TSC TST3 Speakers

[bmwr75]

Greetings All,

We just received delivery of some new TST3 tower speakers from the speaker company.

They are hooked up to a Denon avr 1909 receiver and we have no sub.

Let me tell you I am very disappointed with these speakers. I understand that speakers *may* need some break in time, but these speakers are so MIDRANGE-Y, its painful.

I ran the Audysey setup multiple times while changeing the mic location a bit each time. I've tried tweeking the EQ settings on the receiver too, but I can't seem to dial in these speakers.

I even tried changing speaker placement, toe-in and out.

These things sound like two big powerful AM radios.

They have two 8 inch woofers, two mids and one tweeter. I'm thinking that I'm not buying into the side firing woofer baloney that speaker manufacturers are peddliing.

Am I off my rocker or what? Has anyone else tried these? I'm thinking of sending these back post-haste!!

All comments are welcome!

Thanks.

[allargon]

Not bright, not bassy but midrangey? I've now read everything.

Just out of curiosity, what's your source? CD, SACD, DVD-A, Blu-Ray, Minidisc?

[Highbar]

On top of what is the source what kind of a room are the speakers in? Are there a lot of hard surfaces? Wood floors, windows, wood furniture? Or carpet and plush couches? The room can have a huge affect on the sound also. I'm never heard of speakers being referred to as Midrange heavy either but it's possible.

Playing with the EQ might help but probably not by much.

[ace0001a]

Yeah that's the first time I've heard someone complain about too much midrange. First thing is that you've got 30-days to demo them and so I say let them break in and give them at least a couple weeks for you to get used to them. The strength of the MTM (mid tweeter mid) driver configuration is great midrange performance. The reality is that any audiophile or high end speaker I've ever listened to has always had good or outstanding midrange and that's a characteristic I expect from them. Now if I were listening to say some low budget department store brand speaker, I'd expect the mids to be more subdued with bright highs and muddy bass (if there is any bass to be found). From what I've heard recently, it seems that many speaker companies are coming out with speakers that have an emphasis on midrange clarity. When I compare my 12 year old Paradigm Monitor 7 speakers which features a standard 1" tweeter on top with 2 6.5" woofers under it to their new Monitor 9 V6 that has 4 drivers (from top to bottom of 1" tweeter on top, 1 6.5" midrange and 2 6.5" woofers), I noticed the midrange clarity so much improved on the current Monitor 9s. I'll admit it takes a little getting used to and I wasn't sure if I liked that initially when I first heard the TST3s, but I think once you get used to it that you'll end up really liking it. I say give them a chance since you do have the 30-day trial period.

Funny how you said they sound like AM Radio. They shouldn't sound like that, which leads me to wonder if there are other issues with the pair you got. You may have gotten a set with defective crossovers. If that's the case, TSC will have no problems shipping you another set. I suggest you give their customer service a call. Don't email them as it tends to take them forever to reply to email. Just call the customer service number that have listed on their website and tell them your problem.

[djreef]

Check your connections - sounds like you've got one hooked up out of phase.

DJ

[lsiberian]

Your first post is bashing a speaker brand that most find good. Hmmmm:rolleyes:

I wonder if you really do own these speakers. :confused:

If you don't like them return them. IF you dont' own them and are a troll leave us be.

[bandphan]

pics please:)

[Matt34]

Let's give him a chance before we put his feet to the fire guys. He may just have a defective pair or his room is causing him the issues.

We do need more info and pics would actually help so we can see where they are positioned in the room.

[The Master Geek]

Not meaning to hi-jack the thread but he posted this same thing on tSC's forums in my thread. Does anyone know what the difference is between the TST2 and the TST3? I know the TST2 has a 10" paper woofer and the TST3 has 2 8" aluminum woofers but is there any other difference? Would that really make an improvement in the speaker for the price difference? Especially if I bought a T300 to go with them? Has anyone heard both of these speakers? I've only heard good things about these speakers so it suprises me to see the OP trashing them so badly. It seems like it must be a setup issue or something defective on the speaker. If not, why not send them back?

[ace0001a]

Your first post is bashing a speaker brand that most find good. Hmmmm:rolleyes:

I wonder if you really do own these speakers. :confused:

If you don't like them return them. IF you dont' own them and are a troll leave us be.

