How does one deal with an oddly shaped room?

[Chopper Greg]

From what I am given to understand, the perfect room for home theater is fairly even in respects to one wall being parallel with it's opposite without being perfectly square or having a length that is twice it's length.

So how does one deal with a room with uneven walls, and is directly attached to and opens up directly to another room ( not to mention half of a cathedral ceiling )?

[bpape]

Can you post a rough sketch of the space? There really isn't a generic answer as to how to deal with a room like that.

Bryan

[Chopper Greg]

How about a really rough sketch and a few poor pic's?

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Greg__H/untitled.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Greg__H/Image028.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Greg__H/Image025.jpg
http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Greg__H/Image024.jpg

[AudiophileAudio]

What kind of acoustics problems did you meet? From your pics I cannot see where you position your loudspeakers.
The only thing I can assume is that you are probably going to place a TV in front of the couch. This means you will have the sun light reflecting on the screen. Can you place your TV by the east wall?

[Glenn Kuras]

For a room like that I would put bass trapping in the front corner and place panels on the one side wall. It will not be perfect but will help to even things out a bit.

[lsiberian]

I was thinking a bulldozer, but I guess that might be too messy. :D

[njedpx3]

Chopper_Greg,

Do you have some type of auto-setup with a microphone on your AVR ? The automatic setup does wonders for calculating listening distances and giving you an intial starting settings. Then use a manual mode with a dB meter and set all the levels equal from you listening point. Just setting up this way will do wonders for an odd shaped room. If you are getting excessive audio bounce/replection, pictures and audio traps can do acoustic magic.

Good Luck!

NJ

[Chopper Greg]

I have no equipment as of yet ( I take that back, I have almost no equipment just a PS3, a BlueRay capable multimedia laptop with HDMI and standard video connections, and an old reel to reel tape player I want to put back into service ) - I'm trying to get an idea about how to handle the shape of the room so I can buy equipment that will assist.

Rough dimension's are:

10' along the east wall before the sliding glass door becomes an issue.
15' along the north wall.
11' along the west wall, and 7 ft along the south wall.
Ceiling is just under 12' @ the west wall and 8' along the east wall.

The first pic is from the far side of the couch shown in #3
The second pic is from just inside the kitchen ( just to the south of the room in question ) on the opposite side of the couch.

I was thinking of placing floor speakers to either side of the entertainment center, with rear speakers on the fireplace hearth - but placement of the surround speakers have me stumped.

I really hate the wood paneling, and was thinking about some drapes along it, that would go along the walls ( behind the TV that would be on a wall mount just above the entertainment center ).

[Chopper Greg]

For a room like that I would put bass trapping in the front corner and place panels on the one side wall. It will not be perfect but will help to even things out a bit.

When you say panels on the one side wall - I'm failing to understand.

What panels on which wall? :confused:

[Glenn Kuras]

If your sitting on the couch it would be the side wall to right. They would go in the early reflection point. See the following to understand early reflection points.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/news_020209.html

I would also put panels on the front wall behind each speaker and one panel beside the right speaker to help with SBIR.
See the following to understand SBIR.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/news_070609.html


For the panels use 2" panels that are made from rigid fiberglass or mineral wool.

[Chopper Greg]

If your sitting on the couch it would be the side wall to right. They would go in the early reflection point. See the following to understand early reflection points.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/news_020209.html

I would also put panels on the front wall behind each speaker and one panel beside the right speaker to help with SBIR.
See the following to understand SBIR.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/news_070609.html


For the panels use 2" panels that are made from rigid fiberglass or mineral wool.

Ok, if I'm understanding things, what you are talking about is deadening the sound reflections of the wood paneled wall, is that correct?

Now one thing I'm am considering is the use of drapes over the paneling - not necessarily for sound but for athletics - but wouldn't fabric deaden sound to a limited to a degree? Would this cause a change with the early reflection points?

Another thing I have wondered about is placing the sub-woofer either on the center shelf of the entertainment or using a slimmer front firing model and placing on the lower shelf facing the couch -thoughts?

