-liners and ill-concieved comments on my posting style. From what I have witnessed, here and at other sites, most of the participants barely have a grasp on the basic constructs of the English language or exhibit anything even close to proper grammatical usage! Such critiques are therefore, laughable. I'm fairly certain, hails of pre-pubescent giggles and guffaws would accompany the mere mention of the words hyphen and semicolon and their usage would be far beyond the ken of others present; I would not want to tax the already overburdened mental capacity of the sound-bite generation.

jimHJJ(...now you can all return to your mechanical-lizard movies and the applicable sound effects...)

[Buckeyefan 1]

I don't think anyone is knocking the use of eq's. They are extremely useful in boosting or cutting frequencies in less than perfect rooms. The next time you go see that jazz band at the local corner, check out their crate setup. You'll notice eq's and processing equipment that is a must for balancing out imperfect reverb and room conditions. Sure, two or more are used, but they are usually applied to different channels - not in parallel. I use an Audiosource EQ11 with my cd player. It brings the music to life. EQ's are an excellent way to compensate for speakers lacking in certain hz, and none of us have perfect speakers in every frequency. This is the reason most high end receivers have parametric eq's. They should never be set to flat. When was the last time you saw a live jazz performance and all the sound was "flat". Recording engineers live and die by processors and eq's. Flat sound is what your Bose wave radio puts out. Take advantage of your system and it's processing.

[mulester7]

...I neither had at the outset, nor currently have, any intention of continuing the previous thread...I merely provided Mulester with the common courtesy of a reply and what I think is a prudent warning re: doubling up on the Bose EQs...that being said, I also invited anyone who cares to continue with a reasonable discussion of the subject the opportunity to do so.

In the absence of any experience based, substantive comments, I hereby withdraw my offer, since it seems the net result will simply be a series of glib one-liners and ill-concieved comments on my posting style. From what I have witnessed, here and at other sites, most of the participants barely have a grasp on the basic constructs of the English language or exhibit anything even close to proper grammatical usage! Such critiques are therefore, laughable. I'm fairly certain, hails of pre-pubescent giggles and guffaws would accompany the mere mention of the words hyphen and semicolon and their usage would be far beyond the ken of others present; I would not want to tax the already overburdened mental capacity of the sound-bite generation.

jimHJJ(...now you can all return to your mechanical-lizard movies and the applicable sound effects...)

.....yes, you're sharp....I just talked to somone at Bose by 800....after a little small talk, I asked if the present model 901 equalizer basically added 18 db of boost at both ends of the frequency response....the reply was yes....more discussion brought the response that's all they have ever done and ALL THEY WILL EVER DO....I asked if the person had ever heard 901's using two 901 equalizers....the response was yes....I asked if the experience was favorable....the reply was they thought it made 901's sound spectacular....quote....I asked if what they heard was live presence....they said like you're there....I asked why didn't Bose suggest using twoooooooo as an option to sell more product....the reply was some people prefer one equalizer sound....that confused me and still is....this is the truth....guys, we're only discussing a piece of audio equipment and application effects....I'm pushing Bose speakers in no way....telegraph style is easier to read....I ain't stewpid......

[mulester7]

.....boys, I've found a pair of Martin Logans....the big ones....I saw them in a guy's backyard....his neighbor, a friend of mine, said the guy has 750,000 volts hooked up to the electrostatic parts, and claims they're the the best bug zappers goin'........I'm gonna' try to get 'em cheap because I got more bugs....cross your fingers with me, my new found Brothers.....

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I honestly want to audition/test a pair of 901's in house. I don't want to pay $1400 to do so however ;) But I do have some pre-testing comments....

1. The EQ. Bose supplies the EQ and says it should be used. Thats cool with me, no speaker if ruler-flat and I am perfectly happy with results from EQ'd powered subwoofers (Hsu TN-1220). So i don't think it would be a concern.

2. Its a bookshelf. Its a very large bookshelf. It is not a floorstanding speaker, Bose even sells "pedestals" to put your 901s on because they tell you that they should be raised off the ground. Stop calling them floorstanders.

Bose had floorstanders at one time, I forgot the number but I remember seeing adds for them. I think they may have been 701s or 801s.