To give the guy the benefit of the doubt, it could be simply a case of having high expectations (due to many people's praises of TSC) coupled with him simply having knee-jerk reaction (no offense on that) to it. But I can't help but think he may have simply recieved a defective set of towers with bad crossovers. The speakers should not sound like AM Radio.

Not meaning to hi-jack the thread but he posted this same thing on tSC's forums in my thread. Does anyone know what the difference is between the TST2 and the TST3? I know the TST2 has a 10" paper woofer and the TST3 has 2 8" aluminum woofers but is there any other difference? Would that really make an improvement in the speaker for the price difference? Especially if I bought a T300 to go with them? Has anyone heard both of these speakers? I've only heard good things about these speakers so it suprises me to see the OP trashing them so badly. It seems like it must be a setup issue or something defective on the speaker. If not, why not send them back?

My guess is that the TST3s having 2 8" aluminum woofers as opposed to a single 10" paper along with probably a different crossover constitutes the higher price. The woofer sizes are about the same with 8" and 10", but you've got 2 instead of 1 for the T3 as well as them being aluminum. The cabinet is slightly taller due to this fact and so that's different. Sonically, one would think that the T2 and T3 sound the same with the exception of the bass being deeper in the T3. With that said, I'm thinking that the crossover in the T3 is more complex than the one in the T2.

[markw]

A friend recently picked up a pair of TSC towers, with I think the dual 8" subs and, IMNSHO, I expected a bit more than I heard. Let's just say I found their response tilted towards the high end.

But, to make one's first post a rant against a respected brand does open one up to question.

[lsiberian]

Greetings All,

We just received delivery of some new TST3 tower speakers from the speaker company.

They are hooked up to a Denon avr 1909 receiver and we have no sub.

Let me tell you I am very disappointed with these speakers. I understand that speakers *may* need some break in time, but these speakers are so MIDRANGE-Y, its painful.

I ran the Audysey setup multiple times while changeing the mic location a bit each time. I've tried tweeking the EQ settings on the receiver too, but I can't seem to dial in these speakers.

I even tried changing speaker placement, toe-in and out.

These things sound like two big powerful AM radios.

They have two 8 inch woofers, two mids and one tweeter. I'm thinking that I'm not buying into the side firing woofer baloney that speaker manufacturers are peddliing.

Am I off my rocker or what? Has anyone else tried these? I'm thinking of sending these back post-haste!!

All comments are welcome!

Thanks.

I've decided to give you the benefit on this one, but what do you really expect these aren't hifi speakers they are midfi at best. So there will be compromises as with almost any speaker on the market. In fact no perfect speaker is perfect. This is why they have an evaluation period. Also remember room and placement play a major role in sound.

Try moving them closer to the wall to improve low end response.

If you don't like them. Ship them back and try something else.

Maybe your picky like most of us. If so welcome to AH and to standards.

Beta's have a weaker midrange, but good highs and lows. I suggest you try a pair of them.

[R-Carpenter]

Your first post is bashing a speaker brand that most find good. Hmmmm:rolleyes:

I wonder if you really do own these speakers. :confused:

If you don't like them return them. IF you dont' own them and are a troll leave us be.

He just doesn't like the speaker. We are entitled to bash as well as we are entitled to rave about the product. Did the reviewer (here on Audioholics) found anything wrong with the sound of this speakers or it was all peachy? Was the TSC add on the same web page?
High expectation ehhhh....

[ace0001a]

He just doesn't like the speaker. We are entitled to bash as well as we are entitled to rave about the product. Did the reviewer (here on Audioholics) found anything wrong with the sound of this speakers or it was all peachy? Was the TSC add on the same web page?
High expectation ehhhh....

I don't think you could fault the reviews here. Sure you can be the conspiracy theory type and argue either way--the OP is a brand basher or the positive review was motivated by the company advertising, but the simple truth may go more along the lines of your first sentence. The OP may simply not like the sound of the TST3 towers. When it comes to audio, it can be the most fickle thing to pinpoint from person to person. I have stated numerous times that I've found the overall sound of TSC's speakers to be of high quality, but that my preference leans more towards what the Canadian brands (Paradigm, PSB, etc.) sound like. Does that mean I wouldn't care to own TSC speakers? No, not at all as I tend to look at things from many perspectives. For the money I don't think you can go wrong with them and if I were in a position where my budget was more limited that it is now that I would seriously consider buying and keeping TSC speakers. I also think that if you're used to the bland fidelity sound of cheap boxy speakers that cost less than $200 often found at the department stores that any of TSCs speakers should surely impress you...but then again you may actually like that type of bland fidelity sound. That just goes to show you how fickle audio tastes can be.

