Power conditioners question? [Archive] - Audioholics Home Theater Forums

TLS Guy

10-07-2009, 01:28 PM

First how do many of you feel about the benefit of these units?

I decided to try out the PPP, power Plant Premier. And I just do not feel comfortable with it especially the price tag. It does seem to do all that they claim, But I have two issues with it.
1. This thing gets as hot as an Onkyo when playing components, and it has a twin fan that would not come on after two hours of continuous playing, also in the sleep mode, (they say not to turn it off when not using), it stays fairly warm.
2. The out put is reading 121, and the input is reading from 122 to 123, I called the company and they said the factory calibration may be slightly off, but that everything should be fine.
I can return this unit for a full refund and am thinking I just may, and am now looking at a Panamax max 7500 - Pro. Any thoughts, would be much appreciated! Bob

Send it back. Those units are not worth it. What they do is regenerate your power though power transistors oscillating at 60 Hz which is why they make so much heat and are failure prone.

My good friend Dr Phil Marin was persuaded by his dealer to buy a unit like that made by PS Audio. The cost was $2500. A few months ago he was having strange issues with his system, and his dealer went so far as to send his CD/DVD player back to McIntosh, who found nothing wrong with it.

I came down to investigate, to find that PS unit was deconditioning his power!

That unit was sent in for repair to the tune of $275. It is now for sale at Hi-Fi Sound Minneapolis, at a price of $1400, if anyone is interested. The dealer commission is $400.

I installed for him a nice refurbed smart UPS from APC, that he is very happy with.

What you really require, is a unit that protects from even small amounts of over or under powering in less than 5 ms, preferable 1 to 2 ms. Also it needs to isolate you from big spikes and surges.

The most economical way of getting that protection is from refurbed APC units. They are money very well spent.

I can't stress enough how small amounts of under and over voltage are damaging to modern electronics, like receiver, CD/DVD/BD player, cable/satellite boxes and TVs.

My units cut in and out frequently. This morning we had a major power outage, and went in less than 5 secs to the standby generator. In these events power is often very rocky when the power comes back on. I have the generator set to stay on until the grid voltage is stable within reasonable parameters. Then the generator shuts down and then the UPS units handle it by themselves. As long as this situation did not occur for too long the UPS units alone would have had enough battery power to handle it.

So a fast acting UPS is what you need.

Yamaheart

10-18-2009, 01:58 AM

So, do you guys recommended the APC H15 as a good buy? Since I also need 1 for my system. Thanks.

FirstReflection

10-18-2009, 03:07 AM

There are basically four potential aspect of a "power conditioner".

The first is surge/spike protection. This is an obvious "must have". If there is a surge from the power company (typically happens after a black out when the power comes back on) or a lightning strike, you need something that will protect your gear. Any UL certified surge/spike protector is all you need for this "first step".

Second, is a battery backup/Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS). If a brown out or a black out happens, power can be instantly lost to your devices. Anything that needs to cool properly is unable to do so. Any hard drive that is spinning suddenly stops. And anything that was in progress is halted without a proper shut down cycle. The goal of battery backup/UPS typically isn't to keep your entire system going during a black out. Instead, the goal is usually to just give you enough time to properly shut everything down. You can turn anything with a cooling fan to standby and allow the cooling fans to do their job as the device powers down. You can save your data. And you can keep your DVR recordings going or save your progress in a videogame.

I cannot recommend highly enough that you have battery backup/UPS in your system.

Third, there is filtering. This is rarely necessary. But some neighborhoods have very "dirty" power with lots of stray interference entering the power lines. There is also independent filter "banks" on some power conditioners. The idea here is to prevent any device "cross-talk" within your own system. If you connect something with an electric motor to the same outlet bank as your gear, you'll likely get "snow" on your display or hear static through your speakers. Filtering can eliminate the RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) or EMI (Electromagnetic Interference) that might be picked up by your local power lines or introduced into your house wiring by an electric motor.

Finally, there is Voltage Regulation. The power that comes into your home will generally stay between 100 and 130 Volts AC. And pretty much any device can tolerate that range. But, occasionally, the incoming power might dip or peak below or above that range, and when that happens, there is some chance of damaging your equipment. A Voltage Regulator simply keeps the Voltage within a tolerable range.

