Which Sub to Get? HSU or SVS? Which Model?

Hi everyone,

First off heres the skinny:
RX-V2500
Paradigm 11s
ADP-370
CC-370

The room is 20x15

Currently I have an old Kenwood sub, but it pretty much sux. I wanted to upgrade when I got my paradigms but I didn't have the $$$.
My budget is $600 MAX on sub. But if I can get by with less I will. There is no way I am going to be able to audition these subs (unfortunately) so I will need some opinions. Also, if anyone can help me narrow the list down like "that sub isn't enough sub for your room" that would be fine too...anyway...

Here are the subs I'm looking at:
HSU VTF 3 MK-2 (12")
HSU VTF 2 MK-2 (10")
HSU STF 3
SVS PB12-ISD
SVS 20-39PCi (I dig the cylinder design)

no one has a reply or opinion?

I think you will find that people here are pretty brand loyal....those with svs will recommend that, those with hsu will recommend that.......

My suggestion would be to buy the most expensive that you can afford of those you listed.....they seem to all get rave reviews.

It's better to have too much, then too little.....you can always turn it down a bit. IMHO


-chris

DSMCasey said:

Hi everyone,

First off heres the skinny:
RX-V2500
Paradigm 11s
ADP-370
CC-370

The room is 20x15

Currently I have an old Kenwood sub, but it pretty much sux. I wanted to upgrade when I got my paradigms but I didn't have the $$$.
My budget is $600 MAX on sub. But if I can get by with less I will. There is no way I am going to be able to audition these subs (unfortunately) so I will need some opinions. Also, if anyone can help me narrow the list down like "that sub isn't enough sub for your room" that would be fine too...anyway...

Here are the subs I'm looking at:
HSU VTF 3 MK-2 (12")
HSU VTF 2 MK-2 (10")
HSU STF 3
SVS PB12-ISD
SVS 20-39PCi (I dig the cylinder design)

Click to expand...

How much bass do you want?
The current issue of The $ensible $ound has a review of one of the SVS subs, not your choice

For your room, I think you should stick to the VTF3 or 12ISD as a minimum. You want something that plays deep and loud, and both of these will generate really clean 20Hz output at room filling volume. Either the VTF3 or 12ISD should be sufficient for good impact in your medium sized room.

As far as SVS vs Hsu, it's a tough call. Both should be good. Hsu did announce they will have an upgrade path for their subs to get even more output. I'd end up choosing based on finish/size/looks. I like the Hsu for the reason it has a smaller footprint and takes up less floorspace

(I dig the cylinder design)

Click to expand...

It's funny.... when SVS first started and for a LONG time after.... they "stuck to their guns" louding and praising the advantages of the cylinder design and it's acoustical advantages (not to mention it was MUCH cheaper for them to build a cardboard cylinder than a real wood box) over traditional "box" designs.

Now, they are tripping all over themselves to come out with the new "box" design of the month it seems (how MANY box designs do they make now?) to accommodate all tastes.

As for which brand will work for you, with your gear, in your room, only you can decide. I would suggest you request an audition at www.audioenvy.com and see if there is someone close to you that will allow you an audition.

Good luck in your search.

To be fair, I think their 'change of heart' is not a decision that boxes are better but a concession that boxes are what people want. I started a poll on the Hsu Forum, asking "Tubes vs Boxes, which did you buy?" and Hsu purchasers bought more boxes by a ratio of 2:1. Their tubes outperform their boxes by a significant margin, but they're passive, requiring outboard amplification, and their form factor guarantees low WAF.

In short, the tubular shape does have some wonderful properties, but at some point you're going to miss out on a lot of sales if you don't cater to those incapable of "thinking outside the box."

Rob Babcock said:

To be fair, I think their 'change of heart' is not a decision that boxes are better but a concession that boxes are what people want. I started a poll on the Hsu Forum, asking "Tubes vs Boxes, which did you buy?" and Hsu purchasers bought more boxes by a ratio of 2:1. Their tubes outperform their boxes by a significant margin, but they're passive, requiring outboard amplification, and their form factor guarantees low WAF.

In short, the tubular shape does have some wonderful properties, but at some point you're going to miss out on a lot of sales if you don't cater to those incapable of "thinking outside the box."

Click to expand...

Ok Rob.... I'll concede the point. I just remember my very first "sub search" and was immediately enamoured with the SVS cylinders. All it took though was one look by the WAF..... and it was NO WAY JOSE.... LOL.

I also concur that "tubes" can offer some advantages in some situations. What I find ironic though, is that tubes are significantly less expensive to build, yet their prices are not comparatively less expensive to the consumer.

Of course, who am I to argue with outstanding marketing to build bottom line margins?

