JTR Speakers. They can't be this good!!!

[Robof83]

After reading this review

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/12lf_review.html

I am a little in dis-belief. The reviewer claims that these $1500 speakers out-performed the $135,000 Alexandria X2s. Every review I have ever read about the X2s has glorified them beyond belief saying they makes speakers such as the B&W 800d sound like tin cans.

In another review, the reviewer claims that these speakers have also bested the likes of the Revel Salon speakers and the $20,000 Aerial 20T's.

Could these speakers truly be a diamond in the rough?

[adwilk]

rmk here has them in his theater and I'm sure he'll chime in. He's owned some really nice gear including the Revels. He loves his JTR stuff. I've heard them in a pro-audio setup and they were unlike anything I'd heard in that arena. They are definitely on my short list when I get to putting together my theater. For the record, the Growler that they have is incredible.

[Robof83]

Yeah I saw the growlers but I just can't get over the fact that it is -10db at 35hz.

It doesn't even sound like a real subwoofer.

[griffinconst]

rmk here has them in his theater and I'm sure he'll chime in. He's owned some really nice gear including the Revels. He loves his JTR stuff. I've heard them in a pro-audio setup and they were unlike anything I'd heard in that arena. They are definitely on my short list when I get to putting together my theater. For the record, the Growler that they have is incredible.
Sorry to be a stoop but what is a growler?

[rmk]

After reading this review

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/12lf_review.html

I am a little in dis-belief. The reviewer claims that these $1500 speakers out-performed the $135,000 Alexandria X2s. Every review I have ever read about the X2s has glorified them beyond belief saying they makes speakers such as the B&W 800d sound like tin cans.

In another review, the reviewer claims that these speakers have also bested the likes of the Revel Salon speakers and the $20,000 Aerial 20T's.

Could these speakers truly be a diamond in the rough?

The “review” story regarding Revel/JTR Triple 12LF's was mine and it was the Ultima2 Studio’s, not the Salons. The other reviewer is a friend. The Aerial/JTR story was his and was regarding his Model 9's and the CC5, not the 20T’s. He was talking about a friend of his with the Wilsons who was very impressed with the Triple 12LF’s but as it turns out, he still has the Wilsons;).

The JRT speakers are much more efficient and can play louder than the mentioned “high end” speakers and do so without distortion. I was able to do a side by side (although not a blind test) and found the JTR’s more to my liking for my primary use, HT. The Revels, Aerials and certainly Wilson Alexandria’s are outstanding loudspeakers. I have been lucky to hear them and they are very detailed and sound incredible with high resolution recordings. Due to their low sensitivity, I found them lacking with rock played at reference levels. The same was true with action movies with huge transients.

If you look at the engineering, build and component quality you can understand why there is a large price delta (not to mention marketing and distribution costs). Once I heard the JTR’s, I realized that I was more a function over form person. For me, a speaker’s job is to make sound and my preference is for big movie/concert sound. I don’t buy speakers as furniture. While the JTR’s aesthetic compromises are more than most people can handle, I don’t find them ugly, just utilitarian.

As nice as their relatively low price is, the value for me is in their performance. You may not feel that way and that’s fine. To each his own. :)

[Robof83]

I was actually referring to http://www.thesoundbroker.com/JTR.htm when I mentioned the Aerial 20t's, not your review, sorry for the confusion.

[rmk]

I was actually referring to http://www.thesoundbroker.com/JTR.htm when I mentioned the Aerial 20t's, not your review, sorry for the confusion.

To further confuse the situation:p, I'm pretty sure the The Soundbroker was referring to this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1062777&highlight=jtr) post on AVS and that is the same review and speakers I mentioned.:)

[adwilk]

Sorry to be a stoop but what is a growler?

Its their musical subwoofer. Not suited for HT in all likelihood, but man was 2 of them impressive.

[adwilk]

Yeah I saw the growlers but I just can't get over the fact that it is -10db at 35hz.

It doesn't even sound like a real subwoofer.

Its meant for music. Most music doesnt go below 40 anyways. I think the lowest note on a piano is around 37 or so. acoustical bass is around 40 I THINK. The growlers are very powerful and very clean. They were as impressive as the T12s.

[Robof83]

Its meant for music. Most music doesnt go below 40 anyways. I think the lowest note on a piano is around 37 or so. acoustical bass is around 40 I THINK. The growlers are very powerful and very clean. They were as impressive as the T12s.



That makes sense.

They do seem to have a more HT oriented subwoofer now called the Captivator. Have you had a chance to listen to that?

[bandphan]

Yeah I saw the growlers but I just can't get over the fact that it is -10db at 35hz.

It doesn't even sound like a real subwoofer.

so its down from 132 dbs to 122;)

[septim]

Well I'm getting a pair of 12LFs soon and I can't wait. :D:D:D

I'm just worried my XPA-5 isn't gonna be enough to drive them. I have an EP2500 and am thinking about trying them with that. Too bad my sub uses it and I have zero money to spend on anything AV related for a good long time.

[mike c]

the soundbroker website mentioned a quintuple 8 speaker ...

i couldn't get the triple 8 because RMK had triple 12's - im pretty sure i'd get the buyer's remorse thing afterwards.

i couldn't get the triple 12 as that was too wide...

hmm, quintuple 8.

[Robof83]

Man I would be so interested in hearing these things. Unfortunately I just don't have the money at the moment, but I do plan on trying them for my next upgrade.

Also, I just noticed several new speakers that went up on their website including what looks to be a floor standing model.

[bandphan]

[QUOTE=Robof83;589719
Also, I just noticed several new speakers that went up on their website including what looks to be a floor standing model.[/QUOTE]

link please, i dont see any new ones:o

[Robof83]

rmk, would you say the speakers sacrifice sound quality at moderate volumes in order to play loud?

edit: sorry bandphan I guess I was a little delusional the last time I visited the website. I didn't notice that the HT speakers at the bottom are the same as the installation products at the top. As for the new tower speaker, I emailed Jeff Permanian about it and he told me he had been getting a lot emails about this very subject and he might just have to introduce one.

The tower he mentioned was called the quintuple 8. The specifications he gave for the speaker were 98db at 1 watt, 50hz-20kz, up too 1600 watts.

[rmk]

rmk, would you say the speakers sacrifice sound quality at moderate volumes in order to play loud?

Not at all, here is a quote from Mark Seaton:

The T12LF makes for a very obvious point of comparison with its much greater sensitivity and dynamic linearity as compared to more common home audio options (even very expensive ones). Combine those dynamics with a smooth overall power response without any major gyrations as you move around the speaker, and you have a speaker conceived as an easy to use and great sounding pro audio speaker which will work very well as a powerful home theater LCR. As you appear to have found, the subjective benefits are not just at ear-bleed levels, but at low levels as well.

[septim]

RMK what amp are you using to drive the JTR 12LFs? I have an XPA-5 which is 400 WPC but am thinking about selling it and going for a pro amp like an EP2500. What do you use/recommend?

[rmk]

RMK what amp are you using to drive the JTR 12LFs? I have an XPA-5 which is 400 WPC but am thinking about selling it and going for a pro amp like an EP2500. What do you use/recommend?

Honestly, I think you will be fine with the XPA-5 unless you want to listen to AC/DC Live at Donington BR at reference levels:eek:. More power is always better but you can give a try and sell the XPA-5 if it doesn't get it done for you.

I have and like a Sunfire TGA 400/7 and it is rated @ 800WPC for the 4 Ohm 12LF's. The pro audio amps are a great value but the fan noise can be an issue if they will be kept in the room. There are some fan mods that make then run cooler and quieter. I use a QSC (recommended by Midnightsensi;)) for my subs and it has been a great amp but it is has some fan noise too. My equipment is in a separate closet so that is not an issue for me.

