Exiting HTIB world, entering REAL world... need help prioritizing!

[colbymartin]

okay, so here's the deal...

over five years ago, the wife and and i purchased our first home theater: a good old fashion onkyo HTIB (*gasp!*) for just over $400... can't remember the specific model off hand... however the receiver does not have any HDMI inputs, (digital optical, yes) and surely it doesn't have the processing goodness for all the new blu-ray codecs... so i don't feel like i'm maximizing the blu-ray potential (i hear the "Duh!" now...)

this system has served us fine over the years, but now that we've upgraded to 42" LCD, and a PS3 for blu-ray, the sound quality has got to step it up too!

so, for the first time, i'm entering the world of home theater, "non-HTIB-style"

after some research, here's what i think i'd like to do:
receiver: yamaha rx-v663, approx $360
front L&R: 2 factory outlet axioim m2's, $266 for pair
center: factory axiom vp100, $230
rear surround: eh, for now, i'll probably just keep the onkyo one's i've got hung, and figure out something else later.

however, i'm in a situation where i'll have some cash flow soon (approx $350), and then maybe some more like 6-9 months down the road.

i'd like to make the most impact now, but i'm not sure which option is best... so i need your help.

option 1) purchase the yamaha receiver now, and use existing onkyo speakers for 6-9 months

option 2) purchase center speaker (axiom vp100) now, put extra $120 towards the later purchase of M2's, and get the receiver down the road

option 3) purchase the two M2's first, put other $90 towards the VP100 for later

so, in conclusion, which option/purchase do you think will make the most immediate/noticable difference? (it's easier to justify to the wife when even she goes, "oh wow, that does sound better!).

receiver?
center speakers?
front L& R speakers?

or am i just approaching this all wrong anyways...

your direction and experience would be much obliged...

colby

[lsiberian]

okay, so here's the deal...

over five years ago, the wife and and i purchased our first home theater: a good old fashion onkyo HTIB (*gasp!*) for just over $400... can't remember the specific model off hand... however the receiver does not have any HDMI inputs, (digital optical, yes) and surely it doesn't have the processing goodness for all the new blu-ray codecs... so i don't feel like i'm maximizing the blu-ray potential (i hear the "Duh!" now...)

this system has served us fine over the years, but now that we've upgraded to 42" LCD, and a PS3 for blu-ray, the sound quality has got to step it up too!

so, for the first time, i'm entering the world of home theater, "non-HTIB-style"

after some research, here's what i think i'd like to do:
receiver: yamaha rx-v663, approx $360
front L&R: 2 factory outlet axioim m2's, $266 for pair
center: factory axiom vp100, $230
rear surround: eh, for now, i'll probably just keep the onkyo one's i've got hung, and figure out something else later.

however, i'm in a situation where i'll have some cash flow soon (approx $350), and then maybe some more like 6-9 months down the road.

i'd like to make the most impact now, but i'm not sure which option is best... so i need your help.

option 1) purchase the yamaha receiver now, and use existing onkyo speakers for 6-9 months

option 2) purchase center speaker (axiom vp100) now, put extra $120 towards the later purchase of M2's, and get the receiver down the road

option 3) purchase the two M2's first, put other $90 towards the VP100 for later

so, in conclusion, which option/purchase do you think will make the most immediate/noticable difference? (it's easier to justify to the wife when even she goes, "oh wow, that does sound better!).

receiver?
center speakers?
front L& R speakers?

or am i just approaching this all wrong anyways...

your direction and experience would be much obliged...

colby

Honestly you are approaching this all wrong.

1. Receivers are not the first thing to pick out or upgrade IMO. In fact I put them last on the list. Even if you have a HTIB receiver. Onkyo makes fairly good amps and receivers so I'm betting it can do the job for mid-fi speakers for now.

If you want to build a home theater it needs to start with research.

1. Find or build(preferably) a subwoofer that meets your requirements. Home theaters are all about LFE. It's the vibration of the room that makes a theater great.

2. Pick out your front sound stage. For this I suggest you find the most neutral speakers possible. Do 2-way speakers not towers. You can get a pair of subs to use for the LFE duty. I suggest maybe a pair of 10" SVS subs to do your lower LFE duty.

3. Build a surround sound field. This is acheived by good speakers/room interaction and the options are many.

4. Add subs

5. Improve the room.

6. Upgrade receiver to a much better option.


Don't buy into gimmicks any longer. Unless you know what something means and have seen it make a difference then don't believe it.

HD audio and many other technologies are gimmickry.

Sound starts with the speakers and room.

Everything else is less important.

Also don't buy any cable that cost more than 10 dollars unless we specifically recommend it for some odd reason.

Many ask for budget. I refuse. You are a smart person and you know what the word save means. If you save well you can buy any speakers you want on most budgets.

[fredk]

I pretty much agree with lsiberian. I would probably get the mains first then a sub, but thats just me. Either way, a good sub is integral to the HT experience.