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g240/Greg__H/Image030.jpg

[jostenmeat]

When you say panels on the one side wall - I'm failing to understand.

What panels on which wall? :confused:

Just to help clarify the reasoning, that right sidewall is much closer than the left wall, and so it will be reinforcing that side asymmetrically. By absorbing that side, you should enjoy a more balanced audio experience.

Ok, if I'm understanding things, what you are talking about is deadening the sound reflections of the wood paneled wall, is that correct?

Yes.

Now one thing I'm am considering is the use of drapes over the paneling - not necessarily for sound but for athletics - but wouldn't fabric deaden sound to a limited to a degree? Would this cause a change with the early reflection points?

The whole point is to "change" the early reflection points; namely to absorb them. Fabric will only absorb some specific subset of frequencies, and only high ones at that. The goal is to use broadband absorption, if possible. And fiberglass and mineral wool are broadband.

Another thing I have wondered about is placing the sub-woofer either on the center shelf of the entertainment or using a slimmer front firing model and placing on the lower shelf facing the couch -thoughts?

Placing it on the shelf is a no-no. The extremely high amounts of resonance that could be created by the cabinet would mask, essentially ruin, your sub response. I don't think there's space for a sub there anyways, unless you're using some worthless HTIB excuse of a subwoofer.

[Chopper Greg]

The whole point is to "change" the early reflection points; namely to absorb them. Fabric will only absorb some specific subset of frequencies, and only high ones at that. The goal is to use broadband absorption, if possible. And fiberglass and mineral wool are broadband.

Ok the question then becomes - just how much of those walls do I cover, and where do I get that much of these panels and where do I find them?


Placing it on the shelf is a no-no. The extremely high amounts of resonance that could be created by the cabinet would mask, essentially ruin, your sub response. I don't think there's space for a sub there anyways, unless you're using some worthless HTIB excuse of a sub-woofer.

Some other options for sub-woofer position that occurred to me:

Under a coffee table ( to be purchased ) in front of the couch ( or if big enough actually acting as the coffee table :p ).
Behind the couch.
On a very sturdy shelf ( even using lag bolts into the studs to secure it into place ) up on the wall - this would get it up off of the floor, saving some space.

Thoughts?

[jostenmeat]

Ok the question then becomes - just how much of those walls do I cover, and where do I get that much of these panels and where do I find them?

GIK, Real Traps, Auralex, Ready Acoustics, and more, or make your own.

I'd guess, ideally, you'd treat the entire freakin wall. However, as with salt and pepper, you can add to taste. Have a friend help you find the first reflection points. Point a flashlight from your head at LP, to the mirror that someone is holding at the wall. When the light hits the speaker, you've found your 1st reflection. Do it for the other speaker now. You can do all of that x2 for "the other listener".

Some other options for sub-woofer position that occurred to me:

Under a coffee table ( to be purchased ) in front of the couch ( or if big enough actually acting as the coffee table :p ).
Behind the couch.
On a very sturdy shelf ( even using lag bolts into the studs to secure it into place ) up on the wall - this would get it up off of the floor, saving some space.

Thoughts?

I'm not attracted to any of those solutions. However, you mention home theater in your first post, and not really music. If space is such an issue, have you considered a transducer such as those made by Buttkicker or Earthquake. Attach to foot of couch, and shake your butt off.

[Chopper Greg]

GIK, Real Traps, Auralex, Ready Acoustics, and more, or make your own.

Make my own ---- I like that idea.
I don't mind a little DIY, where might I find some more info about making them myself?


However, you mention home theater in your first post, and not really music. If space is such an issue, have you considered a transducer such as those made by Buttkicker or Earthquake. Attach to foot of couch, and shake your butt off.

LOL -- The couch is so cushioned, I probably wouldn't notice.

Your right, movies is my primary, but that probably has something to do with the fact that I have never really had a good system for music. That being said, I not really into 'band' music but there are times when I do like to listen to a real orchestra playing classical and musicals ( CATS, Phantom of the Opera, and the like ) when I can.