>>>I also concur that "tubes" can offer some advantages in some situations. What I find ironic though, is that tubes are significantly less expensive to build, yet their prices are not comparatively less expensive to the consumer.<<<

If this is referring to SVS cylindrical subwoofers, it isn't very accurate. The cost differences between our standard "texture" black boxes and a comparable powered cylinder enclosure is negligible. Of course if you compare SVS powered cylinders to real wood grain boxes, the differences are much larger.

Tom V.
SVS

Tom Vodhanel said:

>>>I also concur that "tubes" can offer some advantages in some situations. What I find ironic though, is that tubes are significantly less expensive to build, yet their prices are not comparatively less expensive to the consumer.<<<

If this is referring to SVS cylindrical subwoofers, it isn't very accurate. The cost differences between our standard "texture" black boxes and a comparable powered cylinder enclosure is negligible. Of course if you compare SVS powered cylinders to real wood grain boxes, the differences are much larger.

Tom V.
SVS

Click to expand...

No, Tom.... Not SVS specifically. There is more than one manufacturer making cylindrical enclosures for subs. Again, I feel that in the designs that I have seen, I just can't imagine how the "tube" enclosure, which in the cases I have seen are basically SOME FORM of paper composit (yes, that's rather simplistic.... but true all the same) covered in grill cloth.... or even "high tech" material of some kind..... can possibly be as expensive to produce as a heavilly braced, then finished MDF cabinet.

Of course, I don't build subs, so my thoughts and opinions are just that.... thoughts and opinions.

I didn't mean to dissrespect you or SVS in any way. I just remember how "STRONGLY" you folks seemed to be commited to cylinders in the beginning (when I first discovered SVS about three years ago) to now, where it seems that there is a new "box" design being introduced everytime you visit the site. Quite a departure from the original programming so to speak.

Of course, as Rob quite correctly pointed out, it may be SVS just catering to the demand for "box" style subs to meet market demand and retain share. That's just good business.

Maybe I was a bit over the top in my original comments, so for that I apologize.

>>>I didn't mean to dissrespect you or SVS in any way. I just remember how "STRONGLY" you folks seemed to be commited to cylinders in the beginning (when I first discovered SVS about three years ago) to now, where it seems that there is a new "box" design being introduced everytime you visit the site. Quite a departure from the original programming so to speak.

Of course, as Rob quite correctly pointed out, it may be SVS just catering to the demand for "box" style subs to meet market demand and retain share. That's just good business.

Maybe I was a bit over the top in my original comments, so for that I apologize.<<<

Hi John, no apology needed in the least. I didn't take your comments as any sort of slight on SVS(or any cylindrical sub...

Price a sheet of 1.5" thick birch wood(laminated of course)...and I htink you'll begin to get an idea of the costs involved in some of our cylindrical models.
Consider the amount of CNC work needed on 2 caps for each subwoofer(in addition to the substantial raw material cost). Factor in the baseplate(which involves a machine process to apply the rubber T-molding, the grille, the custom made cloth(made out of very thick material---not "see thru thin grill cloth"---and the amp mount(which allows SVS to mount a flat amp to a curved surface and maintain integrity of the enclosure). Lastly, factor in an hour or two of labor tiime to build, QC, test and box each unit...and believe me it adds up VERY quickly.

The cylinder portion of the enclosure is relatively inexpensive compared to all of these costs...so I can understand how someone can look at it and assume it costs less than it really does..

Tom V.
SVS

Good evening gentlemen,

Even after all these years, we are very fond of the cylindrical design. A cylinder does not need any added thickness or bracing to remain structurally strong. A cylinder also allows the designer to maximize bass per given floorspace. Also, extremely long ports can be easily used in a cylinder design. Finally, cylinder subwoofers tend to be light and very easy to move around, and can sometimes be easily tucked away behind a sofa and out of view.

Our TN1220HO is priced higher than our VTF-3 MKII primarily because the class A/B and class H amps are more expensive to design and build. The class H amp can actually allow hookup of two subwoofers, 500 watts RMS delivered to one, or 400x2 total watts RMS delivered to two. Also, the TN1220HO is a bit cleaner at 20Hz at very high volume levels than the current VTF-3 MKII.

There are also many advantages to box subwoofer designs. The most obvious one is form factor. A box subwoofer can be used as an end table, can easily include a variety of cabinet finish options, and does not tend to dominate decor like a tall upright cylinder will do. Also, a box subwoofer enclosure need not be modified in order to accept a built in powered amp.