3. Its ugly. Yes, high-end audiophilia is filled with hideous, baby-scarring speakers, and the 901 is one of them. Even the veneer "walnut" has to have been scientifically proven to be the most horrible shade of wood ever used. Why not Maple, or Cherry, or Oak? The black ash are acceptible.

The previous three conccerns aside, i think I should borrow a pair of 901's sometime, i think i'll be a better person for having the 1st hand knowledge.

[zipper]

I wouldn't take the critcisms of Blows products personally. If YOU like them, that's all that matters. Write the rest of us off as uninformed,blithering idiots if it makes you feel better. I,too, once thought Blows was THE name in stereo speakers but derived that strictly from name recognition. I wasn't dissuaded by the mass opinions of the posters here, however, I discovered it on my own before I ever found this site.
I don't like any company that sells junk under the guise of being a quality product. That's just my stance. I won't try to persuade you or anyone else to feel as I do.


Mulester................one day you may have the pleasure of hearing some ML's. I have a hunch that if you do, you're suddenly going to feel rather foolish. I do appreciate your wit,however.

[mulester7]

.....absolutely, Zipper....you guys know I'm just kidding about the Martin Logans....I've never heard them....a friend of mine swore in his electroastatic highs and mids a few years back....how much do the upper class Martin's run?.....

[mustang_steve]

You can get a set of Sansui SP-2500s off Ebay for $200 that at the very least is far higher price/perfomance ratio than the 901, and possibly a better sounding speaker. I knew the 2500 was better than the 901 when it came out about 30 years ago.

I also still love the sound of those speakers...but they are just so freaking HUGE...old large woofer Sansuis are not known for their wife acceptance factor...but the pretty lattice grillwork does help some..

[Buckeyefan 1]

.....absolutely, Zipper....you guys know I'm just kidding about the Martin Logans....I've never heard them....a friend of mine swore in his electroastatic highs and mids a few years back....how much do the upper class Martin's run?.....

I've heard them coupled up with a Pioneer Elite receiver and Krell monoblocs. They sound tremendous, especially at very low volumes. Very very different sounding highs. Sweet sounding. Very enveloping. If they weren't so darn ugly, I would have bought a used pair for $1500 last year, but they look like Chinese wall partitions. Possibly the best HT speakers out there.

www.audioexcellence.co.th/brand/martinlogan_statementE2.shtml

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1118067449

This is, hands down IMO, the best HT subwoofer you can buy. A little pricey though. I was literally blown away the first time I heard it. Kudos to Martin Logan on this one.

www.martinlogan.com/descent_speaker.html#none

www.ultraaudio.com/equipment/martinlogan_descent.htm

[mulester7]

.....Buck, is that retail list of $80,000 on the full length bug zapper correct?....wow....after your description of the highs I want to hear some....great description....I truly got blessed a month ago....I've finally got some speakers that I want to listen to totally, without fail, flat....every time, no matter what I put on the spinning pad....does that make me a awdeofile?....if so, Buck, hold still while I look down my long nose at ya'.....

[Buckeyefan 1]

Yes, $80,000. Amazing. McIntosh has some similar units ringing up in that price range. Too much for my taste. Here's some amps to drive them...

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ddampstran&1114329509&demo&3&4&

Here's an awesome site for pix of actual home theaters. What do these guys do for a living?

http://cgim.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/glb.pl

[mulester7]

.....Buck, I've come to think overkill begins more quickly in amps than speakers....we've all learned the speakers are the last chance our music's got....my motto is, either love your mains, or get a wave radio....and you really need two wave radios....one to crap in and the other one to cover it up with.....

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

Here's an awesome site for pix of actual home theaters. What do these guys do for a living?

They sell Bose systems obviously. :)

[mulester7]

.....(cricket).....

[mulester7]

You can get a set of Sansui SP-2500s off Ebay for $200 that at the very least is far higher price/perfomance ratio than the 901, and possibly a better sounding speaker. I knew the 2500 was better than the 901 when it came out about 30 years ago.

I also still love the sound of those speakers...but they are just so freaking HUGE...old large woofer Sansuis are not known for their wife acceptance factor...but the pretty lattice grillwork does help some..

