Diminishing returns

[mudrummer99]

I was wondering at what point, in your opinions, does diminishing returns really start to take place with speakers? I've heard numbers like above $6k or above $4k, but I just wanted to know what you guys think. I know you can't judge a speaker based on price, so I'm talking in generalities. When are you paying a premium for marginal returns?

Mike

[Adam]

I'm not that worldly when it comes to speakers, but I'll throw in my thought. I think it really depends on you (or whoever is buying/listening) - how well you can hear, and how much you care about what you hear. As one consideration, our hearing gets worse as we get older, especially in the high frequencies.

[highfigh]

I was wondering at what point, in your opinions, does diminishing returns really start to take place with speakers? I've heard numbers like above $6k or above $4k, but I just wanted to know what you guys think. I know you can't judge a speaker based on price, so I'm talking in generalities. When are you paying a premium for marginal returns?

Mike

I think that depends on the perception of value to the listener/buyer. If you want a great sounding speaker, it doesn't really need to look great but many of the most expensive have piano black, exotic wood and other expensive exteriors. These may look good but do absolutely nothing to make them sound better. I usually audition equipment without looking at it much because the choice is made based on sound, so....

[BoB/335]

I could never see myself spending this kind of money but I heard a pair of Salk HT3's this past weekend and were definitely something to behold.

http://www.salksound.com/ht3.shtml

[j_garcia]

I would say that is about right, $4-5K is where it starts. I can definitely hear what is better about more expensive speakers and I could justify spending that on them if I had that kind of money, but it doesn't mean that I couldn't be happy with speakers that don't cost that much. To me it is like horsepower: the faster you want to go, the more you need to reach the next level of big improvement. With speakers the incremental improvements require a lot more small details and often more expensive components and construction to eek out that extra little bit that sets them apart. I have heard a nice Aerial setup that was around $100K and while very impressed, they didn't make me think that my system didn't sound good when I went home :)

[mudrummer99]

Yeah, from what I've seen/heard, it's all in the the ear of the beholder. It seems it's what you are happy with. Of course I would love a $20k pair of speakers, but I would probably be quite contented with something that cost 1/10th of that. Something I have noticed in my listenings lately is there seems to a big jump in quality between $1k and $2k speakers, much more so than between $2k and $3k. I don't know where I would draw the line, but I would imagine it would be somewhere around this area, atleast to my ears.

Mike

[codexp3]

I'm going to go with 7k. I can find half a dozen speakers at or below that price that will give me 99% of what I need. That still doesn't stop me from being tempted by 20k speakers.

[BoB/335]

Yeah, from what I've seen/heard, it's all in the the ear of the beholder. It seems it's what you are happy with. Of course I would love a $20k pair of speakers, but I would probably be quite contented with something that cost 1/10th of that. Something I have noticed in my listenings lately is there seems to a big jump in quality between $1k and $2k speakers, much more so than between $2k and $3k. I don't know where I would draw the line, but I would imagine it would be somewhere around this area, atleast to my ears.

Mike


I compared Axiom M80's to Song Towers and there was enough of a difference to go the extra money and I think I could be happy with the ST's. Still wondering what is out there to compare the ST's to.

[lsiberian]

A different Lens

When the speaker's cost ruins your financial situation. I mean if you are too poor to eat because of the speakers or your wife leaves you over the speakers then you have gone too far. Remember the real thing is better than a movie. Most people would be happy with a 1k system. And if you DIY you can really have an amazing setup for far less than the 5k price. At that price you could buy tools that would make building the speakers easy or even higher out the cabinets.

[codexp3]

I didn’t answer the question correctly. When I hit the 6-10k range all of the speakers I auditioned sounded very good. I had to nitpick for subtle differences. At the 2-3k range you have to look harder to find the ideal speaker (I’ve listened to good and bad speakers in that price range). If you find a very well made speaker in the 2-3k range the returns start to diminish. I'm sure you could find an excellent pair of 1k speakers too, but it'd take more time and effort.

[MatthewB.]

I think it's all relative to the room the speakers are in and what gear is being used. I have heard cheap speakers that sound fantastic in a well treated room and I have heard mega expensive speakers that sound like crap in lousy rooms. I have also heard hand built speakers that have blown away speakers costing 10,000/ea. What we like in sound quality to me is more important. You could like B&W 800D's or white van specials, whatever you like is what you should buy (although I would warn against the white van specials).
But no matter what you love in sound quality, if you spend a fortune on em, you won't get to enjoy them anyway because of the constant screaming from your significant other about how crazy you must be to spend X amount of dollars on a pair of speakers.