By the way, if you can, a third M2 would work better for a center. I'm actually using dual M2s for centers in my setup: one above and one below the display.

[colbymartin]

holy smokes... these forums actually work!
i guess i was a bit skeptical, seeing as how it was my first post...
thanks for proving me wrong, fellas (or fel-ladies!?)

i guess it's overwhelming clear that the receiver should be a last (if at all?) priority right now... which is super helpful to me.
i'm very glad i didn't "jump" on any excitement over "finding" a great receiver.

Isiberian: thanks for your perspective... i'm definitely starting with the "research..." i know i don't have a lot to spend, but i'd still rather spend it "right," ya know? it's refreshing to hear someone say that much of the HD audio talk and other technologies are "gimmicky." that's the last thing i want to throw my money at, is all talk and no walk. i'm not sure i can do much about the actual "room," kinda limited to how the wife wants it laid out and decorated... but your "order" of attack is helpful.
and i learned a while ago (still probably a little too late) about not over paying for cables... that one still amazes me!!

i'm also surprised (which i'm sure is no surprise to you all...) to hear how important the sub is to a good system. i would've assumed (well, i guess i HAVE assumed) that most subs are relatively the same and don't add/subtract much to the overall sound quality (within reason... yes, i know there are JUNKY subs out there...). my onkyo setup has a sub that i would consider decent and/or good, of course it's the only one i've ever had, so that doesn't say much...

based on your guys thoughts, i need to put a sub in my priority order before the receiver, yes?

maybe i'll go something like:
1) 2 axiom m2's
2) the vp100 center speaker (or another m2? this is two people now who have suggested doing that instead of the vp100... interesting, i wouldn't have expected that... isn't a "center channel" speaker designed differently.. specifcally for the job of being the center?)
3) a sub (what would be the price range i should be expecting.. knowing the price range i'm going for with the m2's and vp100??)
4) receiver
5) surround speaker replacements

thanks guys... super helpful!

p.s. i know axiom has the 30 day return policy... do you guys know if there are ANY retail places that carry them, so you COULD potentially hear them before you buy?

[John Bailey]

p.s. i know axiom has the 30 day return policy... do you guys know if there are ANY retail places that carry them, so you COULD potentially hear them before you buy?

I don't think you'll find a retail outlet, but if you contact Axiom, they have customers who have volunteered to allow folks to come have a listen in their homes.

John

[Sounds Good]

i dont know if i would call hd radio and things like that gimmick...

more like a plus... the reason i say that is because your not going to find to receivers exactly the same one with hd and one without.... (i just researched receivers) for example... the onkyo 806 compared to the next highest with hd radio ; 876... not only do you get hd radio but there is a ton of other extras... so to say dont pay extra for gimmicks.. i dont think i would say that...

personally, i would say since your whole reason for upgrading is for the extra BD features... i would get the new receiver first so you can enjoy your new tv and blurays... then do like the others have said and save save save and work on your sounds stage....

[ack_bak]

Good advice in here. I think lsiberian touched on a few key points, at least from my perspective.

I would recommend upgrading your front speakers first as well and waiting to buy the receiver. I think the Axiom speakers you mention sound like a great start. And as lsiberian mentioned subwoofers are a huge part of that front soundstage. I would start with one subwoofer and then decide if you want to add a second down the road. Have you heard of Elemental Designs? Honestly, I am not sure how big your room is, but if you picked up one of these:
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=407

It would make a huge difference. I researched subs for over a month and I purchased the one above based on reviews and pricing and it made a hug difference in my room. Trust me, that sub is more than enough to provide bass for a small to medium sized room (my room is approx 15x17). Two would be more than enough for a large room.

I think you would be smart to keep the Onkyo surrounds for now and focus squarely on the front 3 speakers along with your sub. Not sure what your budget it, but I just picked up 3 SVS SCS-01 speakers for my fronts and they sound amazing (total bill came to about $558 shipped for all three speakers). You could save some money and get SBS fronts with an SCS center. Also look into HSU and Emotiva. I think that eD sub with any of the above speakers would be a huge improvement over what you have now, and if you wait until later in the year you can probably score a great receiver for an even better price.

[lsiberian]

i dont know if i would call hd radio and things like that gimmick...

more like a plus... the reason i say that is because your not going to find to receivers exactly the same one with hd and one without.... (i just researched receivers) for example... the onkyo 806 compared to the next highest with hd radio ; 876... not only do you get hd radio but there is a ton of other extras... so to say dont pay extra for gimmicks.. i dont think i would say that...

personally, i would say since your whole reason for upgrading is for the extra BD features... i would get the new receiver first so you can enjoy your new tv and blurays... then do like the others have said and save save save and work on your sounds stage....


I must suggest new glasses.:p We are talking about HD Audio not HD radio.:eek:

Anyway. I can't ever suggest a receiver first approach unless you have no receiver period. Speakers will always make the sound. They are the most important feature a system has.

