Rockets versus B&W's

[Pete Dzwonkas]

Anybody own the Onix Rocket loudspeakers? The 750 looks good and a new 850 is coming out. Read a review where they outdid price-comparable Paradigms side-by-side, especially the tweeters. Was considering the B&W 703's and an HTM7 or even the HTM1 ($2k) with already owned DS6's. But for way less dough, the 850's and their center run $2600 total and the 2 pair of surrounds are only $600 each (to do 7.1 want 2 pair). I could save $1000 by getting 7 speakers from them versus 3 speakers from B&W. Don't want to be dissapointed though, so looking for any experience here.

http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=speakers&brand=3

[furrycute]

I heard those Rockets side by side with Paradigms. No comparison, I preferred the Paradigms hands down. The Rockets have a narrow soundstage, way too much bass boom, not so great imaging.

[Nomo]

I have yet to hear the Rockets, but I have heard both Paradigm and B&W.
Keeping the cost out of it, to me, the B&Ws win hands down.
Throwing in the cost factor makes it a tough choice.
Can you listen to both side by side?

[Lagger]

I heard those Rockets side by side with Paradigms. No comparison, I preferred the Paradigms hands down. The Rockets have a narrow soundstage, way too much bass boom, not so great imaging.

Thats too bad, cause the Rockets look nice :) By comparison, what speakers do you own/run, and have you heard similiar priced Axioms perhaps?

What else competes in the $1,000 range for similiar floorstanding speakers? Thanks

[zumbo]

This is what I use: MB Quart (http://www.mbquart.com/2003/en_US/products/prod_detail.asp?isArchive=&cat=home&series=s%20line&strt=1&model=QL+S830)

I would choose them over Paradigm for sure. B&W 703's would be a tough choice. But when you figure in the cost, the Quarts win hands down. Now, B&W 803's are another story. They are my favorite. But, for the money, I chose the MB Quart 830's.
Don't get me wrong, Paradigm would be the speakers of choice after the others.

They are 4 ohm.

[Lagger]

Zumbo,

What do those run $$$ wise? Yawa's page is down. Thanks.

This is what I use: MB Quart (http://www.mbquart.com/2003/en_US/products/prod_detail.asp?isArchive=&cat=home&series=s%20line&strt=1&model=QL+S830)

I would choose them over Paradigm for sure. B&W 703's would be a tough choice. But when you figure in the cost, the Quarts win hands down. Now, B&W 803's are another story. They are my favorite. But, for the money, I chose the MB Quart 830's.
Don't get me wrong, Paradigm would be the speakers of choice after the others.

They are 4 ohm.

[zumbo]

They go on & off sale like a relationship in a soap opera. I paid $999.00 a pair for mine. During Thanksgiving, they had them for $699.00 a pair. :eek: They have a 30 day "no questions asked" return policy on Quarts only. You will love them!

[furrycute]

Thats too bad, cause the Rockets look nice :) By comparison, what speakers do you own/run, and have you heard similiar priced Axioms perhaps?

What else competes in the $1,000 range for similiar floorstanding speakers? Thanks


Looks can often be deceiving. You cannot judge a book by its cover. You have to actually hear those speakers side by side with other speakers. The Rockets do have beautiful cabinets, no doubt about it. But soundwise, they leave A LOT to be desired.

Under 1 grand, there are a lot of commercially available options, offering superior sound compared to the Rockets. Aside from the Paradigms, I have heard the Infinities, Monitor audio, Energy, and even Boston Acoustics makes some really nice floorstanders under 1 grand that sound much better than the Rockets.

I heard the Rockets towers and the Paradigm towers side by side at a local audiophile meeting. The owner of those Rockets wanted to get rid of them after the meet. Last I heard, unfortunately he couldn't find any buyer for them, even at significant losses.

[VS540]

Looks can often be deceiving. You cannot judge a book by its cover. You have to actually hear those speakers side by side with other speakers. The Rockets do have beautiful cabinets, no doubt about it. But soundwise, they leave A LOT to be desired.

Under 1 grand, there are a lot of commercially available options, offering superior sound compared to the Rockets. Aside from the Paradigms, I have heard the Infinities, Monitor audio, Energy, and even Boston Acoustics makes some really nice floorstanders under 1 grand that sound much better than the Rockets.

I heard the Rockets towers and the Paradigm towers side by side at a local audiophile meeting. The owner of those Rockets wanted to get rid of them after the meet. Last I heard, unfortunately he couldn't find any buyer for them, even at significant losses.

That's pretty unusual considering most side by side or blind A/B testing has the Rockets coming out on top.

I listened to B&W, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, Boston, Atlantic and some others and the Rockets to me bested all them. Paradigm Studio's were very bright and thin and boomy. B&W 600 series and CM series were also bright and lacked bass. Boston and Atlantic couldn't even compare to the B&W and Para which I didn't like. Monitor Audio was the best B&M speaker I heard in my price range, very smooth, open soundstage, and dynamic. I then tried the Rocket 750 Sigs, RSC200 and RSS300's and thought those were even better than the Monitor Audio's. I will soon be getting the 850's as well.

I know there have been several threads on the AV123 forum where people prefered 750's over Paradigm Studio 100's v.3 in side by side and also many B&W speakers.

If I were you try to audition some 1st before buying anything. You can go to http://www.audioenvy.com/ and look or go to the av123 forum and ask for some help.

[zumbo]

That's pretty unusual considering most side by side or blind A/B testing has the Rockets coming out on top.

I listened to B&W, Paradigm, Monitor Audio, Boston, Atlantic and some others and the Rockets to me bested all them. Paradigm Studio's were very bright and thin and boomy. B&W 600 series and CM series were also bright and lacked bass. Boston and Atlantic couldn't even compare to the B&W and Para which I didn't like. Monitor Audio was the best B&M speaker I heard in my price range, very smooth, open soundstage, and dynamic. I then tried the Rocket 750 Sigs, RSC200 and RSS300's and thought those were even better than the Monitor Audio's. I will soon be getting the 850's as well.

I know there have been several threads on the AV123 forum where people prefered 750's over Paradigm Studio 100's v.3 in side by side and also many B&W speakers.

If I were you try to audition some 1st before buying anything. You can go to http://www.audioenvy.com/ and look or go to the av123 forum and ask for some help.

Will you list your audio equipment used in which your opinion is based? I find it hard to believe. Also, 600 & CM series are not mentioned here. Also, which model Monitor Audio's did you audition? I did a side-by-side test with the GR 20 vs. B&W 703's & 803's. While Monitor Audio had more low end, the detail & purity of the vocals, strings, drums, & so on could not even come close to B&W. There were six audiophiles in the room, and five picked the B&W 703"s & 803's first. The sixth person was a M/A rep. Go figure.

[Pete Dzwonkas]

Thanks for the replies guys. I don't want to turn this into a $1000 speaker search. I'm planning on spending considerably more and it appeared that the driver quantities and overall sizes compared to the B&W 703's and I thought, what the heck, you get a 30 day return on them except for the hefty shipping, so I might be able to save a little money and find something a little out of the mainstream. This is coming from a guy who owns Acoustat 3300's with sub at 6' 6" and 33" wide. I did find some folks at the AV Forum who really liked the Rockets and it stirred my curiosity to be different.

[VS540]

Will you list your audio equipment used in which your opinion is based? I find it hard to believe. Also, 600 & CM series are not mentioned here. Also, which model Monitor Audio's did you audition? I did a side-by-side test with the GR 20 vs. B&W 703's & 803's. While Monitor Audio had more low end, the detail & purity of the vocals, strings, drums, & so on could not even come close to B&W. There were six audiophiles in the room, and five picked the B&W 703"s & 803's first. The sixth person was a M/A rep. Go figure.

I know the 600 and CM was not mentioned I was stating which speakers I listened to compared to the Rockets. The Monitor Audio's were the Silver series S8's, SLCR, and SFX. Gear used for the 600 series was a Pioneer Elite AVR and dvd player (can't remember models). For the CM were Aragon separates, for the Boston and Atlantic was a Denon AVR and another Pioneer Elite AVR, for the Monitors was a Rotel AVR, and for the Paradigms was a Sony ES AVR and then also Lexicon separates. For the Rockets is a Pioneer Elite 56TXi and soon a separate amp (perhaps Rotel 1095 or Gemstone Blue Diamond).

What's hard to believe? That I have my own personal tastes in audio and didn't like the other speakers I heard? If there was one perfect speaker that EVERYONE liked then there wouldn't be hundreds of brands and thousands of models to choose from. Don't get hung up by the fact people have their own tastes in what sounds good, looks good, feels good or anything else. I happen to like the Rocket sound just like thousands of others also do, then there are thousands who wouldn't.

Also Pete I think the 850's would be a better bet than the 750's in a comparison to B&W 700 series.

[furrycute]

That Rocket 750 signature model is by no means a bargain at $1499. You can find several Paradigm and PSB floorstander models for less.

A bit of history on the 750. The original 750 model had a severely rolled off high end, a very boomy bottom end.

The 750 signature model was created in response to all the complaints people brought up. From what I understand, the original 750 model cabinet and drivers were retained for the signature model. I don't know what exactly was changed in the signature model. But I just fail to see how much can be salvaged from a fundamentally flawed original design.

[VS540]

That Rocket 750 signature model is by no means a bargain at $1499. You can find several Paradigm and PSB floorstander models for less.

A bit of history on the 750. The original 750 model had a severely rolled off high end, a very boomy bottom end.

The 750 signature model was created in response to all the complaints people brought up. From what I understand, the original 750 model cabinet and drivers were retained for the signature model. I don't know what exactly was changed in the signature model. But I just fail to see how much can be salvaged from a fundamentally flawed original design.


Go to the AV123 forum and ask people what they have compaired their Rockets to and make sure you tell them that how "fundamentally flawed" they all are. :rolleyes:

[furrycute]

http://forum.av123.com/showthread.php?threadid=5859

Read it here on how "laid back" the 750 really is. Please note, laid back is euphomism for rolled off high end, exaggerated low end. As to the level of detail the 750 model brings out, I would take that with a grain of salt. The descriptive terms smooth and detailed almost always contradict each other.

The original 750 was hyped to be the best speaker ever made, surpassing the Dunlavy's, Dynaudio's, B&W's, etc. Then the 750 signature came out, and these were hyped to be the best speakers ever made. Then the Onix reference line came out, and those were hyped to be the best speakers ever made. Maybe it's me, but I am skeptical of any company that claims to come out with 3 successive "best speakers in the world" within a span of 2 years. After all, Intel only comes out with a better computer chip once every year or so. :rolleyes:

[furrycute]

And don't even get me started on the shady internet discussion forum advertising this company engages in. This company is known to use its employees to register at various online audio discussion forums, and from there pose as independent consumers, hyping up the Rocket line of speakers.

Go to www.avsforum.com, and do a search on the keyword "rockets" in the speakers' discussion forum. Read those posts from about a year and a half ago. There was quite a backlash against all the shady shill advertising. The forum administrator checked the IP addresses of those members hyping the Rockets, and guess what, most of those IP addresses belong to one company (you can guess which company it is).


If there is one thing I loathe the most in business, it is dishonesty in advertising. I have no problems with companies doing online advertising, as long as those companies clearly identify themselves as the advertisers. However I have BIG problems with companies engaging in shill advertising, that is using its employees to pose as independent consumers giving favorable reviews to that company's products.

The sound quality of the Rocket line of speakers is average at best (many would say it is below par). Yet that company actively engages in shill advertising, hyping up the sound quality, planting the idea in novice hometheater enthusiasts that they are saving A LOT of money if they purchase internet direct speakers such as the Rockets. This is absolute nonsense. Walk into any respected audio store, and you will find established brand name speakers that offer superior audio quality, compared to the Rockets, at far more attractive prices.