.....Steve, I apologize....thanks for the response....I now know what caliber of speakers are out there by what I received a month ago....I am trying in no way to be a barker for Bob and his speakers, either, Clint, Sir....wouldn't matter anyway....he told me in an IM session yesterday that he will build about 5 pair a year from here on and that is it....they are conceived as being expensive especially when you only see only a button tweeter and an 8 inch woofer....Buck, the woofer has linear excursion limits that approach the Sun cube sub....amazing presence....and established by Martin Logan's magic, magic is going to cost quite a bit extra....Bob's almost cussing me by IM every time telling me to put the damned things on the floor and sell the subs....I'll try it sooner or later....can I get an Amen from SVS owners?....my second pair of TL's is already negotiated and locked in and I am working toward it....could care less if any TL's are sold ever again, but for Bob's sake, I hope they are, of course....he has become real special to me, BUT!!, he's living a TORTUROUS life currently in Morro Bay, CA....yeah, he can't walk 50 feet west without having to wrestle a shark....join me in extending a hand west, Gentlemen....that could go about three directions, haha.....

[mulester7]

......I've been enlightened....I asked Buckeyefan a question using the private feature of this fine board....which is fun, except when it's Clint comin' at ya', haha....anyhow, I asked Buck a question and he replied in a way I thought others reading here would appreciate hearing....he said ok on the quoting....oh, on his last sentence, all I can say is I certainly have him fooled....Buck, I think me and you could hang out.....this will be my last contribution of the evening....(THUNDEROUS APPLAUSE)....(frown).....


.....Buck, let me ask you something....in the 70's and 80's, surround was derived from an attack named matrix....this system somehow picked out surges, I suspect, and sent them to the rears....today with these surround 7 channel receivers, does the same thing happen, or do they work more on discrete emissions?....or is an honest to goodness processor involved?......



Totally different today. 7 channel is a myth of some sorts. The only true surround sound right now is through DVD, DVD Audio, and SACD where music tracks are recorded and sent to 5 or 6 separate channels. The 7th channel matrixes an existing 6th and splits it up into virtual stereo for the rear surround. DVD uses 5.1 and 6.1 (the .1 being a subwoofer). DVD audio uses 6.1 but is a pain in the neck to hook up. You need 6 rca ins and outs to these new receivers. DTS has an "ES Discrete 6.1" mode that is legit and is the most advanced form of surround today. I find the surround modes totally useless though, where the standard "stereo" and "7 channel stereo" still sound the best. This is probably not the in depth answer you are looking for, but is the best I can do.

[Tom Andry]

They sell Bose systems obviously. :)

.....(cricket).....


I thought it was funny. :D

[mulester7]

....up early with hot coffee close....I've thought about these current surround receivers a bit....thinking is usually what gets me in the most trouble....warning....this may be the post that gets me labeled as an genuine idiot and run off....if so, I'll be brave and go quietly.....


"music tracks are recorded and sent to 5 or 6 separate channels"
"The 7th channel matrixes an existing 6th and splits it up into virtual stereo"
"ES Discrete 6.1"
""stereo" and "7 channel stereo" still sound the best"


.....Buck, or anyone....two questions....the first....how many seperate, discrete from each other, amplifier sections do the newest surround receivers have?....the second....aren't the terms, "channels", and, "ES Discrete 6.1", used here indigenous only to the millivolted pre-amp section?....statement....if the answer to the first question is, here we go again, twooooo, and unless they have 6 or 7 seperate and discrete from each other amplifier sections onboard, I'd say technology continues on, ever upward, with the tried-and-true basic concept of, "stereo left and right".......BUT!, if there are only two discrete amp sections left and right, there can only be two feeds as per "exit" from the two amp sections left and right to the 6 or 7 speakers....how do the 6 or 7 speakers receive and emit different information/channels?....the notion of 6 or 7 strapped slave amps now enters the picture I guess, haha....oh well....tell me the current surround receivers have 6 or 7 seperate and discrete from each other amp sections, and it was all for naught, I guess....could it be that through technology, discrete and matrix creation have been made to intertwine at the millivolt level with transfer information capabilities once amplified by watts?....I doubt that, and I suspect there's more matrix creation going on than we think....even though the end result is Wonderful, with great pleasure being derived from more than one format....yes, the end result is Great and may it only get Better, but why would it not be still pretty much basic stereo if it's sent from but two independent amplifier sections?....sure not throwing any cold water, either, as performance of these surround theaters only gets better....let me ask this....can the volume of each of the 6 or 7 speakers be controlled individually from the receiver?....if the answer is yes, and the attenuator knobs are on the back of the receiver, or even the front but more likely the back, chances are the attenuator knob is acting as an L-pad on an amplified signal....I quit, and should, since I really don't have enough info to work with on these new and complex surround receivers....I bought one for my son-in-law and it's really clean and was super cheap for a couple of hundred bucks....I just don't think a couple of hundred bucks bought Greg either six or seven independent seperate and apart amp sections....over........Buck, I'm confused but tryin', and you gotta' remember kids from Arkinsaw, usually early on in life, bounce on that head a LOT tryin' accelerated Superman stuff......