This guy isn't even in a price bracket for either 800 series Onkyo receiver. And such receivers are wasted on bad speakers.

I know many of us like bells and whistles, but speakers first. Then add the bells and Whistles.

Besides Onkyo doesn't make bad receivers. Even the HTIB probably has a decent 5.1 receiver.

[lsiberian]

Good advice in here. I think lsiberian touched on a few key points, at least from my perspective.

I would recommend upgrading your front speakers first as well and waiting to buy the receiver. I think the Axiom speakers you mention sound like a great start. And as lsiberian mentioned subwoofers are a huge part of that front soundstage. I would start with one subwoofer and then decide if you want to add a second down the road. Have you heard of Elemental Designs? Honestly, I am not sure how big your room is, but if you picked up one of these:
http://www.edesignaudio.com/product_info.php?cPath=2_41&products_id=407

It would make a huge difference. I researched subs for over a month and I purchased the one above based on reviews and pricing and it made a hug difference in my room. Trust me, that sub is more than enough to provide bass for a small to medium sized room (my room is approx 15x17). Two would be more than enough for a large room.

I think you would be smart to keep the Onkyo surrounds for now and focus squarely on the front 3 speakers along with your sub. Not sure what your budget it, but I just picked up 3 SVS SCS-01 speakers for my fronts and they sound amazing (total bill came to about $558 shipped for all three speakers). You could save some money and get SBS fronts with an SCS center. Also look into HSU and Emotiva. I think that eD sub with any of the above speakers would be a huge improvement over what you have now, and if you wait until later in the year you can probably score a great receiver for an even better price.

I agree SVS makes good speakers. The only problem is that he has a wife to consider and the matching surrounds might not meet with her approval.

Also I believe they are ported enclosures. That type of enclosure is more difficult to place IMO.

I suggest you look for sealed options.

[ack_bak]

I agree SVS makes good speakers. The only problem is that he has a wife to consider and the matching surrounds might not meet with her approval.

Also I believe they are ported enclosures. That type of enclosure is more difficult to place IMO.

I suggest you look for sealed options.

SVS speakers are sealed ;) I was talking strictly as front speakers and then using the existing Onkyo surrounds until he can buy something better. I am using RBH 815 in-ceiling speakers as my surrounds and they sound great with the SVS fronts. I know THX recommends trying to match surrounds with your fronts, but I have found that surrounds are more forgiving, and a company like SVS will actually tell you what other speakers work well with theirs as surrounds.

The SVS SBS speakers are much smaller and more WAF friendly than the SCS-01 speakers and I would think they would look and sound great paired with SCS fronts.

[lsiberian]

SVS speakers are sealed ;) I was talking strictly as front speakers and then using the existing Onkyo surrounds until he can buy something better. I am using RBH 815 in-ceiling speakers as my surrounds and they sound great with the SVS fronts. I know THX recommends trying to match surrounds with your fronts, but I have found that surrounds are more forgiving, and a company like SVS will actually tell you what other speakers work well with theirs as surrounds.

The SVS SBS speakers are much smaller and more WAF friendly than the SCS-01 speakers and I would think they would look and sound great paired with SCS fronts.


I hadn't realized they where sealed. Getting a package with a couple of 10 inch subs to use as the LR stands would be nice.

If I where buying I would get 3 KEF iQ1s. Coaxials make me happy.

[just listening]

I've also heard good things about the Elemental Design subs.

The one thing that seems to be forgotten is the quality of the center channel. So much information goes thru that one speakers, yet too many designs let it be just an afterthought. I suggest reading an article I saw in the current issue of AffordableAudio about a large DIY center that fits under the TV.

[lsiberian]

I've also heard good things about the Elemental Design subs.

The one thing that seems to be forgotten is the quality of the center channel. So much information goes thru that one speakers, yet too many designs let it be just an afterthought. I suggest reading an article I saw in the current issue of AffordableAudio about a large DIY center that fits under the TV.

The center channel should be identical to the LR channels for the best sound stage.

Yes many center channel designs are poor.

A good center is usually a coaxial or a tweeter above the midrange(example: Beta 360)

[ack_bak]

I've also heard good things about the Elemental Design subs.

The one thing that seems to be forgotten is the quality of the center channel. So much information goes thru that one speakers, yet too many designs let it be just an afterthought. I suggest reading an article I saw in the current issue of AffordableAudio about a large DIY center that fits under the TV.

You are spot on regarding the center channel. The SVS SCS01 center is a significant improvement over the Polk csi30 center that I previously owned (and it was cheaper) :) Dialogue is much more audible and clean vs the Polk speaker. I would not skimp on a center channel. Many TV shows and movies just have poor mixes and I think many people that skimp on a weak or unmatched center will be missing out.

[just listening]

The center channel should be identical to the LR channels for the best sound stage.

Yes many center channel designs are poor.