Like the others here, my recommendation goes to APC. You can get the first two (and most important) aspects of power conditioning - surge/spike protection and battery backup/UPS for a relatively low cost with APC's UPS products.

You can also opt to get all four aspects (and a prettier case) with their J Type or S Type Home Theater Power Conditioner offerings.

People have recommended the H Type models. I respectfully disagree. For not that much more, you can get superb battery backup/UPS added to the features of the H Type models by purchasing a J Type model instead. The first time the power goes out, you will instantly know why I recommend battery backup/UPS so highly ;)

The S Type models are a little more sophisticated and can generally deliver greater total Wattage output than the J Type series. But for most systems, the J Type models will offer more than enough and they are considerably less expensive.

I cannot recommend the J Type APC models highly enough!

The other power conditioners that are out there are mostly either over-priced or just plain ineffective and based on no real science (or both). Products like Richard Gray's Power Company can even be outright dangerous and that is why you will never see a UL sticker on them!

All of APC's products are fully UL Certified and there are no ridiculous claims of improving your sound or picture by somehow altering the power that comes out of your wall. The APC products will protect your gear - first and foremost - and with models that offer filtering and voltage regulation, they will also eliminate any stray interference. That is all that a power conditioner can and should do. And the APC products - the J Type models in particular - do it for a very reasonable price and they do it extremely well.

Return the unit that you have and get an APC J15 :)

westom

10-18-2009, 12:34 PM

So, do you guys recommended the APC H15 as a good buy?
Read the specs for that unit. It has the same specifications found in a $7 surge protector selling in the grocery store. If they call it a power conditioner, then it can sell for a higher price? Yes.

If you need that solution, you need it for everything in the house. That means spending a whopping $1 per appliance for something that actually does provide some protection. Something that is routinely installed in any facility that cannot suffer damage. One 'whole house' protector.

If they put some fancy paint on a new box and get the electrically naive to recommend it, then it must be better? Then you must need it? View its specs numbers. It does not even claim to protect from the electrical anomaly that typically causes electronics damage.

njedpx3

10-18-2009, 02:58 PM

So, do you guys recommended the APC H15 as a good buy? Since I also need 1 for my system. Thanks.

Yamaheart,

I have two APC H15s for a little over 6 months and I had one bad power outage during lighting storm, power flickering on-off. NO equipment problems during that time :)

Even though we have underground power; power is iffy during rainstorms, which are fairly frequent here.

Good Luck!

Forest Man

P.S.- bought one from Amazon , one from Audioholics- as I remember I paid about $150 for each. It was my first order from Audioholics; was very impressed with Audioholics order process, status, packaging, and delivery.

TLS Guy

10-18-2009, 08:10 PM

If you want a fancy box, the APC J 15 is what you need. However, a referb. like this will do everything you need. (http://www.upsforless.com/apcsmartups1500vausbtowerupsnewsua1500.aspx)

I just installed on of these for a friend, and it is a great unit. He is in St. Paul MN. He says the unit is frequently operating to especially support voltage and also on occasions shave voltage.

He had an expensive power conditioner before ($2550) that deconditioned his power!

westom

10-19-2009, 01:02 AM

I have two APC H15s for a little over 6 months and I had one bad power outage during lighting storm, power flickering on-off. NO equipment problems during that time
Why would power off cause damage? Power off is a reduced voltage. Electronics damage is created by increased voltage; currents conducted where currents should not be flowing. Why do you assume a power outage is an increased voltage?

How many other appliances were destroyed by that 'power outage'? How many unprotected devices destroyed such as dimmer switches, dishwahser, kitchen and bathroom GFCIs, television? To know that an APC did anything, you must list the so many unprotected appliances destroyed by that power outage. Otherwise your conclusion is a perfect example of junk science reasoning. Why are so many unprotected appliances not harmed?

Nobody quotes APC numeric specs for one simple reason. APC does not claim that protection in specs. OP fears voltage variations that are perfectly acceptable to any appliance. Even electric motors may be harmed by a larger voltage variation that is perfectly normal for electronics.

A witch doctor blessed my electronics. Now I have protection equivalent to what APC claims. A conclusion based in all available spec numbers.

TLS Guy

10-19-2009, 08:47 AM

Why would power off cause damage? Power off is a reduced voltage. Electronics damage is created by increased voltage; currents conducted where currents should not be flowing. Why do you assume a power outage is an increased voltage?