"You need 6 rca ins and outs to these new receivers"

.....Buck, I can understand the 6 outs, where do 6 in's come from?.....

[mulester7]

.....Mrnomas, as Nick Tortelli would say, "IT'S A CURSE!".....

[mulester7]

.....wow, seasoned in 6 days....somebody check with Guiness.....

[mulester7]

.....Guinness also.....

[Buckeyefan 1]

On my Denon 3805, it's described as "fully discrete, equal power seven amplifier channels, 120 watts each. Identicle amplifier design featuring high current discrete output devices on all 7 channels."

It is not the same as 7 - 120 watt McIntosh mononbloc amps. While the new surround receivers sport separate amps, there are nowhere near the heat sinks in my Denon compared to a monobloc amp. We all know heat causes issues, most notably distortion. So IMO the best surround sound receivers today are fine for typical living room HT and musical use, they in no way are meant to compete with the massive monobloc and stereo amps that cost two and three times what these units do. What my Denon does have over other better surround receivers is a large capacity block capacitor for seamless power supply. Denon makes a great two channel stereo receiver at 100 watts per channel. That unit weighs 22 lbs, while my 3805 weighs 37 lbs. I have had separates hooked up to my extremely inefficient Polks, and I am still impressed by the power this new Denon 3805 puts out. Will it play at the same volumes for the same amount of time as 7 McIntosh 120 watt monobloc amps? No way. For the price point, am I satisfied? Heck yeah.

[mulester7]

Audio Inputs: 7.1 external wide bandwidth (100 kHz) multi-channel inputs, 5/7 Channel Stereo, DENON Link 3rd (SACD & DVD-Audio compatible), 7 assignable digital inputs (5 optical, 2 coaxial), 10 analog inputs

Audio Outputs: 2 optical digital outputs, 2 multi-zone stereo pre-amp level audio outputs, fixed or variable level

.....Buck, above are specs on the Denon 3805 as made available by this site for reference on search engines....you can input everything imaginable, but look at the outputs at pre-amp level....I suspect the magic of this product is in the bit processors after the signal enters the unit at pre-amp level....how can it have 7 independent amplifier sections rated at 120 watts each and also give a bi-amped front mains rating of 240?...I doubt 7 amp sections strap up to give two....hey, I'm only trying to figure this animal out, and it's obviously an outstanding animal....I'll perform a little DD and try to find something out....it tickled me when you expressed a genuine caring for this product....that's where it's at.....

[Buckeyefan 1]

Mule, I spent a year researching amps, receivers, speakers, etc... before settling on this one. You can't imagine the reveiws out there on receivers. I've talked to so many managers in hifi stores about what they own, and demo'd just about everything out there. My friends know me as the guy who could care less about a name plate, and more about the actual performance of things.

IE, my buddy in Dallas has an 05 BMW M3. I told him for my dollar, I'd rather spend the cash on the new Vette Z06 with 500HP. He said I was nuts b/c of the street credit the Beemer has over the GM product, and the demographics of both vehicles. He said if he had to choose American, he'd buy a Viper over a Vette because of appearance. To me, I could care less about what others think of what my ride looks like, as long as I know I'm getting the most bang for my buck. The only receiver out there better than the Denon 3805 for the money is the Marantz 8400 at www.ubid.com. It will auction out under $600. Had that been available when I bought my Denon, I would have gone with Marantz. In the near future, I will be adding a massive 2 channel amp to my system to get these damn Polks to sing like they should.