A good center is usually a coaxial or a tweeter above the midrange(example: Beta 360)

I'm going to respectfully say "sort of". The top speaker manufacturers in Canada both (Totem and Paradigm) developed center channels with more drivers (though they are the same driver models as the fronts). This is due to their belief that the center channel information requires more push to be heard above the fronts, sides, and rear speakers. Most HT receivers do not boost the center driver enough via the center volume to make up the difference. Thus, the need for multiple drivers to properly fill the room.

[agarwalro]

maybe i'll go something like:
1) 2 axiom m2's
2) the vp100 center speaker (or another m2? this is two people now who have suggested doing that instead of the vp100... interesting, i wouldn't have expected that... isn't a "center channel" speaker designed differently.. specifcally for the job of being the center?)
3) a sub (what would be the price range i should be expecting.. knowing the price range i'm going for with the m2's and vp100??)
4) receiver
5) surround speaker replacements
Folks in posts above have given great advise.

You cannot go wrong with the SVS SB-1 or the Axiom M2.

For front stage to be 100% seamless, for when sound pans from one side to the other, you cannot get better than the same speaker for all three channels.

I did not see any mention of your room size. Don't go 7.1 unless you have a room big enough for it, stick to 5.1 or 5.2. If it is a fairly sizable room, the SB-1's are supposed to play pretty loud but I have no knowledge of what the M2's can do. Combined with a good sub like the SVS PB-10NSD, the sound will blow any HTIB out of the water and probably blow the water out with it :D.

You dont necessarily need a HDMI receiver since the PS3 decodes the HD Audio formats and outputs them via the optical connection. Since the Onkyo receiver has Optical in, you are good for now.

Maybe you can do this, (not necessarily endorsing SB-1's, just using it as an example :cool:, the PB-10NSD sub on the other hand needs no introduction on AV forums)

1) Get 2 SVS SB-1's for Mains (continue to use Onkyo speakers for other channels)
2) Add a SB-1 for Center
3) Add a PB-10NSD
4) Add 2 SB-1's for surrounds
5) Add a PB-10NSD (if room is big)
6) Upgrade receiver to one with all the features you need/ want

Both Axiom and SVS have great customer service and work with their potential customers. See if they will give you a package deal but let you stagger the purchase.

[lsiberian]

I'm going to respectfully say "sort of". The top speaker manufacturers in Canada both (Totem and Paradigm) developed center channels with more drivers (though they are the same driver models as the fronts). This is due to their belief that the center channel information requires more push to be heard above the fronts, sides, and rear speakers. Most HT receivers do not boost the center driver enough via the center volume to make up the difference. Thus, the need for multiple drivers to properly fill the room.

If you need more center volume you can always boost the center in your receiver.

Paradigm centers are very well designed, but a vertical speaker of equal construction will still outperform it. How many drivers depends on the drivers used. A Loki Seas driver can easily fill a room. If you want a bit more you can 2.5 it. The driver is very capable in the right enclosures.

[Scarriere]

"You dont necessarily need a HDMI receiver since the PS3 decodes the HD Audio formats and outputs them via the optical connection. Since the Onkyo receiver has Optical in, you are good for now."

I believe this is incorrect. The PS3 does decode the HD Audio formats, but they are passed only through HDMI.

[ack_bak]

"You dont necessarily need a HDMI receiver since the PS3 decodes the HD Audio formats and outputs them via the optical connection. Since the Onkyo receiver has Optical in, you are good for now."

I believe this is incorrect. The PS3 does decode the HD Audio formats, but they are passed only through HDMI.

Yes. You have to have an HDMI receiver that can carry audio over HDMI (you don't need an HDMI 1.3 receiver though) for the PS3. If you are using an optical cable you can only get lossy (DTS/Dolby Digital) although it will almost always be at a higher bitrate than DVD. Lossy on Blu-Ray is typically 1.5mbps for DTS and 640kbps for Dolby Digital. Which is a noticeable improvement over typical DVD encodes which are 768kbps for DTS and 448kbps for Dolby.

IMHO, the lossy codecs would probably sound better over a legacy receiver with good speakers than lossles codecs over a new receiver with worse speakers. Ideally, you would want both, but I would upgrade speakers first and receiver second.

[ack_bak]

If you need more center volume you can always boost the center in your receiver.



Yes you can, but I tried everything with my Polk center speaker and I could never get it to sound as audible and clear as I would have liked. There is alway going to be a limitation if your speaker is the weak link. The SVS center is a noticeable improvement over the Polk, and as a plus I no longer have to boost the center volume.

[jostenmeat]

and i learned a while ago (still probably a little too late) about not over paying for cables... that one still amazes me!!

I submit that paying more than $2 per foot for HDMI or 25 cents per foot for speaker wire is paying more than you need to.

2) the vp100 center speaker (or another m2? this is two people now who have suggested doing that instead of the vp100... interesting, i wouldn't have expected that... isn't a "center channel" speaker designed differently.. specifcally for the job of being the center?)

