720 or 1080 for a large room ??

[XEagleDriver]

Upgrading a TV in a 20' x 20' family room with the following limitations:
1) Built in cabinet over a fireplace limits screen size to max of 37" diagonal widescreen. (i.e. less than 25" tall with stand) :(
2) Room has significant ambient lighting which can not be mitigated due to WAF.
3) Viewing distance varies from 12 to 16 feet and covers about 120 degrees side to side.
4) Our primary movie viewing room is separate, this room is for watching sports, general TV. It does have an Oppo 980H for the occassional SD DVD.

Pretty settled on LCD technology, and leaning towards either a Panasonic TC-L37X1 (720P, ~$700) or the Panasonic TC-L37S1 (1080, ~$800) due to good reviews and customer service track record regarding my movie room plasma.

Price differential is only about $100, but would there be any benefit to spending additional cash to jump from a 720 to a 1080 set at these viewing distances/conditions?

Any recommendations on 37" sets I should consider other than the two Pannys listed above?

Thanks in advance, :D
XEagleDriver

[The Dukester]

You will not notice any difference between 720 and 1080 with that screen size and that viewing distance. At 37" you are pretty limited nowadays to LCD anyway. There are one or two plasmas still available but they are hard to find. Check the picture quality at your distance on the units you are looking at in person with the 120 degree viewing angle. LCDs do not typically have a wide viewing angle.

[XEagleDriver]

Dukester,

Thanks, that is what I was expecting. Panny claims a 178 degree viewing angle for both sets, not sure how that will translate in real world viewing, but is part of the reason I am leaning toward's them for this application.

FWIW the 720 set these replaced, the TC-LZ85, was reviewed to have very good viewing angle capability.

XEagleDriver

[nibhaz]

As Dukester has already stated, with your combination of screen size and viewing distance there would be no discernable difference between the 720 and 1080 display in regards to resolution.

Now if you look closely at the specs of these two models you’ll find that that Panasonic is claiming the 1080p set has a higher contrast ratio, which may lead the 1080p display to having a better overall picture. The difference between the two units is pretty small so the differences in performance may be imperceptible.

Go check them out and view them from the same distance that you plan on using them in your home. Ask the sales person if you or they can get into the setup menus to ensure that they are both configured the same.

[MUDSHARK]

My living room is nearly as large and slightly further from the screen and I could not tell a difference in a 50 inch Plasma and hence went the 720P route.

Granted I am not a video person and have older eyes than most of you. Having the audio disease is enough for one person.

[XEagleDriver]

Thanks to all for your time and advice.

Sounds like the 720 is the better route for my situation and more cost effective (bonus!).

My local area is a bit limited on brick & mortar retailers; HH Gregg carries the 1080 Panny and BB the 720 set. I will bring a tape measure and one of my SD DVDs and see if they can/will hook up a decent player (the same model if I get lucky).

Won't allow a side-by-side comparison, and the flourescent lighting in both cases will probably be real bad. But at least, I can get a general idea on PQ vs distance, and verify acceptable off-axis viewing using the same material (hopefully).

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

[lsiberian]

Thanks to all for your time and advice.

Sounds like the 720 is the better route for my situation and more cost effective (bonus!).

My local area is a bit limited on brick & mortar retailers; HH Gregg carries the 1080 Panny and BB the 720 set. I will bring a tape measure and one of my SD DVDs and see if they can/will hook up a decent player (the same model if I get lucky).

Won't allow a side-by-side comparison, and the flourescent lighting in both cases will probably be real bad. But at least, I can get a general idea on PQ vs distance, and verify acceptable off-axis viewing using the same material (hopefully).

Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Don't judge your set that way. You will be better off calibrating it with Digital Video Essentials. Remember to get the proper lighting for a LCD screen. You must have the right ambient lighting or the picture will stink.

I suggest you go with a highly reliable brands. Historically IME, Toshiba, Sony, Panasonic all make excellent TV's. While Magnavox, Sharp, RCA, and most knock-offs make less reliable tvs. Usually you get a good one either way. But I would just get a Toshiba, Sony or Panny. Others may be cheaper now, but I've never had a sony die on me. Though that was the days of the CRTs. Maggies had some real duds with the exception of my beloved 13". I cry for you I can't see living with a so many compromises. Do you at least get an Audio Cave?

[XEagleDriver]

Don't judge your set that way. You will be better off calibrating it with Digital Video Essentials. Remember to get the proper lighting for a LCD screen. You must have the right ambient lighting or the picture will stink.

Thanks, I have used AVIA II for my plasma and it helped a lot.

I suggest you go with a highly reliable brands. Historically IME, Toshiba, Sony, Panasonic all make excellent TV's. While Magnavox, Sharp, RCA, and most knock-offs make less reliable tvs. Usually you get a good one either way. But I would just get a Toshiba, Sony or Panny. Others may be cheaper now, but I've never had a sony die on me.