I still think that the OP may have received a defective pair with bad crossovers. I suggested contacting TSC customer service and I am sure he is working with them to see if the issue can be resolved as we speak.

[m_vanmeter]

"bmwr75"
did you setup your Denon receiver for 2 "large" speakers ? I don't know what the default menu pick is on a Denon, but you may not be sending the full frequency feed to them if the receiver crossover is still enabled.

[bandphan]

IMO if the OP doesnt like them, return them as per their return policy. Bashing speakers on multiple websites and not following up with his original posts is a little suspect.:)

[Rickster71]

I somehow missed this thread.

I’ve got a pair of these in a spare room upstairs (model w/ two 8” woofers), and have had Markw over to give a listen.
His assessment is right on the money.

While they do image very well; so well in fact, I keep putting my ear to the center channel thinking it’s on. The bass is on the thin side. I haven’t had a chance to move them around a little; to see if that made a diff.
FWIW - (I did notice that things got better at high volumes though.)

Also, if I had to do it over, I’d get TSC 6.5 bookshelf with a sub.
The 6.5” bookshelf goes on sale once in a while, and is a steal at $129 a pair.

[bmwr75]

Whoa! sorry for the lack or timeliness on the reply!! E-gad!

I do apologize on the rant, and I did apologize to TSC as well.

I did speak with them and they suggested that I allow the drivers to break in a bit before I make a final decision.

As for the questions about whether or not I really own them --????? I'm a 43 year old guy, not some kid. Should I send a picture of my bald spot to prove :)

Also, my listening taste does not gravitate towards MIDRANGE-Y speakers. Just as most of you look upon speakers that have strong mids as the clear definition of a true hi-fi speaker, I just don't share that opinion.

I like SMOOTH sounding speakers. Any guitar players here? Anybody ever play through a Twin Reverb? Very midrange-y and harsh at times. That's what I'm talking about!!

Perhaps I would have been served better if I got a pair of bookshelf speakers and a sub.

[bmwr75]

Bland Fidelity??

Now I'm insulted!! :-)

One trend I have noticed in listening to modern speakers is that most of them boost the mids way too much. Perhaps my eardrumes are not progressive enough, but to me, TO ME, that does not sound good and causes me fatigue.

I don't like muddy bass as well, I like tight bass, but I want to HEAR the bass. I like lots of highs, but SMOOTH highs, got it?

At times I do like to crank thisngs up, but loudness is not the thing i look for most.

[bmwr75]

Somethign else I find frustrating is the lack of stereo brick and mortar stores. We don't ahve much in the Boston area anymore. Tweeter has gone bankrupt, Cambridge soundworks has closed it retail stores. Tech HiFi has been closed for years. Bose - don't think so. That leaves us with Magnolia (best buy).

I did like a pair of self powered Definitives that I heard there -- but they were pricey.

[bandphan]

if you don't like them now, time isnt gonna change that. State a budget and allow others to give you items to demo, as that is the process of buying speakers...Listen to them and if you like them note it or keep them and move to the next. What speakers did you have before? What are your expectations and goals?

[ace0001a]