Right now, I'm starting to lean to the Onkyo HT-S9100THX ( http://reviews.cnet.com/home-theater-systems/onkyo-ht-s9100thx/4505-6740_7-33332676.html?tag=rnav ) - it's sub-woofer is not excessively oversize, so I'm playing with the idea of just setting it right down in front of the entertainment center - any problems with that position?

[Glenn Kuras]

Now one thing I'm am considering is the use of drapes over the paneling - not necessarily for sound but for athletics - but wouldn't fabric deaden sound to a limited to a degree? Would this cause a change with the early reflection points?

Normal heavy drapes if covering all the walls will absorb only the high end so the room will seem "dead" but muddy/boomy. If you want to use drapes for looks then look into maybe using something that is acoustically transparent like Guilford of Maine. You can find it on our website, but you might also be able to find it locally (basically not trying to sell you something:))

[njedpx3]

If your sitting on the couch it would be the side wall to right. They would go in the early reflection point. See the following to understand early reflection points.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/news_020209.html

I would also put panels on the front wall behind each speaker and one panel beside the right speaker to help with SBIR.
See the following to understand SBIR.
http://www.gikacoustics.com/news_070609.html


For the panels use 2" panels that are made from rigid fiberglass or mineral wool.


Thanks for sharing :)

[Chopper Greg]

Normal heavy drapes if covering all the walls will absorb only the high end so the room will seem "dead" but muddy/boomy. If you want to use drapes for looks then look into maybe using something that is acoustically transparent like Guilford of Maine. You can find it on our website, but you might also be able to find it locally (basically not trying to sell you something:))

Thanks.

What I was considering was fairly light weight drapes ( just enough material to obscure the wood paneling ), except for dealing with the sliding glass door ( which would be light blocking ) which is to the far rear left ( just barely out of the room it's self ).

[Chopper Greg]

From my reading, I'm given to understand that the side surround speakers should not be placed pointing at the listening area, but to the rear and facing a direction that will cause the sound to diffuse into the listening area.

Is this true?

If it is, one of the problems I facing is the fact that on the left side of the room, the wall only extends to about even with the front of the couch, making it impossible to put the left side surround speaker behind the listening position ( which would require it to be about 3 to 4 ft out from the wall and 5 ft down from the ceiling--- how do I deal with something like this?


I had thought of placing the speaker so it is facing up with a reflective surface just above it directing the sound into the room - it's my thought that the combination would diffuse the sound in a way to make it difficult to pinpoint where it was specifically coming from ( which is what I under stand is the purpose of side surrounds - providing sound from a general direction ).

Am I misunderstanding the problem and the solution?

[jostenmeat]

From my reading, I'm given to understand that the side surround speakers should not be placed pointing at the listening area, but to the rear and facing a direction that will cause the sound to diffuse into the listening area.

That misunderstanding stems from the olden days when "surround sound" was a mono rear speaker.

Today, for a long time now in fact, all of the necessary surround cues are already embedded in the HT tracks themselves. Therefore, to get this is accurately as possible, you NEED the speakers firing at the listeners. When speakers are very off-axis, you no longer receive accurate freq response. All of the work that the sound engineers did for you is all for naught.

If it is, one of the problems I facing is the fact that on the left side of the room, the wall only extends to about even with the front of the couch, making it impossible to put the left side surround speaker behind the listening position ( which would require it to be about 3 to 4 ft out from the wall and 5 ft down from the ceiling--- how do I deal with something like this?

Pick a different angle? Side surround speaker is not necessarily meant to be behind you. In fact, for best side envelopment, directly beside you at 90 degrees is best. The reason why people have more obtuse angles with 5.1 side surrounds is as a compromise between side surround and rear phantom imaging. If for instance, you had 7.1, you could have both.

The point is that there's always a compromise, always a yin and yang. While you lose rear imaging, you gain better side envelopment. I think you'll still be pretty happy. Maybe even happier. I have a "hole" between my front stage and side surrounds that could be better gapped, for example.

I had thought of placing the speaker so it is facing up with a reflective surface just above it directing the sound into the room - it's my thought that the combination would diffuse the sound in a way to make it difficult to pinpoint where it was specifically coming from ( which is what I under stand is the purpose of side surrounds - providing sound from a general direction ).