Thanks again, I will stick with those three brands.

I cry for you I can't see living with a so many compromises. Do you at least get an Audio Cave?

Fortunately yes, :) this project is just providing better capability in a secondary family room. This way I can listen to music or watch a flick in my HT/listening room while others view TV. Pictures of the main room are at:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49306&highlight=XEagleDriver&page=2


Cheers,
XEagleDriver

[lsiberian]

Thanks, I have used AVIA II for my plasma and it helped a lot.



Thanks again, I will stick with those three brands.



Fortunately yes, :) this project is just providing better capability in a secondary family room. This way I can listen to music or watch a flick in my HT/listening room while others view TV. Pictures of the main room are at:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49306&highlight=XEagleDriver&page=2


Cheers,
XEagleDriver

Good to know. Then let her have her fun.

[XEagleDriver]

FWIW: Went to BB and HH Gregg to put eyes on the two Pannys.

Local BB did not carry the 720 Panny, but did have a side-by-side of two other 37" TVs, one a 720 and one a 1080. Not interested in buying the manufacturer (LG), but I was able to confirm that at my viewing distances (10-14'), 1080 provided no discernible improvement.

Local HH Gregg did carry the 1080 Panny and I was able to verify that at large viewing angles (+/- 60 degrees off of perpendicular to the screen) the picture was much better than other manufacturers--the others turned whites to light browns at large viewing angles, Panny stayed white.

XEagleDriver

[jostenmeat]

As noted here, LCD is really your only choice at 37" or smaller.

Also noted here is that there is more to it than 720 vs 1080. While 1080 is useless in so many scenarios, the latter models are often recommended for better video processing, contrast, and features.

When helping my brother shop for a plasma earlier this year, I stood far away enough from some displays where I knew 1080 was a moot point. Yet, the video quality differences were pretty easy to discern (as I'm sure you've been seeing recently). Even between the 80u and 800u is it pretty easy, IMO. My brother got the cheaper one.

TBH, I haven't seen many, but I've never yet been impressed with Pana's LCDs. Ok, I'm actually never that impressed with LCDs in general, but the Sony's and Samsung's always looked at least a notch better.

I love Pana product as well is what I'm trying to say, but in this case I would broaden the choice of candidates. Good luck.

[bandphan]

Just a note, Mitsus 40" 148 series lcd is exactly 25" with the stand

http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/LT40148_specsheet.pdf

[The Dukester]

A tip for you if you plan on buying at HH Gregg is to shop around, even online and offer them less than what they are asking. They had a 42" Panny on sale at Christmas (720p) for 799. I offered them 699 for the 1080p and got it for 729. They have different buying programs (incentives, discounts, etc) going on different sets at different times. You never know what kind of deal you can get. They would not budge on the 720p set:) As long as you offer them a reasonable amount and can show where you can get it at that price they will listen. Might not match it, but then again, might.;) "Ye have not because ye ask not"
Good luck and enjoy your new display!

[XEagleDriver]

Great idea, spurred me to print prices from various online dealers to help get a fair deal!

Thanks,
XEagleDriver

[CraigV]

I have a 50” Panasonic plasma that’s 720P and I’ve never felt I was missing anything. I sit about 3 meters away, but even at 2 meters it still looks great.

[j_garcia]

I sit 9' from a 720p/1080i 34" display and it looks fine. At 16' it still looks fine, but you will definitely be losing detail at that point, but for casual viewing I don't see it as being a problem. I'd still go 1080p, whether you truly benefit from it now or not unless it was going to save you a LOT of money.

[Warpdrv]

Don't be afraid to buy online.....

Cleveland Plasma has a really really solid reputation, and can be verified by hundreds of people on the AVSforum Plasma threads and is a forum sponsor there....

https://clevelandplasma.com/store/plasma_tv_s/panasonic

They have fantastic service, and you will get more for your money from them then at any BB or retail store...

They also sell MACK warranty if you need one, though Panasonics are pretty dang reliable...

[rekced]

Upgrading a TV in a 20' x 20' family room with the following limitations:
1) Built in cabinet over a fireplace limits screen size to max of 37" diagonal widescreen. (i.e. less than 25" tall with stand) :(
2) Room has significant ambient lighting which can not be mitigated due to WAF.
3) Viewing distance varies from 12 to 16 feet and covers about 120 degrees side to side.
4) Our primary movie viewing room is separate, this room is for watching sports, general TV. It does have an Oppo 980H for the occassional SD DVD.

Pretty settled on LCD technology, and leaning towards either a Panasonic TC-L37X1 (720P, ~$700) or the Panasonic TC-L37S1 (1080, ~$800) due to good reviews and customer service track record regarding my movie room plasma.