I'm in my mid 30's myself and trust me as I've listened to enough of the style of speaker the OP is talking about growing up. Sorry to say, but I don't see that as being "smooth" and is why I call it bland fidelity. That type of sound to me was fine in the 80's, but just doesn't wow me these days. I happen to like midrange clarity and having that is what I'd call smooth. I've listened to Definitive Technology BP10 towers before and I like their sound, albeit they can be a bit too bassy. I can see how too much mids and highs can get fatiguing to listen too, but again I also believe you can give yourself time to get used to something. Although no knock on the OP's age, I'm not sure being past 40 how easy that can be to get used to something different. I do think it's too bad that to old hifi stereo stores have gone the way of the dodo, but there should be still small specialty home audio places in every city that lets you listen to speakers. Mind you the obvious is that the speakers never sound the same at home as they do the showroom and so that's why I really like the concept of internet direct companies that let you audition the speakers exactly where you're going to use them. You can argue that's more of a hassle, but since sound fidelity is such a fickle thing from person to person that it only makes sense to be able to audition the speakers at home. I do think a speaker sounds better after you use it for a while. My existing set, I remember them being more harsh when I first got them and over time they smoothed out (either that or I got used to them). Personally, I really do think TSC has done a great job in putting out a high performance, high quality product at a very affordable price. I still say to use as much of your 30-day trial as you can and see if they smooth out for you. I did initially think that if they sounded like AM Radio that perhaps there's something wrong with their crossovers, but maybe that statement was simply the OP embelishing his description for being too midrange dominant for his tastes. Another thing is maybe the receiver has an effect on the sound more so than one might think. I know there's plenty of discussion about that. While I own and really like Denon receivers, I find that unless you've got one of the high end models that the sound seems to get "thinner" the lower model you go. I used to own a Denon AVR-4800 back in 2001 and that thing was a beast and had some really smooth sound. Later when I "upgraded" to a 3806, I noticed the sound being a hair thinner. Right now I have an AVR-3808ci and it has fantastic sound, but again thin when compared to what my old 4800 sounded like. I had a couple Pioneer Elites (yes I tend to change receivers alot) before that and I remember them having warmer sound. I think the TSC speakers coupled with a mid to lower end Denons privides a thinner sound that could make the midrange clarity of these kids of speakers become harsh. You could argue that, but I certainly think it's possible. I think I read someone owning some TSC towers with a Pioneer receiver and loving the sound. I don't know, maybe it shouldn't make that much of a difference. But again with how sensitive and varied everyone's sound tastes are, I would'nt rule out anything...

[bmwr75]

Yes, sound can be subjective for sure. I did talk to TSC and they stated that I should give more time to allow break-in. Whether the speakers need to break-in or my ears need to get use to the speakers, perhaps there will be an enjoyment convergence somewhere within the month, and maybe not.

Just to re-state - I don't like dark sounding speakers, nor do I like booming bass. There is a *balance* I'm looking for that I cannot describe in words. And that balance includes keeping things even as the volume goes up.

I may have mentioned a reference to a Fender Twin Reverb amp. Many players out there can tell you that it sounds sweet at low volume, but when you turn it up (yes it stays clean) the "shape" of the sound comes way up front and becomes very brassy. This is the best way I can describe what I'm hearing.

Thanks,

J

[bmwr75]

Bandphan,

I'm primarily a music listener, not so much into movies. The surround capabilities are great, don't get me wrong I like it and I can see why people like it.

My personal opinion is that a lot of new speakers are voiced so that they can perform double duty. Surround movie watching and music. Do I want a screening of "The Dark Knight" to sound like a listening session of Black Crowes "Shake your Money Maker" ? Of course not!

Movies are focused on the human voice - midrange - and if most speakers weren't voiced towards this, you wouldn't be able to hear the actors talk.

If put on a recording of Joe Pass' Virtuoso, will these speakers in thier current state sound like his acoutic guitar? Will the sound of his fingers on the fretboard squeak too loud? Should I expect the mids to jump out because that's the way music is supposed to sound in the aughts?

[Patrick_Wolf]

As one reviewer on AH says, if it's good for music then it will be good for movies too. As I think it should be. A good speaker should not be great for one source, poor for another. I guess what I'm saying is, I like accuracy.

[lsiberian]

Yes, sound can be subjective for sure. I did talk to TSC and they stated that I should give more time to allow break-in. Whether the speakers need to break-in or my ears need to get use to the speakers, perhaps there will be an enjoyment convergence somewhere within the month, and maybe not.

Just to re-state - I don't like dark sounding speakers, nor do I like booming bass. There is a *balance* I'm looking for that I cannot describe in words. And that balance includes keeping things even as the volume goes up.

I may have mentioned a reference to a Fender Twin Reverb amp. Many players out there can tell you that it sounds sweet at low volume, but when you turn it up (yes it stays clean) the "shape" of the sound comes way up front and becomes very brassy. This is the best way I can describe what I'm hearing.

Thanks,

J

I would try moving them closer to the wall if possible. Bad bass is usually helped by getting reinforcment from the wall. I put my speakers directly on the wall to get that wide bass throughout the room.