I know you are trying to say the new 7.1 receivers have one amp, and the processors split these amps into 7 separate channels. That may be the case. Heck, they only have 1 transformer. Today's surround sound is very dependant on the center channel, then the two fronts, and last but not least the two rear surrounds, then the two rear centers. If the rear surrounds and rear centers even come on while watching cable, you're lucky. No one needs 120 watts to the rears or rear centers. If they could push 80 watts of that power to my front mains, and possibly a little more to my center, than I'd be in lala land. Until then, I guess I'll just have to live with "equal power seven amplifier channels." Whatever the heck that means! :confused:

[mulester7]

.....Buck, I raise a grape soda from Wal-Mart to the monitor in honor of your response....I know we could hang out....I'll leave tonight....clean me out a corner in your garage....

[mulester7]

"Heck, they only have 1 transformer"

.....excellent....

[mulester7]

.....to you guys who have 5.1, 6.1, or 7.1 receivers and possess a full compliment of speakers surrounding your theater....Buck just related to us a situational lack where he wasn't getting much bang for his buck watching cable....that might be a bad side, I don't know....but this is for sure, isn't it AMAZING how GREAT your theater sounds are, when ALL your speakers/soldiers are present and accounted for?....and I mean, !!LO!UD!!, haha....MAN, can the presence come through when it's cranked or what?....enough of researching the multi-channel receivers....If Buck had not LOVED it, he would not have it........we're all in this together and it's obvious who's had real interests for a longer time in the theater surround concepts....Buck's Denon 3805 accepts that DVD signal from it's source, and calls ALL the speakers to attention and then marches them quite nicely or Brother Buck would not have it for HIS sounds....if you listen real close, you can even hear that receiver talking.....(with a left)....(and a left)....(and a left)....(right)....(left)....(Clint, save horses)....(ride cowgirls)....

[Buckeyefan 1]

Mule, you must have been a comedian in your last life. I am cracking up right now after 4 Miller high-lifes. Yes, the white trash beer commercials you see. Having been put on the South Beach Diet by my better half, I have succomb to eating greens and meats. No bread or carbs for dinner, but she is away for the weekend, so I am enjoying BEER tonight. And lots of it. I am off to Taco Hell for nachos supreme, a taco pizza, and burrito supreme. My gut may explode with all the lafter and crap I am putting in it tonight, but I will die a happy man - be it a few years earlier. What a great website. LOL. Oh, and if I can manage to stand straight, I'll get a dvd (hopefully encoded DTS) from Blockbuster. Purchased the all you can rent for $9.99 special and damn if I won't get my money's worth!

[mulester7]

.....Buck, we need to be able to come here and feel totally comfortable like we're sitting around a big table sipping coffee....most of the known World is not aware of this site's presence....but guys and gals, who cares?....the right people show up....let's just smile, take a deep breath, and talk to each other........Buck, I appreciate the comment, but my Daddy was the stand-up comic....and dryyyyyy delivery like used to be done on Cheers....I leaned on stuff for minutes sometimes when Daddy would lean over and quip something at me....one time when I was an older kid he and I walked into a motel lobby to get the rooms while my Brother and Mother stayed in the car....it was obvious somebody had just cut some THICK cheese in the small lobby and moved on....yeah, FARTED....Daddy leaned over to me and dryyyyly said, "smells like a sack fulla' ******** in here".....Buck, when I exploded, people were standing up in the restaurant looking over the partition.....

[algernon]

The only receiver out there better than the Denon 3805 for the money is the Marantz 8400 at www.ubid.com. It will auction out under $600. Had that been available when I bought my Denon, I would have gone with Marantz.

Buckeye,
I'm am strongly considering the 3805, and the Yam 2500. What is it about the Marantz that you prefer over your Denon?
Thanks.

[Buckeyefan 1]

I grew up around Marantz. Marantz has always made very high end receivers and amplifiers. Their stuff is built like a rock, and always very user friendly. Check out their older gear on ebay. Marantz, like McIntosh, has a cult like following. Those who use Marantz never seem to go to anything else. I've always considered Marantz one step up from Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, and the others. More on the lines with NAD, Rotel, B&K, and Adcom.

