Mirage S10 vs SVS PB 10

I have read great things about the SVS PB 10 but to get it delivered to Canada would cost me $650 total cost incl shipping and exchange rate...I can get a Mirage S10 for $600 approx. or maybe an eqyuvalent PSB model if anyone knows.?

Not such a great deal on the SVS now is it?

Thoughts? Anyone compared these?

I blew up my Polk PSW 404 last night watching Master and Commander. it's under warranty but I obviously have lost faith in it. I can trade it in, $250 towards the Mirage or PSB products.

much appreciated guys.

SVS and Hsu makes some great products, but I'm not sure that after importing them....they are still the best value. Hsu is available in Canada, but discounts are still rare (with some exception)

A PB10 costs around $480USD shipped + exchange rate + brokerage fees + tax. Yes don't forget about those brokerage fees. I'd estimate another $50-60 minimum just for those silly UPS fees.

I think the SVS would likely beat the PSB or the Mirage in absolute performance, but also at a higher price....so it's up to you whether you want to spend extra.

The other funny thing is that I just ordered a Mirage Omni S12 *today* after considering a Hsu VTF-3II as my top contender. While the Hsu will likely play a bit louder and cleaner, it was also a lot more expensive by about $250. The negotiated price of the Mirage S12 I'm buying is the same as Hsu STF-3 and just slightly more than a VTF-2, but all the reviews and measurements I've seen show the S12 to be superior to those two. I think this is a testament to the new ribbed surrounds which really does seem to allow them to reduce distortion and minimize the cabinet size.

So the case must be made for buying locally. I think you should go for the PSB Subsonic 6i if you can given your situation on trade-in. It did very well in the Sound and Vision measurements, and most people have said it's a really clean, tight sounding sub. Mirage certainly has made some reference quality and formidable subs in the past, so I'm certain that their Omni series is a good value (looking at the current reviews).

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/mirage_omni_s12.htm

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=5&article_id=663&page_number=9 (click on the PDF inside to see the measurements)

Warpdrive:

I have the PSB 6i here for the weekend for a demo, funny you should say that....The good review may just have sold me on it.... it blew me away in the store. It's $850 here before I talk him down a little...I am going to play with it in a bit...well let you know. Can't wait...

JC

btw...the Mirage wasn't even in the same league. my next question will be this PSB vs a Velodyne SPL II 800...it's $150 more, and i would be surprised if an 8"sub by anbody, even this one by Velodyne with 1000W, can sound better than a PSB 6i.... 12"has to go deeper than 8" you would think..

Did you compare the S10 or the S12? I think the Omni S12 is actually very comparable to the PSB 6i, but the S10 would be out of its the 6i's league. I heard the S12 right beside the PSB 6i, and with some test tracks, the S12 was pretty much on par (it was really hard to tell any difference by ear).

However, the S12 is more expensive normally making the 6i a better deal. I thought the S12 might have reached a little lower if anything but the 6i was very comparable for a cheaper price (at my dealer I can get the Mirage S12 for the same price as the 6i so that's why I went for it instead....I just liked the looks better without the front ports)

If you look again at the PDF measurements, the Energy S12.3 is a virtual clone of the Mirage S12 (300W BASH, about 50lbs, about the same size, similar 12" elipptical ribbed driver design and specs, two bottom ports, same parent company) and it is right up there in the sound quality and measurements. http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=5&article_id=663&page_number=4&preview=

I wouldn't bother with the Velodyne myself. They are good, but it's really hard to beat Canadian brand subs if you are in Canada. By the time you import all those other brands, the value starts to disappear.

The other problem with ordering SVS or others is that you are paying full price, and certainly if you compare the MSRP of retail brands, they really are a better value. But I have observed sometimes you can get a really good deal locally. I've bought speakers at 20, 25, 30, and even 40% off MSRP, often making retail speakers a comparable or better deal.

Johnny Canuck said:

my next question will be this PSB vs a Velodyne SPL II 800...it's $150 more, and i would be surprised if an 8"sub by anbody, even this one by Velodyne with 1000W, can sound better than a PSB 6i.... 12"has to go deeper than 8" you would think..

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The PSB 6i goes down to 29 Hz (-3dB) and the Velodyne SPL-800 II goes down to 28 Hz (-3dB). As for the 12" going deeper -- woofer size isn't everything. When you look behind the woofer, the Velodyne has a 204 oz magnet structure, whereas the PSB has a 53 oz magnet structure. Cone excursion is greater on the Velodyne, and the Velodyne is rated more than 4 TIMES the RMS power of the PSB. I'm not sure you're comparing apples to apples with these two subs.