I also like the new Ice powered amps (D-Sonic and Wyred) but they are very pricey as compared to the EP2500.

[lsiberian]

They are very good speakers. So they can be that good.

[rmk]

the soundbroker website mentioned a quintuple 8 speaker ...

i couldn't get the triple 8 because RMK had triple 12's - im pretty sure i'd get the buyer's remorse thing afterwards.

i couldn't get the triple 12 as that was too wide...

hmm, quintuple 8.

I think the new Triple 8's would have been a very nice solution for you and I seriously doubt you would have needed more speaker ... ever. To bad you missed that intro price as that would have covered the shipping cost.

[Robof83]

the soundbroker website mentioned a quintuple 8 speaker ...

i couldn't get the triple 8 because RMK had triple 12's - im pretty sure i'd get the buyer's remorse thing afterwards.

i couldn't get the triple 12 as that was too wide...

hmm, quintuple 8.


I doubt you would get buyer's remorse. In the email I received he said that there really was no difference in sound quality between the 8 and the 12. The 12 was just meant to do what the 8 could do, but louder.

[MidnightSensi]

I've heard the JTR 12s, /great/ speakers. I posted some impressions a bit back I'll take a look for.

Jeff at JTR is also a really nice guy.


Honestly, I think you will be fine with the XPA-5 unless you want to listen to AC/DC Live at Donington BR at reference levels:eek:. More power is always better but you can give a try and sell the XPA-5 if it doesn't get it done for you.

I have and like a Sunfire TGA 400/7 and it is rated @ 800WPC for the 4 Ohm 12LF's. The pro audio amps are a great value but the fan noise can be an issue if they will be kept in the room. There are some fan mods that make then run cooler and quieter. I use a QSC (recommended by Midnightsensi;)) for my subs and it has been a great amp but it is has some fan noise too. My equipment is in a separate closet so that is not an issue for me.

I also like the new Ice powered amps (D-Sonic and Wyred) but they are very pricey as compared to the EP2500.

Cheers. ;) QSC makes a great amp, I've spent many-a-quality-time with them. QSC makes a great, reliable, amplifier at a good price.

I more recently realized that the Crest CC series amplifiers are almost silent, quieter than my PlayStation 3. They also make a great amplifier, I've used them a long time just never noticed how quiet they were until I connected one in my home theater. Needless to say, now my home theater rack is all Crest. Their protection is partially solenoid based, so when you turn it on it makes a big mechanical "clank" after it stabalizes but then after that they are extremely quiet.

Also, both QSC and Crest are American companies, which is a bit of a "thing" with me lately considering the economy.

[bandphan]

I think the new Triple 8's would have been a very nice solution for you and I seriously doubt you would have needed more speaker ... ever. To bad you missed that intro price as that would have covered the shipping cost.

you know he has "cone size" envy and no matter what Dr.Katz says, he still wants more

http://quintcobb3.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/michael_douglas_greed_is_good.jpg

[jostenmeat]

http://www.ohgizmo.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/up_dog.jpg

[rmk]

I've heard the JTR 12s, /great/ speakers. I posted some impressions a bit back I'll take a look for.

Jeff at JTR is also a really nice guy.




Cheers. ;) QSC makes a great amp, I've spent many-a-quality-time with them. QSC makes a great, reliable, amplifier at a good price.

I more recently realized that the Crest CC series amplifiers are almost silent, quieter than my PlayStation 3. They also make a great amplifier, I've used them a long time just never noticed how quiet they were until I connected one in my home theater. Needless to say, now my home theater rack is all Crest. Their protection is partially solenoid based, so when you turn it on it makes a big mechanical "clank" after it stabalizes but then after that they are extremely quiet.

Also, both QSC and Crest are American companies, which is a bit of a "thing" with me lately considering the economy.

Sure, NOW you mention Crest:p

[MidnightSensi]

Sure, NOW you mention Crest:p

Hahaha. Well, at the time I didn't know they were quiet, I always used them in noisey places. :) They don't advertise it (well, they advertise variable speed fans), and if I wouldn't have hooked one up one day in my theater I probably still wouldn't have noticed.

[rmk]

Hahaha. Well, at the time I didn't know they were quiet, I always used them in noisey places. :) They don't advertise it (well, they advertise variable speed fans), and if I wouldn't have hooked one up one day in my theater I probably still wouldn't have noticed.

Actually, the QSC is perfect for my use so no regrets there;). If my Sunfire ever dies, I will look into Crest to drive the JTR's.:cool:

[WmAx]

After reading this review

http://www.jtrspeakers.com/12lf_review.html

I am a little in dis-belief. The reviewer claims that these $1500 speakers out-performed the $135,000 Alexandria X2s. Every review I have ever read about the X2s has glorified them beyond belief saying they makes speakers such as the B&W 800d sound like tin cans.

In another review, the reviewer claims that these speakers have also bested the likes of the Revel Salon speakers and the $20,000 Aerial 20T's.

Could these speakers truly be a diamond in the rough?

Artificial excitement.... even the 802D is engineered far better than then Alexandria (and costs but a tiny fraction)... difference is the 802D is probably far more linear in response. Want a nice roller coaster response? Add a nice DSP eq and you can get just about any sound you want out of an 802D, assuming good room acoustics (a must for any speaker). Only thing the Wilson has going for it is the impressive looking size/presence. None of Wilson's highest end speakers ever measured very well in the past - if the Alexandria 2 does, it would be a big surprise - they perform merely 'good' historically and use a hard wired EQ curve to get a specific coloration and response from certain people it seems. If you want the best overall measuring monopole commercial loudspeaker in the world, look towards the high end offerings from YG Acoustics.

-Chris

[WmAx]

Yamaha pro amps are superb for home use. They have ZERO fan noise. Superbly designed/built. Available in a large variety of power ranges to meet your needs. Reasonably priced (about the same as QSC RMX line).

-Chris

[Seth=L]

Yamaha pro amps are superb for home use. They have ZERO fan noise. Superbly designed/built. Available in a large variety of power ranges to meet your needs. Reasonably priced (about the same as QSC RMX line).

-Chris
Chris, I am curious what your thoughts are about these JTR speakers.

[WmAx]

A speaker like the JRT is not going to provide the absolute resolution and realism of a live unamplified performance, but they will perform superbly for HT/surround use and amplified live concert recordings/DVDs, etc.. You only need 100 watts/channel to have real concert level SPLs in your room. Just keep in mind, this is in the 115-120 constant slow weighted range and will start to cause permanent hearing damage inside of 30 minutes. Personally, 95dB is very loud to me - and even this will damage your hearing eventually. Classical music concerts vary, and very roughly, you can expect from about 77-85dB averaged slow weighting, with 20-35 dB peaks. Some large scale concerts with very specific music, will play on average louder, even in the lower to mid 90's on average - but this is not all that common. These dB ranges are based on typical seating positions by audience members. Obviously, the very front row... to the conductor to the musician perspective gradually increases in constant SPL level. Typical high end speakers like 802D as example, have more than ample dynamic range to reproduce these kinds of performance. However, when one wants to actually reproduce the SPL ranges of live amplified concerts..... you obviously need something with greater output. You do in most cases, give up absolute SQ for this SPL ability. It is possible to get this SPL level without any compromise, or very little compromise, but this would require extremely expensive solutions such as a special line array speaker with low resonance construction (this would result in huge expense and very high mass). It may also be possible to come close for less money, using a very specific combination of pro drivers. The primary problem here is that it would have to be at least a 5 way system, most probably, to avoid the problems of the very narrow ideal bandwidths of the very high sensitivity pro drivers. I may look into this area of design later on, if demand for such sensitivity ranges is more popularized. I'm not one to not have practical engineering experience in designing a 'state of the art performance' version of anything related to consumer sound reproduction loudspeakers, if it can be helped.... and there seems to be some potential here.