[TinHere]

And don't even get me started on the shady internet discussion forum advertising this company engages in. This company is known to use its employees to register at various online audio discussion forums, and from there pose as independent consumers, hyping up the Rocket line of speakers.

Go to www.avsforum.com, and do a search on the keyword "rockets" in the speakers' discussion forum. Read those posts from about a year and a half ago. There was quite a backlash against all the shady shill advertising. The forum administrator checked the IP addresses of those members hyping the Rockets, and guess what, most of those IP addresses belong to one company (you can guess which company it is).


If there is one thing I loathe the most in business, it is dishonesty in advertising. I have no problems with companies doing online advertising, as long as those companies clearly identify themselves as the advertisers. However I have BIG problems with companies engaging in shill advertising, that is using its employees to pose as independent consumers giving favorable reviews to that company's products.

The sound quality of the Rocket line of speakers is average at best (many would say it is below par). Yet that company actively engages in shill advertising, hyping up the sound quality, planting the idea in novice hometheater enthusiasts that they are saving A LOT of money if they purchase internet direct speakers such as the Rockets. This is absolute nonsense. Walk into any respected audio store, and you will find established brand name speakers that offer superior audio quality, compared to the Rockets, at far more attractive prices.

I chanced upon this thread and felt compelled to register and reply to your false allegations of any misrepresentation by AV123. Wherever they post their affiliation with AV123 is declared in their signatures. They aren't paid shills hiding their affiliation. There are many posts that may seem to be written by paid shills, but the reality is that they are written by very satisfied customers. Your false representations of the people who work for AV123.com have been answered ad nauseum on many forums, and are not based in truth. The facts belie your statements. AV123 isn't a huge faceless conglomerate, but comprised of very honorable people that have a reputation for products that often excede expectations and excellent customer service. Both the products and their customer service have been written about glowingly by people that were one time skeptics. Their speakers may not be everone's cup of tea, but the honor with which the company, headed by Mark Schifter, has set a very high standard that has garnered them an enthusiastic following.

Show some proof of the allegations you made about the IP addresses, and then tell me why they are still allowed to post. Not liking their speakers is ok with me, but making false statements about a company and how they they conduct their business practices require more than a statement that I know is a perpetuation of false rumors should not go uncontested. Get the facts before you make statements that only seem intended to damage reputations. The problem AVS had with Rocket's was caused by a small number of people with an agenda to turn any mention of AV123 products into flame wars that subsequently caused the threads to be closed. AV123 has a lot of very satisfied customers that enjoy their products [a matter of personal preference] and laud the way they conduct their business. Your negative statements about them are simply not fact based and sadly are still being perpetuated by some people who are either misinformed or have an agenda.


BTW Pete I own 750 Classics, RSC200[Bigfoot], and 300's which still put a grin on my face. Try to get an audition thru AudioEnvy or post on the AV123.com forum and see if you can get an audition. Many, many people will have very positive things to say about Rocket's and AV123 if you take the time to do some research. Unfortunately the first response you got to your inquiry was loaded with falsehoods, albeit a personal take. Most people comment that the soundstaging is more than adequate, the bass is tight and accurate, and the highs from the Vifa tweeter are detailed without being fatiguing. You may not like the sound of the Rocket's [then try the Reference Series], but you will be hard pressed to find a company that is a better buying experience or offers more support.

Enjoy your choice.

[zumbo]

I know the 600 and CM was not mentioned I was stating which speakers I listened to compared to the Rockets. The Monitor Audio's were the Silver series S8's, SLCR, and SFX. Gear used for the 600 series was a Pioneer Elite AVR and dvd player (can't remember models). For the CM were Aragon separates, for the Boston and Atlantic was a Denon AVR and another Pioneer Elite AVR, for the Monitors was a Rotel AVR, and for the Paradigms was a Sony ES AVR and then also Lexicon separates. For the Rockets is a Pioneer Elite 56TXi and soon a separate amp (perhaps Rotel 1095 or Gemstone Blue Diamond).

What's hard to believe? That I have my own personal tastes in audio and didn't like the other speakers I heard? If there was one perfect speaker that EVERYONE liked then there wouldn't be hundreds of brands and thousands of models to choose from. Don't get hung up by the fact people have their own tastes in what sounds good, looks good, feels good or anything else. I happen to like the Rocket sound just like thousands of others also do, then there are thousands who wouldn't.

Also Pete I think the 850's would be a better bet than the 750's in a comparison to B&W 700 series.

Thanks for the reply. This is what I expected. Look at the different equipment used to drive the speakers during the auditions. Of course the Monitor Audio were the best.
http://www.monitoraudiousa.com/products/silver/series/s8.htm. Along with the fact they were on a Rotel! I am sure the Rockets are nice. But in no way do they compete with B&W 700 series & 800 series. Also, you did not list which 600 series was used? I also understand people have their own taste. This is why B&W is a world leader in speaker technology. This is also why Paradigm has grown so quickly!

[zumbo]

Everyone is getting too flamed about this. The point is not that the Rockets are not good. The point is, as far as my posting, that they can NOT compare to B&W 703's. NO HOW, NO WAY! PERIOD!

[VS540]

http://forum.av123.com/showthread.php?threadid=5859

Read it here on how "laid back" the 750 really is. Please note, laid back is euphomism for rolled off high end, exaggerated low end. As to the level of detail the 750 model brings out, I would take that with a grain of salt. The descriptive terms smooth and detailed almost always contradict each other.



http://forum.av123.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6527 I guess this graph is just another lie and part of the "conspiracy"?

[Ross]

I to have gotten to audition diff. models that av123 has to offer at local meet-n-greets, both towers and bookshelves.

I would have to agree that they do leave a bit to be desired, especially after all of the glowing comments from their followers.

Most people will litter these pages with justifications for why they bought a particular product. After all, most people don't want to think they made a bad decision after all of the deliberation and research they've conducted, and often times it gets personal...

anywho...

At this particular price point, I would have to say that there are definitely some strong contendors and/or better choices out their, compared to the rockets. Paradigm, Boston, Polk, Energy, B&W, are just a few...

After all, this is a company that had a very rocky start, due to legal troubles with B&W...

best,
Ross.

[TinHere]

I to have gotten to audition diff. models that av123 has to offer at local meet-n-greets, both towers and bookshelves.

I would have to agree that they do leave a bit to be desired, especially after all of the glowing comments from their followers.

Most people will litter these pages with justifications for why they bought a particular product. After all, most people don't want to think they made a bad decision after all of the deliberation and research they've conducted, and often times it gets personal...

anywho...

At this particular price point, I would have to say that there are definitely some strong contendors and/or better choices out their, compared to the rockets. Paradigm, Boston, Polk, Energy, B&W, are just a few...

After all, this is a company that had a very rocky start, due to legal troubles with B&W...

best,
Ross.

Gotta jump in again.

The glowing comments come from people that liked what they heard and obviously have different preferences than you do. Both opinions are correct. Stating what makes x better than y in one's opinion can help people find a speaker they like assuming they share your tastes or not.

The "rocky start" you claim they had was over a "trade dress" issue [top mounted tweeters] with the Diva by Swan speakers that they distributed. This was before the introduction of the Rocket line that was already being planned. BTW Diva's are still being distributed so I guess in reality it wasn't much of a legal issue, and certainly not worth the costs of time and money to prove a point. IIRCC Wharfdale was also named and continued to make speakers with top mounted tweeters. Anybody can threaten anybody with legal action, but it doesn't mean that they have a case nor should it reflect badly unless that case has been proven. Their start was anything but "rocky" as evidenced by their successes and expansion. AV123 and their products have been thoroughly scrtuinized by very demanding on line enthusiasts and their following continues to grow with satisfied customers. They have earned their good name and deserve, from a business stand point, not to have that good name denegrated with off handed comments and half truths.

[Ross]

If you like your rockets, then by all means enjoy them.

My basic point, is that av123 does not make a superior product when compared to other various brands at equal price points.

They are just another duck in the pond...nothing more...nothing less...

best,
Ross.

[TinHere]

If you like your rockets, then by all means enjoy them.

My basic point, is that av123 does not make a superior product when compared to other various brands at equal price points.

They are just another duck in the pond...nothing more...nothing less...

best,
Ross.

I do enjoy them. Thank you.

Your basic point is an opinion that I'm not here to argue. It's way too subjective an issue to reach an accord other than to each his own, or agree to disagree.

If all ducks are the same I can see how I can agree with your last statement.

Nuff said. I'm not here to stir things up. I just wanted to correct some misstatements about AV123.

Enjoy your system as well. :cool:

[furrycute]

Not all ducks are created equal. Just as not all cars, not all speakers are created equal.

A BMW (B&W) would give me much better handling, smoother acceleration, better ride, compared to a KIA (Rocket). :cool:

[zumbo]

But you do get a 100,000 mile warranty with a KIA! And, you save some bucks. But, that does not make it a better car. Not even second best. Come to think of it, I would say it would be right down at the bottom! :eek:

[furrycute]

Actually I am thinking about buying a new car soon. :D

[VS540]

Not all ducks are created equal. Just as not all cars, not all speakers are created equal.

A BMW (B&W) would give me much better handling, smoother acceleration, better ride, compared to a KIA (Rocket). :cool:


Obviously not all opinions are created equal either as I and many others disagree, and feel the Rockets out class B&W, Paradigm, PSB, Klipsch, etc. in looks and sound.

Sorry I came into the game as many others did, fully expecting the Rockets to fail and already being somewhat biased against them. It wasn't until I saw and heard the Rockets that I knew/thought, they out performed B&M speakers in the same or above price range.

If you don't like them then fine, but to tell others they are bad sounding or of poor quality is ridiculous. I could say the same about the B&W's and Para's I listened to. I don't because I at least have the sense to understand audio is mainly opinion. What one person likes others may hate, when I recommend speakers to people I'm honest and make it a point to let them know it's all about personal preference. I recommend B&W, Paradigm, Klipsch, etc. even though I personally dislike them, they unlike me might love them. People should pick speakers by using their own ears not by some popularity contest, that is usually highly biased to begin with.

Oh and furrycute your allegations are just that, nothing more than allegations. Since AV123 so shady you better go warn the 16+ other speaker/electronic companies doing business with AV123 and having their products made and or developed by them. Some of which are very well respected and high end companies. If that's not enough call up Arnie Nudell of Genesis and Paul McGowan of PS Audio and ask them what they think of Mark Schifter (founder of AV123). I think they would sing nothing but praise about Mark, his products, and his company.

[zumbo]

furrycute: Have you been to your nearest Infiniti dealer? They are after BMW. You can't stay on top forever. I think KIA has a long way to go. :D

[zumbo]

Obviously not all opinions are created equal either as I and many others disagree, and feel the Rockets out class B&W, Paradigm, PSB, Klipsch, etc. in looks and sound.

Sorry I came into the game as many others did, fully expecting the Rockets to fail and already being somewhat biased against them. It wasn't until I saw and heard the Rockets that I knew/thought, they out performed B&M speakers in the same or above price range.

If you don't like them then fine, but to tell others they are bad sounding or of poor quality is ridiculous. I could say the same about the B&W's and Para's I listened to. I don't because I at least have the sense to understand audio is mainly opinion. What one person likes others may hate, when I recommend speakers to people I'm honest and make it a point to let them know it's all about personal preference. I recommend B&W, Paradigm, Klipsch, etc. even though I personally dislike them, they unlike me might love them. People should pick speakers by using their own ears not by some popularity contest, that is usually highly biased to begin with.