How many other appliances were destroyed by that 'power outage'? How many unprotected devices destroyed such as dimmer switches, dishwahser, kitchen and bathroom GFCIs, television? To know that an APC did anything, you must list the so many unprotected appliances destroyed by that power outage. Otherwise your conclusion is a perfect example of junk science reasoning. Why are so many unprotected appliances not harmed?

Nobody quotes APC numeric specs for one simple reason. APC does not claim that protection in specs. OP fears voltage variations that are perfectly acceptable to any appliance. Even electric motors may be harmed by a larger voltage variation that is perfectly normal for electronics.

A witch doctor blessed my electronics. Now I have protection equivalent to what APC claims. A conclusion based in all available spec numbers.

Very few pieces of electronics are actually destroyed by the type of surge a surge protector is designed to shunt to ground via a thyristor. Surge protectors provide minimal protection.

First lets take a power cut. There will be a transformer near your dwelling supplying two or three residences. Transformers are inductive devices. When you suddenly shut power to an inductor, it resits, and rapidly increases voltage before the voltage dies. This is the phenomenon of back EMF. It is a big force and real. However this back EMF spike will be below what a surge protector would shunt, but quite large enough to damage modern electronics with micro processors. This includes, receivers, TVs, DVD players, satellite and cable boxes.

The next issue is that the grid is getting old and deteriorating. Voltage on many areas is not controlled nearly as well as it used to be, especially in terms of voltage being properly supported at times of peak load. After moving to a relatively remote area I was not surprised to find the power showing low voltage at times in the winter. However it can show significant over voltage in summer, which did surprise me. At my friends house in St Paul MN, I was surprised to find that hings are actually no better. In fact on hot days with high air conditioning loads, under voltage periods are significant.

Now modern electronics, hates under voltage. The more powerful and complex the microprocessor chip the more vulnerable. So you need a device that will constantly cut in to support voltage at 108 volts and shave at 130 volts. Response time should be no longer than 5 msec and preferably less than 2 ms.

As an example, when I installed my system here, the studio was covered with three UPS units. I had a system on the first level, that also had a Direct TV HD DVR, the same as in the studio. The first winter, the low voltage periods took down the unprotected HDDVR as well as the roof electronics, three times. So I had to place a UPS at that location also and have had no problems since.

With the current state of the grid, surge protectors are minimal to no protection. Any electronics that is complex with microprocessor circuitry need fast acting UPS protection.

westom

10-19-2009, 01:36 PM

Very few pieces of electronics are actually destroyed by the type of surge a surge protector is designed to shunt to ground via a thyristor. Surge protectors provide minimal protection. ...

With the current state of the grid, surge protectors are minimal to no protection. Any electronics that is complex with microprocessor circuitry need fast acting UPS protection.
UPSes are so slow that many - maybe hundreds of consecutive surges - could pass through that UPS before it responds to anything. UPSes take tens of milliseconds to respond. Voltages that cause damage are done in microseconds. One need only read UPS spec numbers. No place is protection from that surge even discussed.

Electronics that once had to withstand up to 600 volts without damage are now rated to withstand thousands of volts. Even interface semiconductors are now rated to withstand 2000 or 15,000 volts without damage per international standards.

Electrical anomalies that typically cause damage (that can overwhelm internal protection) are averted at the service entrance. Where does that energy go? Either energy is harmlessly absorbed in earth. Or that energy goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

If back EMF from a transformer creates destructive spikes, then 60 hertz electricity that turns off 120 times per second also creates back EMF spikes. It doesn't? Exactly. That back EMF is a subjective myth not found in actual practice. And if that transformer does create a destructive spike, well those UPS spec numbers say why that spike would pass right through the UPS - why a UPS does not respond fast enough.

Old grid? That is the nonsense promoted in politics by the naive to the naive. The grid is even better and more reliable today then when it was new in the 1950s. But an 'old grid' plays to those who learn subjectively and who routinely entertain misguided fears. Same people also believe a UPS provides that protection rather than first demand spec numbers - to see no such protection really exists.

Anomalies that typically cause damage cannot be stopped. What does that UPS do? Tries to stop what cannot be stopped. Anything that attempts to stop a typically destructive transient is simply overwhelmed by a massive voltage increase that blows through. Protection has always been about earthing before that transient can enter the building. As the NIST said, “The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.”