But if placement doesn't help it's time to ship them back don't wait around for the free trial to expire. If your doing stereo listening I suggest you look into the behringer 2030p monitors. They make a nice budget stereo pair. You will need a sub for them, but a Dayton gives a nice beat for 150.

As far as the accusations go. We get Trolls here often so we are always a little jumpy.

[griffinconst]

Yeah, don't take it personally....just make with the pictures.:D:D

[ace0001a]

I would say it's a necessity for speaker company to make speakers that sounds good in general and which is presumed to be in both music and movies. So you can't really fault them for that since home audio these days is more than just music. With that said, I honestly believe that if it sounds good for music, it should sound good for movies. That's also what the home audio specialty store guys tell you these days too. But I will say that to my ears, the sound characteristics that speaker companies build their speakers to these days is a little different than what I heard 10 years ago. As I mentioned before in listening to my favorite company's offerings (Paradigm), that even their latest speakers exhibit sound characterstics with what I would describe as an improved midrange clarity. When listening to the TSC TST3s, I got a very similar impression too. So I just think imaging and midrange clarity is what many speaker companies have focused on in recent years.

[bmwr75]

Thanks all for the responses. I can certainly understand your wariness due to trolls, so I'm not taking it personally!

It seems I'm leaning towards returning them, though I will give them another week. I'll also check out some of the speaker suggestions you have all made.

And yes, as I get older I do get crankier. If I had a cane, I would have been banging it on the ground and complaining about all these newfangled gadgets!

Bring back the manual slide graphic EQ's and EPI 100v's!!! And yes, I still do sometimes listen to vinyl.

[bmwr75]

So...

I am sending back the TST3's.

Can't say enough good stuff about the company's support, as I spoke personally to a manager there. Nice guy, pleasant and understanding.

These speaks are just not for me.

I've dug out my old EPI 100's and have ordered a woofer foam surround kit for these. There are a couple of good resources out there about what I think are the sound qualities I am looking for.

Check out www.humanspeakers.com and www.directacoustics.com . Humanspeakers made a statement about subwoofers that I find true - he stated that a properly designed speaker does not need a subwoofer to sound good. I agree!!

I was in Magnolia tonight, and there was not one speaker there , not a bookshelf or floorstander that sounded good without a sub.

I don't mean to stoke or rant, just stating my opinion. The only speaks that sounded ok were the DefTech floorstanders with built in powered woofers.

The DefTech bookshelf line all sounded tinny and thin without a sub. What good is that?! It gives new meaning to the term "component" systems. You really are buying your tweeter and midrange separate from your woofer. Sounds like gratuitous profit-mongering to me!!

[griffinconst]

Sorry to hear your speakers didn't grow on you. That's the chance one takes when ordering OL only.
Thanks for the links, we can use all the contacts and info we can get.
You said Magnolia didn't have anything you liked? Did you listen to Monitor Audio? I know my local Magnolia has them or did 6 months ago. Monitor RS8's had nice bass to my ears, nice everything actually. The RS6 seems to be very highly thought of as well.
I also listened to Martin Logan Preface which I liked, when I was in there last.
I'm not tryin to bust your b*lls or anything, I just wandered if you listened to the same ones I did and what you thought.
Also, my comment about the pictures was just that, we love pictures around here..... mmm pictures.

[ace0001a]

Wow, those EP100s look like a blast from the past: http://www.humanspeakers.com/e/epi100.htm

It's too bad the TST3s didn't work out for you. But I do understand we each have our own tastes for sound. What I will say is that I really don't think TSC speakers (particularly the towers) sound good with a Denon receiver. Since TSC speakers in general seem to be optimized for midrange clarity, mating them with a receiver that itself also emphasizes midrange clarity could be overkill. I know because that's what I demoed my TST3s with is my former Denon AVR-3808ci. While I certainly understood what all the rave was about the speakers, I find that the thin sound from my Denon receiver just didn't help the speakers any. The same case was when I was using my old Paradigm Monitor 7s with the Denon too as I remembered the sound to be more full when I used them with a Yamaha or Pioneer receiver.