I don't want to sound like a Velodyne snob (hehe) but you owe it to yourself to go and audition these subs you're considering in person. You might like the PSB better, you might like the Mirage better, or you might prefer the Velodyne. One thing is for certain, you won't know which you like the best without hearing them in identical environments.

Greg

It would be an interesting comparison to hear the Velodyne, it's such a different design. The designs are so different it's hard to compare them on paper.

My experience with ultra compact subs is that they really never stacked up to the larger boxes, but you never know....maybe this one is different. If you have an opportunity to hear it, then check it out. Unfortunately unless it's in the same environment, it's really hard to compare.

For that price of the Velodyne, I would stick with the Mirage S12 unless you REALLY need a compact cube. The S12 reaches lower than either the PSB or Velodyne in measurements. Actually, I'd still put the Hsu VTF-3 at the top of my list if I had to pay $950 (CDN) or more for a sub.

Hi Johnny. For what it's worth the PSB 6i is incredibly conservatively rated, and I thought it sounded great and really added impact and depth to both music and movies when I heard it. I am also a BIG PSB fan. But....

However I would recommend you contact HSU and ask for a list of local dealers. I helped smeone pick out an HSU from Toronto, the price they paid was pretty much the same as the MSRP from HSU He got the VTF2 for a great price, about $800 CAD, incl. tax. This 10 incher is a definite alternative to the 6i. Just thought you'd like to know.

I'd argue that a Hsu STF-3 is more directly comparable to the PSB 6i, than a VTF-2.

Since the STF-3 is $800+tax....it's debatable whether it's any better value.... Sound and Vision results for the Outlaw LFM1 (very close in specs and design to the STF-3) shows that the 6i is a better sub.

If you can get the Hsu at substantially below list price (negotiate with them....I think vendors like electronicsforless.ca in Toronto are flexible with pricing), then it would be really worth it to look at Hsu's VTF-3 and be done with it.

What is the diff between STF and VTF series? I emailed HSU for info but i will try the "electronics for less" site too...thanks so much.

Erik at SVS has been emailing me too...he says his PB10 goes down to 18hz, the PSB I have here goes to 30hz. i find this PSB maybe too much for my room now, but i am moving soon. Can one ever have too much bass??? I guess i can just turn it down. Better too much than not enough...

SVS is aying 3-5 days delivery to Canada. i don't believe that. i would really like to hear from someone who has a PB 10 and not someone who has just read about it on their web site...i am sceptical as their web site raves so much, as you would expect from an internet dealer. easy to be sold on words...i want to hear from real people. And those who have heard PSB, HSU and SVS and compared them all..

The STF models are designed for maximum output whereas the VTF models have a user selectable (maximum output, or maximum extension) modes. The VTF-2 performs no better than the STF-3 in terms of low frequency response but the STF-3 exceeds the VTF-3 in terms of output level capability. The VTF-3 is the best of both worlds, can play loud AND reaches below 20Hz flat.

So the VTF models are better in that you can custom tailor the sound for your needs. In the grand scheme of things, the VTF-3 is what you want. However, it is a BIG sub.

Fans of Hsu says that SVS subs are less "musical".

You don't really have to be sceptical because the SVS actual performance is well documented. However, just note that the SVS subs are quite big....wide, and deep, and that's how they got their good performance. All other things being equal, the bigger the box, the more bass you can get out of it.. I prefer Hsu for the reason they are more tall and narrow for the same volume, takes up less floorspace.


I still think you are better off buying a Mirage, PSB, Energy, or Paradigm sub in Canada. After discounts, you can do just practically as good, and it's really nice having the support of a local dealer. I had to return a set of brand new speakers to my dealer after they developed a buzz after three weeks...it cost me nearly nothing to drive to my dealer and have him give me a new set. I can't imagine shipping a 80LB sub back to the USA. Also, some dealers even have trade up policies. Certainly if you have a problem with the sub, it's is far better to deal with a Canadian distributor than directly with SVS in the USA.



I would't hesitate to buy a Hsu just because they have a Canadian distribution network.....and you don't have to pay extra UPS brokerage fees like you do importing an SVS.

Johnny Canuck said:

Erik at SVS has been emailing me too...he says his PB10 goes down to 18hz, the PSB I have here goes to 30hz

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Paul Barton of PSB has never been the one to overinflate his measurements. Certainly in real world scenarios, the PSB is capable of more than the suggested specs. Again look at the PDF on that S&V link....the specs of many of the subwoofers in that comparison beat the PSB...but the PSB had flatter frequency response and more extension than nearly all of them in lab measurements.

Thanks Warpdrive

I posted this somewhere else, but can you tell me about the down firing of the Hsu? Will my neighbours downstairs hear it more? And what about placement near a TV?