TLS Guy

10-19-2009, 01:54 PM

UPSes are so slow that many - maybe hundreds of consecutive surges - could pass through that UPS before it responds to anything. UPSes take tens of milliseconds to respond. Voltages that cause damage are done in microseconds. One need only read UPS spec numbers. No place is protection from that surge even discussed.

Electronics that once had to withstand up to 600 volts without damage are now rated to withstand thousands of volts. Even interface semiconductors are now rated to withstand 2000 or 15,000 volts without damage per international standards.

Electrical anomalies that typically cause damage (that can overwhelm internal protection) are averted at the service entrance. Where does that energy go? Either energy is harmlessly absorbed in earth. Or that energy goes hunting for earth destructively via appliances.

If back EMF from a transformer creates destructive spikes, then 60 hertz electricity that turns off 120 times per second also creates back EMF spikes. It doesn't? Exactly. That back EMF is a subjective myth not found in actual practice. And if that transformer does create a destructive spike, well those UPS spec numbers say why that spike would pass right through the UPS - why a UPS does not respond fast enough.

Old grid? That is the nonsense promoted in politics by the naive to the naive. The grid is even better and more reliable today then when it was new in the 1950s. But an 'old grid' plays to those who learn subjectively and who routinely entertain misguided fears. Same people also believe a UPS provides that protection rather than first demand spec numbers - to see no such protection really exists.

Anomalies that typically cause damage cannot be stopped. What does that UPS do? Tries to stop what cannot be stopped. Anything that attempts to stop a typically destructive transient is simply overwhelmed by a massive voltage increase that blows through. Protection has always been about earthing before that transient can enter the building. As the NIST said, “The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.”

My UPS units have a typical response time of 5 msec max, though 1 to 2 msec is typical. And yes they do work perfectly on my scope, at times of instability, like ice storms.

I can tell you in my tenure as building chairman of our large multi specialty clinic, I reduced downtime and equipment failures dramatically with an aggressive UPS program.

westom

10-20-2009, 05:07 AM

My UPS units have a typical response time of 5 msec max, though 1 to 2 msec is typical. Therefore it can provide power during power blackouts (computers can run tens of milliseconds without power while that UPS responds). And it cannot stop destructive electrical anomalies (that typically occur in microseconds). A destructive surge could repeat over 100 consecutive times before your UPS even responded (according to your numbers).

A UPS provides battery power when AC mains fail. It does not claim to protect from and is not fast enough to respond to typically destructive electrical anomalies. Even your numbers say why.

As a designer of some 'tested' systems, and from 100 years of well proven knowledge; the effective solution implements earth ground. Your UPS does not. We did not just reduce failures. Failures had to be completely eliminated. No damage even from direct lightning strikes. Only UPS that met that criteria is located at the service entrance within feet of earth ground. Or we obtain an equivalent solution by earthing a 'whole house' protector. In every case – and as quoted from the NSIT – the effective solution means proper earthing.

We did not learn by simply 'trying this and trying that' aggressively. We first learned the science. Demanded numbers. Even wire impedance is a significant factor. Your UPS without that shot and dedicated connection to earth would be insufficient. And probably costs more money. But even worse – its numbers do not even claim what you would have it do.

A UPS especially without the always required earthing will do one thing successfully. Provide temporary power during blackouts. That does not provide hardware protection. One need only read manufacturer spec numbers to appreciate same.

So that the rare and destructive transient does not also harm that UPS, or to accomplish what is well proven by over 100 years of knowledge; install and properly earth one ‘whole house’ protector. A protector that costs about $1 per protected appliance. Why? Hardware protection is only as effective as the earthing – where destructive energy must be harmlessly absorbed.

TLS Guy

10-20-2009, 03:02 PM

Therefore it can provide power during power blackouts (computers can run tens of milliseconds without power while that UPS responds). And it cannot stop destructive electrical anomalies (that typically occur in microseconds). A destructive surge could repeat over 100 consecutive times before your UPS even responded (according to your numbers).

A UPS provides battery power when AC mains fail. It does not claim to protect from and is not fast enough to respond to typically destructive electrical anomalies. Even your numbers say why.