[jostenmeat]

From what I have heard and learned so far, it seems spending more than what a BW diamond speaker costs might be money thrown away. However, I haven't heard any MBL system! There's a guy at another forum who has egged me about going with him to CES the last two years . . . which I've never been to, but I told him to listen to the MBLs.

Josten, on the MBL's...good lord...

that room is exactly why you should have gone to CES. Where to begin, I listened in great detail to both the Noble line and the Reference line. The Nobles look a little like the robot from Lost in Space with an MSRP of 35,000 per pair. Each speaker was driven by it's own 2200w amplifier (not included in the 35,000 price..lol). You know what, they were pretty good....lol. As set up, the sound stage was about 12 feet wide but honestly, not very deep. When I closed my eyes, I could place the instruments well from left to right but not well at all from front to back. Given the price I'm going to define adequate sound as, with my eyes closed, could I tell the recording from an actual orchestra 6 feet in front of me. I can honestly say that with regard to vocals, horns, and cymbals, I would not have been able to tell the difference. In those areas, these speakers were the best I've ever heard. With regard to bass and drums, not as good. Honestly, I was disappointed in the bass. Earlier in the day, I listened to the much more intimidating in appearence Swanns. I would say that they were also perfect with regard to the horn section but not nearly as accurate as these speakers with vocals. The Swans were aided by two giant subs so bass conmparison wouldn't have been fair.

On the Reference, how exactly would you descibe the look. I wonder if you rub that thing in the middle if a genie will come out? For the 60,000 per pair MSRP, I'd definately need one to. There were no flaws whatsoever in these speakers. Each one was driven by it's own 5,000w amplifier...lol. Once again, not included. In the case of these speakers, the bass was awesome. I listened to a new Paradigm 7.1 set up with 4 subs that couldn't have matched the way these two speakers filled up the room. It was incredible. In the case of these speakers, I would never have been able to tell you the difference in live and recorded. in addition, I could picture where every instrument was located on the stage perfectly. i don't know how a speaker could get any better than these. Total equipment involved, MBL 1621a CD transport, MBL 1611F D/A converter, MBL 6010D pre-amp, 2 MBL 9011/9008 amps, MBL 101e Radialstrahler. Cost, more than a McDonalds franchise.

In summery, I'd say what's another 25 grand? You'll want to go with the References.

Rusty

He uses MA RS6s.

If I only had 2k, Id get a nice pair of bookshelves, prolly some Ascends, and sub.

Agreed with Matthew on the room. I've heard 802Ds in the worst room EVAH! I asked the guy if the tweeters were blown. Honest.



my 2 cents, if you don't listen to classical music, I think overspending comes very, very quickly. Just my impressions, atm. The demand for transparency throughout the range is not as great with other musics I find.

For instance, in my PSB Image setup that I use for the HT: people just LOVE the audio. Forget the HT recliners, multirow, huge screen, JVC projector, they just LOVE the audio. Yes it's a treated room. The Images are a good value, and I think they make for very good HT speakers for the money.

What they don't notice, however, if they are present, is when I throw on a classical music bluray. The midbass transparency is simply not there (compared to better speakers, like my stereo pair). If someone basically only listens to rock music, my guess is that lack of transparency will not be very missed. I would believe in fact that they might think spending more than my $600 pair of Images would be money down the drain. Just my impressions, atm.

[codexp3]

But no matter what you love in sound quality, if you spend a fortune on em, you won't get to enjoy them anyway because of the constant screaming from your significant other about how crazy you must be to spend X amount of dollars on a pair of speakers.

Or you let her buy the 2000 dollar purse. She now has no room to argue when I come home with new pair of Fathom f212s in a few months. Not that I’ve already thought this through…

[MatthewB.]

codex, spending 2 grand on a purse is ludicris, but spending 30 grand on some B&W's is well worth the investment. No matter what, it's all about perspective and whsoe perspective that is.

I have a buddy who thinks MadDog 20/20 is the best wine out there. :rolleyes:

[codexp3]

codex, spending 2 grand on a purse is ludicris, but spending 30 grand on some B&W's is well worth the investment. No matter what, it's all about perspective and whsoe perspective that is.