Thanks!! tough choice. this PSB sounds good, but it's over $100 more than the SVS. I still have not contacted a canadian Hsu dealer. thanks for explaining the model differences...

Johnny Canuck said:

I posted this somewhere else, but can you tell me about the down firing of the Hsu? Will my neighbours downstairs hear it more? And what about placement near a TV?

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The downstairs neighbors will hear it regardless of whether it is front, rear, or downfiring. Bass is omnidirectional and will go through just about anything.

If the sub is not magnetically shielded (the SVS is not) then it may cause interference with the TV if it is a CRT. If it is plasma/dlp/lcd/lcos etc it will not. Three feet is usually enough to eliminate the effect.

The Hsu VTF-3 is around $1000 (or less). So it is MORE than the 6i

http://www.homedigitalav.com/HSUSubs.html

Above poster is right, it doesn't matter which sub, bass goes through walls whether it front, down or side firing.

Thanks guys

The PSB 6i is listed here for $899 Canadian. I might be able to get him down to $800 if I am lucky. Can do better for that cash with the SVS or Hsu products.

The STF 3 is around that price.

I still see a huge difference in prices in Canada compared to US, even with brokerage and postage. There is no duty on electronics.

I think I was comparing the VTF 2 to the STF 3....sorry, got my numbers wrong.

so now it looks like the SVS PB10 vs Hsu STF3,

Johnny Canuck said:

Thanks guys

The PSB 6i is listed here for $899 Canadian. I might be able to get him down to $800 if I am lucky

Click to expand...

Ruled out the PSB so fast?

Our dealer here in Ottawa has had the PSB 6i on sale for $700 many times. So you should be able to do better than $800.

For most brands, you should be able to get a 20% discount off MSRP. Margins on speakers are quite large. I've gotten anywhere from 20%-30% off MSRP after negotiating....if you can't get the PSB 6i lower than $800, he's taking you for a ride.

Keep in mind that the PSB 6i *outperformed* the LFM-1 in the S&V review. The LFM-1 is Outlaw Audio's design which was inspired by the STF-3 (with input from Dr Hsu). And some people have said the 6i is a tighter, more linear sounding sub than the STF-3.

Johnny Canuck said:

Thanks guys
I still see a huge difference in prices in Canada compared to US, even with brokerage and postage. There is no duty on electronics.

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Yes there are no duties BUT you HAVE to pay GST/PST on imported goods once it crosses the border. When the UPS guy shows up at your doorstep, he's going to hand you an invoice where you pay BROKERAGE, UPS HANDLING FEES, **AND** GST/PST (which for most of the country is around 15%)

Here is a price comparison

IF you could import it yourself


Hsu STF-3

US price $599 USD
w/shipping $650 USD
exchange 1.23 approx
$799 CAD

Total $800+15% tax = $920 approx

Buy it from Ontario dealer.

If you live in Vancouver, and you order the sub from Toronto,
$799+$50 shipping+GST (don't have to pay PST because it is coming from Ontario)

$799+$50+GST = $909

Also, remember, the prices are negotiable.....some vendors will sell you the Hsu STF-3 for around $750.

So it's CHEAPER to buy in from Hsu dealer in Canada

Thanks warpdrive for all your effort

One thing, might make a small difference, GST/PST is charged on the product only, not the shipping or brokerage. Not much difference though.


I am more confused at the last post stating the PSB 6i is better than the Hsu STF 3. If I can get the PSB closer to $700, i may just do that. I have been listening to it this weekend and I like it. I don't have a Hsu or SVS to compare it to, but you Americans don't have a PSB sub to compare your Hsu and SVS products to. Once shipping/brokerage charges etc and the fact i have to send the 50 pound sub back if something goes wrong is considered, the PSB might be my best bet. We all have to remember these forums are US dominated and Canadian products, not as readily available there, are sometimes overlooked when comparing.

Johnny Canuck said:

but you Americans don't have a PSB sub to compare your Hsu and SVS products to. .

Click to expand...

PSB products are widely available in the USA (and well loved too).

Either the PSB 6i, or the STF-3 are excellent products....just buy what you are comfortable with. Whether one is better than another is debatable....what I do know is that the PSB 6i sounds excellent, and I have it on good word from personal trusted sources that Hsu is excellent also. But sometimes it's better to go with what you know than to take a risk on something you can't hear/touch before you buy.

I have no stake in whether you buy either....as I own neither.

If i suggest a SVS cylinder sub,i'm afraid someone will get pissed at me and call me a fanboy for SVS. HSU also has cylinder subs. Smaller footprint but taller.