Yes, but for an entirely different reason than you're thinking. The "center channel" is designed differently, but with the compromise of being built horizontally for purely aesthetic reasons. Unfortunately, this horizontal compromise has become so ubiquitous that people now mistake it as the ideal. It's very far from it. Vertically arrayed drivers are best.

The best possible match for your center speaker is the one that is identical to your mains. Period. This would be a little dream come true for me, but my enormous, non-acoustically-transparent screen negates the possibility. Icing on the cake would be to have them on the same plane. A little cherry on top would perhaps be to have them equidistant.

What's nice about ID brands, perhaps like Axiom, is that buying an individual speaker is often feasible, unlike with B&M brands where you have to buy a pair and are stuck with an unused extra speaker.

The nice thing about coaxial particularly for the horizontal center speaker is so that it doesn't suffer lobing that occurs with 99.9% of all other center speakers made. Isiberian mentioned the top mounted tweeter, and yes, the idea is that vertically arrayed drivers are best.

What is lobing in a center speaker? When you have redundant drivers playing the same frequencies, something bad happens when you are off-axis to it. The differing distances of the two drivers to your ears means that the freq's are overlapping each other in an asymmetrical fashion. You suffer unwanted boosts and cancellations, and since often it's the mid-drivers that are redundant, horizontally, these issues are happening within the dialogue passband.

So, a horizontal MTM speaker CAN be a bit better designed (oxymoron?) if the redundant drivers are closer together, and the xover point between tweeter and said woofers is lower. The first is so that differing distances are reduced when off-axis, and the second is so that any lobing freq's occur further away from the dialogue passband.

So, with a top mounted tweeter, or coaxial tweet/mid, at least the lobing can occur much lower between "woofers". Of course, with a vertically arrayed bookshelf/tower, this is absolutely a non-issue.

The great thing is that often the "identical" speaker is more affordable than, ahem cough cough, the "specially designed" center speaker.

More on center speakers...
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

[fredk]

Then add the bells and Whistles.
Skip the whistles. I hate whistles!

[ack_bak]

More on center speakers...
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs

Excellent post (I did not quote the whole thing) and thanks for the link. Pretty informative stuff here.

[fredk]

2) the vp100 center speaker (or another m2? this is two people now who have suggested doing that instead of the vp100... interesting, i wouldn't have expected that... isn't a "center channel" speaker designed differently.. specifcally for the job of being the center?)
As others have posted, there are technical adavantages to having a matching center.

The biggest reason I see to going with an matching center for your setup is that it will be half the price.

Some numbers:

M2 fronts +vp100 = 551
M2* 3 = 444

You could even upgrade your fronts to the M3

M3*2 = 507

Matching l/r/c is just more cost effective with no performance penalty.

[just listening]

As others have posted, there are technical adavantages to having a matching center.

The biggest reason I see to going with an matching center for your setup is that it will be half the price.

Some numbers:

M2 fronts +vp100 = 551
M2* 3 = 444

You could even upgrade your fronts to the M3

M3*2 = 507

Matching l/r/c is just more cost effective with no performance penalty.

Fair points and thanks for listing it. In the end it comes down to at what point will you draw the line between quality of sound vs. $$ spent. That is a decision that each hobbyist needs to draw for themselves. To me, I will almost always lean towards spending a bit more to get the best possible sound, i.e. a dedicated center channel. IMHO, a dedicated center design of MTM adds a good 20-25% to my listening experience over just another 2-way as long as the crossover design is properly implemented so that the lobing is mentioned above is a non-issue.

[lsiberian]

Fair points and thanks for listing it. In the end it comes down to at what point will you draw the line between quality of sound vs. $$ spent. That is a decision that each hobbyist needs to draw for themselves. To me, I will almost always lean towards spending a bit more to get the best possible sound, i.e. a dedicated center channel. IMHO, a dedicated center design of MTM adds a good 20-25% to my listening experience over just another 2-way as long as the crossover design is properly implemented so that the lobing is mentioned above is a non-issue.

I'm unfamiliar with how one would design a crossover to eliminate lobing in a horizontal design. Please share.

[fredk]

Fair points and thanks for listing it.
You miss the point. There is no quality trade off as using a matching speaker (eg: M2) as a center will give you the same OR BETTER sound quality than the hoizontal center (VP100).

IF the M2 fits physically, there is no downside and, in fact, the OP could upgrade to the M3 - a further improvement in sound quality - for the same money as the M2s + VP100.

Hope this makes sense.

[ack_bak]

You miss the point. There is no quality trade off as using a matching speaker (eg: M2) as a center will give you the same OR BETTER sound quality than the hoizontal center (VP100).

IF the M2 fits physically, there is no downside and, in fact, the OP could upgrade to the M3 - a further improvement in sound quality - for the same money as the M2s + VP100.