-Chris

[WmAx]

Chris, I am curious what your thoughts are about these JTR speakers.

Indeed. I just posted them. :)

-Chris

[rmk]

A speaker like the JRT is not going to provide the absolute resolution and realism of a live unamplified performance, but they will perform superbly for HT/surround use and amplified live concert recordings/DVDs, etc.. You only need 100 watts/channel to have real concert level SPLs in your room. Just keep in mind, this is in the 115-120 constant slow weighted range and will start to cause permanent hearing damage inside of 30 minutes. Personally, 95dB is very loud to me - and even this will damage your hearing eventually. Classical music concerts vary, and very roughly, you can expect from about 77-85dB averaged slow weighting, with 20-35 dB peaks. Some large scale concerts with very specific music, will play on average louder, even in the lower to mid 90's on average - but this is not all that common. These dB ranges are based on typical seating positions by audience members. Obviously, the very front row... to the conductor to the musician perspective gradually increases in constant SPL level. Typical high end speakers like 802D as example, have more than ample dynamic range to reproduce these kinds of performance. However, when one wants to actually reproduce the SPL ranges of live amplified concerts..... you obviously need something with greater output. You do in most cases, give up absolute SQ for this SPL ability. It is possible to get this SPL level without any compromise, or very little compromise, but this would require extremely expensive solutions such as a special line array speaker with low resonance construction (this would result in huge expense and very high mass). It may also be possible to come close for less money, using a very specific combination of pro drivers. The primary problem here is that it would have to be at least a 5 way system, most probably, to avoid the problems of the very narrow ideal bandwidths of the very high sensitivity pro drivers. I may look into this area of design later on, if demand for such sensitivity ranges is more popularized. I'm not one to not have practical engineering experience in designing a 'state of the art performance' version of anything related to consumer sound reproduction loudspeakers, if it can be helped.... and there seems to be some potential here.

-Chris

Actually, the JTR’s (note letter sequence) are excellent for orchestral and un-amplified acoustic music. Of course that opinion is based upon actually listening to the speakers in question playing said music.

They do however rock hard when asked to do so.

Sorry to interrupt … you were saying?

[WmAx]

Actually, the JTR’s (note letter sequence) are excellent for orchestral and un-amplified acoustic music. Of course that opinion is based upon actually listening to the speakers in question playing said music.

They do however rock hard when asked to do so.

Sorry to interrupt … you were saying?

Unfortunately, the design premise of the JRTs would prohibit real sounding unamplified music reproduction. Such reproduction requires extreme low resonance, of both the cabinets and drivers, as well as a very wide off axis response. While I have not measured the JRTs, I am extensively familiar with the driver types used, their measured characteristics and as well, I can not see anything special about the cabinet used that would make it have extreme low resonance. This gives me a very good idea of the potential and limitations possible, measurably, from the speaker. If you have data showing this is immune to such typical limitations, that is, this speaker line uses some extremely innovative technologies to overcome these limits, that would make for an interesting read.

But you do realize my requirements for a 'hi-fi' speaker are not sane, right? :)

-Chris

[browninggold]

who makes the JRTs?

[rmk]

Unfortunately, the design premise of the JRTs would prohibit real sounding unamplified music reproduction. Such reproduction requires extreme low resonance, of both the cabinets and drivers, as well as a very wide off axis response. While I have not measured the JRTs, I am extensively familiar with the driver types used, their measured characteristics and as well, I can not see anything special about the cabinet used that would make it have extreme low resonance. This gives me a very good idea of the potential and limitations possible, measurably, from the speaker. If you have data showing this is immune to such typical limitations, that is, this speaker line uses some extremely innovative technologies to overcome these limits, that would make for an interesting read.

But you do realize my requirements for a 'hi-fi' speaker are not sane, right? :)

-Chris

Now I understand the problem ... you are describing JRT speakers which obviously you have heard, though as you say, never measured. Never heard of those myself, but I'm sure they are just as you describe them.

This thread is about JTR speakers:p.

Oh, and for the record, I do realize the "not sane" part.:)

[MidnightSensi]

Classical music concerts vary, and very roughly, you can expect from about 77-85dB averaged slow weighting, with 20-35 dB peaks.

30-35dB peaks?

So, um, lets take 80dB with 35dB peaks...

To handle those peaks without any clipping, with a 100watt sensitivity JTR you'd need 285watts at 9 feet. Which, it would handle no problem.

With a (generous) 90watt sensitivity of the B&Ws you'd need 2846watts at 9feet. ...which, I'm pretty sure the B&W would end up on your lap if you fed it that.


Now I understand the problem ... you are describing JRT speakers which obviously you have heard, though as you say, never measured. Never heard of those myself, but I'm sure they are just as you describe them.

This thread is about JTR speakers:p.

Oh, and for the record, I do realize the "not sane" part.:)

I've never heard the JRTs either. :D

The JTRs I did hear, one of the most striking things about them was the off axis response and wide coverage. It's probably one of the most obvious things someone would note on the speaker, and one of the funnier moments of our experts input on the "JRT" speakers.

[WmAx]

30-35dB peaks?

So, um, lets take 80dB with 35dB peaks...

To handle those peaks without any clipping, with a 100watt sensitivity JTR you'd need 285watts at 9 feet. Which, it would handle no problem.

With a (generous) 90watt sensitivity of the B&Ws you'd need 2846watts at 9feet. ...which, I'm pretty sure the B&W would end up on your lap if you fed it that.



I did quote those figures as the most extreme I have ever come across on any recording. 35dB is huge - but I have an opera recording from Mapleshade with that peak value over the RMS average value of the recording. I found that the recording sounded most realistic played at about 78dB average slow weighted. This required a peak value of just over 110dB for the maximum peak in the opera. 22-25db is the most common peak value for classical music. These peaks are instantaneous, lasing a few milliseconds at best. A speaker can easily handle 10x or more it's normal maximum power rating for a few milliseconds. The large speakers with high power handling and regular sensitivity levels can generally reach 110dB peaks when used in a pair, in a normal size room, without significant distortion. Also, the peak power is band weighted; almost always residing primarily in the LF to mid-bass band; with mid-range and treble progressively decreasing in actual power ratio. So, while if 110dB peak is true, this will be in the bass or mid-bass band, and as you cross the 400-500Hz threshold, 4-6dB average reduction in SPL average is true, and as you cross to treble, the SPL average ratio reduces further. The 802D as an example, places the mid-range xover point close to this first transition, so that the twin 8" woofers handle the majority of power. They should be fine for 110 or slightly higher peak ranges from 70-80Hz on up; but I would recommend high power subwoofer for under 70-80Hz so that full dynamic range can be realized.

General pop/rock/jazz has peak values of 15-16 dB if it's a modern audiophile high quality version, or a popular release from the early to mid 90's. 8-12 dB if it's a modern popular release on the top 50. If it's an 80's to early 90's super high quality recording of pop/jazz, it may have peaks of 18 - 22 dB.

I have gathered a great deal of statistical data on recordings from different genres and eras in order to be able to know appropriate power requirements and speaker requirements for a wide variety of scenarios.

I did make it clear that some people will require a very high sensitivity speaker to meet their particular preference(s) as the most practical solution.

I've never heard the JRTs either. :D

The JTRs I did hear, one of the most striking things about them was the off axis response and wide coverage. It's probably one of the most obvious things someone would note on the speaker, and one of the funnier moments of our experts input on the "JRT" speakers.