I had settled on the new Marantz SR8500, but no one was dealing on it. Then I had found some SR8400's that I liked, but they were all B stock and nothing was priced near the Denon 3805. A month after I bought my Denon, Ubid had a bunch of SR8400's and people were grabbing them up left and right.

Check out the specs on the new SR8500. Then you'll see why the SR8400 is such a bargain. IMO they are better than both the Yamaha 2500 and Denon 3805. The SR8500 is not at the same price point, so it's not a fair comparison, but the SR8400 retails for $1299, and getting one for under $600 is an absolute STEAL.

http://us.marantz.com/shop/_templates/category.asp?cat=15

[mulester7]

.....Buck, how was your canoe trip up 30-Pack River last night?.....

[mulester7]

.....question to anyone who might have experience with processors, and I'm talking about the ones that cost in the thousands like Lexicons....don't these units negate the need for a seperate pre-amp?....don't you input directly into them with all your whatever-impedence sources?.....

[mulester7]

......guys, love for audio is World-wide.....

http://www.faktiskt.se/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2953&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Buckeyefan 1]

.....Buck, how was your canoe trip up 30-Pack River last night?.....

Rented Oceans 12. 30 minutes into the movie, I found myself passed out on the couch. Need to finish watching it this afternoon. From what I remember, it was a bizarre opening to a movie. Taco Hell was good though. Found myself - as you can imagine - on the throne a few times today from the lovely Spanish food. I was able to get in about two hours at the driving range and helped move a guy into a house yesterday, so beer wasn't the only culprit of the early turn in.

I'm working on the last 4 High Lifes left in the case. Must do another beer run and hide the evidence before the better half gets home and thinks I obliterated an entire 30 pack in 5 days. There goes the SD diet.

[mulester7]

.....hahaha....haha....etc.....Buck, I think I'm working toward a system that will be my finest hour....slave amps everywhere.....mono center channel up high in the cathedral ceiling arch at both ends with either one or two XXXX XXX's....yeah, with XXX XXXX XXX XXXXXXXXXX......

[mulester7]

.....Die Hard Yammy....I wnat two apahluhgizze jwon mohre tyme....that wasn't the real me, I promise....

[mulester7]

.....I suspect a lot of you guys have been building your love of music for a long time....choirs and band in elementary or junior high schools usually beginning the journey....I opted for tenor trombone in the sixth grade, and switched to bass trombone in the 10th grade first year of high school....the high school program director and conductor of the main band, yeah, two bands, and they were large in count, anyhow, Mr. Brandon conducted high school clinics all over the South-Central and was in high demand for that function....we marched everyone in football season for a total of about 225 and that's a big program....I was in the main band all three years....I went on to the U of Arkansas system, UCA, (Central), and played in the band the whole time I was there until graduation....I was going with the prettiest majorette on Earth, haha, my third year of college and she was extremely accomplished on the alto clarinet.....she was an instrumental major and destined to be a shoe-in for the All-Conference band with rehearsals and concert in another town....folks, I had to think fast to be able to go with her, haha....I approached the university's band program/director/conductor, and asked Mr. Brown if there was a chance I could possibly entertain thoughts of being even last chair bass trombone in that band in the bass trombone section that always had at least three....he said he would see what he could do and told me my request was irregular with my not being an instrumental major....I said ok, sure....all the directors of about 10 branches of the U of A system got together and picked the honored band....the list of members chosen was posted on a bulletin board two weeks later in the lobby of the band complex at my school....I approached the list not knowing jack, and there on the list was my name in the bass trombone section....first chair....folks, I had to sit down for a few minutes and sip on a big orange fanning my face with a notebook...I walked to Mr. Brown's office and stood in the doorway staring at him with him staring back....he uttered the zenith compliment of my trombone playing career...."I thought about it, and you are a student at this university and a member of it's instrumental program, and in my opinion deserve the placement you received".........Folks, at that point, I was most luckiest there was another chair close and the orange was only half gone....upon graduation, I went on to play the bass trombone in the Arkansas Symphony for awhile, and the conductor brought in from Wisconsin was very demanding and I truly enjoyed that period with glorious strings now being brought into the picture....why in the World have I told you all this?....to maybe help you to trust me when I tell you what I am about to give you a link unto has magic in it....Erich Kunzel evidently demands more out of the Cincinnati Pops orchestra than other conductors demand out of some other orchestras....I notice a difference in the quick swells-to-cutoffs, attacks, and releases from this orchestra, which is what brings music to life....Erich surely has a pair of speakers, so this post qualifies for this board, haha....notice the used prices again....amazing CD with magic inside, I promise....not classical, either, patriotic stuff....with a pro choir on some selections....pro singers, trust me, I was a vocal major....the Christmas one by them I advised the other night, has a sweet spot about a minute into the first selection that makes the purchase worth it, IMMHO.....