Am I misunderstanding the problem and the solution?

Yes, I would say so!

[Chopper Greg]

That misunderstanding stems from the olden days when "surround sound" was a mono rear speaker.

Today, for a long time now in fact, all of the necessary surround cues are already embedded in the HT tracks themselves. Therefore, to get this is accurately as possible, you NEED the speakers firing at the listeners. When speakers are very off-axis, you no longer receive accurate freq response. All of the work that the sound engineers did for you is all for naught.

snip

Side surround speaker is not necessarily meant to be behind you. In fact, for best side envelopment, directly beside you at 90 degrees is best. The reason why people have more obtuse angles with 5.1 side surrounds is as a compromise between side surround and rear phantom imaging. If for instance, you had 7.1, you could have both.



If I put the speaker, right on the corner where the wall ends, it will be about even with the listeners knees - if what you say is correct, then it will not be so bad.

I guess the only question I have left is " How high up should the speakers be placed ? " - What I have read is that the speaker should be placed about 2-3 ft above listening position - is this correct or more stuff to ignore?

[jostenmeat]

If I put the speaker, right on the corner where the wall ends, it will be about even with the listeners knees - if what you say is correct, then it will not be so bad.

I guess the only question I have left is " How high up should the speakers be placed ? " - What I have read is that the speaker should be placed about 2-3 ft above listening position - is this correct or more stuff to ignore?

Ideal is to have tweeters at ear level. 2-3 ft above is not ear level. Whatever the final height is, make sure the tweeters are aimed at the listener's ears.

The "2-3 ft above listening position" is one of the prominent misunderstandings I was trying to address in my previous post. Now, if you have high seat backs, or anything that's blocking the audio with ear level surrounds, then of course you'd want to raise them. But like I said, make sure to angle them to be on-axis.

Listener's knee level is just too low. If it HAS to be that low, again, angle them.

[ParadigmDawg]

Here's an old thread about some panels I made. I moved on to GIK Elites after that. Room treatment was the biggest improvement I have ever made in my system. My wife made me take them down after we redid the living room, system hasn't sounded as good sense then...

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39835&highlight=acoustic+panels

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd47/greggable/GIK%20panel%20placement/IMG_0803.jpg

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd47/greggable/DualSubs009-1.jpg






Make my own ---- I like that idea.
I don't mind a little DIY, where might I find some more info about making them myself?

?

[jostenmeat]

Thanks Dawg, I totally forgot about addressing that request of the OP's.

Here is a video that nibhaz had embedded for us before.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/iyYUpkpL0gw&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/iyYUpkpL0gw&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

"There are some pics of the finshed product in this (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55848) thread."

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=587520#post587520

[Chopper Greg]

Ideal is to have tweeters at ear level. 2-3 ft above is not ear level. Whatever the final height is, make sure the tweeters are aimed at the listener's ears.

snip

Listener's knee level is just too low. If it HAS to be that low, again, angle them.

When I say even with knees, I'm not talking about their hight off of the floor -but the farthest along the wall ( that they can be mounted ), before the wall ends and the kitchen begins.

As for mounting them so the tweeters are at the same level as the ears, they will end up being mounted so low, that my kids might crack their heads against them coming around the corner ( then it doesn't matter how good they sound, I will be hearing sounds of a different sort :rolleyes: ).

Let me ask you this, as most speakers that I see are built so they mount that go directly on the wall, so do they make mounts that go on the wall that then let you angle the speaker and it will hold in position?


In some ways, the more I learn about how speakers should be positioned, the more unhappy I become about what I'm stuck with. I am starting to get the feeling that even ' good ' sound may be beyond my reach with what I have to work with ( at least with traditional methods ). :(

Just how well do ceiling mounted speakers work for HT?

What about the possibility of having multiple smaller speakers in the side surround positions in place of the normal bookshelf type to spread out the pattern better? As one end of the couch is very close to the one wall and the other end of the couch is several feet from the opposing wall, I'm now thinking that I'm going need some way of spreading the sound out a little, rather than having a speaker playing right directly into the ear of the person sitting closest to the wall ( or is this even going to be an issue? ).