To me, I think forum member Lord Of The Rings best describes receiver sound here when I asked him what he thought of Onkyo and other brands:

"Ok, How do I found my Onkyo receivers (876 & 805) compared to the warm sound (in general, not the new ICE power design) of Pioneer, or the Mid emphasis and reserved sound of Denon receivers (even bordering on thin, lacking some meat in the lows and also in the highs), to the fuller and cleaner sound from the Yamahas, with that more natural and well balanced sound from across the frequencies, nice lows, very articulate and clear mids, and a quasi sweet high end (still talking about Yamaha here in general). My Marantz is warm too, with a full sound and more relaxed compared to any other receiver. The sound is musical, inviting anf float very nicely, with a nice and wide soundstage and some nice depth too. I also found the Yamaha adds height too (must be those two front presence speakers ). Ok, let's not get lost here, I said that I will be very brief. Now, my Onkyos? The sound is clear, clean, neutral, punchy (so is the Yamaha for the punch), hard to describe at times, maybe because of that type of neutrality, where no specific frequencies are overemphasised. For me, it sounds right, powerful, dynamic and very pleasant with good articulation but lacking that last minute resolution. Maybe the Yamaha here is the winner for resolution that is natural. But the Denon and Marantz also have a decent dose of resolution. I must admit though, that to judge resolutioin properly, like any other audio attributes, a big influence comes from the recordings. But I'm just shooting here my overall impressions."

I've have since sold my Denon AVR-3808ci and got a deal on a Pioneer Elite SC-07 and I am so glad I did so. The output of my Paradigms are now again warm, smooth and full sound that the Pioneer amps so wonderfully produce that to me just wasn't there with the Denon. LOTR hit the nail on the head when he said "the Mid emphasis and reserved sound of Denon receivers (even bordering on thin, lacking some meat in the lows and also in the highs)". The only Denon I've owned that I really loved the sound of was the AVR-4800. Sadly, I think the only model you can get that kind of sound from now is with a 5000 series and I just don't have the money for one of those. I don't think I'll be going back to Denon anytime soon.

With all that said, I do think the TSC towers would sound really good when mated with the right receiver. The TST3s probably arguably should have deep bass. I think the only speakers I that I've heard that I think sounds fairly good with a Denon receiver are Definitive Technology BP Towers. My buddy has BP10Bs and they get pretty low (they're rated down to 20hz). Still, I don't like the idea of having to find specific speakers to sound good for a receiver. I'm a compulsive upgrader and I've gone through around 8 receivers in the past 10 years. The brand of receivers to me that have good overall sound characteristics that sound good with most speakers are Yamaha and Pioneer in my experience. Anyway, I recommend that you consider changing receivers as well to find that full "smooth" sound that you're looking for with modern speakers.

[lsiberian]

Wow, those EP100s look like a blast from the past: http://www.humanspeakers.com/e/epi100.htm

It's too bad the TST3s didn't work out for you. But I do understand we each have our own tastes for sound. What I will say is that I really don't think TSC speakers (particularly the towers) sound good with a Denon receiver. Since TSC speakers in general seem to be optimized for midrange clarity, mating them with a receiver that itself also emphasizes midrange clarity could be overkill. I know because that's what I demoed my TST3s with is my former Denon AVR-3808ci. While I certainly understood what all the rave was about the speakers, I find that the thin sound from my Denon receiver just didn't help the speakers any. The same case was when I was using my old Paradigm Monitor 7s with the Denon too as I remembered the sound to be more full when I used them with a Yamaha or Pioneer receiver.

To me, I think forum member Lord Of The Rings best describes receiver sound here when I asked him what he thought of Onkyo and other brands:

"Ok, How do I found my Onkyo receivers (876 & 805) compared to the warm sound (in general, not the new ICE power design) of Pioneer, or the Mid emphasis and reserved sound of Denon receivers (even bordering on thin, lacking some meat in the lows and also in the highs), to the fuller and cleaner sound from the Yamahas, with that more natural and well balanced sound from across the frequencies, nice lows, very articulate and clear mids, and a quasi sweet high end (still talking about Yamaha here in general). My Marantz is warm too, with a full sound and more relaxed compared to any other receiver. The sound is musical, inviting anf float very nicely, with a nice and wide soundstage and some nice depth too. I also found the Yamaha adds height too (must be those two front presence speakers ). Ok, let's not get lost here, I said that I will be very brief. Now, my Onkyos? The sound is clear, clean, neutral, punchy (so is the Yamaha for the punch), hard to describe at times, maybe because of that type of neutrality, where no specific frequencies are overemphasised. For me, it sounds right, powerful, dynamic and very pleasant with good articulation but lacking that last minute resolution. Maybe the Yamaha here is the winner for resolution that is natural. But the Denon and Marantz also have a decent dose of resolution. I must admit though, that to judge resolutioin properly, like any other audio attributes, a big influence comes from the recordings. But I'm just shooting here my overall impressions."