Oh and furrycute your allegations are just that, nothing more than allegations. Since AV123 so shady you better go warn the 16+ other speaker/electronic companies doing business with AV123 and having their products made and or developed by them. Some of which are very well respected and high end companies. If that's not enough call up Arnie Nudell of Genesis and Paul McGowan of PS Audio and ask them what they think of Mark Schifter (founder of AV123). I think they would sing nothing but praise about Mark, his products, and his company.

I think Primus, or Sam L. Jackson said,"you can put pearls on a pig, but it's still a pig."

[furrycute]

furrycute: Have you been to your nearest Infiniti dealer? They are after BMW. You can't stay on top forever. I think KIA has a long way to go. :D

There is an Infiniti dealer about 10 miles from where I live. Will give the Infiniti's a try. Thanks for the tip. :D

[zumbo]

The wife has had a G35 coupe for a little over two years. It has not been back to the dealer once. It is a very well made car, and it will get it! The G35 sedan gets the 280 hp engine for '05!

[furrycute]

http://www.infiniti.com/m/static/i/pac/ban_g35coupe_packages_1.jpg

Nice! :D

[zumbo]

That's her baby. I would post some pics, but I have not sprung for the digital camera yet.

[Ross]

A quick observation:

Most every post, 9 out of 11 (VS540) has made at this forum is based on the defense of rocket loudspeakers...

Most every post, 3 out of 4 (TinHere) has made at this forum is also based on the promotion or defense of rocket loudspeakers...

hmmmmmmmmmm.....

must be coincidence...

c'mon fellas....

Ross.

[furrycute]

You don't say! :eek:


A quick observation:

Most every post, 9 out of 11 (VS540) has made at this forum is based on the defense of rocket loudspeakers...

Most every post, 3 out of 4 (TinHere) has made at this forum is also based on the promotion or defense of rocket loudspeakers...

hmmmmmmmmmm.....

must be coincidence...

c'mon fellas....

Ross.

[TinHere]

A quick observation:

Most every post, 9 out of 11 (VS540) has made at this forum is based on the defense of rocket loudspeakers...

Most every post, 3 out of 4 (TinHere) has made at this forum is also based on the promotion or defense of rocket loudspeakers...

hmmmmmmmmmm.....

must be coincidence...

c'mon fellas....

Ross.

What hmmmmmmmmmmm?

C'mon fellas what?

If untrue statements are made they should be corrected. I made very clear in my first post why I felt compelled to join. It's no coincidence, it's simply a matter of not letting false and derogatory comments stand unchallenged as if they were factual. Be assured if it wasn't VS540 or myself there would be someone else to defend a well deserved good name if the trash talk posted was noticed. We just happened to see it and responded.

What do you do when you see someone you care about getting bashed? I was one of Mark's first customers at AV123 and one of the first to share the very positive experience I had in my dealings with them online. I've had e-mail correspondence, phone conversations, and spent time with Mark. The comments made totally misrepresented his company and their ethics. I'm pretty burned out with posting on forums, but this is a subject that motivates me.

I'd be talking about cars too if I had a position I couldn't defend. You can close ranks, agree that the falsehoods have merit, and I'm part of a conspiracy, but it doesn't make you right. Now I'm at four out of five.

[T-Bone]

I heard those Rockets side by side with Paradigms. No comparison, I preferred the Paradigms hands down. The Rockets have a narrow soundstage, way too much bass boom, not so great imaging.

This thread is whack (lots of bashing for no apparent reason), but I would like to address this response... exactly which rockets,, and which paradigms did you compare? Without models, your response is not very helpful to the members.

I've listened to Paradigm Monitor 7s and 9s, even Studio 40s (all three lines in a dealer shop). Tried the Polk LSi9s too. Ended buying a Rocket package based on the 550 MK II to demo (with Bigfoot center and RSS300 surrounds). Liked it so much I kept it.

I will say that I preferred the Bigfoot over the Para CC-470, and that CC-470 costs a bundle. Sometimes, if it costs more, you may not always like it.

Not to say the other brands are crap, because they are not. I just preferred the Rockets. I never heard the 750 Sigs.

[T-Bone]

http://forum.av123.com/showthread.php?threadid=5859

Read it here on how "laid back" the 750 really is. Please note, laid back is euphomism for rolled off high end, exaggerated low end. As to the level of detail the 750 model brings out, I would take that with a grain of salt. The descriptive terms smooth and detailed almost always contradict each other.

The original 750 was hyped to be the best speaker ever made, surpassing the Dunlavy's, Dynaudio's, B&W's, etc. Then the 750 signature came out, and these were hyped to be the best speakers ever made. Then the Onix reference line came out, and those were hyped to be the best speakers ever made. Maybe it's me, but I am skeptical of any company that claims to come out with 3 successive "best speakers in the world" within a span of 2 years. After all, Intel only comes out with a better computer chip once every year or so. :rolleyes:

The term "laid back" refers to the absence of upper treble energy (like the link to the av123 forum you referred us to stated). Actually, many folks are accustomed to lots of bass and lots of highs (if they have an EQ, the bass is raised, as well as the upper freqs, and the mids might be even lowered a bit).

So naturally, if a speaker appears to lack highs, it must be "laid back" because it is not what we may be accustomed to. The only real test for a speaker, with respect to labeling, is to have a slew of measurements. Test equipment, when properly calibrated, does not lie. It reveals the speaker characteristics.

[zumbo]

Anybody own the Onix Rocket loudspeakers? The 750 looks good and a new 850 is coming out. Read a review where they outdid price-comparable Paradigms side-by-side, especially the tweeters. Was considering the B&W 703's and an HTM7 or even the HTM1 ($2k) with already owned DS6's. But for way less dough, the 850's and their center run $2600 total and the 2 pair of surrounds are only $600 each (to do 7.1 want 2 pair). I could save $1000 by getting 7 speakers from them versus 3 speakers from B&W. Don't want to be dissapointed though, so looking for any experience here.

http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=speakers&brand=3

This is the question: B&W 703's, or Rocket 850's?
This is the answer: B&W 703's.
Just answer Pete's question.

[T-Bone]

This is the question: B&W 703's, or Rocket 850's?
This is the answer: B&W 703's.
Just answer Pete's question.

You are right... it is easy to get off topic :)


Pete:

If you can afford it, I suggest you buy the 703s locally (with the understanding with the dealer that you can return them after a few days if not satisfied), and have a pair of Rocket 750s OR 850s delivered so you can demo the Rockets and 703s side by side.

While we all have opinions, no one but you can really answer the question (laid back vs forward vs accurate vs etc, etc). Plus, every room is different, and speakers can sound drastically different from room to room.

If you cannot afford to have both in-house at the same time, then you'll have to base your decision on owner feedback. You should also visit av123 forum, and avsforum, for additional feedback.

[cnewlander]

I heard those Rockets side by side with Paradigms. No comparison, I preferred the Paradigms hands down. The Rockets have a narrow soundstage, way too much bass boom, not so great imaging.

I own a pair of Rocket 750's, 300's, 1000's and bigfoot along with av123's Emotiva DMC-1 A/V processor and the MPS-1 mutli-channel monoblock-design amplifier. The only way someone is going to get this equipment from me is by prying it from my dead hands.

I have had many people listen to my 750's (and 1000's). When bigfoot is turned off they ask to me turn off bigfoot (because the imaging is so DAMM good they believe bigfoot is on when in fact it is off). "Not so great" imaging? Seriously now I'm concerned for your ears because if you are not hearing the incredible imaging of the 750s' (which most everyone who auditions them comments about) you may be suffering from hearing loss. Please get your hearing checked for your own peace of mind. And please stop your av123 bashing.

[craigsub]

Thanks to "furrycute", I found another forum. Furrycute, We are going to be putting together a blind test between Rocket RS-850's or 1000's, B&W 703's, Paradigm Studio 100 V. 3's, and Possibly Klipsch RF-7's.

The "Klipsch Fan" who prompted this GTG has now disappeared, so the Klipsch may be out.

Perhaps you, as an audio guru, would like to attend ?

All listening will be done in two channel, using a McIntosh MA-6900 200 WPC Integrated amp.

YOU are just the type of guy we need at an event like this.

[furrycute]

If you cannot afford to have both in-house at the same time, then you'll have to base your decision on owner feedback. You should also visit av123 forum, and avsforum, for additional feedback.


Many people have listened to these glowing "owner feedback" on those forums and went ahead and purchased these Rockets. They have been mightily disappointed.

I cannot say what happens on the av123 forum. But on the avsforum, at least about a year and a half ago, any negative comments about these Rockets are instantly shot down by a cabal of "fanatical Rocket owners."

Whenever someone posted that:
1) those Rockets failed to live up to their expectations,
2) do not sound good,
3) too laid back,

The inevitable response from this cabal would be:
1) the rest of your equipment are not high end enough to bring out the "true" potential of the rockets,
2) let the speakers break in, for at least 31 days (the return period ends after 30 days),
3) your listening room needs acoustic treatment,
4) you just don't have those golden ears,
5) you are simply just crazy not to love those Rockets :eek:


There, that's my summary of those glowing "owner feedback" on avsforum from about a year and half ago. Things have cleaned up a lot since that forum's administrator stepped in and gave stern warnings to that "owners'" cabal.

[furrycute]

Perhaps you, as an audio guru, would like to attend ?



Sure thing, as long as you are willing to come to Durham, NC to pick up my 150lb plus floorstanders and drive me and my towers to the meet and bring me back.

And just so you know I am not making any excuses for not wanting to attend this:
1) I don't like to drive long distance
2) I have a mid sized sedan, my towers would not fit into my car

[craigsub]

We will have a pair of 703's here ... so you won't need your speakers. I will also pay your airfare ... there are direct flights from Raleigh into Erie, Pa.

The purpose of this is for fun ... and to get the audio community to be a friendlier place.... :)

[furrycute]

I have already heard the Rocket 750 model against a pair of Paradigm floorstanders in a local meet. And the Paradigm beat out the Rockets hands down. I have also heard some B&W floorstanders against some Paradigm floorstanders, and I preferred the sound of the B&W's.

What I really want to do this time is to compare my speakers to the Rockets. Since this is not possible, I would decline the invitation.

[T-Bone]

Many people have listened to these glowing "owner feedback" on those forums and went ahead and purchased these Rockets. They have been mightily disappointed.

I cannot say what happens on the av123 forum. But on the avsforum, at least about a year and a half ago, any negative comments about these Rockets are instantly shot down by a cabal of "fanatical Rocket owners."

Whenever someone posted that:
1) those Rockets failed to live up to their expectations,
2) do not sound good,
3) too laid back,

The inevitable response from this cabal would be:
1) the rest of your equipment are not high end enough to bring out the "true" potential of the rockets,
2) let the speakers break in, for at least 31 days (the return period ends after 30 days),
3) your listening room needs acoustic treatment,
4) you just don't have those golden ears,
5) you are simply just crazy not to love those Rockets :eek:


There, that's my summary of those glowing "owner feedback" on avsforum from about a year and half ago. Things have cleaned up a lot since that forum's administrator stepped in and gave stern warnings to that "owners'" cabal.

If you quote me, please quote my whole posts.

Yes, if he cannot demo both at the same time, there is no other alternative but to use owner/reviewer feedback to guide his buying decision. But the flaw with using feedback can be seen in your posts: anti-speaker X, and pro-speaker Y. My posts are unbiased. As long as Pete does not fixate on the anti-speaker posts, and focuses on the unbiased posts, he'll be okay.

By the way, I get the impression you are basing a lot of your opinion of the 750 classics, and not the 750 Sigs (as I have stated, I've heard neither).