As a designer of some 'tested' systems, and from 100 years of well proven knowledge; the effective solution implements earth ground. Your UPS does not. We did not just reduce failures. Failures had to be completely eliminated. No damage even from direct lightning strikes. Only UPS that met that criteria is located at the service entrance within feet of earth ground. Or we obtain an equivalent solution by earthing a 'whole house' protector. In every case – and as quoted from the NSIT – the effective solution means proper earthing.

We did not learn by simply 'trying this and trying that' aggressively. We first learned the science. Demanded numbers. Even wire impedance is a significant factor. Your UPS without that shot and dedicated connection to earth would be insufficient. And probably costs more money. But even worse – its numbers do not even claim what you would have it do.

A UPS especially without the always required earthing will do one thing successfully. Provide temporary power during blackouts. That does not provide hardware protection. One need only read manufacturer spec numbers to appreciate same.

So that the rare and destructive transient does not also harm that UPS, or to accomplish what is well proven by over 100 years of knowledge; install and properly earth one ‘whole house’ protector. A protector that costs about $1 per protected appliance. Why? Hardware protection is only as effective as the earthing – where destructive energy must be harmlessly absorbed.

Your point about whole house surge protection and adequate house grounding are well taken. However UPS systems are complimentary and handle significant power fluctuations over extended periods. Most including mine offer as much grounding of damaging spikes as any plug in surge protector.

So UPS systems and stable voltage control are complimentary with whole house surge protection.

westom

10-21-2009, 09:27 AM

Your point about whole house surge protection and adequate house grounding are well taken. However UPS systems are complimentary and handle significant power fluctuations over extended periods.
How does it stabilize voltage fluctuations when it connects electronics directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode? No fluctuations are removed by a typical UPS. Typically it has a relay between AC mains and electronics. How does a relay remove fluctuations?

What does a typical UPS output look like? This 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode outputs two 200 volts square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. That is some of the 'dirtiest' electricity see by most appliances. Many believe a UPS 'cleans' power because popular myths are promoted by hearsay. Since electronics are so robust, that 'dirty' UPS power is simply ideal and acceptable to electronics.

That 'dirty' UPS power may be harmful to small electric motors and power strip protectors. But not harmful to electronics that are required even by international standards to be so robust.

A power strip protector is not earthed. That wall receptacle is not called earth ground. It is safety ground. Code calls it equipment ground. Receptacle safety ground is not earth ground.

Critical to protection is a low impedance connection. Wire thickness is not important. Wire length is critical. To be earthed, a protector must connect short (ie 'less than 10 feet'), ground wire must have no sharp bends, no splices, etc. Also a ground wire must not be inside metallic conduit and must be separated from other non-grounding wires. More electrical reasons why neither a power strip protector nor UPS are earthed.

If that power strip or UPS provides protection as claimed, then post manufacture spec numbers that make that claim for each type of surge. You cannot. The manufacturer does not claim that protection that others want to believe. Where are the specs numbers? Numbers are never provided. Try to find some yourself. At best, it only protects from a type of surge that typically causes no damage.

Again, view the specs. How does its few hundred joules stop and absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules. It has near zero protection. Near zero protection is promoted in color glossy sales brochures as surge protection. Then the naive believe it has massive protection. Ignore the numbers and we can even predict the second coming of Christ.

All appliances contain significant protection. For example, anything that a UPS would do must already exist inside electronics power supply. At best, that UPS's power supply is as robust as other electronics. But that is protection for the UPS's controller; not for appliances connected directly to AC mains via its relay.

Protection means destructive energy must be earthed before entering a building. Once inside, that energy will hunt for earth destructively via appliances. Defined previously was "to accomplish what is well proven by over 100 years of knowledge". Even 100 years ago, no protector was installed to stop or absorb surges. Suddenly $7 protectors selling for $25 and $150 will do that? Nothing stops the typically destructive surges - the surge that can overwhelm protection found in all appliances.

Even 100 years ago, effective protection was about earthing before that energy could enter a building. In facilities that must never suffer damage, no plug-in protector or UPS is used. Earthing is upgraded for even better protection.

What would a power strip protector or UPS attempt? Block or absorb the surge? Nonsense. Explains why that protector without the necessary earthing does not even claim protection in its numeric specs.