I've have since sold my Denon AVR-3808ci and got a deal on a Pioneer Elite SC-07 and I am so glad I did so. The output of my Paradigms are now again warm, smooth and full sound that the Pioneer amps so wonderfully produce that to me just wasn't there with the Denon. LOTR hit the nail on the head when he said "the Mid emphasis and reserved sound of Denon receivers (even bordering on thin, lacking some meat in the lows and also in the highs)". The only Denon I've owned that I really loved the sound of was the AVR-4800. Sadly, I think the only model you can get that kind of sound from now is with a 5000 series and I just don't have the money for one of those. I don't think I'll be going back to Denon anytime soon.

With all that said, I do think the TSC towers would sound really good when mated with the right receiver. The TST3s probably arguably should have deep bass. I think the only speakers I that I've heard that I think sounds fairly good with a Denon receiver are Definitive Technology BP Towers. My buddy has BP10Bs and they get pretty low (they're rated down to 20hz). Still, I don't like the idea of having to find specific speakers to sound good for a receiver. I'm a compulsive upgrader and I've gone through around 8 receivers in the past 10 years. The brand of receivers to me that have good overall sound characteristics that sound good with most speakers are Yamaha and Pioneer in my experience. Anyway, I recommend that you consider changing receivers as well to find that full "smooth" sound that you're looking for with modern speakers.

Are you going to give us your FR graphs to prove these statements?

These are a some very tall claims, but I've found most of these ideas to be mostly psychological. I suggest not switching reciever brands for a sound. Solid State amps are demonstrated to be indiscernable in DBT by skeptics and believers. Tube amps can have audible distortion. But many amps are made by the same company anyway. Rebranding is very common in electronics. That's why a Vizio and Emerson TV are the same LCD.:)

Put your efforts into the speakers.

I think we may need to talk about a budget jump, but look for a revel dealer and listen to the concerta series. These are rebranded Infinity Beta's according to the guy who designed the Beta series.

Also check out the KEF iQ series of speakers.

[bmwr75]

Change receivers! O man - I don't think I could stomach that grief. It took me too much time to get to know the menus on this one. Here's my old codger rant: I sure miss the separate Bass and Treble knobs and tha ability to pipe outputs through the Tape Monitor to a graphic eq. I know that's just not possible in a budget receiver nowadays, but I can dream.

I never listened to the Yamaha receivers - perhaps I should have given them a try. In any case, my lady would kill me if I mentioned that we should look at another receiver. She is in agreement about the speaker issue, but I think mentioning a new receiver, espescially after we bought this one a few months ago, would push 'er over the edge!!

[bmwr75]

Monitor Audio RS8? Doesn't ring a bell - I don't think I saw them there .. Next time I'm in there I'll look for them though -- thanks.

[allargon]

So...

I am sending back the TST3's.

Can't say enough good stuff about the company's support, as I spoke personally to a manager there. Nice guy, pleasant and understanding.

These speaks are just not for me.

I've dug out my old EPI 100's and have ordered a woofer foam surround kit for these. There are a couple of good resources out there about what I think are the sound qualities I am looking for.

Check out www.humanspeakers.com and www.directacoustics.com . Humanspeakers made a statement about subwoofers that I find true - he stated that a properly designed speaker does not need a subwoofer to sound good. I agree!!

I was in Magnolia tonight, and there was not one speaker there , not a bookshelf or floorstander that sounded good without a sub.

I don't mean to stoke or rant, just stating my opinion. The only speaks that sounded ok were the DefTech floorstanders with built in powered woofers.

The DefTech bookshelf line all sounded tinny and thin without a sub. What good is that?! It gives new meaning to the term "component" systems. You really are buying your tweeter and midrange separate from your woofer. Sounds like gratuitous profit-mongering to me!!

You seem to really like bass and notice midrange.

How long ago did Human make that statement? Nowadays with great rooms open to the 2nd floor and Blu-Ray tracks w/ 16Hz booms (Batman Begins and Transformers), that whole floorstanders w/ no subs argument tends to bottom out. (Pun intended!)