Price differential is only about $100, but would there be any benefit to spending additional cash to jump from a 720 to a 1080 set at these viewing distances/conditions?

Any recommendations on 37" sets I should consider other than the two Pannys listed above?

Thanks in advance, :D
XEagleDriver


Your decision to go with Panasonic is good. They are reliable and have better viewing angle than most (all?) brands because they use a different kind of panel (google search "IPS" LCD technology).

The difference between 1080p and 720 is negligible from the distance you're sitting. As I see it, the main reason to purchase a 1080p display would be if you'll use the TV for a different application in the future that would require more pixel detail (eg computer monitor or sitting less than 5' away).

There could be other advantages to the 1080p model that could merit spending the extra $100, such as the electronics, sound quality, appearance, screen finish, inputs, etc. Rest assured that you're not one of those people passing on an excellent 720p TV in favor of a Vizio for the same price only because it's 1080p. Those people need help in life.

[j_garcia]

As I see it, the main reason to purchase a 1080p display would be if you'll use the TV for a different application in the future that would require more pixel detail (eg computer monitor or sitting less than 5' away).

Huh? Not sure where you got that but I don't know a single person who sits less than 5' from their display, and the difference between 720p and 1080p at about 10' is quite apparent. At 16' I'd say you would still notice a difference, though the fine detail will obviously be less apparent.

[croseiv]

In today's market, I'd go with 1080p. If I were buying, that's what I'd get. It only makes sense now. Eventually 1080p will be suplanted as well. So far I'm quite happy with my 720p set which is nearly 3 years old now as I sit at a distance of 11 feet from the display.

Was over at best buy last week, looking at the latest LCDs. Still prefer plasma, honestly, it's a shame it's going away. 1080 p lost it's definition advantage IMO at 10 ft looking at 50" displays.

[rekced]

Huh? Not sure where you got that but I don't know a single person who sits less than 5' from their display, and the difference between 720p and 1080p at about 10' is quite apparent. At 16' I'd say you would still notice a difference, though the fine detail will obviously be less apparent.


Cool beans.

"THX recommended viewing distance for a 50" screen is 5.6 ft"

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7329&d=1244354129

[j_garcia]

That's an interesting chart, but what exactly is it based on? Who's measurements and what are the determining factors? I just installed my new 1080p set this weekend and at the same viewing difference the improvement is easily noticeable from anywhere in the room between 720p and 1080p.

[nibhaz]

Here (http://www.carltonbale.com/2006/11/1080p-does-matter/) is the link to the article from which that chart came from. I don’t really think there is anything shady going on here and it is a worth while article.

[rekced]

That's an interesting chart, but what exactly is it based on? Who's measurements and what are the determining factors? I just installed my new 1080p set this weekend and at the same viewing difference the improvement is easily noticeable from anywhere in the room between 720p and 1080p.


That is doubtful, unless you have extremely good vision. What you're most likely seeing is a superior TV with better color definition and less backlight bleed. I have 20/15 vision and I certainly can't see the different between 720p (1366x768 or 1MP) compared to 1080p (2MP) from 10ft on a 37''.

Go into a store and compare two TVs with truly equal technology except for resolution. Make sure they are both on the same picture setting.

[j_garcia]

I'm not the only one who noticed the immediate difference, so no matter what the numbers tell us, I know what I see and so does everyone else in the house and nobody needs excellent vision to see that difference. I went from a HD CRT that had excellent PQ to a fluorescent LCD that does not have blacks that are as good as the CRT. The difference is easily noticeable on the same material.

[mtrycrafts]

I'm not the only one who noticed the immediate difference, so no matter what the numbers tell us, I know what I see and so does everyone else in the house and nobody needs excellent vision to see that difference. I went from a HD CRT that had excellent PQ to a fluorescent LCD that does not have blacks that are as good as the CRT. The difference is easily noticeable on the same material.

The resolution is 4th on the list at that link above of importance for seeing differences, according to ISF. Contrast, Color saturation and something else may be the reason for the differences? And, bias can still be a factor, no?

[j_garcia]

The chart says you would need to be approximately 5ft to see ALL of the benefits. That does not mean you cannot see the benefits at 10ft or that at 6ft you can't see any difference. This new TV does not have contrast anywhere near as good as my CRT did, but it does have clearly finer detail when viewing 1080p material and better color. I don't disagree that on the exact same set, 1080p and 720p would be close at the same distances, but that doesn't mean they would be nearly impossible to identify. There was a "study" recently where they asked random people at CEDIA if they could tell the difference between Apple's 720p HD and true 1080p Blu-ray and 80% chose 1080p (on the same, uncalibrated digital displays).