I have a buddy who thinks MadDog 20/20 is the best wine out there. :rolleyes:

MadDog certainly keeps the French wineries on their toes. Chateau Lafite 1787 vs. my bottle of MD20/20 from freshman year 1994! I'm going to sit on this puppy for 2 more centuries then we'll see who stands the test of time.

[Midcow2]

about 10% higher than you can comfortably afford.

I have about $4-5K worth of speakers now. Am I happy, YES. Would I like $8K or $16K or more $$$$ better, well DUH Yes!

I think the returns start to diminish at some point, but I contend you buy about 10% above what you can comfortably afford no matter where you are.

If you can afford a Ford Taurus you don't drive a Kia Rio. If you can afford a Lexus ES 350 you don't drive a Ford Taurus. However any of the three cars gets you from point A to B.

Each person has there level of satisfaction and part of it has to do with your roll-of-the-life-dice.

IMHO you start to get very good quality around $2-3 K /pair of fronts. However, someone at a higher plane in life than I, with Alexandria X-2s, would certainly disagree.

Take Care ;)

MidCow2

[lsiberian]

Or you let her buy the 2000 dollar purse. She now has no room to argue when I come home with new pair of Fathom f212s in a few months. Not that I’ve already thought this through…

Now you know it's never a two way street. She gets the 2000 dollar purse and you get something else in return, but I don't know if it's speakers.

[lsiberian]

If you can afford a Ford Taurus you don't drive a Kia Rio. If you can afford a Lexus ES 350 you don't drive a Ford Taurus. However any of the three cars gets you from point A to B.


Um seriously a Ford?

I've driven a lot of cars and the Fords are the loosest things on the planet. Give me my tight Mazda any day of the week. We do know what Ford stands for right?

[emorphien]

It's a tough call. There are some excellent speakers under $1000 that give many more expensive speakers a run for their money. Jumping to the 2-3k range opens up a lot of alternatives. I a sense the returns are diminishing the more you spend, regardless of how much it is. $500 to 1000 isn't guaranteed to yield a 2x improvement in performance for some things. I would say the very fuzzy line gets harder to push beyond in the 3-6k region based on everything I've heard so far.

[strube]

Um seriously a Ford?

I've driven a lot of cars and the Fords are the loosest things on the planet. Give me my tight Mazda any day of the week. We do know what Ford stands for right?

Sorry, I am not trying to take this thread off topic any more but this made me chuckle. Up until a few months ago, Ford owned a controlling amount of stock in Mazda, and still shares several vehicle platforms :D. Mazda 6 = Ford Fusion, Mazda CX7 = Ford Edge, Mazda Tribute = Ford Escape, etc. I used to dislike Ford but they have improved greatly over the past 4 years, and are by far the best of the big 3, just had to through a little defense their way :).

[lsiberian]

Sorry, I am not trying to take this thread off topic any more but this made me chuckle. Up until a few months ago, Ford owned a controlling amount of stock in Mazda, and still shares several vehicle platforms :D. Mazda 6 = Ford Fusion, Mazda CX7 = Ford Edge, Mazda Tribute = Ford Escape, etc. I used to dislike Ford but they have improved greatly over the past 4 years, and are by far the best of the big 3, just had to through a little defense their way :).

I've driven both the Mazda 6 and Ford Fusion and the 6 drives better.

Call me crazy, but it has superior handling. Ultimately I went with the Mazda 3 s I think it's the perfect balance of handling, power, and size.

FYI they build Mazda's in Japan at factories with very high QA. They build Ford's somewhere else.

While Ford may have a controlling interest they are different cars. Ford caters to my Parents. Mazda caters to me. :D

It's like comparing JBL to Infinity IMO.

Though the Ford Trucks are very nice. I still hate trucks.

[highfigh]

A different Lens

When the speaker's cost ruins your financial situation. I mean if you are too poor to eat because of the speakers or your wife leaves you over the speakers then you have gone too far. Remember the real thing is better than a movie. Most people would be happy with a 1k system. And if you DIY you can really have an amazing setup for far less than the 5k price. At that price you could buy tools that would make building the speakers easy or even higher out the cabinets.

Does this mean we need a poll on who should be considered the audio version of a degenerate gambler?

[codexp3]

Does this mean we need a poll on who should be considered the audio version of a degenerate gambler?