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000003CUB/qid=1113773472/sr=8-7/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i7_xgl15/002-7225902-3676841?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

[mulester7]

.....Clint, make that a minute and 26 on the sweet spot....you know, on the Christmas one....first selection....if'n you don't agree, I'll place you in the category of the guy who claimed a report....what?....report about what you ask?....ahem....hmmmmm, it's now on the radar....interesting.....

[Tomorrow]

Mulie, I'm beginning to think you overly enjoy the sound of your own, uh, er, keyboard.

[mulester7]

.....Rjbudz, sorry to offend....I post different places....mainly Raging Bull on a couple of stock boards....this board I found a week ago is about equipment I'm familiar with on some levels....equipment I love to buy to reproduce that which I truly love....music....after a week, the honeymoon's pretty much over and you will hear me less, I promise.....

[Tomorrow]

No offense taken, Mulie. I was just holding up a little mirror for you.

[mulester7]

.....good man.....

[algernon]

....I think....

[Clint DeBoer]

....I think....I think that after 28 useless posts in a row (just to get your post count up) you are banned for a week.

Please do not do that again.

[Resident Loser]

...first, thanks for your response and my apologies for my tardiness in reciprocating...now for a bit more background...

As stated in my previous posts, my comments are based on the 901-IIs, the last acoustic suspension models, and from what I am made to understand, they are the pick of the litter...even so...I added my half-octave EQ to achieve their present state. The newer model Bose EQs do seem to have a bit more adjustment possibilities, but I would hazard a guess that there are limits.

Yes, they could be considered "bookshelf" in the widest of applications, but employing them in such a manner really runs counter to the whole design application IMO(Strictly speaking the model 501s were truly floorstanders, I believe there the others subsequent to them, but their designations were, escape me). They(the 901s) must be placed within some fairly restrictive guidelines to perform as intended...I wound up building a half-wall in my house to supply the needed reflective surface for my rt. channel...talk about flyin' in the face of WAF! But some folks go for far more room alterations such a LEDE and/or rugs on walls and bass traps, etc. That addition/alteration, some reasonable manipulation of the room acoustics, via agreed upon "decorating" ideas AND the SAE EQ are what is responsible for the system sounding as good as it does...I think the pedestals are a must...so be forewarned.

I am partial to the black myself(on the current crop, at least) however my 30yr. olds have a nicely figured walnut veneer from a time when wood was wood, possibly old growth, not like the current crop of tree-farm turn-out...as a DIY woodworker I have seen the quality of wood products deteriorate and the prices skyrocket. Anywho, I keep 'em clean(normally with Endust sprayed on the cleaning cloth) and polished(very ocassionally with Minwax for dark wood) and they look like a million!

I do hope you get the opportunity to listen for yourself...good luck.

jimHJJ(...and again, thanx...)

[Resident Loser]

...I'll make an assumption that part of your post was intended for me...It's difficult to tell with all the seemingly unrelated banter about...so in that light...

No, I'm not taking anything personal...I'm hardly defending BOSE...in fact, this past Saturday while visiting a local "warehouse-style" shopping club, I happened upon a display for a Bose 1-2-3 HTIB...while my better-half was going about her business I decided to play with the demo presentation and in the midst of it some fellow strolled over to take a gander. After a few minutes he opined "Bose IS the best, isn't it?"...to which I responded "Define best"...Well, after the standard yada, yada, yada, I explained to him that while I owned a few Bose products and they suited MY needs, there are any number of others who feel that Bose is overpriced, over-hyped, underperforming junk and further, that if his opinion is based simply on advertising slogans, without any real firsthand knowledge, he would do well to visit a hi-fi shop and listen for himself. I also explained the shortcomings re: potential upgrading (short of starting from scratch) and interfacing problems at the outset. The system does sound impressive...but...well, but.