I really appreciate the assist on this - I am going see about getting you some cold drinks when this is done!

[ParadigmDawg]

Inceilings work well for surrounds IMO. Are they as good as enclosed speakers in the perfect position...probably not but hey, we all live in the real world so we must deal with that. I use inceilings for my surrounds and I am quite pleased with them.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd47/greggable/Picture218.jpg

I also use inceilings in my bedroom and they work great for that.

http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd47/greggable/Inceilings002.jpg

[Chopper Greg]

Ok, so how then does one select in ceiling speakers acting in side surround capacity to go with / match your front ( L,R & C ) and rear speakers, and what are the criteria for placing their location and angles?

[ParadigmDawg]

If they are just for movies, then don't even worry about timbre matching, surrounds just are not that important.

If you are running 5.1 (which is all most people need) mount them across from the mains and about 2-3 ft behind you. I angle my woofers to fire to the back wall vs to the listening area.

[Chopper Greg]

While movies are the main focus. While I have no system now, although at one point in the past I did listen to a fair amount of classical and soundtracks, and once I have something to listen to, I will probably use it..

I might have to play with the angle a bit, as the ceiling, is a cathedral ceiling and ramps up in the direction of the wall that will hold the TV, and will be around 7-8 ft above the listening point.

[ParadigmDawg]

My ceilings are 14ft and it is fine. When I say music vs. movies, I mean do you listen to DVD-A or SACD. I like music in 2.0 or 2.1 and think 5.1 or 7.1 is best suited for movies.

That being said, I can put in a DVD-A of Pink Floyd and blow you away even though I have inceilings for surrounds.

[Chopper Greg]

There in is probably a fair part of the problem - I am trying to get 7.1 for watching movies.

I have a decent back wall for the rears and a wall for the fronts - but trying to figure the side surrounds has had me stuck.

[ParadigmDawg]

If you are running a good pair of backs, then the surrounds in the ceiling will be more than fine. I would save money and run a 5.1 but it's up to you.

[jostenmeat]

When I say even with knees, I'm not talking about their hight off of the floor -but the farthest along the wall ( that they can be mounted ), before the wall ends and the kitchen begins.

As for mounting them so the tweeters are at the same level as the ears, they will end up being mounted so low, that my kids might crack their heads against them coming around the corner ( then it doesn't matter how good they sound, I will be hearing sounds of a different sort :rolleyes: ).

Let me ask you this, as most speakers that I see are built so they mount that go directly on the wall, so do they make mounts that go on the wall that then let you angle the speaker and it will hold in position?


In some ways, the more I learn about how speakers should be positioned, the more unhappy I become about what I'm stuck with. I am starting to get the feeling that even ' good ' sound may be beyond my reach with what I have to work with ( at least with traditional methods ). :(

Just how well do ceiling mounted speakers work for HT?

What about the possibility of having multiple smaller speakers in the side surround positions in place of the normal bookshelf type to spread out the pattern better? As one end of the couch is very close to the one wall and the other end of the couch is several feet from the opposing wall, I'm now thinking that I'm going need some way of spreading the sound out a little, rather than having a speaker playing right directly into the ear of the person sitting closest to the wall ( or is this even going to be an issue? ).

I really appreciate the assist on this - I am going see about getting you some cold drinks when this is done!

Ah yes, I see your issue now. Yes, there are speaker mounts. Some companies like Ascend sell their own, and are very easy to install. Otherwise, for "universal" types, I like OmniMount, but you must get the highest weight rating you can. (Cause they're all over-rated I think).

I would just put em on the back wall then. You'll still be happy methinks. Or do as the dawg, and perhaps some in-ceilings. You've been getting good speaker advice in your other thread, btw, and I also agree that it's best to concentrate on the front stage. Whether that means 2 for starters, or the front 3. +90% of all the audio you will ever hear will come from there, and well over 99% of the dialogue as well.