Hope this makes sense.

jostenmeat's excellent post and link was very informative. It appears that there can be more upside than downside to using the same left/right speaker vs the traditional center speaker. So I do agree with you. And you can save some money as you mentioned.

But it really depends on your ability to place a speaker vertically vs horizontally. Many cabinets, etc don't allow for such speaker types.

[just listening]

I'm unfamiliar with how one would design a crossover to eliminate lobing in a horizontal design. Please share.

I was referring to overall sound reproduction, my apologies it was poorly stated.

But, I will say that the work of so many manufacturers of note in higher end speakers than Axiom that use MTM center channel leads me to believe that the benefits of their design outweigh the lobing issue. I'll put this two some friends who have direct contacts with quality manufacturers and see what they have to say.

Interesting discussion everyone.

[Patrick_Wolf]

jostenmeat's excellent post and link was very informative. It appears that there can be more upside than downside to using the same left/right speaker vs the traditional center speaker. So I do agree with you. And you can save some money as you mentioned.

But it really depends on your ability to place a speaker vertically vs horizontally. Many cabinets, etc don't allow for such speaker types.

I wonder if placing the bookshelf speaker horizontally would be better than using the typical MTM center.

I don't recall this article (http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs) mentioning such a thing.

[fredk]

Excellent link Patrick. I was too lazy to go searching.

[lsiberian]

I was referring to overall sound reproduction, my apologies it was poorly stated.

But, I will say that the work of so many manufacturers of note in higher end speakers than Axiom that use MTM center channel leads me to believe that the benefits of their design outweigh the lobing issue. I'll put this two some friends who have direct contacts with quality manufacturers and see what they have to say.

Interesting discussion everyone.

It's already been stated that such uses are for purely aesthetic reasons. And this is fact. Yes a Center can be a very good speakers. For example the Kef IQ 6 presents a great center channel option.

To better understand this I want you to think about how a tweeter behaves compared to a midrange woofer. You will soon discover that lobing is a huge problem as you study the issue. In fact rarely does anyone recommend horizontal driver alignment because of the issues with it for a speaker design.

I believe for multiple reasons that a high quality coaxial provides the ideal solution for center channels sonically speaking.
1. the delay between tweeter and midrange is signficantly reduced making lobing a non issue.
2. I've seen such an example used and recommended by this forums very good speaker designers.
3. The tweeter acts as a waveguide for the center channel reducing it's interference with the LR speakers. Of course this same issue can be a weakness in the LR channels

[just listening]

If there is one thing I've learned in 30+ years of audio is that there is more than one way to execute terrific sound. Ideas and designs that would seem to cause poor sound actually do quite the opposite.

For example, Line Source speakers when designed properly offer outrageous sound. I've had the pleasure of hearing Danny Richie's line source designs at RMAF, "lobing" is not an issue.

[lsiberian]

If there is one thing I've learned in 30+ years of audio is that there is more than one way to execute terrific sound. Ideas and designs that would seem to cause poor sound actually do quite the opposite.

For example, Line Source speakers when designed properly offer outrageous sound. I've had the pleasure of hearing Danny Richie's line source designs at RMAF, "lobing" is not an issue.

I suppose the goal there is to increase the volume to crazy levels. :)

I prefer accuracy over volume. But I suppose if I got 10 drivers I could have some fun. :) It would be an excuse for buying more drivers. I'm starting to like this guy. Inspires me to buy more drivers. :)

[just listening]

The line source example wasn't about being loud, it was about a great listening experience. I don't listen above 90db, and 95% of listening is done at no greater than 80db to be honest.

Funny thing about this discussion is that I enjoy 2-way monitors far more than multiple driver floorstanders.

[colbymartin]

original poster here, checking back in.
thanks everyone for all your extremely helpful insight!
who knew i could glean this much information from a simple question (okay, the question wasn't that simple, but my point remains).

after reading everything and processing it more, here's where i'm at regarding priority and purchasing plan:

1) get 2 Axiom M2's for L&R, unplug my current onkyo center speaker and set my receiver to 4 speakers and sub
2) when cashflow resumes, purchase a 3rd M2 for the center channel (there just seems to be too many of you recommending this course of action for me to ignore, not to mention the $100 in savings over buying a center channel vp100... never would have thought about this before, so thanks guys)
3) save for a new sub (also a new strategy i'm implementing thanks to this thread)
4) get a new receiver to take advantage of HDMI in/out for bluray viewing via PS3
5) replace surround rear speakers

brilliant.
i like this plan... i do have to talk to my wife about the prospect of putting 3 M2's accross the top of our entertainment system. physically i have the space, aesthetically? mmmm...
i'm fascinated by the information regarding the center speaker. i read the article that patrick posted, and its crazy how a horizontal alignment actually works against the sound quality?
one thing i'm wondering (which i didn't see in the article) was if you could take a vertical bookshelf speaker (my 3rd M2) and lay it sideways for the center?

reason being, we have a shelf space for the center speaker, and this would fly aesthetically better than 3 across the top, but would it defeat the "3 matching speakers" concept?
i'll try and upload a picture of my setup so you can see what im saying.
also, if we do have to put the center speaker up top and keep it vertical, it's probably a good 16-18 inches ABOVE the listeners head when it's on top the entertainment center... will this be an issue?? should i try and angle it downward?
also, measured our room: 16' wide by 12' deep.. so it's not large by any means.

here's my current setup

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3608/3487011392_0d083e7ac4.jpg

[Davemcc]

From any sound quality perspective, you're screwed by having everything shoved into that cubbyhole. Maybe there's an altenative arrangement you can consider?