I wasn't writing any off anyone as "...blithering idiots..." for any other reason than the lack of intelligent discourse and certainly not to make me "...feel better..." I really have no reason to inflate my self-esteem(note my moniker)I'm quite comfortable with myself, warts and all. I just wish all the Bose-bashing was based on real, first-hand experience, not merely jumping on the bandwagon of corporate condemnation and cheap shots. And I don't mean in a hi-fi(or lo-fi if you prefer)shop...unfortunately, I find myself in a position using some of the same type of rhetoric as do the wire-wackos...'ceptin' for the fact that I know wire is wire(and nothing can change that) and loudspeakers are a whole 'nother thing!

Before you write me off as some inexperienced aural virgin, prior to purchasing the 901s, I auditioned nearly all of their contemporaries, Advent, Allison, AR, Dynaco, Dahlquist, etc. there was something about the Bose design that intrigued me and the sound produced was unlike any of the others...so I went with my gut, again, 30yrs. ago...the DQ-10s were nice, but there was something that sounded "off" to me...it was only in later years I discovered the existence of the mirror-imaging mod and the improvement that it made...perhaps they would have been my choice if produced as modded...but still, they were a five-way design and all that crossover!!!

Insofar as my attitude re: the corporate suited swine, my displeasure with them is second to none...however this is hi-fi, a discretionary commodity at best and not something important like prescription drugs and such...

jimHJJ(...BTW, thanks for your response...)

[zipper]

I acknowledge that RL................sorry if I came across a bit harsh. I agree that hi-fi should be way down on the list of things to argue passionately about.............nothing life or death about it.

[Buckeyefan 1]

In defense of BOSE, (and I tread on that line lightly), you can compare a few automobile companies to them. Two in particular are Mercedes and Jaguar. I am into automobiles probably moreso than A/V. If anyone ownes one of the two above mentioned vehicles, then can vouch for the roller coaster type satisfaction they get from these cars. On one hand, they supposedly have one of the "best" luxury cars on the market. On the other hand, they spend an average of 5 times a year in the shop and have some of the worst reliability records. Bose, as well as MB and Ford's Jaguar, all do a great job advertising the brand, and making them a highly respected name in the general public. Go any further than the unknowning public, especially online forums and monthly mags, and you'll find the same problems that plague Bose. These three companies are pure genius when it comes to advertising and pulling the wool over the publics' eyes. Only after making the purchase, do some realize what actually just took place.

[Die Hard Yammy]

Hey Clint! I don't mean to sound caddy or start a fire here so bare with me.

I, and I'm sure many others, take issue with someone who comes here to Audioholics, and posts (I counted) 29 times on a single thread. Not that there's a problem with posting that many times, if those posts add value to said topic.

When some of the posts are merely to ask how your weekind was, it is a clear attempt to accelerate your member status here on the forum.

NOW! It's not like I'm the most informative of posters, or even post that frequently. But when I do post, it pertains to the particular thread in one way or another, be it advice or an opinion. This is (I've noticed) how most of us here at Audioholics operate.


All I'm saying is that this forum is something which should be treated with respect and a level of maturity, after all we are all adults here (I'm sure I'm one of the youngest "23") we should be able to post like them.

I decided not to name names, I'm sure we all know who's quilty of excessive posting.

[MarkOcena]

Sorry Yammy, I got you beat by 2 years. I know we could hang out now, I'm only one province down from ya! Anybody else around here from Winterpeg? (actually the weather great right now :cool: , compared for -40!)

[Clint DeBoer]

I, and I'm sure many others, take issue with someone who comes here to Audioholics, and posts (I counted) 29 times on a single thread.I think we banned the person you are speaking of for a week if you read above.

[Red]

I think we banned the person you are speaking of for a week if you read above.

looks like you may have banned the wrong person :confused:

[Die Hard Yammy]

It doesn't really matter who was banned, Clint has made an example that I think may wake some people up, and perhaps envoke some maturity!