That said, the new VTF-3HO box subwoofer will outperform a TN1220HO in the low bass due to inclusion of some brand new technology. Dr. Hsu has developed a turbocharger solution that allows one to lower the tune on the subwoofer without reducing port flow area. So the VTF-3HO will have use of DUAL huge 4" ports in 18Hz tune with the turbo. We will also be offering a relatively low-cost upgrade option on current VTF-3 MKII, STF-3, and VTF-2 MKII subwoofers that should significantly improve performance, based on new technology that we are working on.

Ultimately, box subwoofers are by far the most popular form factors for consumers, but we will always have a deep appreciation for the beauty and simplicity of the cylindrical design.

There are many excellent products available on the market. Choose the one that least compromises in the areas that you consider to be important.

Sincerely,

Peter Marcks
Hsu Research

I think everyone agrees port flow is important. SVS definitely does. A subwoofer like our PB12-plus/2 for example...TRIPLE 4" widely flared ports...all open with quasi-anechoic response down to the 21-22hz range(+/- 2dB!). And with one port plugged, which gives us DUAL 4" widely flared porting...our anechoic response is flat down to the 18hz range. Of course, in room...you can expect even deeper extension. This model has been out for years...I guess we were ahead of our time. Some of the more astute DIYers have been posting "turbo built in" on these models now..

That port flow is combined with 900w (rms), and dual 12" drivers with almost 2" of linear peak to peak excursion too.

Tom V.
SVS

Tom, I recently helped someone purchase a HT system for their home. I was trying to choose between SVS and HSU. I was about to order an SVS sub for them sight unseen, but then I read that HSU had established a dealer network here in Canada, and sure enough there were a couple that were close enough for a demo. We loved the quality of the sub and bought it on the spot. I am sure that you manufacture subs of the same outstanding quality, and my post is to ask you whether or not SVS plans to open up shop in Canada any time soon? I know that you ship here but the cost of getting one of your subs shipped up here negates the cost savings of buying direct from you, and honestly puts you into the price range of other comparable products. I am not saying I think either of your sub companies is better, but I do think HSU has the jump on you up here.

Hi takereasy...

That is definitely on our *to do* list.

Unfortunately, that list includes...

1)rolling out the PB12-ultra/2 in real wood veneering
2)rolling our the PB12-plus/2 in real wood veneering
3)the new redesigned PB12-ultra in real wood veneering
4)the new redesigned PB12-plus in both real wood and textured black
5)a powered version of the B12-plus/4
6)our smaller *cube* subwoofer
7)our first offerings into full range speakers

And that is really just the tip of the iceberg...

So it may take a while...but it IS something we hope to get done asap.

Tom V.
SVS

HSU VTF3 MKII upgrade?

" We will also be offering a relatively low-cost upgrade option on current VTF-3 MKII, STF-3, and VTF-2 MKII subwoofers that should significantly improve performance, based on new technology that we are working on."

Peter
Thanks for the info.
Can you tell us when this upgrade will be available?

I'm Impressed!

We've got both HSU and SVS reps online.

Two questions I have for either of you or anybody else that wants to chime in are:

1. What's the useful life of a subwoofer? I have a Mirage PS-12-90 that's almost 12 years old. I recently had it in the shop to repair a loose connection in the amp that was causing a hum. This has gotten me to think about upgrading my Mirage and I have been looking at both SVS and HSU.

2. How has the technology changed in sub design in the past twelve years. Besides having more power than my current sub what else should I be listening for?

Thanks.

Dear bray,

The low-cost upgrades on the existing box products >= VTF-2 MKII probably will not be available until closer to summer time, and closer to the launch of the new VTF HO series. Should be well worth the wait though, and we hope you guys enjoy it!

Sincerely,

Any plans still pending for a new tube flagship model, Peter? I've heard the rumors for some time, just eager for some "official" news.

Dear Duffinator,

Speaker technology has definitely significantly improved over the last 12 years. There have been many advancements in amplifier and driver design in particular that lead to more efficient and better sounding products. Recent advancements also include use of built-in room equalization software, featured on the Velodyne DD series.

That said, the basic fundamentals for high output ported subwoofers have not changed for many many years. Subwoofer designers of ported subwoofers are still generally limited to a certain extent by box size, as there is only so long and large a port(s) that can fit inside any given box size. Also, using a larger diameter port requires more port length in order to match or exceed the tuning point of a smaller diameter port. That's one reason why the tall cylindrical design is clever, since you can fit a very long and large port(s). The TN1220HO has a huge port that is in excess of 28 inches long!

The VTF HO series will challenge some of these traditions in a major way on box subwoofers. The turbocharger technology will allow one to effectively lower the tune without increasing actual box size or depth, and without decreasing available port flow area. Brilliant design from the genius Dr. Hsu himself.

Sincerely,