You mention lack of imaging w.r.t. the 750s... my 550 MK IIs image very well. My room is 17'-4" wide, and seating is 8'-10" wide across 4 seats. I re-arranged my speakers this morning, in fact, and while they sounded very good before, I did improve imaging. This is why it is important to hear speakers in one's room, when properly arranged. Some rave about the 550 MK IIs imaging capability, but man, many rave about the 750s imaging capability. All I can say, without hearing the 750s, is that they probably do image as well as the owners/reviewers say they do.

[zumbo]

Thanks to "furrycute", I found another forum. Furrycute, We are going to be putting together a blind test between Rocket RS-850's or 1000's, B&W 703's, Paradigm Studio 100 V. 3's, and Possibly Klipsch RF-7's.

The "Klipsch Fan" who prompted this GTG has now disappeared, so the Klipsch may be out.

Perhaps you, as an audio guru, would like to attend ?

All listening will be done in two channel, using a McIntosh MA-6900 200 WPC Integrated amp.

YOU are just the type of guy we need at an event like this.


Sounds like alot of fun. The Klipsch can't compete with Paradigm or B&W. You can put some MB Quart 830's or 1030's in your test. But, beware, you might have some very unhappy people.

[craigsub]

I have already heard the Rocket 750 model against a pair of Paradigm floorstanders in a local meet. And the Paradigm beat out the Rockets hands down. I have also heard some B&W floorstanders against some Paradigm floorstanders, and I preferred the sound of the B&W's.

What I really want to do this time is to compare my speakers to the Rockets. Since this is not possible, I would decline the invitation.

I thought a blind test would be more than you could take. Anyone, whether he owns Rockets, B&W's, Paradigms ... etc.... can look right at the speakers and declare... "Yep, Mine are the best"...

But to do so in a blind test takes confidence.

[furrycute]

Fine, tell me the date, I'll look up the roundtrip airfare on travelocity. Send me a paypal payment to reimburse me, and we'll talk.

[furrycute]

And another thing, how was this meet arranged? Craigsub, you are an active member on the avsforum as well as the av123 forum. But I don't see any threads on those 2 forums about a meet.

[craigsub]

In fact, there is quite a bit of interest... WE just have not discussed it for a couple of weeks.

I just bumped the thread on AVS. It is on page one of the speakers section.

And yes, I own Rockets, but I do NOT care who "wins" this blind test. I just get tired of all the pi$$ing contests about speakers ... when NOONE who starts said contests will EVER do a blind test.

[zumbo]

In fact, there is quite a bit of interest... WE just have not discussed it for a couple of weeks.

I just bumped the thread on AVS. It is on page one of the speakers section.

And yes, I own Rockets, but I do NOT care who "wins" this blind test. I just get tired of all the pi$$ing contests about speakers ... when NOONE who starts said contests will EVER do a blind test.

I would be honered to participate in this. If it is not too far to drive, I will bring a pair of MB Quart 830's for the test. It would be fun. :D
And, I will pay my own way!

[VS540]

A quick observation:

Most every post, 9 out of 11 (VS540) has made at this forum is based on the defense of rocket loudspeakers...

Most every post, 3 out of 4 (TinHere) has made at this forum is also based on the promotion or defense of rocket loudspeakers...

hmmmmmmmmmm.....

must be coincidence...

c'mon fellas....

Ross.


LOL that's funny I got a good chuckle out of that. :p

You should work in politics because you are pretty good at spinning things. :rolleyes:

THIS is the ONLY time on this forum I have "DEFENDED" Rockets. But I guess to you just mentioning them is "defending" them. Get a clue....

I went back and looked at all my post's I think I only even mention Rockets umm....twice maybe three times....hmmm......

[craigsub]

I would be honered to participate in this. If it is not too far to drive, I will bring a pair of MB Quart 830's for the test. It would be fun. :D
And, I will pay my own way!

And to save me some time... What does a pair of the MB quarts retail for ?

Also... Where do you live ? I am in Erie, Pa...

[zumbo]

And to save me some time... What does a pair of the MB quarts retail for ?

Also... Where do you live ? I am in Erie, Pa...

I think around $1430.00 or so. I paid $999.00 for mine. I have four.
I am in MS. That would be quiet a drive. Might have to meet half way! LOL

[Ross]

Personally, it doesn't matter to me that some of you fellas that have only participated on this forum for the sole purpose of defense and/or promotion of av123.

It also doesn't bother me that you guys have something to gain or loose from anything negative being posted about av123.

For myself and others, I would like to think that we are just a community of hifi geeks that like to meet and chat about the various options out there, in order to better our own and each others hifi experience. However, when you taint this brotherhood with clever marketing tactics and biased motives, the validity of the brotherhood is quickly diminished.

I have seen where av123 has been called to task for their questionable marketing practices across some of the various HT forums on the web. I witnessed this occurence over at avsforum and S&V a while back.

I just think its important (for readers) to know just who is feeding them their information in cases such as this.

best,
Ross.

[Fb111794]

In fact, there is quite a bit of interest... WE just have not discussed it for a couple of weeks.

I just bumped the thread on AVS. It is on page one of the speakers section.

And yes, I own Rockets, but I do NOT care who "wins" this blind test. I just get tired of all the pi$$ing contests about speakers ... when NOONE who starts said contests will EVER do a blind test.


You know Craig..... it's funny how folks can BASH a company, their business model, their owner, and their thousands of loyal customers.... behind the veil of the Internet and their computer screen. Yet, when confronted to actually put their money where their mouth is and do a totally unbiased BLIND test with THEIR brand of speaker included against the one (or more) they like to trash.... cold feet abound.

I would suggest that you challenge furrycute to the same test that so petrified Jimroberts100. That he must report his findings after the blind testing is done (but BEFORE the speakers are revealed), and YOU post his exact findings on this forum, while he watches you post them..... and THEN speaker brand is revealed.

Kind of a cool way to "test" ones opinion of a particular brand.... removing any pre-conceived bias.... ponying up to the bar and paying the tab like a man. It should be quite fun don't you think? :)

As for me.... yeah.... I'll be there as well. Not only as the Chef, grilling PRIME BLACK ANGUS STRIP STEAKS and serving up sea salt encrusted baked potatoes and wine simmered mushrooms.... but a participant in the blind test as well with MY brand of speakers.... AUDES Blues.

I have no worries what so ever. While I simply love my Blues.... I've also auditioned Rocket 750 Signatures, 550 MK II's (simply LOVED these bad boys), 1000's and all of the Reference line of ONIX speakers. The 850's which I think are going to be represented in the blind shoot out, should fit in quite nicely and represent ONIX quite well I should think.

In the end.... it's all about sound. It should be a BLAST and frankly, or hopefully to some..... educational as well.

John W.
Indy

[3beanlimit]

Actually I am thinking about buying a new car soon. :D

You still have yet to list the equipment or even the speakers your using.....

A guess.......you over spent on them and are now looking for a scapegoat.

There are lots of car forums when you go looking. I would suggest you might take a gander so you don't get taken again. :p

[zumbo]

Actually I am thinking about buying a new car soon. :D

You still have yet to list the equipment or even the speakers your using.....

A guess.......you over spent on them and are now looking for a scapegoat.

There are lots of car forums when you go looking. I would suggest you might take a gander so you don't get taken again. :p

WTF? :confused:
What is this? All of a sudden it seems as though we have alot of Rocket owners who are stuck with them and are joining in this forum to post imature crap such as this. What a joke. Some of you folks talk as if you have stock in the company. I say, sell sell sell! :D

[Fb111794]

Anybody own the Onix Rocket loudspeakers? The 750 looks good and a new 850 is coming out. Read a review where they outdid price-comparable Paradigms side-by-side, especially the tweeters. Was considering the B&W 703's and an HTM7 or even the HTM1 ($2k) with already owned DS6's. But for way less dough, the 850's and their center run $2600 total and the 2 pair of surrounds are only $600 each (to do 7.1 want 2 pair). I could save $1000 by getting 7 speakers from them versus 3 speakers from B&W. Don't want to be dissapointed though, so looking for any experience here.

http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=speakers&brand=3

Pete:

To get back to your original question..... I auditioned MANY speakers before deciding on my Audes Blues. The B&W's you mentioned did not float my boat at all. Maybe it was the room I was in, but I really felt the bass was a bit lacking. Nice and tight yes.... but lacking in fullness all the same. Then again bass, is the most susceptble to room interaction.... so it may have been a placement issue. The mid's were clean and acurate... myabe a bit TOO anticeptic for my taste. Yes.... I am an old Boston Acoustic A-400 owner (and lover) where the mids were very lush and warm..... quite the oposite from today's speakers in general. The highs.... those were the bright spot on those B&W's. VERY detailed, clean and accurate without being harsh or bright in any way. With the bass lacking and the mids being cold and almost TOO neutral (to my ears).... the treble, just overwhelmed this speaker when I listened. So.... like I said.... not my cup of tea.

As for the ONIX Rocket 850's. I've NOT heard them yet. They are now shipping so I would go to www.audioenvy.com and register for an audition. Hopefully someone near you has them or will have them soon. That way you can at least see and hear them with your own ears rather than relying on anyone else's opinion.

As for ONIX in general.... too many folks in the B&M stores are dying on the vine. They have relied on snobbery and eliteism for far too long and it's starting to catch up with them. Internet direct manufacturers are starting to put a BIG hurt on their business. Not necessarily with superior products, but customer service that puts most of them to SHAME. How many B&M store OWNERS do you have their personal cell phone number and are told to call day or night if you aren't COMPLETELY satisfied?

AV123 is a fine company. They don't employ shills or secret marketing strategies, their employees, all use their real screen names when posting on forums, and their owner has been in the audio business designing speakers for the likes of Genises and others for most of his life. He is a fine gentleman and truly cares about each and every one of his customers. You will have no worries dealing with them.

In the end.... listen to as many different brands as you can. It's all about sound, so enjoy the journey and good luck in your search!

John W.
Indy

[zumbo]

Genises went bankrupt. Didn't they?
They did have some nice sounding car audio stuff. I think there was some reliability issues. If this is the same company you mention. :confused:

[furrycute]

WTF? :confused:
What is this? All of a sudden it seems as though we have alot of Rocket owners who are stuck with them and are joining in this forum to post imature crap such as this. What a joke. Some of you folks talk as if you have stock in the company. I say, sell sell sell! :D


Suddenly 10 newly registered members popping up to promote the Rockets. :eek:

This is exactly what happened over at the avsforum. All the voices of criticism of the Rocket line of speakers are drowned out in a sea of posts by this Rocket cabal.

[furrycute]

Personally, it doesn't matter to me that some of you fellas that have only participated on this forum for the sole purpose of defense and/or promotion of av123.

It also doesn't bother me that you guys have something to gain or loose from anything negative being posted about av123.

For myself and others, I would like to think that we are just a community of hifi geeks that like to meet and chat about the various options out there, in order to better our own and each others hifi experience. However, when you taint this brotherhood with clever marketing tactics and biased motives, the validity of the brotherhood is quickly diminished.

I have seen where av123 has been called to task for their questionable marketing practices across some of the various HT forums on the web. I witnessed this occurence over at avsforum and S&V a while back.

I just think its important (for readers) to know just who is feeding them their information in cases such as this.

best,
Ross.



Couldn't have said it better myself! Bravo! :D

[craigsub]

You did not see Rocket owners start a thread ripping into other company's products, marketing methods ... nothing.

And, for example, John W. is not even a Rocket owner. He IS, however, a nice guy and a gentleman.

The audio community could USE a few more gentlemen.

[Fb111794]

WTF? :confused:
What is this? All of a sudden it seems as though we have alot of Rocket owners who are stuck with them and are joining in this forum to post imature crap such as this. What a joke. Some of you folks talk as if you have stock in the company. I say, sell sell sell! :D

Oh come on.... I may be new here.... but talk about imature.