What you may consider 'wide coverage' is average to me. The JRT, based on inspection of the driver used for treble and the loading caused by the co-axial design, will at best equal the coverage afforded by a standard monopolar hi fi speaker design using a direct radiator 1" - 3/4" diameter tweeter; I do note this as potential - it's probably slightly worse, but it's hard to determine the specific cone profile used as the waveguide in the pictures. You really need even much wider dispersion to produce the effect of a more spacious/wider stage and more natural timbre for treble in the home environment; effects all well known in regards to perceptual research and correlation to the relevant dispersion. Ideally, to meet the potential, the speaker needs to have constant directionality as far as 70-75 degrees +/- (150 degree window) horizontally, and this needs to include the primary audible range (up to 14-15kHz minimum).

Do note this is only about dispersion/polar response. There are of course other issues that need to be addressed besides just dispersion.

-Chris

[fredk]

30-35dB peaks?

So, um, lets take 80dB with 35dB peaks...

To handle those peaks without any clipping, with a 100watt sensitivity JTR you'd need 285watts at 9 feet. Which, it would handle no problem.

With a (generous) 90watt sensitivity of the B&Ws you'd need 2846watts at 9feet. ...which, I'm pretty sure the B&W would end up on your lap if you fed it that.


Geez sensi, I had to run the numbers through the calculator to be sure. I'm sitting at 8' with 91db sensitivity and tend to listen at 80-85db max and know that gets me to between 60 and 70w with 20db of headroom.

I keep forgetting how quickly you run out of power once you pass the threshold.

FWIW I have measured as much as 25 db of dynamics from average on my limited classical collection (and my lowly ratshack meter).

[bandphan]

god forbid if this topics sways to Danley Sound Labs Subs :p;):D

[septim]

The JRT, based on inspection of the driver used for treble and the loading caused by the co-axial design...

-Chris

Either you have missed a lot of hints or you are doing this on purpose.

[Seth=L]

Either you have missed a lot of hints or you are doing this on purpose.
I think he just doesn't care. Even though he's spelling the acronym incorrectly we all still get the gist of what's been said I think.;)

[bandphan]

we all still get the gist of what's been said I think.;)

speak for yourself:p

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k107/bandphan/family_guy_average_retarded_creatio.jpg

[mtrycrafts]

speak for yourself:p

http://i86.photobucket.com/albums/k107/bandphan/family_guy_average_retarded_creatio.jpg

Oh,that's great, LOL :D:D

[mtrycrafts]

...
This thread is about JTR speakers:p.


Don't be hard on the guy, dyslexia sets in now and then to all of us:D

[WmAx]

Either you have missed a lot of hints or you are doing this on purpose.

Geez... I get JRT and JTR confused..... that's all..... did not seem like a terribly important detail to me.

-Chris

[Seth=L]

See, he didn't care. If correcting Chris's incorrect acronym is your way of defending your speakers....

You shouldn't care anyway, just enjoy your speakers.:D

[septim]

See, he didn't care. If correcting Chris's incorrect acronym is your way of defending your speakers....



Huh? WMAX forgets more than I will probably ever know about speakers but until someone has heard the speakers I don't really consider the review.

I was just wondering if he was actually reading the numerous replies in which he quotes people telling him he was spelling it wrong is all.

[rmk]

Don't be hard on the guy, dyslexia sets in now and then to all of us:D

It’s a big brain problem ... like a big ship, a big brain is slower to course correct. We small brained souls (like small boats) can adjust more quickly.:)

[bandphan]

All I can say about Robs setup is it blows mine out of the water. My musical taste is varied but live bluegrass un amped recorded with the highest quality mics and digital recorders is my preference and after hearing the trip 8s , I'm sold. Period. I know exactly how these recordings should sound as I was the one doing it and these speakers reproduce them flawlessly

[browninggold]

It’s a big brain problem ... like a big ship, a big brain is slower to course correct. We small brained souls (like small boats) can adjust more quickly.:)

That is gooood....almost want to use that in my signature:)

[rmk]

Back to the JRT’s:p and understanding my cranial limitations, they do cast a large and detailed sound stage. I was listening to music yesterday for a few hours (all too rare these days) and played a wide variety of music in both two channel and multichannel mode.

With my Revels, the two channel sweet spot was indeed sweet but move a foot one way or the other and the imaging and soundstage collapsed. Revel is known for good off axis performance but in comparison to the JTR’s their off axis performance is weak.

With the JTR’s, the center two seats were ideal (much larger soundstage than Revel) but the end seats also had a very good presentation of the sound. The JRT’s present a very full multichannel sound and differences between the seat locations are even harder to distinguish.

While they are great HT speakers, the JTR’s were built for music and in my opnion the answer to the OP’s original questions is yes, they really are that good.:cool:

[Seth=L]

Huh? WMAX forgets more than I will probably ever know about speakers but until someone has heard the speakers I don't really consider the review.

I was just wondering if he was actually reading the numerous replies in which he quotes people telling him he was spelling it wrong is all.
Sorry, my post wasn't directed at you.

[rmk]

See, he didn't care. If correcting Chris's incorrect acronym is your way of defending your speakers....

You shouldn't care anyway, just enjoy your speakers.:D

Sorry, my post wasn't directed at you.

Not caring about the details is for salesmen, not engineers. Critical commentary on an AV product that you have never seen nor heard is unprofessional ... IMHO

[Seth=L]

Not caring about the details is for salesmen, not engineers. Critical commentary on an AV product that you have never seen nor heard is unprofessional ... IMHO
That's not completely fair, as he said he's had experience with the type of drivers used in the speakers. Based on the weight of the speakers it's almost guaranteed they have a lot of cabinet resonance. They are very light considering the space they occupy.

[jamie2112]

That's not completely fair, as he said he's had experience with the type of drivers used in the speakers. Based on the weight of the speakers it's almost guaranteed they have a lot of cabinet resonance. They are very light considering the space they occupy.

Agreed ..............I have not heard them but I respect Chris's opinion as I have talked at lenth with him many times by phone and he is a mad scientist.When he says his expectations are not sane ....he means it....:D..I really would love to hear these JTR speakers if only because they are my initials........:D

[WmAx]

Not caring about the details is for salesmen, not engineers. Critical commentary on an AV product that you have never seen nor heard is unprofessional ... IMHO

Say what you will; I am aware of the inherent limitations of physics; I can make very accurate predictions based on some basic information.

I'll even give JTR the benefit of the doubt, that they kept all of these drivers operating within their pistonic bandwidths, and they have have the dispersion of a regular monopolar direct radiator (despite the tweeter recessed into an effective waveguide that appears to limit/control dispersion)...... but then there is no getting past that cabinet, which appears from descriptions, weight, etc.; to be an average braced cabinet made of hardwood ply. It's also a rather sizable cabinet; the probable outcome is substantial cabinet talk. It may be, the JTR would be a superb candidate for a modified cabinet. :) Perhaps there is some 'innovative' method used in this cabinet to radically lower resonance? If so, JTR has not mentioned or described any such special feature, at least not which I have noticed.

The JTR speakers have in fact inspired me to design a high performance home speaker based on mostly high efficiency professional drivers. I will point out: I plan to design this but not build it. I'll have a local cabinet maker build the cabinets to my exact specification(s); I just don't have the facilities to efficiently build complex cabinets. I'm still working on randyb's cabinets - man I wish I had initially planned that out to have a cabinet shop to do the primary construction...

-Chris

[rmk]

The JTR speakers have in fact inspired me to design a high performance home speaker based on mostly high efficiency professional drivers. I will point out: I plan to design this but not build it. I'll have a local cabinet maker build the cabinets to my exact specification(s); I just don't have the facilities to efficiently build complex cabinets. I'm still working on randyb's cabinets - man I wish I had initially planned that out to have a cabinet shop to do the primary construction...

-Chris

Good luck with that Chris, I am sure there are many here who look forward to the results of your inspiration.:)

[adwilk]

I guess this is a classic "who gives a crap" situation as far as measurements go... This thread clearly divides the two extremes of audiophileism :D ...