Provided are maybe six different reasons why your solutions are not effective. Why it did not work 100 years ago and is still not used anywhere that damage cannot happen. Protection has always been about where that energy gets absorbed. Protection is about a protector as close as possible to earth and farther from the protected appliance. Understood even 100 years ago: a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. In residential environments, an effective protector is connected less than 10 feet from single point earth ground. Every incoming wire in every cable must make that same short connection to the same electrode. Protection is about earthing - no about the protector.

TLS Guy

10-21-2009, 09:39 AM

westom

10-21-2009, 10:49 AM

Fortunately, I have not had to check the the ability of my four UPS devices to handle a lightening strike. However I can assure you they tightly control voltage, so in this regard you don't know what you are talking about. My UPS devices will not let voltage rise over 130 volts and will shave the voltage of it does and start to supplement the voltage from the battery, without going to full battery power, if the voltage drops below 108 volts.

Neither of which exists in your building. Otherwise you have numerous - a long list of - other appliances damaged due to 'massive voltage variations'. Where is the protection for all those appliances?

Electronics are required to operate normally at greater voltage variations. Whereas those voltage variations may be harmful to electric motors; those same voltage variations are normal operation for electronics. Where is the long list of damaged motorized appliances? It does not exist because you do not have massive voltage variations.

Your UPS is a straw man solution - twice over. It has solved something that does not exist and that is not destructive. Its function - to maintain power when during blackouts and extremist brownouts.

How low can voltage go and still be normal voltage for electronics? Incandescent lamps can dim to 50% intensity - normal operation voltage for electronics. How often do you lights dim that much?

What needs protection from voltages that low? Refrigerator. Furnace. Washing machine. Air conditioner.

Electronics need protection from the rare electrical anomaly that occurs maybe once every seven years. An anomaly that your UPS cannot protect from. And does not claim to protect from. You even said your UPS responds in milliseconds. Electronics need protection from something that is done in microseconds. Your UPS will not provide protection that all electronics require. Why do high reliability facilities not use your solution? Why do they earth a 'whole house' protector? Protection installed for what actually is harmful to electronics. Your UPS does not even claim to provide that protection.

I keep posting this. You keep ignoring it. Cite this destructive anomaly that your UPS does protect from. You said it takes milliseconds to respond. Your electronics need protection from something that occurs in microseconds The point being that you will not acknowledge engineering facts. You cannot even quote UPS manufacturer specs – that UPS does not claim relevant protection. The point: others are cautioned about your recommendations that only protect from things not harmful or destructive – for tens or 100 times more money.

Electronics require a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Even electronics inside your UPS needs that protection.

TLS Guy

10-21-2009, 11:13 AM

Neither of which exists in your building. Otherwise you have numerous - a long list of - other appliances damaged due to 'massive voltage variations'. Where is the protection for all those appliances?

Electronics are required to operate normally at greater voltage variations. Whereas those voltage variations may be harmful to electric motors; those same voltage variations are normal operation for electronics. Where is the long list of damaged motorized appliances? It does not exist because you do not have massive voltage variations.

Your UPS is a straw man solution - twice over. It has solved something that does not exist and that is not destructive. Its function - to maintain power when during blackouts and extremist brownouts.

How low can voltage go and still be normal voltage for electronics? Incandescent lamps can dim to 50% intensity - normal operation voltage for electronics. How often do you lights dim that much?

What needs protection from voltages that low? Refrigerator. Furnace. Washing machine. Air conditioner.

Electronics need protection from the rare electrical anomaly that occurs maybe once every seven years. An anomaly that your UPS cannot protect from. And does not claim to protect from. You even said your UPS responds in milliseconds. Electronics need protection from something that is done in microseconds. Your UPS will not provide protection that all electronics require. Why do high reliability facilities not use your solution? Why do they earth a 'whole house' protector? Protection installed for what actually is harmful to electronics. Your UPS does not even claim to provide that protection.

I keep posting this. You keep ignoring it. Cite this destructive anomaly that your UPS does protect from. You said it takes milliseconds to respond. Your electronics need protection from something that occurs in microseconds The point being that you will not acknowledge engineering facts. You cannot even quote UPS manufacturer specs – that UPS does not claim relevant protection. The point: others are cautioned about your recommendations that only protect from things not harmful or destructive – for tens or 100 times more money.

Electronics require a properly earthed 'whole house' protector. Even electronics inside your UPS needs that protection.

Again not so! The lower end electronic devices are vulnerable. My Direct TV HD DVRs are a case in point. My studio unit was always powered from a UPS. No lockups, and no failure, in over two years now.