Why not take the high road? If someone likes a particular brand of speakers and says so.... why is that somehow wrong? Just agree to disagree, state your opinion and go on.

Resorting to stuff like this is what causes bad blood and ill feelings and frankly isn't needed or wanted I'm sure.

Besides.... they're SPEAKERS.... MDF boxes with wood veneer, drivers, crossovers, binding posts and some wire. That's it. There is a lot more important things in life to get your feathers all ruffled about.... don't you think?

[zumbo]

This was out of context! WTF :confused: was about this You still have yet to list the equipment or even the speakers your using.....

A guess.......you over spent on them and are now looking for a scapegoat.

There are lots of car forums when you go looking. I would suggest you might take a gander so you don't get taken again. :p
. Not speakers!

[zumbo]

You did not see Rocket owners start a thread ripping into other company's products, marketing methods ... nothing.

And, for example, John W. is not even a Rocket owner. He IS, however, a nice guy and a gentleman.

The audio community could USE a few more gentlemen.

This thread was not started to rip on anything. It was a question. B&W or Rocket. Then, when people answered, Rocket owners joined up to defend their product.

[Fb111794]

Genises went bankrupt. Didn't they?
They did have some nice sounding car audio stuff. I think there was some reliability issues. If this is the same company you mention. :confused:


I think Arnie Nudell would take issue with that statement. No.... they don't make car audio stuff as far as I know.

As for bankrupt.... again, I can't speak to that but a LOT of companies use the bankruptcy courts to re-organize at various times in their life. Most come out of it .... some do not.

For example.... what kind of insulation or shingles do you have in/on your house? Owens Corning maybe? (you know.... the "Think Pink" and "Pink Panther" guys).... for your information.... they are in Bankruptcy right now. So Bankruptcy, doesn't mean diddly squat unless a company went belly up and left folks hanging in the lurch.... which Genisis most certainly did not.

John W.
Indy

[Fb111794]

This was out of context! That was about cars. Not speakers!


To which ROCKET car were you refering to then? One I'm not aware of for sure.... and stock? If somebodies got some to sell, sell, sell.... I'm in the mood to buy, buy, buy!

:D

[furrycute]

You did not see Rocket owners start a thread ripping into other company's products, marketing methods ... nothing.



The Rocket line of speakers is probably one of the MOST heavily promoted internet speakers since the advent of the internet brand speakers.

Let's see, a bit of history here. The company av123 first started carrying the Swans brand of speakers. Those were touted to be the best speakers ever made. Then they got into legal problems with B&W because the Swans line copied B&W's top mounted tweeter design. Then av123 dissociated itself from the Swans line, and started carrying the Rockets. All of a sudden there were no more praises for the previous "BEST speaker of the millenium," and the Rockets were touted as the BEST speakers ever made.

During its initial release, the Rockets were touted to be better than the Klipsches. Then the stakes got progressively higher, the Rockets were hyped to be better than many long established and highly respected brands, such as the Dunlavy's, B&W's, KEF's, Sonus Fabers, Vienna Acoustics, Energies, etc.


No other company has promoted its speakers in this underhanded fashion and shameless quantity.

This is why there was such a huge backlash against the Rockets and the company av123 across many audio forums about a year and a half ago. Things quieted down a bit since then. But there seems to be a resurrgence of this Rocket hype as of late.

[craigsub]

Suddenly 10 newly registered members popping up to promote the Rockets. :eek:

This is exactly what happened over at the avsforum. All the voices of criticism of the Rocket line of speakers are drowned out in a sea of posts by this Rocket cabal.

Furrycute .. Perhaps YOU could provide evidence regarding all your original accusations. While you are working on THAT, explain how offering a blind test is defending, promoting, or doing anything else "pro-Rocket" ????

[zumbo]

I think Arnie Nudell would take issue with that statement. No.... they don't make car audio stuff as far as I know.

As for bankrupt.... again, I can't speak to that but a LOT of companies use the bankruptcy courts to re-organize at various times in their life. Most come out of it .... some do not.

For example.... what kind of insulation or shingles do you have in/on your house? Owens Corning maybe? (you know.... the "Think Pink" and "Pink Panther" guys).... for your information.... they are in Bankruptcy right now. So Bankruptcy, doesn't mean diddly squat unless a company went belly up and left folks hanging in the lurch.... which Genisis most certainly did not.

John W.
Indy

Yes, but the Genisis I am speaking of made "lifetime warranty tweeters". I think this was the reason they went bankrupt.

[zumbo]

To which ROCKET car were you refering to then? One I'm not aware of for sure.... and stock? If somebodies got some to sell, sell, sell.... I'm in the mood to buy, buy, buy!

:D

You are lost. You need to go back and read the entire thread. Not just pieces.

[furrycute]

Furrycute .. Perhaps YOU could provide evidence regarding all your original accusations. While you are working on THAT, explain how offering a blind test is defending, promoting, or doing anything else "pro-Rocket" ????


Craigsub, I was a long time active member on the avsforum during that Rocket craze. That's why I know so much about the history of the Rocket line and the history of the company av123.

After that whole Rocket debacle about a year and half ago, I became so disgusted with this Rocket cabal, I left the avsforum and have not posted since. Since you have been an active member on the avsforum, you know as well as I do the history behind the Swans and the Rockets.

And craigsub, I am still waiting for that meet date, so I can send you a quote for the roundtrip airfare.

[craigsub]

And don't even get me started on the shady internet discussion forum advertising this company engages in. This company is known to use its employees to register at various online audio discussion forums, and from there pose as independent consumers, hyping up the Rocket line of speakers.

Go to www.avsforum.com, and do a search on the keyword "rockets" in the speakers' discussion forum. Read those posts from about a year and a half ago. There was quite a backlash against all the shady shill advertising. The forum administrator checked the IP addresses of those members hyping the Rockets, and guess what, most of those IP addresses belong to one company (you can guess which company it is).


If there is one thing I loathe the most in business, it is dishonesty in advertising. I have no problems with companies doing online advertising, as long as those companies clearly identify themselves as the advertisers. However I have BIG problems with companies engaging in shill advertising, that is using its employees to pose as independent consumers giving favorable reviews to that company's products.

The sound quality of the Rocket line of speakers is average at best (many would say it is below par). Yet that company actively engages in shill advertising, hyping up the sound quality, planting the idea in novice hometheater enthusiasts that they are saving A LOT of money if they purchase internet direct speakers such as the Rockets. This is absolute nonsense. Walk into any respected audio store, and you will find established brand name speakers that offer superior audio quality, compared to the Rockets, at far more attractive prices.

You make some statements here as if you were stating facts. Factual information is provable. Do you have, for example, evidence that AV123 employees posted under "fake names"? Can you say who exactly, as a forum administrator, did this research into the IP addresses ?

Or are you stating what YOU thought happened during this time period.

By the way, I have walked into many high end stores, and have auditioned a LOT of fine speakers. I made a choice based on experience.

If you are serious about these accusations, it would only be fair of you to provide some proof... including a link, if you have it.

As for a date ... We are looking at late April as of now...

[furrycute]

A link. During that whole Rocket debacle, threads about Rockets often ran into the hundreds of pages. Even if I do a search right I would have to comb through these thousands of pages from about a year and half ago. But if you were there at that time, you should know as well as I what kind of backlash there was against the Rockets on the avsforum.

[furrycute]

As for a date ... We are looking at late April as of now...


Good, I'll be there. Send me an e-mail when you have a definite date, and I'll send you a quote of the roundtrip airfare.

[craigsub]

A link. During that whole Rocket debacle, threads about Rockets often ran into the hundreds of pages. Even if I do a search right I would have to comb through these thousands of pages from about a year and half ago. But if you were there at that time, you should know as well as I what kind of backlash there was against the Rockets on the avsforum.

You made a lot of statments that fall outside "backlash" ... If memory serves, the BIG thread was titled "Rockets ... the best *value* speaker ever?" ... with a question mark ...

I did read through a lot of the thread, and there was both too much Rocket Hype and too much ... Anti Hype, for lack of a better word.

I will let you know, for sure, when we set a date ...

[zumbo]

Poor ole Pete made one reply to this thread he started. :D I wonder where he is now? :confused:

[T-Bone]

Poor ole Pete made one reply to this thread he started. :D I wonder where he is now? :confused:

He's probably so disgusted, he's looking at Bose :)

Not to bash Bose, they sound good, just overpriced!

[zumbo]

He's probably so disgusted, he's looking at Bose :)

Not to bash Bose, they sound good, just overpriced!

Sound good to who? Rocket owners? :rolleyes: :D :eek:

[furrycute]

Sound good to who? Rocket owners? :rolleyes: :D :eek:

Come on zumbo, you have to admit that those Bose cubes do sound better than your average boombox. :D

[TinHere]

Personally, it doesn't matter to me that some of you fellas that have only participated on this forum for the sole purpose of defense and/or promotion of av123.

It also doesn't bother me that you guys have something to gain or loose from anything negative being posted about av123.

For myself and others, I would like to think that we are just a community of hifi geeks that like to meet and chat about the various options out there, in order to better our own and each others hifi experience. However, when you taint this brotherhood with clever marketing tactics and biased motives, the validity of the brotherhood is quickly diminished.

I have seen where av123 has been called to task for their questionable marketing practices across some of the various HT forums on the web. I witnessed this occurence over at avsforum and S&V a while back.

I just think its important (for readers) to know just who is feeding them their information in cases such as this.

best,
Ross.

Who is feeding them [readers] their information? False info is ok if it is told by a member who has posted before? That is what diminishes a brotherhood, not the truth. Truth and logic are very clever tactics because they are factual, make sense, and result in a valid conclusion.

I have no affiliation with AV123 and nothing to gain or lose. The "problems" you speak of on other forums mirror the "problem" here. Someone posted false information and/or denegrated AV123, it was responded to, cries of conspiracy were raised, people who made the initial false statements with a cadre of forum allies refused to even entertain the idea that maybe the statements were false, and the rest of the forum saw the mess. I'm sure Mark and company would have preferred if I had let the statements stand and die on their own lack of merit because he gets the brunt just through association. The next time something like this happens this discussion will be cited as "marketing tactics" when the reality is that I joined as an individual and do not represent the company. Like I said earlier, when company members post they identify themselves so there is no question about who is a company member and who isn't.

Brotherhood is a wonderful thing until it turns a blind eye to reality. Isn't it odd that only one member [a Rocket owner] of the brotherhood here stepped up and even questioned the validity of the false statements or the appropriateness of the denegrating remarks? Perhaps not so odd when "group think" is factored in. Not a knock on this forum, just how things are. The best you came up with was a conspiracy theory, and a warning to readers that unafilliated individuals [not mentioned by you] who chose to defend AV123 are part and parcel of a marketing scheme. That's nothing but false inuendo. I spoke out so the truth about the company that had been maligned would be seen, and not to tell anyone what speakers they should like or who they should buy from. The differences in many speakers are a question of nuance not miles. Most blanket statements that a speaker is bad is simply a harsh opinion based on one's own preferences and lack of understanding of other people's right to their own preferences.

[Ross]

FC,

"Suddenly 10 newly registered members popping up to promote the Rockets.

This is exactly what happened over at the avsforum. All the voices of criticism of the Rocket line of speakers are drowned out in a sea of posts by this Rocket cabal."

Beleive me, I know of what you speak. However, it is not unexpected. This sort of "damage control" is a very common practice each time Team Rocket is challenged.

best,
Ross.