Audioholics anonymous? Are you kidding? Texas stadium wouldn't be big enough to house our meetings! Of course...we might be able to spin it as a non profit and get tax free system upgrades...

[Alex2507]

Give me my tight Mazda any day of the week.

I hate Mazda so bad I won't drive a Mercury because it has an 'M' in it. :D :p

Yeah, from what I've seen/heard, it's all in the the ear of the beholder.

I think it's in the eye of the beholder too. It's been shown that if the speaker looks pretty and the listener sees a huge price tag, they like it more. To me the point of diminishing returns depends on how much you make, how much you have and how much cushion you're comfortable with. I recently heard something in the $2500/pair price range and it made me a little wet. I'm just not there yet. :o

[BoB/335]

I hate Mazda so bad I won't drive a Mercury because it has an 'M' in it. :D :p



I think it's in the eye of the beholder too. It's been shown that if the speaker looks pretty and the listener sees a huge price tag, they like it more. To me the point of diminishing returns depends on how much you make, how much you have and how much cushion you're comfortable with. I recently heard something in the $2500/pair price range and it made me a little wet. I'm just not there yet. :o


Would you mind sharing what that pair is?

[Alex2507]

Would you mind sharing what that pair is?

Read all about it:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52868

I can't even imagine what 4-5 grand gets you. I don't think it would be wise to find out. It could lead to a new career in robbing banks.

[Midcow2]

Um seriously a Ford?

I've driven a lot of cars and the Fords are the loosest things on the planet. Give me my tight Mazda any day of the week. We do know what Ford stands for right?

I had a Ford once, a 1990 5-speed SHO with a 220 hp Yamaha engine. Nice for 2 years then it turned into a Ford! Ford Customer Service did me wrong and that was my last domestic car. Only Lexus, Toyota, Honda and Acura since!

Later,

MidCow2

My Pioneer is scheduled to be delivered Saturday, 2/28/09 :D


P.S. - Alex since Mercedes is now flawed by Chrysler is it alss on your banned "M" list ?? :eek:

[Exit]

[QUOTE=FYI they build Mazda's in Japan at factories with very high QA. They build Ford's somewhere else.[/QUOTE]

The Mazda 3 is built in Hiroshima, Japan and has a very good reliability record. The Mazda 6 is built near Detroit and has a much poorer reliability record. The Mazda 6 looks sharp though, if you are not as much concerned about repair hassles and costs.

[lsiberian]

The Mazda 3 is built in Hiroshima, Japan and has a very good reliability record. The Mazda 6 is built near Detroit and has a much poorer reliability record. The Mazda 6 looks sharp though, if you are not as much concerned about repair hassles and costs.

Good to know I made the right choice.:D

The Nintendo was still their best contribution to the world. I make it a point to thank Japanese people for it. They always give a good laugh. Lets see how many ducks I can kill today.:D

[lsiberian]

I had a Ford once, a 1990 5-speed SHO with a 220 hp Yamaha engine. Nice for 2 years then it turned into a Ford! Ford Customer Service did me wrong and that was my last domestic car. Only Lexus, Toyota, Honda and Acura since!

Later,

MidCow2

My Pioneer is scheduled to be delivered Saturday, 2/28/09 :D


P.S. - Alex since Mercedes is now flawed by Chrysler is it alss on your banned "M" list ?? :eek:

Actually they got rid of Chrysler. They tried to do something good with them, but they just couldn't. It would be like JBL buying B and trying to make them better. A disaster waiting to happen.

If they tried to merge B with Infinity I wonder what you would get. A BSS.

[Alex2507]

Alex since Mercedes is now flawed by Chrysler is it also on your banned "M" list ?? :eek:

Thinks for a nanosecond .... eagerly responds, "I will allow it."
Sticking to the topic, I must point out that the point of diminishing returns has been crossed with that 'M' class. BTW, I am on my second Ford since 1994.

This is America, Bub. Love it or leave it.
says the non-american. the old guys always miss the small print. he he he

[highfigh]

Audioholics anonymous? Are you kidding? Texas stadium wouldn't be big enough to house our meetings! Of course...we might be able to spin it as a non profit and get tax free system upgrades...

Well, being in the business, everything I buy is technically demo equipment but if I keep it for too long, I have to pay a Use Tax. OTOH, I can't just buy everything, either.