One wants to listen and enjoy the "sound", and one needs it to be perfect to even think about enjoying it. Nobody is really wrong here, and I respect both sides of the coin. Having heard the TJR :p and seeing the pictures of RMK's room, I cant imagine not enjoying those speakers in my own home. And, ultimately, because I've never measured a driver or worried about cabinet resonance, I think I'd be freakin thrilled. But, I'm on the wow factor- dynamic side of things which explains why I always seem to like the brighter side of some of the Klipsch offerings. They turn heads not because my friends are like "holy eff, I cant hear any resonance" but they enjoy the presence the speakers have in the room. I'd imagine the RTJ's are the same way.

On the flip side, there is a lot of intrigue to me in the science behind what truly makes a speaker great, ever before it makes a single noise. I can look at every spec of a golf club on paper and tell you if I can hit it well and if It'll feel right. Without a VERY particular blueprint, I would never put it in my golf bag and in almost every case, I've built it. So, I get Chris' insanity and factual based skepticism on the REAL performance of these particular speakers.

I imagine the two sides here never meet, but its interesting to see the polar opposite opinions of what makes a great speaker. For me, a great pair of speakers are like women, the more I drink.... well... you can probably figure the rest out...

[jostenmeat]

I guess this is a classic "who gives a crap" situation as far as measurements go... This thread clearly divides the two extremes of audiophileism :D ...

One wants to listen and enjoy the "sound", and one needs it to be perfect to even think about enjoying it. Nobody is really wrong here, and I respect both sides of the coin. Having heard the TJR :p and seeing the pictures of RMK's room, I cant imagine not enjoying those speakers in my own home. And, ultimately, because I've never measured a driver or worried about cabinet resonance, I think I'd be freakin thrilled. But, I'm on the wow factor- dynamic side of things which explains why I always seem to like the brighter side of some of the Klipsch offerings. They turn heads not because my friends are like "holy eff, I cant hear any resonance" but they enjoy the presence the speakers have in the room. I'd imagine the RTJ's are the same way.

On the flip side, there is a lot of intrigue to me in the science behind what truly makes a speaker great, ever before it makes a single noise. I can look at every spec of a golf club on paper and tell you if I can hit it well and if It'll feel right. Without a VERY particular blueprint, I would never put it in my golf bag and in almost every case, I've built it. So, I get Chris' insanity and factual based skepticism on the REAL performance of these particular speakers.

I imagine the two sides here never meet, but its interesting to see the polar opposite opinions of what makes a great speaker. For me, a great pair of speakers are like women, the more I drink.... well... you can probably figure the rest out...

I don't really see this as two sides. Well, not quite anyways.

Firstly, I think everybody agrees that reducing audible cabinet resonance is an ideal to strive for.

Secondly, Chris pretty much bashes every darned speaker made. Ok, outside of a handful of items. Let's see. B&W 802 or better. Highly modified bookshelves (cement included) coupled with stereo subwoofers, integrated by a Behringer DCX, using a relatively high xover point, which necessitates close proximity of each sub to respective monitor. Omnipolars of the finest quality, I dunno, prolly the MBLs. Um, I think that's it. Oh yeah, his own speakers.

So, let's say you put all of your eggs into Chris' basket (which I would never argue as an unintelligent thing to do), and bought such a setup. Your problems are still not over. He would probably tell you that you simply do not have the knowledge required to set it all up. So, damned if you did, damned if you didn't.

If you own a top of the line Paradigm, he will bash it.

If you own a top of the line Dynaudio, he will bash it.

If you own a top of the line Martin Logan, he will bash it.

Many of the regulars here understand where he is coming from, or more specifically, the points he is trying to impart. (We've read them many times).

Most of us, maybe all of us, concede that he is the nuttiest. Very smart. Very passionate. For those reasons, we often times will sit back, let him bash our speakers, believe him, give him the benefit of the doubt. Then other times, it just gets old.

[lsiberian]

Then other times, it just gets old.

I agree that the scientific mantra does get old to a degree. I believe it may be fun sometime to do a double blind comparison of all these speakers including Chris's.

The reality is that speakers are as much art as they are science. In some ways Engineering is essentially artistically using science to accomplish a given means.

This is why the forum has color's.

I'm sure my speakers resonate like a bell, but I built them with my own hands, blood, sweat, tears, and cussing so I don't care what speaker someone offers me. I won't take it because I poured my life into the ones in my living room.

For others they worked hard to find something that meets aesethetic and sonic perfection in their room. Will they sacrifice that base on the standards of another? I sure hope not.

For me the question is how big of a difference is there between Chris's perfection and other speakers and is it worth the effort to bridget that gap.

I would say in most cases probably not. A hundred dollar pair of speakers is more than sufficient for almost anybody on this planet for home use. Using little bracing and weak dampening they still sound excellent compared to many other methods. But for me I will find out and let you know.

I do like the fact he contributes credible, and excellent suggestions for DIY projects. I've learned a lot from him. I probably could have gotten it the knowledge somewhere else, but the Speaker Gang(Wmax, Swerd, Annukai, TLS Guy, Aversfi) is a large part of why I became a member of this forum.

JM take it easy man, sounds like from the tone of the post you need some theater time.

Rule 1 of this forum if you start getting upset you need to watch some movies or listen to music. :)

[jostenmeat]

JM take it easy man, sounds like from the tone of the post you need some theater time.

Oh, but I am. Who the fk are you?

Rule 1 of this forum if you start getting upset you need to watch some movies or listen to music. :)

I'm not upset. This is not the first time you've said this to me either. Get off your high horse. I've studied music enough where you'd probably have to quit your job, and go full time for the rest of your life to catch up with me.

[Robof83]

JM, I think you may have taken lsiberian's post the wrong way. I didn't really see any negative connotation in his suggestion. I could be wrong, but I felt it was more just a friendly piece of advice. It is pretty hard to convey that type of advice textually without it sounding condescending. I feel as though you wouldn't have taken it so negatively had you been talking to lsiberian in person.

[WmAx]

I give advice based on measurable effects that are known to be relevant to human hearing, according to credited perceptual research.

If a particular brand/model gets mentioned, or commented upon me, in a discussion, and I end up discussing why it deviates from ideal, that is meant to be informal/educational, not to be confused with any kind of 'bashing'.

Where I recommend specific things combined with processor(s), twin subs, etc.; I do offer PM set up support. I usually specify this to the person I make the suggestion to.

-Chris

[jostenmeat]

JM, I think you may have taken lsiberian's post the wrong way. I didn't really see any negative connotation in his suggestion. I could be wrong, but I felt it was more just a friendly piece of advice. It is pretty hard to convey that type of advice textually without it sounding condescending. I feel as though you wouldn't have taken it so negatively had you been talking to lsiberian in person.

Last time he gave me that exact same advice, again for a situation where I was not upset, I didn't say a single word. Not a peep.

[adwilk]

Oh, but I am. Who the fk are you?



I'm not upset. This is not the first time you've said this to me either. Get off your high horse. I've studied music enough where you'd probably have to quit your job, and go full time for the rest of your life to catch up with me.

Hey, Meat.. hows it goin? :D

Seriously... I see both sides because I'm looking at both sides. I want to understand why Chris would bash all the speakers you mentioned. Dont look at it as bashing. The same damn wedge shaft thats been proven and proven and that even some of the best players in the world use everyday is one I wont touch, Unless i'm taking it out and replacing it. I'm not bashing it, but until perfection is reached, there are only inadequacies. That is the other side and its legitimate. Now, does it get old...? Absofreakinlutely it does.

I like the art vs science perspective and their relationship to development. What if speakers that measured beautifully were awful to listen to? Vice Versa... Still a difference of opinion and proof that we all enjoy things differently. I guess it really isnt fair to tell someone they shouldnt enjoy something for any reason, and if we're going there, then even bose.