[rekced]

The chart says you would need to be approximately 5ft to see ALL of the benefits. That does not mean you cannot see the benefits at 10ft or that at 6ft you can't see any difference. This new TV does not have contrast anywhere near as good as my CRT did, but it does have clearly finer detail when viewing 1080p material and better color. I don't disagree that on the exact same set, 1080p and 720p would be close at the same distances, but that doesn't mean they would be nearly impossible to identify. There was a "study" recently where they asked random people at CEDIA if they could tell the difference between Apple's 720p HD and true 1080p Blu-ray and 80% chose 1080p (on the same, uncalibrated digital displays).


Now it comes out that you owned a CRT and though it was 720p. Your CRT was most likely a 1080i native display, which is the same resolution as your 1080p set, only interlaced. The eliminated flicker is probably what you noticed the most. That would be visible from up to 30' or more I suppose.

No, 1080i and 720p are not the same resolutions. You could have been feeding your TV a 720p or 1080p signal, but how the TV may have used that signal is another story. Maybe it was scaling the 720p signal down to 540p then back up to 1080i, or something like that. Who knows. It seems like a lot of those TVs handled 1080i or 480p the best if my memory serves me correctly. The bottom line is that your 1080i CRT doesn't apply to this conversation about two similar LCDs with different progressive scan resolutions. (don't mean to sound condescending if it's coming off that way).

The study you're quoting doesn't mention viewing distance, picture size or whether or not two comparable displays were used.

[j_garcia]

No, it doesn't come across as condescendign. The article said the comparison was run on the same display, not two different ones.

I was feeding the CRT 1080i for Blu-ray and 720p for games on the PS3.

[rekced]

No, it doesn't come across as condescendign. The article said the comparison was run on the same display, not two different ones.

I was feeding the CRT 1080i for Blu-ray and 720p for games on the PS3.


FYI - A lot of blu-ray players have pretty poor quality through the component output. The poor quality I'm referring to has nothing to do with 1080i resolution itself or the component format, both are fine. Try it on your present TV and compare it to 1080i through HDMI. I think you might be surprised.

[j_garcia]

FYI - A lot of blu-ray players have pretty poor quality through the component output. The poor quality I'm referring to has nothing to do with 1080i resolution itself or the component format, both are fine. Try it on your present TV and compare it to 1080i through HDMI. I think you might be surprised.

I was using HDMI for both. I didn't have any complaints about the PQ on my old set at all; that was the reason I kept it for so long. The only thing I was really looking to get with the upgrade was the ability to mount it on the wall. 1080p was just a bonus.

[Nemo128]

How can anyone with a 50" screen sit 5.6' from it? That's just lunacy. My eyes would jump out of my sockets and yell at me if I did that.

[nibhaz]

I bet jostenmeat would if he had to settle for a 50" screen;)

[jostenmeat]

How can anyone with a 50" screen sit 5.6' from it? That's just lunacy. My eyes would jump out of my sockets and yell at me if I did that.

Nemo, a lot of people seem to say this kind of thing. I believe, if what you say is true, that you cannot ever enjoy a movie theater. Even from the back row.

I just saw two movies (and it's been a year or so since I last went). Both movies were in different digital DLP projector theaters.

I saw UP from 1/3 from the front. I saw Terminator from about 3/4.

3/4 back from Terminator was nearly identical in viewing angle to my front row, which is 42 degree viewing angle, or only 4.7 ft from a 50" TV.

UP from 1/3 back was significantly more immersive than my front row. I will guess 4ft from a 50" TV to be similiar. Give or take a couple of inches.

Do your eyes jump out of your sockets and yell at you in the theater?


Now, I am somewhat confused as to what exactly the THX rec of 36 degrees applies to. For many, for a while now, I think people believe it to be the middle row of a theater. However, I've been told by videophiles that 36 degrees is the THX recommendation for the BACK row of a theater.

Therefore, 5.6' from a 50" TV is the back row of a THX spec'd theater.

Just want to put this in perspective for those who think this way.

EDIT: I was going to attach a diagram here that I've posted before, but it appears to have been deleted.

[rekced]

Nemo, a lot of people seem to say this kind of thing. I believe, if what you say is true, that you cannot ever enjoy a movie theater. Even from the back row.

There will always be a group that disagrees with that, considering we are coming out of a 70-80 year period of interlaced televisions that were NOT intended to be used as theater screens. Because of that, people just see the theater as "big" and have rightfully disconnected that from what we see at home. I'd assume that 99% of people buying larger TVs see it as a luxury to have a big screen, for whatever reason. Very few of them ever realize that the same picture could be achieved by sitting closer to a smaller screen. Obviously, the "ideal" size and brightness based on many factors relating to human vision never occurs to most people. One more point: Since most people watch television constantly, they know very well that a theater screen would be too large for watching some crappy reality TV show (are those still popular? I wouldn't know)