[3beanlimit]

WTF? :confused:
What is this? All of a sudden it seems as though we have alot of Rocket owners who are stuck with them and are joining in this forum to post imature crap such as this. What a joke. Some of you folks talk as if you have stock in the company. I say, sell sell sell! :D

Nope....don't own them, and have never listened to them but have read about them.

There isn't anyway that what's posted above by furry guy is even close to the truth. That's my personal feelings.

I look for the DIY sections of audio fourms and ran into this one. Anytime you find someone bashing another product, you can almost bet they have an agenda....

Anyway, I first posted in the diy section..read through the others then found this thread. Sorry to have given the intention I dropped in to troll on what seems to me to be someone else trolling...My apologies to all..

[zumbo]

Nope....don't own them, and have never listened to them but have read about them.

There isn't anyway that what's posted above by furry guy is even close to the truth. That's my personal feelings.

I look for the DIY sections of audio fourms and ran into this one. Anytime you find someone bashing another product, you can almost bet they have an agenda....

Anyway, I first posted in the diy section..read through the others then found this thread. Sorry to have given the intention I dropped in to troll on what seems to me to be someone else trolling...My apologies to all..

No need for an apology brother. BTW, There was an agenda. B&W 703's or Rocket 750's?
I went for the B&W 703's. As simple as that!

BTW, did you know the Chrysler K car was named "car-of-the-year" by Car and Driver back in the day. Be careful what you read.

[T-Bone]

FC,

"Suddenly 10 newly registered members popping up to promote the Rockets.

This is exactly what happened over at the avsforum. All the voices of criticism of the Rocket line of speakers are drowned out in a sea of posts by this Rocket cabal."

Beleive me, I know of what you speak. However, it is not unexpected. This sort of "damage control" is a very common practice each time Team Rocket is challenged.

best,
Ross.

I did register today, and I am registered at 4 other forums, however I post mostly at avsforum. I read Audioholics occasionaly, but had to register because I thought furrycute was off base.

But you have to admit that anyone to bashes speaker X and praises speaker Y as so much better, knowing that everone's ears are *different* and everyone's tastes are different, puts a HUGE target on the basher's back. So it is not damage control, its more like "shooting fish in a barrel" because furrucute could not back his claims.

BTW, many praise the Ascend 340M. It is supposed to be a very nice speaker. In one of the GTGs, the 340M was sooooo close to the Rocket 550 MK II, but those listeners gave the ever so *slight* edge to the 550 MK II, and that edge could have been related to room layout, or some other reason. The 340M, paired with a sub, costs the same as the 550 MK II. The 340M is touted as being a very nice speaker at an affordable price.

[craigsub]

No need for an apology brother. BTW, There was an agenda. B&W 703's or Rocket 750's?
I went for the B&W 703's. As simple as that!

BTW, did you know the Chrysler K car was named "car-of-the-year" by Car and Driver back in the day. Be careful what you read.

Chrysler's K-Car won "COTY" because, at the time, COTY was for the NEW product that Motor Trend thought was the most signfigant product introduced to the market that model year.

It does NOT mean it is the finest vehicle on the market.

And I don't see any Rocket owners telling people NOT to consider B&W, nor are they making wild accusations about B&W as a company.

Again... Where is there ANY evidence of the statements made by "FC" ?

Or are you detractors going to hide behind rhetoric like "Team Rocket" ?

[TinHere]

Or are you detractors going to hide behind rhetoric like "Team Rocket" ?

That's all they have. The statements are false.

[VS540]

I find it amusing that they rip on and bad mouth people for sticking up for a quality speaker and then decide to state lies and false rumors along with it. Though if someone ripped on and lied about the speakers they owned what would they do? Just ignore it and not post anything? Pfft...yeah right...hypocrites. :rolleyes:

Oh and the origianl question was 703's or 750's or 850's. I still say listen for yourself...

[T-Bone]

I never post here because avsforum seems more active for my needs. Sure glad furrybutt left avsforum... he's probably the type to give a recommendation according to what he owns... pure bias. and no rationale. The "wins hands down" comment was so profound and educational that I am still trying to fully grasp it in its entirety.

Sort of sorry I posted to begin with.

[zumbo]

Chrysler's K-Car won "COTY" because, at the time, COTY was for the NEW product that Motor Trend thought was the most signfigant product introduced to the market that model year.

It does NOT mean it is the finest vehicle on the market.

And I don't see any Rocket owners telling people NOT to consider B&W, nor are they making wild accusations about B&W as a company.

Again... Where is there ANY evidence of the statements made by "FC" ?

Or are you detractors going to hide behind rhetoric like "Team Rocket" ?

I am not FC, although I do find his post somewhat informative. I did not tell Pete to not consider Rocket. I said they can't compare to B&W 703's. As simple as that! ;) And yes, this is just my opinion. I believe that is what Pete was looking for. Simple answers!

So, I will give mine again. B&W 703's. Hands down. :eek:

[furrycute]

he's probably the type to give a recommendation according to what he owns... pure bias. and no rationale.


I own Infinity Kappa floorstanders. I haven't shoved these Infinity's down anyone's throat.

On the other hand, these Rocket "owners..." :rolleyes:

[craigsub]

Zumbo ... If your opinion is that Rockets are bested by B&W's, fine.

You are wrong, but that is just my opinion... We are entitled to those.

FC made some accusations with no evidence. And he was not saying this was his opinion, he stated these accusations as FACT, with NO EVIDENCE.

And you APPROVE of this ?

[craigsub]

I own Infinity Kappa floorstanders. I haven't shoved these Infinity's down anyone's throat.

On the other hand, these Rocket "owners..." :rolleyes:

One more time, Do you have ANY evidence regarding your accusations ?

[furrycute]

One more time, Do you have ANY evidence regarding your accusations ?


The evidence is burried in those thousands of pages of Rocket related threads on the avsforum from about a year and half ago. You want the truth, you go and read those threads yourself.

And while you are at it, ask David Bott, the owner and operator of the avsforum of what he thought was going on during that whole Rocket debacle. And ask him why he banned so many Rocket "owners" from posting on the avsforum, and why he has been actively closing down many Rocket hype threads ever since.


Come to think of it, craigsub, I do remember recently reading one your threads on the Rockets, and there was a resurrgence of the Rocket hype in your thread. David Bott did post in that thread summarizing what really happened during that Rocket debacle. In subtle language, he implied that originally he helped Mark L. Schifter start the promotion of his speakers on his forum. Then things got out of control, and David Bott was really upset that the Rocket line of speakers was getting all the promotion on the avsforum without av123 reimbursing him for all the free promotion. Looks like there were some behind the scenes negotiations, but that apparently went nowhere. Coupled with all the backlash against the Rockets, David Bott finally banned from Rocket "owners" and things finally quieted down over at the avsforum.

Read between the lines and decide for yourself what was really going on.

[LQQK]

grilling PRIME BLACK ANGUS STRIP STEAKS and serving up sea salt encrusted baked potatoes and wine simmered mushrooms....

Screw the speakers....I want the food, Do you deliver? :D...

By the way I own 6-750's and Bigfoot and this is my first post, although I've been a member since 2002.

LQQK

[TinHere]

I am not FC, although I do find his post somewhat informative. I did not tell Pete to not consider Rocket. I said they can't compare to B&W 703's. As simple as that! ;) And yes, this is just my opinion. I believe that is what Pete was looking for. Simple answers!

So, I will give mine again. B&W 703's. Hands down. :eek:

Of course you are entitled your opinion and other's may differ.

Please, please, tell me what was informative or even worthwhile about the disinformation in question. I'm sure some of his words can be defended, but I'm talking about the words that contained all the vitriol.

[craigsub]

The evidence is burried in those thousands of pages of Rocket related threads on the avsforum from about a year and half ago. You want the truth, you go and read those threads yourself.

And while you are at it, ask David Bott, the owner and operator of the avsforum of what he thought was going on during that whole Rocket debacle. And ask him why he banned so many Rocket "owners" from posting on the avsforum, and why he has been actively closing down many Rocket hype threads ever since.

I read the threads ... have talked to David Bott... and now am certain you just CANNOT back up your accusations with any evidence.

[furrycute]

Craigsub, read it again.



Come to think of it, craigsub, I do remember recently reading one your threads on the Rockets, and there was a resurrgence of the Rocket hype in your thread. David Bott did post in that thread summarizing what really happened during that Rocket debacle. In subtle language, he implied that originally he helped Mark L. Schifter start the promotion of his speakers on his forum. Then things got out of control, and David Bott was really upset that the Rocket line of speakers was getting all the promotion on the avsforum without av123 reimbursing him for all the free promotion. Looks like there were some behind the scenes negotiations, but that apparently went nowhere. Coupled with all the backlash against the Rockets, David Bott finally banned from Rocket "owners" and things finally quieted down over at the avsforum.

Read between the lines and decide for yourself what was really going on.

[craigsub]

FC ... There was a lot of back and forth between Rocket buyers and anti Rocket people... and yes, it was over the top on both sides.

That is not the issue here.

What is the issue is YOUR list of accusations.

1. YOU said AV123 used employees ro register as independent consumers on the various forums to hype up the (Rocket) products.

We will start here. Can you prove this or can't you ? This is a yes or no question ...

[furrycute]

Here, found David Bott's reply to your meet thread on the avsforum.

Read between the lines and decide for yourself what David was saying. Obviously he was being subtle, but the accusations are right there between the lines.






As you can see by this thread...this is why we made a note to say...

So in thinking along these lines we ask...Please No More Threads such as....

"I just bought "blank" and they are the best"
"I have my "blank" on order"
"Another Happy "blank" customer"


More or less such posts are not a support post, but one that comes as to promote a product. Maybe the intent of the person was not to do this as such, but was more of wanting to give information, but based on past events, it can very much make for issues.

It has been said..."Why should we market on any site when we can let our buyers do it for us." Thus is the issue at hand when you see users making such posts. It is not just in this section mind you, but we fight this forum wide. In this area however, we have a number of Internet only sales companies that can make a great deal of money from this site even without supporting the site itself. Thus you may perceive more posts closed or removed from these types of companies but this is solely because of the ratio of posts made vs others of the promotion type. (Note...even if such companies were a sponsor, we still would not care for it to continue. We have even declined ad dollars based on a company feeling they had the right to promote in threads.)

All in all...We are looking for SUPPORT type threads. Helping people get the most out of what they own be it audio or video. Speakers are VERY subjective and what I like you may not. However, if a person is looking for speakers and see the same company over and over and over again being mentioned...what do you think they will buy based on "I love this line" type posts. People will ALWAYS promote what they own.

The people you see who promote this brand and defend it...guess what...They own them (At least most do). The people you see attacking the brand...guess what...They are tired of the hype (thats it). The people you see trying to help by asking about room setup and other gear used...guess what...They really are trying to be helpful.

That is the way we see it on this end dealing with the PM's, E-Mail, etc.

Seeing this is a topic on Rocket I will say that yes their is a history here. However I will also say is really, really has toned down quite a bit. Mark Shifter, the owner of AV123, is a great guy who cares to make fine products for the A/V world. He stands behind his products and care greatly about the customer. We have a long time friendship that has had it's ups and downs. However he also understands the issues that can be made by over zealous owners.

I kindly ask that the back and fourth stop and we get on to helping people achieve the best performance from the gear they own.

Ok...Just read this and need to respond..."Unfortunately the very same distribution method was heavily critized (still to this day) since it was perceived by some to have a strategy of using forums like this for marketing campaigns."

But this is the only way they were and have been marketed from that I have ever seen I am sorry to say. More or less people found out about Diva, Rockets, AV123 from forums like this. I helped Mark start the marketing of the line, way back when, when I ran his banners free of charge (Like I said, I like Mark). From that point it was all thread based posting that ended up getting out of hand. Again, not what this site is about. It is not jus there...but all forums of this type.