[lsiberian]

Oh, but I am. Who the fk are you?



I'm not upset. This is not the first time you've said this to me either. Get off your high horse. I've studied music enough where you'd probably have to quit your job, and go full time for the rest of your life to catch up with me.

Take it easy man. I meant no disrespect.

[jamie2112]

Its simple really,there are those here who believe cabinet talk is a real quantifiable issue. Then there are others who could care less and just enjoy their speakers.I am a wierd guy when it comes to sound. I am a live and studio engineer and have been for 22 years now. I have 3x platinum record recordings under my belt and years of critical listening in a controlled environment as well. I have listened to many many speakers over the years from $100,000 setups to $1000 setups and the difference was very noticable to me.I totally understand Jostens feelings as I felt like that myself before. I will say the man(Chris) is a very qualified speaker designer although he does "bash" alot of speakers,he is a perfectionist and we all know how that goes....I myself love reading Chris's responses to these threads.Yes he can be a bit opinionated but he is a perfectionist like I said. Chris really doesn't mean to sound like a know it all its just his nature.I can honestly say after speaking with Chris many times that he is a good guy with many crazy ideas that will in all likelyhood work at one point or another. I would really love to hear the JTR's myself as they have been getting great reviews. Like it has been mentioned before the cabs are huge and I would bet the resonance is pretty hardcore at moderate volumes just because of the weight published and the size of the cab.Although that may not matter to most people on here resonance really bothers some people and others could not tell the differance.Everyones ears are different and everybody hears differently than everyone else ,so really its all about if the speakers are pleasent to listen too.I would say that that is most important here is if YOU are happy with the speakers. It doesnt matter what me or Chris or Josten or anyone thinks.As long as you are happy thats really all that matters. I totally think everyone is right here and no need to get uptight about things. We all have our own opinion and thats what its about right????? Yes there are some opinionated folks here but hell, its an open forum and that makes for good debating....right...

[adwilk]

Way to go Jamie, you had to go and make a well thought out post with legitimate middle of the road arguments and remind everybody that its ok to have differing opinions... geez thanks a lot...

[rmk]

Not to get too heavy with this but as Igore would say "Too late!"

I may be the least brand loyal person on this forum. Although I often solicit the opinions of people I respect ultimately, I really don’t care what anyone thinks about my HT or any individual component. The real professional designers/builders I have come to know and admire in this hobby would never think of commenting on another person’s designs/products in a negative way (with the possible exception of BOSE:p).

If you present yourself as a designer and builder of audio products that you sell, you should expect to be held to professional standards of behavior. For an audio “professional” to opine and or criticize other products shows a lack of maturity and common sense.

Some here may find it amusing or entertaining, I do not.

[WmAx]

I may be the least brand loyal person on this forum. Although I often solicit the opinions of people I respect ultimately, I really don’t care what anyone thinks about my HT or any individual component. The real professional designers/builders I have come to know and admire in this hobby would never think of commenting on another person’s designs/products in a negative way (with the possible exception of BOSE:p).

If you present yourself as a designer and builder of audio products that you sell, you should expect to be held to professional standards of behavior. For an audio “professional” to opine and or criticize other products shows a lack of maturity and common sense.

Some here may find it amusing or entertaining, I do not.

I guess maybe that comment was meant to apply towards me. Though I'm not sure the above pertains to me... as I don't think selling 3 speaker systems last year makes me a 'pro' yet... LOL. I'm just a regular poster like anyone else, really.

In any case, I speak my mind, always.

Anyways, in regards to 'professionals', not all are so meek. You seem to forget Paul Klipsche... he spoke his mind regularly and even kept a little pin under his jacket corner near his kneck that said 'bullsh*t', that he would flip up to someone when they spoke utter non-sense. :)

Even if I did turn 'professional', I would not cease my critical analysis. Would people prefer to be ignorant of the facts? A cruddy product is a cruddy product; I don't care who makes it. What do I owe anyone to keep quiet about their cruddy product if the subejct comes up?

-Chris

[adwilk]

It is kind of "bad taste" to continually speak ill of what could be a competing product. Better to let your own product and reputation reflect superiority and not your mouth. We know you know your stuff, Chris. Let that be enough sometimes.

[jamie2112]

Way to go Jamie, you had to go and make a well thought out post with legitimate middle of the road arguments and remind everybody that its ok to have differing opinions... geez thanks a lot...

LMFAO Adam..............:D

[MidnightSensi]

Even if I did turn 'professional', I would not cease my critical analysis. Would people prefer to be ignorant of the facts? A cruddy product is a cruddy product; I don't care who makes it. What do I owe anyone to keep quiet about their cruddy product if the subejct comes up?

Well, if you haven't heard the JTR's (let alone get the name right) you can't really comment on if they are cruddy or not...

You sing all the lyrics but don't know the song brutha

[no. 5]

I guess it really isnt fair to tell someone they shouldnt enjoy something for any reason, and if we're going there, then even bose.

True, but there is a difference between telling someone they shouldn't enjoy something and telling them about a thing's limitations. There is often not a black and white deference between a 'good' speaker and a 'bad' speaker. For example, one speaker has a little too much treble, another is way, way too bright. Are they both equally awful? Hardly, a flaw does not preclude a speaker form being enjoyable to listen to, the extent of the flaw may have an effect, but almost every consumer loudspeaker has flaws; it doesn't necessarily mean they are 'bad', just that they could be a bit better.

Well, if you haven't heard the JTR's (let alone get the name right) you can't really comment on if they are cruddy or not...


It may be useful at this point to see what WmAx specifically said about the JTR's:
A speaker like the JRT is not going to provide the absolute resolution and realism of a live unamplified performance, but they will perform superbly for HT/surround use and amplified live concert recordings/DVDs, etc..

[bandphan]

It may be useful at this point to see what WmAx specifically said about the JTR's:

Thats why I posted about the bluegrass recordings i did:) I keep a select few soundboard and mic recordings for reference, and while I havent heard the 12s, I have the 8s and from a purely subjective standpoint, they did a wonderful job re-creating the concerts. Im bowing out of this thread as nothing productive is comming to fruition.

[mike c]

i say recommend something better than the TJR's to RKM ;)

so i can pick up the JRT's on KRM's next overhaul.

50 bucks apiece? :D (c'mon, i still have shipping)

[MidnightSensi]

It may be useful at this point to see what WmAx specifically said about the JTR's:


No, the whole point is that it isn't useful to hear what he said about them because he's never heard them. They could sound "superbly" or they could sound like garbage. He doesn't know, that's the point.

I think we need to make an analogy so we all can understand what I'm talking about here, because obviously the speaker thing isn't abstract enough:

I think that Megan Fox's t*ts have to be fantastic, but I don't really know because I've never seen them. I've seen pictures of her with a shirt on, and it looks like they are pretty nice, but I don't really know if there is an alien head growing out of one, or if they feel like rocks.... or maybe they are the greatest pair in the world... I can talk to you all day about what her t*ts might be like, or what I think they will be like based on what her mum looks like, or my previous experience with t*ts of similar size and shape, or what someone else told me they were like..... but the fact is until I'm bangin' Megan Fox I won't really know.

[no. 5]

No, the whole point is that it isn't useful to hear what he said about them because he's never heard them. They could sound "superbly" or they could sound like garbage. He doesn't know, that's the point.

Indeed he does not know, but everyone commenting in this thread that has listened to the JTR's has liked them very much, WmAx conjectured an opinion on their performance based on what he knows about the speakers, that opinion was in fair agreement with those who had listened to the JTR's. I don't recall WmAx saying his comment was anything more than conjecture, and as such, I don't see any reason why a comment by an experienced loudspeaker designer should be immediately dismissed. I am not about to suggest that full stock should be put into all of what he said about the JTR's, after all, he has no first hand experience or relevant data on them, but do you think that observations by knowledgeable people are completely worthless?