If I were looking at speakers for home theater I would almost care less about how much bass they had and really look at the midrange and higher frequencies. IMHO, a good sub will handle the lower frequencies for both HT and music quite well. But, that's just MHO.

Are you more of a two channel guy? There's nothing wrong w/ that. Moreover, I'm glad you found speakers you like--which is really what it's all about.

[agarwalro]

BMWR75/ J...,

The topic has meandered a bunch, but I was not able to discern if you did the basic checks to ensure the setup is correct. To unequivocally inform us can you confirm and respond to these...

1) There is no apparant manufacturing defect? (something like, playing bass heavy material, like techno, still produces no movement in the woofers, etc).
1) Is your wiring correct, no out of phase connections (Running Audessy would have caught this, but still...)
2) In the 1909, the speakers are not set to small (Again with Audessy, it should have automatically set them to Large, but still...)
3) (if using analog connections) Your source does not do bass management or is turned off (a non issue if you are using optical or coax)
5) Try to determine if your listening position is not in a room null arrising from standing waves.

I highly suspect that the last one is the culpret and it can be easily be determined by ear. Sinply move around in the room, if the bass response seems to be better at certain location when compared to the listening position, you have your culpret.

Of course, all that said, it could simply be that the speakers are not the ones for you...

[ace0001a]

Are you going to give us your FR graphs to prove these statements?

These are a some very tall claims, but I've found most of these ideas to be mostly psychological. I suggest not switching reciever brands for a sound. Solid State amps are demonstrated to be indiscernable in DBT by skeptics and believers. Tube amps can have audible distortion. But many amps are made by the same company anyway. Rebranding is very common in electronics. That's why a Vizio and Emerson TV are the same LCD.:)

Put your efforts into the speakers.

I think we may need to talk about a budget jump, but look for a revel dealer and listen to the concerta series. These are rebranded Infinity Beta's according to the guy who designed the Beta series.

Also check out the KEF iQ series of speakers.

Just like LOTR, none of what I said is based off of any measuring equipment other than my ears. It is fine that your opinion leads your beliefs that anyone who experiences such things has it related to being psychological. Now if this debate were about say speaker wire, I can see where that arguement would apply. But having owned so many receivers through the years (like LOTR), I know my ears. And just like speakers, receivers, their circuitry, programming and amps do effect the characteristic of sound. Even if you put in the arguement that all hifidelity equipment is the same, the way the manufacturer implements it will vary in the performance. You can can say that an Emerson and a Vizio is the same LCD or Plasma panel, but whoever does a better job in the electronics and programming of its operation internal software will yield a better performing product. Anyway, I'm not here to debate and you can believe what you want to believe. I'm not here to disrespect anyone point of view. But simply put, I only know what my ears tell me. To me, the difference in performance between the Denon AVR-3808ci and my Pioneer Elite SC-07 is very noticeable. It's not day and night (more like early morning to afternoon), but it's very noticeable to me.

[bandphan]

Just like LOTR, none of what I said is based off of any measuring equipment other than my ears. It is fine that your opinion leads your beliefs that anyone who experiences such things has it related to being psychological. Now if this debate were about say speaker wire, I can see where that arguement would apply. But having owned so many receivers through the years (like LOTR), I know my ears. And just like speakers, receivers, their circuitry, programming and amps do effect the characteristic of sound. Even if you put in the arguement that all hifidelity equipment is the same, the way the manufacturer implements it will vary in the performance. You can can say that an Emerson and a Vizio is the same LCD or Plasma panel, but whoever does a better job in the electronics and programming of its operation internal software will yield a better performing product. Anyway, I'm not here to debate and you can believe what you want to believe. I'm not here to disrespect anyone point of view. But simply put, I only know what my ears tell me. To me, the difference in performance between the Denon AVR-3808ci and my Pioneer Elite SC-07 is very noticeable. It's not day and night (more like early morning to afternoon), but it's very noticeable to me.
FYIY i wouldnt be using LOTR as my reference point;)

[ace0001a]

FYIY i wouldnt be using LOTR as my reference point;)

I'm not going to get into whatever you guys have going on. But honestly I did find his description of Denon receiver sound to be almost exact to how I feel about it and that's why I used what he said as reference.

[R-Carpenter]

Are you going to give us your FR graphs to prove these statements?


Nice one! Sweet and to the point!:D:D:D