Thanks all and Happy Holidays!

__________________
David Bott
AVS Forum Admin
Get Aboad the 2005 Home Theater Cruise!

Last edited by David Bott on 12-14-04 at 07:59 PM

[zumbo]

Now that's the icing on the cake! :D

[furrycute]

And here's the link to the rest of that thread, David Bott's reply appears on page 3.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=481972&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

[craigsub]

Still waiting for your evidence. Perhaps you need to look up the word "evidence" in the dictionary ?

[zumbo]

Evidence

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That which makes evident or manifest; that which furnishes, or tends to furnish, proof; any mode of proof; the ground of belief or judgement; as, the evidence of our senses; evidence of the truth or falsehood of a statement.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One who bears witness.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That which is legally submitted to competent tribunal, as a means of ascertaining the truth of any alleged matter of fact under investigation before it; means of making proof; -- the latter, strictly speaking, not being synonymous with evidence, but rather the effect of it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To render evident or clear; to prove; to evince; as, to evidence a fact, or the guilt of an offender.

[craigsub]

NOW... Take the definitions, and prove the accusation. For example, How EXACTLY does Furrycute KNOW that AV123 employees were caught using fake names in order to pretend to be independent consumers in order to hype the product ? HE said their IP addresses were tracked. In that case, he should be able to PROVE that.

If I saw REAL proof of this, it would likely assure that I would never purchase from AV123 again... as that type of behavior WOULD be reprehensible.

[TinHere]

Craigsub, read it again.



Come to think of it, craigsub, I do remember recently reading one your threads on the Rockets, and there was a resurrgence of the Rocket hype in your thread. David Bott did post in that thread summarizing what really happened during that Rocket debacle. In subtle language, he implied that originally he helped Mark L. Schifter start the promotion of his speakers on his forum. Then things got out of control, and David Bott was really upset that the Rocket line of speakers was getting all the promotion on the avsforum without av123 reimbursing him for all the free promotion. Looks like there were some behind the scenes negotiations, but that apparently went nowhere. Coupled with all the backlash against the Rockets, David Bott finally banned from Rocket "owners" and things finally quieted down over at the avsforum.

Read between the lines and decide for yourself what was really going on.

In for a penny in for a pound.

What you call free promotion was really open discussion. The people discussing chose to discuss. Mark and members of his company joined the forum or were already members. Sean was a member before he worked for AV123. It would have not only been bad business but would have been rude not to answer questions that were being asked of them. They participated and offered their expertise on many threads that had nothing to do with AV123. During this time people were ordering speakers and reporting their opinions. The reports were mostly positive. More people bought the speakers and wanted to discuss them. The recommendations to try the Rocket's grew. Very scandalous. Not. The discussion moved to AV123's own forum where you can say you like your speakers and not get attacked. BTW that's true even if the speakers aren't made by AV123. Very few threads have been closed there.

What was scandalous was the behavior of the agenda ridden trolls. Nary a recommendation or mention of Rocket's or AV123 was permitted to stand without a trolling lie or defamatory remark. You don't have to read between the lines to see it. The beat goes on.

[Fb111794]

Craigsub, I was a long time active member on the avsforum during that Rocket craze. That's why I know so much about the history of the Rocket line and the history of the company av123.

After that whole Rocket debacle about a year and half ago, I became so disgusted with this Rocket cabal, I left the avsforum and have not posted since. Since you have been an active member on the avsforum, you know as well as I do the history behind the Swans and the Rockets.

And craigsub, I am still waiting for that meet date, so I can send you a quote for the roundtrip airfare.

furrycute:

You may have been a long time AVS member, but so am I. You are grossly mistating both of the threads that you refer to. For everyone else who doesn't know the TRUTH.... the title of those threads was NOT the that they were the best speaker ever. It was.... Swans Divas... The best speaker for the Money ever? That's what started it.... and it wasn't started by anyone at AV123. It was started by a happy customer that felt that he had the best speakers "for the money," ever.

The Rocket thread was started with EXACTLY the same title by once again.... a customer and in fact the very first post was..... "I COULDN'T RESIST." It went from there.

IMHO.... ALL of us want to get the very best deal possible when making a purchase.... I don't care what it is. It's just human nature. Speakers aren't any different.... so why do folks get so fired up about it? In short.... I have no idea.

The Rocket thread in question.... long since deleted from the archives.... became the longest thread on any audio board in history. It was actually quite interesting and informative untill the trolls started showing up and starting all kinds of flame wars. Their obvious intent was to attack, attack, attack.

Once AV123 started their own forum in December of 2000, that mega thread was finally closed. The trolls had a mission by then. Every single post or thread refering to Rockets in any way.... in they came and started slinging the mud. Some Rocket owners, I agree.... didn't react in an appropriate way. They were a bit over zealous in defense of their brand. Again.... as a rational and somewhat intelligent person, I can see through that and chalk it up to human nature.

Once again.... all of the back and forth was NOT perpetuated or encouraged in any way by AV123 or any of it's staff. In fact Mark Schifter MANY, MANY times came in and tried to calm things down. There was even an open letter/post my the master himself; David Bott in support of Mark Schifter and AV123 (I'm doing a search for it as well.... but it too may have been purged from the archives).

So.... if you are going to refer to something.... especially in a negative way.... please do us and yourself credit by being factual and correct in your representation of what you are saying. I can handle the fact that you maybe don't like Rockets.... that maybe you don't like the Internet direct business model.... that for some reason you don't like Mark Schifter.... All of those points are your opinion. That is fine. However, if your are going to slam them in any way.... at least be truthful in how you represent what they are about and what has ACTUALLY been said.

All of us would appreciate it I'm sure.

John W.
Indy

[VS540]

Furrycute and Zumbo, it's pretty sad to see people like you so hell bent on trolling and going out of their to try to piss people off and start lies like this. Zumbo especially it seems in reading other threads and post's you've been in you come in with the mind set of "it's my way or the highway".

I read the post by Bott the day he posted it, all I can make from it is that some owners of some Rockets came on and perhaps went over board on their posts. Causing a giant thread that lead to many flames and a whole lot of resentment towards AV123. But NO WHERE does it say or even begin to indicate that AV123 or it's employee's had anything to do with it. He allowed Mark to advertise via banner, but after the whole Rocket thread decided to stop virtually all talk of Rockets.

It's become pretty obvious you have NO proof of any kind what so ever to back up anything you've said. You are being nothing but malicious and show casing your 3 year old maturity level. Instead of spending money on some audio upgrades perhaps you should buy some class and maturity next...

Oh and Craig having furry cute over for a listen is a good idea but no matter how good the Rockets or Ref's sound to him he won't admit it. He'll never go back on his words because I can tell he's just that type of guy. :(

Oh and later this week I have to go to my local B&W dealer to pick some stuff up. I'll make it a point to listen some 703's or anything I can from the 700 series. I'm pretty sure the 750's won't match up in some areas, but I want a reference for when I get 850's.

[Ross]

FC and Z,

Once the consorted effort has been mounted and the hounds have been released, Team Rocket will always fall back into the gental arms of internet anonymity. True, both sides of this thread are hiding behind the veil of cyberspace, but they have much more to loose if such a scandall was definitively proven.

Your time and contributions to this forum were appreciated long before Team Rocket showed up, and will continue to be appreciated after all the dust settles.

I wouldn't waste much more energy in this matter. People's eyes have alredy been opened to the "business model" that Team R utilizes.

As long as people can look at such posts, and take them with a (tiny) grain of salt, I don't think too much of the brotherhood has been lost.

best,
Ross.

[Fb111794]

Oh and Craig having furry cute over for a listen is a good idea but no matter how good the Rockets or Ref's sound to him he won't admit it. He'll never go back on his words because I can tell he's just that type of guy. :(


VS540:

First off.... lighten up.... especially with the name calling (the 3 year old comment) that's just what gets you guys (Rocket owners) in trouble and branded as a rable.

As for the above quote.... FC won't be able to go back on his words.... because they will be posted ON THIS FORUM before speaker brands are revealed.

And.... I'm willing to bet that he's even a nice guy. Just very opinionated like the rest of us with regards to all things audio. I'm certain that once he hears for himself the strides ONIX has made with their products, maybe even meets Mark Schifter and sees first hand his passion for producing great products at affordable prices.... he JUST MIGHT come away with a new found respect for MLS and his company.

Name calling and negativism won't help your cause.

[craigsub]

Ross... It is the actions and words of people like you, FC and Z and who make the world of audio an ugly place. There IS no such thing as "Team Rocket". It is a pejorative term invented to discredit a certain group of people.

There IS no evidence that the people at AV123 "invented names" on the various forums in order to "pretend to be independent consumers while hyping the product (Rocket)"...

What you people are doing is engaging in a smear campaign.

Oh yeah ... the business model. Satisfied customers ... WOW. You guys really have a point there. ANY company which counts on satisfied customers to help it grow is DOOMED to failure.

This needs taught in business schools... "Do NOT have a happy owner base" ....

[VS540]

FC and Z,

Once the consorted effort has been mounted and the hounds have been released, Team Rocket will always fall back into the gental arms of internet anonymity. True, both sides of this thread are hiding behind the veil of cyberspace, but they have much more to loose if such a scandall was definitively proven.

Your time and contributions to this forum were appreciated long before Team Rocket showed up, and will continue to be appreciated after all the dust settles.

I wouldn't waste much more energy in this matter. People's eyes have alredy been opened to the "business model" that Team R utilizes.

As long as people can look at such posts, and take them with a (tiny) grain of salt, I don't think too much of the brotherhood has been lost.

best,
Ross.

Again Ross I'm telling ya politics has to be in your future. You can spin and smear like the best of them. Best of luck in your future elections. :)

[zumbo]

Furrycute and Zumbo, it's pretty sad to see people like you so hell bent on trolling and going out of their to try to piss people off and start lies like this. Zumbo especially it seems in reading other threads and post's you've been in you come in with the mind set of "it's my way or the highway".

Is it sad to see. I was not aware of the "my way or the highway" mindset! A question was asked, and I gave a reply. Then, some people got upset. I am not upset. And I do not own either speaker in question.

If I was asked if I prefer men or women, well I would have to say women. If I was asked which one smells better, I would say women. If I was asked which one looked better, I would say women. And I will stand behind my decision.

But, in no way did I say Rockets were not a good product! Nor did I lie. I gave a simple opinion!

[cnewlander]

Many people have listened to these glowing "owner feedback" on those forums and went ahead and purchased these Rockets. They have been mightily disappointed.

I cannot say what happens on the av123 forum. But on the avsforum, at least about a year and a half ago, any negative comments about these Rockets are instantly shot down by a cabal of "fanatical Rocket owners."

Whenever someone posted that:
1) those Rockets failed to live up to their expectations,
2) do not sound good,
3) too laid back,

The inevitable response from this cabal would be:
1) the rest of your equipment are not high end enough to bring out the "true" potential of the rockets,
2) let the speakers break in, for at least 31 days (the return period ends after 30 days),
3) your listening room needs acoustic treatment,
4) you just don't have those golden ears,
5) you are simply just crazy not to love those Rockets :eek:


There, that's my summary of those glowing "owner feedback" on avsforum from about a year and half ago. Things have cleaned up a lot since that forum's administrator stepped in and gave stern warnings to that "owners'" cabal.

Can you please provide some references to your claims?

[Fb111794]

FC and Z,

People's eyes have alredy been opened to the "business model" that Team R utilizes.

best,
Ross.

Ross:

You are certainly right about this one.... CES this year proves this for sure.