[croseiv]

Some things can be inferred just by looking at a product with out having ever heard one. For example, look at these two speakers and tell me which one you think would sound better...It's a no brainer for me.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s44/croseiv/Cerwin-Vega_HED_Speakers_web.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s44/croseiv/focus_spotlight.png

[jamie2112]

UUUUUmmmmmmm the 1st one? I just don't know hhhuuuummmmmm ok I like the orange woofers best........:D The other Pair are just way to cool to sound better than the orange woofers.......LOL

[Matt34]

UUUUUmmmmmmm the 1st one? I just don't know hhhuuuummmmmm ok I like the orange woofers best........:D

Everyone knows you can't beat some classic vegas!!:p

[Robof83]

It may be, the JTR would be a superb candidate for a modified cabinet. :)

-Chris


Just wanted to update this thread based on this idea. On another forum, the designer of the JTR speakers suggest not modifying the cabinets for reasons I somewhat understand but not entirely.

Here is the link http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16794106&posted=1#post16794106 His post is #172.

He says that Dynamat lacks the mass to work in the kinds of cabinets used by the JTRs. Couldn't you just thicken the layer of Dynamat to increase the mass? This I don't entirely understand. The rest of his post I don't really understand either. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable like Chris or someone else could explain this to me.

[WmAx]

Just wanted to update this thread based on this idea. On another forum, the designer of the JTR speakers suggest not modifying the cabinets for reasons I somewhat understand but not entirely.

Here is the link http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16794106&posted=1#post16794106 His post is #172.

He says that Dynamat lacks the mass to work in the kinds of cabinets used by the JTRs. Couldn't you just thicken the layer of Dynamat to increase the mass? This I don't entirely understand. The rest of his post I don't really understand either. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable like Chris or someone else could explain this to me.

I think you mis-understand my meaning of modifying cabinets. :) Dynamat is actually a critical part of it; but not by way of a single side application. I typically add a lossy visco-elastic layer like Dynamat, then adhere a second sub-structure cabinet directly to the Dynamat. Doing this creates a constrained layer system. This uses the two stiff layers to focus a shearing action into the damping core, effecting maximum conversion of mechanical to thermal energy. Simply applying Dynamat to the walls has some effect, but no where near enough to effect large differences that are desired. And you can add more, but a threshold point is quickly encountered where even if you add 5x as much, the effect will be minimal on it's own. You really have to effect another mechanism, such as the constrained layer system I described.

Here is the measured wall vibration of an Ascend CBM-170 vs. one I modifed: http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/ascend_cbm170se_wmaxmod/wallvibration_oem_vs_mod.gif

The modified version added 1/4" visco-elastic damping(similar to Dynamat) plus 1/2" re-enforced concrete 2nd inner cabinet layer, then extensive steel bracing. This is MY idea of a modified cabinet. Here is a picture of inside the modified cabinet before I installed the new back wall: http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/ascend_cbm170se_wmaxmod/9.jpg

You can also do a similar modification without cutting the cabinet open. You would have to install the visco-elastic layer through the cabinet openings, then use a 2 part idustrial floor epoxy ($40 1 gallon kit available at Lowe's) to make the required sub-structure. You should adhere some metal screen to the back of the Dynamat before pouring the expoxy to ensure an ideal adhesion to the Dynamat. Build up to about 3/8" minimum wall thickness. Place some additional oak braces inside before pouring the epoxy. For small 2 ways, 1 Gallon kit should be enough. For the Triple 8s, at least 3 Gallons would be needed.

-Chris

[Robof83]

Thanks for the response. Does less vibration always equate to better sound?

[rmk]

Just wanted to update this thread based on this idea. On another forum, the designer of the JTR speakers suggest not modifying the cabinets for reasons I somewhat understand but not entirely.

He says that Dynamat lacks the mass to work in the kinds of cabinets used by the JTRs. Couldn't you just thicken the layer of Dynamat to increase the mass? This I don't entirely understand. The rest of his post I don't really understand either. Perhaps someone more knowledgeable like Chris or someone else could explain this to me.

I understand your confusion, Jeff was being incredibly vague in his response to ru-yap's question on AVS.:rolleyes:

I think you are the perfect candidate for a custom build by Audioholics resident wizard. You just don't see old world craftmanship like this from any of the so called professionals.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/OldWorldCraftmanship.jpgl
:p

[just listening]

I went thru and read all of the posts, then I checked into the reviewer. The fact is that this is not a professional review. Just an AVS poster with some writing skill.

Based upon the design (I like Mark Seaton's work) what we have is a speaker system designed to bowl one over with higher volume sound pressure. That's what big drivers do, blast the listener. The tradeoff comes in macro dynamic detail, speed, etc..

I hope that some professional reviews can take place on these speakers. In the meantime during my business travels up and down the west coast I hope to run into these speakers and get a listen for myself. Until then, I'll stay on the fence.

[Robof83]

I think you are the perfect candidate for a custom build by Audioholics resident wizard. You just don't see old world craftmanship like this from any of the so called professionals.

:p

Actually I don't own the JTR speakers. I am working with an infinity beta 20 set up at the moment.

[rmk]

I went thru and read all of the posts, then I checked into the reviewer. The fact is that this is not a professional review. Just an AVS poster with some writing skill.

Based upon the design (I like Mark Seaton's work) what we have is a speaker system designed to bowl one over with higher volume sound pressure. That's what big drivers do, blast the listener. The tradeoff comes in macro dynamic detail, speed, etc..

I hope that some professional reviews can take place on these speakers. In the meantime during my business travels up and down the west coast I hope to run into these speakers and get a listen for myself. Until then, I'll stay on the fence.

If you are ever in the Sacramento area I would be happy to let you hear them. I am a skeptic myself and it was hearing them that moved me to purchase.:)

[Robof83]

These are definitely one of the speakers I plan on auditioning in a few years when I get out of college. I'm also really interested in hearing some of Jim Salk's speakers.

[lsiberian]

when I get out of college

Don't look forward too much to that. College is a great time in life.

Besides I'm not out of college yet and I've been going for years.

[Robof83]

Well I would go listen to them now, but I don't wanna get all exited over something I can't even come close to affording.

[WmAx]

I think you are the perfect candidate for a custom build by Audioholics resident wizard. You just don't see old world craftmanship like this from any of the so called professionals.


That was not a custom build, I'm afraid. That is the interior shot of an Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 in the process of modification to remove all cabinet resonance(s). I think it hardly matters if I did not clean up some excess adhesive run-over. This cabinet is vastly superior to most; it will not produce any audible cabinet talk. It's also very tough to cut concrete slabs very neatly to fit inside the unit properly. The external cosmetics were not reduced, here is the replacement back on the modified unit(original back was cut off to access internals for mods):

http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/ascend_cbm170se_wmaxmod/22.jpg

http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/ascend_cbm170se_wmaxmod/23.jpg

It's a lot easier to get 'neat' interior appearance when using more standard wood materials(MDF outer shell, 1/2" viscoelastic layer, PB inner layer, oak bracing placed in high density spacing configuration), as shown here internally for my computer speaker cabinets(these are the mid/treble top modules; woofer modules not shown), before completion:
http://www.linaeum.com/productinfo/other/infinity_primus160_ultra/braces_back_s.jpg

But what does it matter if the inside (that you never see) has some excess glue pools or some other similar thing present?

-Chris

[jamie2112]

I don't get the busting of chops on this thread. An objective post was put up and even with the credentials of this member he is getting crapped on.Why? Because he knows what he is talking about resonance wise? I am stumped here. These cabs may be the bees knees but looking at their specs and weight I find it really hard to believe that they are resonance free.

[jamie2112]

Thanks for the response. Does less vibration always equate to better sound?