Look up boundary interaction.

[colbymartin]

touche, however i don't think the picture does the setup justice...
the speakers are pretty much flush with the end of the recessed wall, if thats what you're referring to...
but you're right, its probably not ideal, but don't really have another choice...

[ack_bak]

touche, however i don't think the picture does the setup justice...
the speakers are pretty much flush with the end of the recessed wall, if thats what you're referring to...
but you're right, its probably not ideal, but don't really have another choice...

Colby,

That picture may be playing optical games with us :) I would ensure that the speakers are flush with the wall, even if that means pulling that entertainment center out a few more inches. I would also be careful getting a rear ported speaker. You may want to look for sealed speakers. That cubby may do some weird things with a rear ported speaker.

[jostenmeat]

But, I will say that the work of so many manufacturers of note in higher end speakers than Axiom that use MTM center channel leads me to believe that the benefits of their design outweigh the lobing issue. I'll put this two some friends who have direct contacts with quality manufacturers and see what they have to say.

Among their better offerings, B&W uses WTMW and so does Revel. KEF uses coaxial, as does JTR. Obviously, with a top mounted tweeter, the speaker will be taller. For implementation of a better horizontal center design with very limited vertical space, KEF makes the shortest that I have seen.

The funny thing is that even the marketing for BW will show photos of the, *ahem*, "specially" designed center. This photo here is somewhat ludicrous, IMO. No reason to not use identical speaker. The photo/marketing people are probably just thinking what everyone else is thinking. "Oh, right, we need that specially designed center speaker". At least it does have a top mounted tweeter.

http://assets.bowers-wilkins.com/med/Libraries/3/MainHomeTheatre_l2_w357_h268.jpg?dm=0

Otherwise, I think I have seen it said that the horiz MTM will reduce floor and ceiling bounce. So it's plausible that if you sit only front and center, that a horiz mtm might* be a superior thing. Then of course, for others, only over their dead body. Always a yin for the yang. Don't be confused though, a horiz MTM does have issues with accurate horiz dispersion. Period.

I'd like to repeat that the horiz mtm can be better designed if the mid drivers are closer and xover point lowered, but I don't know of any speaker mftr that really aims for this. I've asked the question before, even here, and I got zero responses. Anyhoo . . .

I wonder if placing the bookshelf speaker horizontally would be better than using the typical MTM center.

In one sense, yes, because lobing will be much reduced overall, and will only occur at and around the xover. The one thing you have to now consider is if there is any directional waveguide, diffuser, or something that is intentionally meant for a vertical orientation. Some excellent manufacturers simply rotate their waveguide 90 degrees for the "center" speaker, as with the Ascend Sierra 1 center:

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/images/products/speakers/SRM1C/sr1cpb_ng_hr.jpg

For example, Line Source speakers when designed properly offer outrageous sound. I've had the pleasure of hearing Danny Richie's line source designs at RMAF, "lobing" is not an issue.

The line source example wasn't about being loud, it was about a great listening experience. I don't listen above 90db, and 95% of listening is done at no greater than 80db to be honest.

Funny thing about this discussion is that I enjoy 2-way monitors far more than multiple driver floorstanders.

I'm pretty sure WmAx talked about the pros/cons of line array, in the vertical sense, but I can't find it. In any case, this is a different thing than the specific issue of horizontal array of redundant drivers.


reason being, we have a shelf space for the center speaker, and this would fly aesthetically better than 3 across the top, but would it defeat the "3 matching speakers" concept?
i'll try and upload a picture of my setup so you can see what im saying.
also, if we do have to put the center speaker up top and keep it vertical, it's probably a good 16-18 inches ABOVE the listeners head when it's on top the entertainment center... will this be an issue?? should i try and angle it downward?
also, measured our room: 16' wide by 12' deep.. so it's not large by any means.

How far do you sit from the entertainment center? Something that might not only help with the angle a bit, but also reduce unwanted resonances from the AV cabinet itself, could be a few Auralex Mopads.

http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_mopad/MP.jpg

touche, however i don't think the picture does the setup justice...
the speakers are pretty much flush with the end of the recessed wall, if thats what you're referring to...
but you're right, its probably not ideal, but don't really have another choice...