Downstairs unit had no UPS. Continuous lockups and failure of two units. I out a smart UPS on it and no lockups in a year now.

Those units by the way are renowned for lockups, there have been a number of posts here about it, and Direct TVs forum is littered with the issue.

So yes it does make a difference. Surge protectors and SMART UPS devices, not any old UPS, are complimentary. You seem to have some ridiculous axe to grind. Talk to any IT director of a bank or large hospital and they will set you straight in a hurry!

I have had enough of this now, and just will warn people that large junks of your posts are just plain erroneous.

alphaiii

10-21-2009, 02:33 PM

Read the specs for that unit. It has the same specifications found in a $7 surge protector selling in the grocery store. If they call it a power conditioner, then it can sell for a higher price? Yes.

If you need that solution, you need it for everything in the house. That means spending a whopping $1 per appliance for something that actually does provide some protection. Something that is routinely installed in any facility that cannot suffer damage. One 'whole house' protector.

If they put some fancy paint on a new box and get the electrically naive to recommend it, then it must be better? Then you must need it? View its specs numbers. It does not even claim to protect from the electrical anomaly that typically causes electronics damage.

While it's definitely debatable, and ultimately one's opinion as to whether an APC H15 is worth the price.... to say it is the same as $7 surge strip found in a grocery store is downright absurd.

Last I checked, I've yet to see a $7 surge strip that has any sort of voltage monitoring/regulation.

And how many of those surge strips give any real specs other than a joule rating (which isn't exactly the best indication of the level of protection they can provide, and is usually MUCH lower than the 5200J of the H15)? What peak current can they protect against? What is the clamping voltage and let through voltage? Where's the coax protection?

I'm not saying the H15 is the best value, and we could argue all day whether all of its "bells and whistles" are necessary or even of benefit.... and many would argue they are.

The point is...it's a very different piece of equipment from a typical el cheapo surge strip...

alphaiii

10-21-2009, 02:35 PM

Should've read the whole thread before posting... Looks like I jumped into an intense arguement here... :eek:

westom

10-22-2009, 01:20 AM

Last I checked, I've yet to see a $7 surge strip that has any sort of voltage monitoring/regulation.
And how many of those surge strips give any real specs other than a joule rating (which isn't exactly the best indication of the level of protection they can provide, and is usually MUCH lower than the 5200J of the H15)? What peak current can they protect against? What is the clamping voltage and let through voltage? Where's the coax protection?
How often each day is your TV or clock radio damaged by voltage variations? How often do they power off? Zero? Adjustments for AC main variations are routinely inside electronic appliances.

What does that APC H15 do? It is a UPS. It provides AC power when voltage drops so low as to threaten data - ie interrupt a TV show. How often does your AC drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to less than 50%? Voltage even lower should only cause a power off. That is the UPS's function - provide power during blackouts. Anything else already exists inside each electronic appliance.

Where is coax protection? Does that UPS stop transients? Then it also stops TV signals. Since major companies have rewired so many backwater operations, a coax cable should already have the world's best protection - without signal degradation. Same reason why cable companies recommend no protector on their cable. A short wire from cable to earth ground is superior coax protection. Well proven even by 100 years of experience and knowledge. Is your cable properly installed?

Coax protection means destructive energy is absorbed harmlessly in earth; does not enter the building. Even a power strip protector does virtually nothing. But again, 100 years of well proven experience.

Does not matter how many amps that power strip or UPS can conduct (which must be on the order of many tens of thousands). Without a short connection to earth, that current creates massive and destructive voltages. 20,000 amps times the higher voltage means destructive energy. 20,000 amp times near zero voltage (due to proper earthing) means near zero destructive energy inside the building. No appliance (or UPS) damage.

That effective solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. Also not found in power strip protectors. How much is that UPS for only one appliance? $650?

alphaiii

10-22-2009, 09:45 AM

How often each day is your TV or clock radio damaged by voltage variations? How often do they power off? Zero? Adjustments for AC main variations are routinely inside electronic appliances.

What does that APC H15 do? It is a UPS. It provides AC power when voltage drops so low as to threaten data - ie interrupt a TV show. How often does your AC drop so low that incandescent bulbs dim to less than 50%? Voltage even lower should only cause a power off. That is the UPS's function - provide power during blackouts. Anything else already exists inside each electronic appliance.