Many MANY eyes were opened this year at CES on the sheer quality of ONIX offerings (both present and soon to be released), at insanely affordable prices. Heads are beginning to turn for sure.

The fact that they already have THOUSANDS of satisfied customers with just a "few" product offerings, bodes very well for the future of AV123 as more and more of these new products come to market.

The fact that they are putting a big hurt to the snobbish high end B&M stores that wouldn't know anything at all about customer service unless you walk in and spend $10,000 plus, and could care less about us average Joes out here trying to learn and grow in audio.... well that doesn't bother me one bit.

As one of those "Joes" trying to listen to all I could a couple of years ago, and being treated like a piriah because I wasn't there to spend money, BIG money today.... well, I say it serves them right.

I actually made an appointment at a high end dealer in Chicago (I live in Indy).... drove 3 and a half hours (they were the closest dealer at that time) so I could spend an afternoon listening to Audes speakers. When I arrived.... not only did they act like they didn't know who I was, even though I offered the confirming email showing my appointment and what I wanted to listen to, I was told that they didn't have what I wanted set up and were too busy to do so. It WAS a Saturday after all :eek: . After complaining to the very unsimpathetic manager.... I was told that they were "out of stock" on those speakers.... too bad.... so sorry.

Fortunately, a dealer was appointed here soon after and I was not only able to listen, but make a substantial purchase. Guess what? That company in Chicago is now gone and out of business. Oh darn. I am SO dissapointed. This dealer may or may not make it.... time will tell.

Internet direct companies.... especially those that manufacture most of their own products have learned some key things.... satisfy your customer at all costs. Over deliver on the price/performance issue and service each and every single customer as if they spent hundreds of thousands of dollars with you. Make them feel important and part of the "family" so to speak.

In other words.... what the old Sears & Roebuck used to be. (although, I'll give the current Sears credit for their treatment of employees and their families with regards to being called up to active duty)

Like it or not....THAT sir.... is why a lot of these Internet direct companies are not only doing quite well, but flourishing.

John W.
Indy

[Fb111794]

Can you please provide some references to your claims?

No he can not.

What FC fails to mention is that there WERE some issues with some of the early speakers that got through with some QC problems. Those issues were cleared up immediately and the problems were resolved. When satisfied owners chimed in and asked questions about the problems a person was having.... asking the "break in, room placement" type questions.... the trolls were quick to chime in and start the mud slinging. THAT was the reason that things often got out of hand.

Sure there were even those that simply didn't like the sound of the speakers. No one ever had a problem with that. They might again have questioned front end gear, room placement type questions, but in the end were always civil about a persons NOT liking the ONIX Rocket brand of speakers. Until, that is, the trolls would show up and start the skulldugery.

FC may have selective memory. I admit to getting a bit older myself and can be prone to that from time to time as well. I was an active participant in that thread from day one. The mega Diva thread before that as well. The charge that the Rocket crowd was accusatory of someone not having "golden ears" because they didn't like the ONIX Rockets, is simply un true.

I'm not saying that there wasn't a post from time to time that may have been that way.... but to say the whole crowd or "cable" was like that is a major falsehood in every respect.

Unfortunately.... once an accusation is made.... some automatically assume guilt without checking the facts. That may work with mass media, but I give more credit to those who frequent forums such as this one. They are far more intelligent and resourceful than FC seems to give them credit for and see through such diatribe for what it's worth.

John W.
Indy

[AnotherGeorgeM]

Yes, but the Genisis I am speaking of made "lifetime warranty tweeters". I think this was the reason they went bankrupt.
Hi zumbo, I did a google on "Genisis" and sure enough there were speakers called "Genisis". However the speakers by Arnie Nudell (previous owner of Infinity) that were mentioned was spelled "Genesis" with an "e".

Here's their website:

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/

Here's a direct link to their products:

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/products.html

[craigsub]

Back in the late 70's and early 80's, there was the Genesis Physics Co. ... they made the speakers with the lifetime warranty... those tweeters were ALWAYS blowing.

I sold them as part of my sales job while attending university. We replaced the tweeters on the spot, and Genesis sent us tweeters in 24 to the box cases.

All their designs were ported or Passive Radiator ... not bad sounding, either.

[Nomo]

Well, after viewing this thread for WAY too long I can only say two things:

1) I've never heard Rocket speakers. Barely heard of them.

2) I'll never go out of my to hear them or even consider buying them.

The emergence of so many newbies in the course of this thread is way beyond coincidental.

"Gentlemen" your tactics are nothing short of Monster Cable-ish.

[craigsub]

NomoSony ... Being a Newbie to a particular forum does NOT make one a Newbie to audio. I have been an avid audiophile for almost 30 years, and an active participant in other forums ...

I learned about a totally untrue hatchet job being done to AV123 by a member of that forum who linked to here.

The presense of the "newbies" here is not coincidental. Nor is it some form of conspiracy. You have one Audes, one Axiom, and one Rocket/Axiom/Ascend/ACI/McIntosh/Denon owner (yours truly) that have decided the NONSENSE that was being posted ABOUT and AGAINST AV123 should NOT go unchallenged.

Of course, If you think outright lies are a GOOD thing ... then side with FurryCute and his sidekicks here.

I have seen this type of rubbish said about Hsu, Axiom, Ascend, and SVS ... and also Klipsch and Paradigm.

I don't care WHO the company is ... when some AGENDA PUSHING "gentleman" slams ANY credible company, and I know about it, I will defend that company.

It is called being decent.

[Nomo]

Your message has too much bass and not nearly enough sound stage.

[craigsub]

Your message has too much bass and not nearly enough sound stage.

Are another example of an individual lacking the intelligence for reasonable conversation and/or debate.

For the record, I expect the word "sucks" from my 8 year old if he loses his temper. HE also gets sent to his room.

[Fb111794]

Well, after viewing this thread for WAY too long I can only say two things:

1) I've never heard Rocket speakers. Barely heard of them.

2) I'll never go out of my to hear them or even consider buying them.

The emergence of so many newbies in the course of this thread is way beyond coincidental.

"Gentlemen" your tactics are nothing short of Monster Cable-ish.

Yeah.... NS, I can certainly see your point. I suppose it would look that way. It is unfortunate that it would come to something like this. There is however, a real sense of family over in the AV123 community. Maybe it's because the owner of the company himself interacts with the folks who post there. He even, like I mentioned, posts his personal cell phone number on a regular basis for anyone who feels the need to call him personally. You just can't find something like that many other places.

It's funny in a way.... I find myself often "sticking up" for AV123 when I don't even own Rockets. Well, that's not true.... I do own a set of the little HTIB TYKES that my girls have in their HT system. Still though, I have been befriended by Mark Schifter and am on a first name basis with him. I am treated with the utmost respect over there even though most everyone there knows I'm a HUGE AUDES fan AND owner.

What gets under my skin more than anything else.... is when all of the half truths and down right un truths start spewing from those who, for whatever reason, have it "in" for this company and brands. That just doesn't sit well with me and I say so. It's just my opinion.... nothing else and should be taken as just that.

I certainly respect ones right to have an opinion (positive OR negative) about a product or company. There's nothing at all wrong with that. What IS wrong.... is someone with an agenda that starts making "statements as facts" that are simply un true. THAT'S when I speak my mind.

Sorry if I have come across as anything other than thoughtfull and even handed in my reply's. I hope I am still welcome here. It seems like a nice place.

John W.
Indy

[zumbo]

Hi zumbo, I did a google on "Genisis" and sure enough there were speakers called "Genisis". However the speakers by Arnie Nudell (previous owner of Infinity) that were mentioned was spelled "Genesis" with an "e".

Here's their website:

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/

Here's a direct link to their products:

http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/products.html

Thanks for the spelling lesson. It was a mistake. Genesis is what I meant. How does that Google thing work? :rolleyes:

[Ross]

I never thought I'd see the day, the day that Team Rocket went into a complete meltdown.

I guess what they say it true, if you give someone enough rope, they will end up hanging themselves...

crank up your rockets, and relax fellas...

best,
Ross.

[zumbo]

Back in the late 70's and early 80's, there was the Genesis Physics Co. ... they made the speakers with the lifetime warranty... those tweeters were ALWAYS blowing.

I sold them as part of my sales job while attending university. We replaced the tweeters on the spot, and Genesis sent us tweeters in 24 to the box cases.

All their designs were ported or Passive Radiator ... not bad sounding, either.

That's the ones. They sounded sweet. But not much for reliability.

[craigsub]

I never thought I'd see the day, the day that Team Rocket went into a complete meltdown.

I guess what they say it true, if you give someone enough rope, they will end up hanging themselves...

crank up your rockets, and relax fellas...

best,
Ross.

1. You make accusations without evidence.
2. When asked for the evidence, you tell person to find it for himself.
3. Then call persons who ask for evidence a "team".
4. Never prove one accusation.
5. Then pretend you have the high ground.

I am quite relaxed. Thanks for the advice, though.

[craigsub]

That's the ones. They sounded sweet. But not much for reliability.

That is an understatement. Hey... at least the woofers lasted.

We also started to charge habitual tweeter destroyers $10 for the labor required. It was our Monday Night Football Beer and Wings Fund ... :cool:

[TinHere]

The emergence of so many newbies in the course of this thread is way beyond coincidental.
"Gentlemen" your tactics are nothing short of Monster Cable-ish.

AV123 has earned a respect that will see false allegations challenged. I didn't post about this thread because I felt I needed help but just to inform the community of what was transpiring. Questions I asked here are still unanswered, and no proof of any wrongdoing has been shown. Yet, the negative comments continue. A new thread has been started. Yeah, the people that are defending the Rocket's are really looking to stir things up. FC's and a few others actions are to say the least goading.

Team Rocket.....Anyone wanna buy a t-shirt?

How about one that says....The Truth Doesn't Matter Because I Know You

[T-Bone]

I never thought I'd see the day, the day that Team Rocket went into a complete meltdown.

I guess what they say it true, if you give someone enough rope, they will end up hanging themselves...

crank up your rockets, and relax fellas...

best,
Ross.

Tell you what... either you or furrycute go over to AVSForum an bash any speaker brand/company, other than Onix/Rockets, that you want to. Go ahead... And if you receive a slew of responses defending that bashed speaker/company (just like this thread received), then we will have learned something: audio enthusiasts will come to the defense if they feel the bashing is unwarranted. It is that simple.

[VS540]

Here are some links that I guess "prove" what poor quality products come from av123.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/onix-reference-3-speakers-11-2004.html

http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/rocket_ufw_10.htm

http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/rocket_speakers/index.html

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_10_3/onix-rocket-speakers-8-
2003.html

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue15/onix.htm

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/rocket_elt.htm

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/onix-reference-speakers-5-2004.html

http://www.av123.com/images_dynamic/news/SterophileRev-Jan2001.pdf

I also assume when reviews from Stereophile, Ultimate AV and other magazines start coming out that will only be because "Team Rocket" bought them off?

You people need to show a little maturity and act like adults instead of school yard bullies. You can sit there and make all the false claims, and make up all the lies you want. You only prove what "quality" people you really are not only on this forum but in person as well.

[Rob Babcock]

I think enough has been said on this topic.

[Clint DeBoer]

Everyone is getting too flamed about this. The point is not that the Rockets are not good. The point is, as far as my posting, that they can NOT compare to B&W 703's. NO HOW, NO WAY! PERIOD!Let's keep this civil. For everyone: try not to compare your opinion to an objective fact. If you post measurements that's one thing, but this is starting to go down the tube fast...

As for the other accusations. We've learned (the hard way) not to post or write anything you can't prove (regarding accusations). Try to live by this principle on the forums please... You can find conspiracy in anything if you look hard enough. Trouble is - it's usually not there.