I think what you want, and what is being recommended, is the front wall

I have a crazy idea for you. How about a false wall? All you will need to do is frame up some wood, cover with GOM (Guillford of Maine, choose your favorite color). You can keep or lose the AV cabinet. The only real downside is that you have to find a new place for those photos and candles. As for components, if you leave them up front, you'll have to figure a way for easy access, and if you do, an $80 URC remote/blaster RF system will control it. Or... you can run an HDMI through the wall, and place your components anywhere else, in a discrete vertical rack cabinet. A 35 foot HDMI cable from Monoprice is probably $40 or so.


EDIT: btw, colbymartin, I also graduated from an HTIB just a tad over two years ago. Yes, my brain exploded several times since then.

[SB Patrick]

"How far do you sit from the entertainment center?"

Given that this is the audioholics forum, it is still surprising that this great thread has barely touched upon the most significant elements to be considered- the room itself, and how you use it. Is it also the music listening room? Do you have a card table in the corner?
From the looks of the pic, this room was adapted for this use, and therefore you are probably also compromising something else too.
So what else is in this box that you described? Are there other niches or cutouts? Windows? One door? What's it made of? What is on the floor?ceiling? What (and how far) is the seating? Do you want a bigger screen?
Most of the space design questions lead to making adaptations or choices that could cost very little and yield big quality shifts.
From the picture, the nook could be either a great bass trap or amp, depending on how you work it.
While a lot of new construction builds a home theater from scratch, most of the world is adapting existing space.
Consider the complete environment first. Not discounting any tech advice given here - great stuff really- but in the absence of considering the room design, it can be for nought.

[lsiberian]

original poster here, checking back in.
thanks everyone for all your extremely helpful insight!
who knew i could glean this much information from a simple question (okay, the question wasn't that simple, but my point remains).

after reading everything and processing it more, here's where i'm at regarding priority and purchasing plan:

1) get 2 Axiom M2's for L&R, unplug my current onkyo center speaker and set my receiver to 4 speakers and sub
2) when cashflow resumes, purchase a 3rd M2 for the center channel (there just seems to be too many of you recommending this course of action for me to ignore, not to mention the $100 in savings over buying a center channel vp100... never would have thought about this before, so thanks guys)
3) save for a new sub (also a new strategy i'm implementing thanks to this thread)
4) get a new receiver to take advantage of HDMI in/out for bluray viewing via PS3
5) replace surround rear speakers

brilliant.
i like this plan... i do have to talk to my wife about the prospect of putting 3 M2's accross the top of our entertainment system. physically i have the space, aesthetically? mmmm...
i'm fascinated by the information regarding the center speaker. i read the article that patrick posted, and its crazy how a horizontal alignment actually works against the sound quality?
one thing i'm wondering (which i didn't see in the article) was if you could take a vertical bookshelf speaker (my 3rd M2) and lay it sideways for the center?

reason being, we have a shelf space for the center speaker, and this would fly aesthetically better than 3 across the top, but would it defeat the "3 matching speakers" concept?
i'll try and upload a picture of my setup so you can see what im saying.
also, if we do have to put the center speaker up top and keep it vertical, it's probably a good 16-18 inches ABOVE the listeners head when it's on top the entertainment center... will this be an issue?? should i try and angle it downward?
also, measured our room: 16' wide by 12' deep.. so it's not large by any means.

here's my current setup

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3608/3487011392_0d083e7ac4.jpg

I think it's best to mount the speaker on the walls. I like the false wall idea though.

However I doubt he wants to go to that trouble. Laziness rules supreme. :)

I don't suggest putting the LR channels on top of the tube. Get a sealed speaker and put it on the wall dividing the room into 4 sections.

So every 5' along the wall. Then put the center channel above the tv aimed at you.

I would personally ditch the cabinet and wall mount the tv.

What's the width of the cubbyhole It might make a nice wave guide for the center channel. Though I would experiment with it on the wall and then out a bit. My goal here is to compensate for the baffle step phenomena. putting a speaker on the wall essentially widens the baffle allowing for greater formation of the LFE throughout the room. I've tried various setups and found this to be the best placement for my speakers. Especially for home theater.

I just wanted to toss out the DIY option. If you are an engineer, scientists, etc. The option is very appealing and fun. I love it and can't get enough of the DIY aspect of this hobby. Yes you will need tools, but hey you are a man.:) If you aren't that type of person then just buy something retail before you get the five finger discount. Saws can be mean to hands.:D

A DIY sub is pretty simple. Speakers are a little more work.

[fredk]

...if you could take a vertical bookshelf speaker (my 3rd M2) and lay it sideways for the center?
If you decide to put the new center where your current one is, go with one designed for horizontal operation.

I agree that you should move the whole center forward a little so that the side walls have less boundry effect.

A ported speaker will be fine in that location unless the back of the speaker is jammed up against the wall.

It seems like you have a pretty good handle on things now. Have fun!!