IMO Yes always but I am a picky studio engineer.............:D
I would like to hear the JTR cabs very much but I am almost sure what they are going to sound like.Remember I have used EVERY Pro speaker cab made and then some.The look alone of the JTR's looks like a club speaker with the scratchy felt on them.In no way am I dissing anyones speakers but I will have to hear them myself. Anyone have any in the LA area?

[WmAx]

Based upon the design (I like Mark Seaton's work) what we have is a speaker system designed to bowl one over with higher volume sound pressure. That's what big drivers do, blast the listener. The tradeoff comes in macro dynamic detail, speed, etc..



While what you say is 'common' as a matter of practical results with most such designs, it is not an inherent limitation. With the proper design/execution, the pro drivers can produce the same amount of resolution as the very best planar or electrostatic speaker systems.

-Chris

[MidnightSensi]

IMO Yes always but I am a picky studio engineer.............:D
I would like to hear the JTR cabs very much but I am almost sure what they are going to sound like.Remember I have used EVERY Pro speaker cab made and then some.The look alone of the JTR's looks like a club speaker with the scratchy felt on them.In no way am I dissing anyones speakers but I will have to hear them myself. Anyone have any in the LA area?

I wish clubs were still using direct radiating drivers, these bloody horns are gunna make me go deaf. Even my booth monitors on Fridays is horns (see signature). Nothing against horns, other than my hearing going down the drain.

I think the JTRs were built more intentionally for portable sound, not a club speaker, and weight is factorered into that. He has a nicely braced cabinet though. Remember some of the wood weight is lost from the three 12" holes cut in them.

[Robof83]

I don't get the busting of chops on this thread. An objective post was put up and even with the credentials of this member he is getting crapped on.Why? Because he knows what he is talking about resonance wise? I am stumped here. These cabs may be the bees knees but looking at their specs and weight I find it really hard to believe that they are resonance free.

I certainly wasn't trying to crap on him.(I apologize if it came across like that) I was simply trying to ask questions about things I legitimately don't understand.

[jamie2112]

I certainly wasn't trying to crap on him.(I apologize if it came across like that) I was simply trying to ask questions about things I legitimately don't understand.

Wasn't you buddy..........:D

[jamie2112]

Wow thats 2 red chicklets from this thread..I feel better just knowing you are a coward who doesn't sign his neg rep......too funny as if I care..........:D The funny thing is if I gave you a bad rep you would know it as I sign my name....as you put it "punk"

[Seth=L]

Wow thats 2 red chicklets from this thread..I feel better just knowing you are a coward who doesn't sign his neg rep......too funny as if I care..........:D The funny thing is if I gave you a bad rep you would know it as I sign my name....as you put it "punk"
Anonymous poster and red chicklet giver: "would you like a negative chicklet?"

Innocent and most likely correct poster: "thank you sir, may I have another?"

and follows a couple of cliche lines....

"I pity the foo"

&

"BRING IT ON!"

&

"BRING IT ON AGAIN: the dancing money"

etc...

[adwilk]

Lowest note on the piano (A0) is 27.5hz and lowest note on an acoustic bass (E1) is 41.20hz.



Appreciate the clarification... I was obviously a bit off on the piano but close on the bass... thanks...

[Robof83]

My search into the JTRs has led me to the likes of Seaton Sound. Anyone have any experience with these.

They are considerably more expensive than the JTR but also appear to be very competitive at their price point.

By comparison they seem to be more HT oriented than the JTRs even though they are powered. By reading the forums I came to the conclusion that they won't play as loud as the JTR, but they must make up for this somewhere since they are twice the price. One reason the are more expensive is obviously because they are self amplified. They also look nicer and appear to be more well built. They are about the same size as the JTR Triple 12 but weigh 53% more.

In this link, http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3044980#1 the designer of the speaker, Mark Seaton, describes the details of the speaker including cabinet details.

Here is a frequency response and phase response graph http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3098564&trail=20#5 the frequency response looks to be pretty good. It shows +/-1.8db from 100hz to 20,000hz. I'm not knowledgeable enough to judge the phase response, but I'm sure some of you will understand it.

I'm not sure why the only show the fr graph from 100hz to 20khz since the range is from 55hz to 21khz.

I'm curious as to what some of the more well-educated member's objective opinions are on this product.

[jamie2112]

Sorry I can't comment any more or I will get an unsigned neg rep.........:eek::D

[Robof83]

How do you give negative rep and what does it do?

[Matt34]

My search into the JTRs has led me to the likes of Seaton Sound. Anyone have any experience with these.

They are considerably more expensive than the JTR but also appear to be very competitive at their price point.

By comparison they seem to be more HT oriented than the JTRs even though they are powered. By reading the forums I came to the conclusion that they won't play as loud as the JTR, but they must make up for this somewhere since they are twice the price. One reason the are more expensive is obviously because they are self amplified. They also look nicer and appear to be more well built. They are about the same size as the JTR Triple 12 but weigh 53% more.

In this link, http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3044980#1 the designer of the speaker, Mark Seaton, describes the details of the speaker including cabinet details.

Here is a frequency response and phase response graph http://seatonsound.websitetoolbox.com/post?id=3098564&trail=20#5 the frequency response looks to be pretty good. It shows +/-1.8db from 100hz to 20,000hz. I'm not knowledgeable enough to judge the phase response, but I'm sure some of you will understand it.

I'm not sure why the only show the fr graph from 100hz to 20khz since the range is from 55hz to 21khz.

I'm curious as to what some of the more well-educated member's objective opinions are on this product.

He is also developing a smaller active monitor called the Spark. I'm not sure how far out it is until production.

[rmk]

He is also developing a smaller active monitor called the Spark. I'm not sure how far out it is until production.

I get to hear the all Seaton HT setup (Catalysts, Sparks and Submersive) tomorrow.:cool:

BTW, the Triple 12LF's are 125lbs/ea and hardly lightweights.

[Robof83]

Thats awesome, let us know what you think. You are the perfect person to make the comparison since you already own the JTR.


Side note, I was referring to the Triple 12 not the Triple 12 LF which is actually a bit larger. The reason I compared the 12 and not the 12 LF was simply because the 12 was closer in size to the Catalyst.

Your point did help me notice something somewhat interesting though. The 12 LF is only 18% bigger than the 12 yet it weighs 2/3 more.

[Robof83]

He is also developing a smaller active monitor called the Spark. I'm not sure how far out it is until production.

I saw that. They also seem to be quite a bit more affordable as well.

[MidnightSensi]

I get to hear the all Seaton HT setup (Catalysts, Sparks and Submersive) tomorrow.:cool:

BTW, the Triple 12LF's are 125lbs/ea and hardly lightweights.

Keep me updated on it if you would. I've never heard any of the Seaton stuff.

Take some pics if you wouldn't mind. Always interested in a new active monitor..

[rmk]

Keep me updated on it if you would. I've never heard any of the Seaton stuff.

Take some pics if you wouldn't mind. Always interested in a new active monitor..

Thanks for reminding me to take the camera. Should be impressive as Mark arrived a day early to setup the system and I believe they are using a Audyssey Pro EQ to fine tune.

I'll start a thread with impressions tomorrow.

[MidnightSensi]

Thanks for reminding me to take the camera. Should be impressive as Mark arrived a day early to setup the system and I believe they are using a Audyssey Pro EQ to fine tune.

I'll start a thread with impressions tomorrow.

Cheers.

Run the stuff without the EQ also if you can.

Is he setting it up in your listening room?

[croseiv]

Thanks for reminding me to take the camera. Should be impressive as Mark arrived a day early to setup the system and I believe they are using a Audyssey Pro EQ to fine tune.

I'll start a thread with impressions tomorrow.

Looking forward to the summary of this GTG....:)