Where is coax protection? Does that UPS stop transients? Then it also stops TV signals. Since major companies have rewired so many backwater operations, a coax cable should already have the world's best protection - without signal degradation. Same reason why cable companies recommend no protector on their cable. A short wire from cable to earth ground is superior coax protection. Well proven even by 100 years of experience and knowledge. Is your cable properly installed?

Coax protection means destructive energy is absorbed harmlessly in earth; does not enter the building. Even a power strip protector does virtually nothing. But again, 100 years of well proven experience.

Does not matter how many amps that power strip or UPS can conduct (which must be on the order of many tens of thousands). Without a short connection to earth, that current creates massive and destructive voltages. 20,000 amps times the higher voltage means destructive energy. 20,000 amp times near zero voltage (due to proper earthing) means near zero destructive energy inside the building. No appliance (or UPS) damage.

That effective solution costs about $1 per protected appliance. Also not found in power strip protectors. How much is that UPS for only one appliance? $650?

The H15 is NOT a UPS. There was a thread (I believe) at AVS that described in much better detail than I could how the automatic voltage regulation works. In my dumbed down terms, it works to boost low voltage and trim high voltage to keep within a target range. It is not intended to only provide power during blackout...but is meant to help with problems of fluctuating voltages.

The J15/S15 have voltage regulation (in the same way as the H15) AND battery backup as well.

You argue that the projection for these voltage swings exists in electronic devices already... Then why do so many believe that extreme fluctuations are more of an issue than just blackouts followed by voltage surges when power is restored?

And just to throw it out there, I don't think anyone is naive enough to think any of these devices will protect from direct (or near direct) lightning strikes...

And I agree about the wire to ground being the PROPER way to protect across the coax line. But I guess I don't have as much faith as you that all of the incoming lines are properly grounded. Hell, despite building codes it's still sometimes an issue to find improper grounding in a home's wiring...so why should I believe the coax is going to always be grounded properly...just because the cable company says I shouldn't add any protection to their line??? Given the half-assed install jobs their techs routinely do...I don't put much stock in what they say. To me, it's worth having the added coax protection...this is of course assuming the equipment does effectively shunt the surges to the AC ground as claimed.

Anyway, the APC H15 cost me $130 brand new due to the closeout pricing on the silver models...I never would have even considered paying full retail, or even close to it. And given the crap I see selling for $60-70 (ahem, Monster surge protectors at Best Buy for example)... I see the H15 as a value.

I suppose it's up to everyone to decide where they stand on the whole surge protector, power conditioner, UPS debate. I didn't buy the H15 thinking it would "condition" the incoming power and make some magical difference in the audio or video in my system... I bought it as a means of protecting my equipment, that's all.

And let me add....I'm all for whole house protection installed by the electric company... Unfortunately, I still rent and won't stay put long enough for now that it's not worth...

westom

10-22-2009, 01:53 PM

You argue that the projection for these voltage swings exists in electronic devices already... Then why do so many believe that extreme fluctuations are more of an issue than just blackouts followed by voltage surges when power is restored?
Why did so many also believe Saddam had WMDs? An overwhelming minority who did not ignore the numbers knew no such evidence existed. Yet 7 out of 10 simply let their eyes glaze over when numbers arrive.

Show me the design standard that says low voltages and fluctuations are harmful. We designed this stuff. Charts (international standards) are bluntly clear about what must happen with each voltage. Any voltage between 120 VAC and 0 is either in the normal operation state or in another area that says, in capital letters, "No Damage Region".

Am I making this all up? Did I invent that phrase? Why do we even test electronic designs with a variac? Lower voltage to confirm it will work when incandescent bulbs are at less than 50% intensity. Do these tests cause harm? Of course not. We tests to confirm a voltage where electronics only power off. Now a majority without any training or experience will say we are wrong? How insulting.

Your's is an excellent question. Why do so many *know* when they did not even do this stuff? Ignored the numbers. Did not use a variac to make extreme voltage variations. How do they know when their conclusion only comes from hearsay and classic junk science reasoning?

Show me. Identify the electronic component damaged by extreme voltage variation. I would not believe what someone told me without that detail. Hearsay is a major source of that 'voltage fluctuation' fear.

OK. Nobody provided numbers. They just *knew* using wild speculation derived only from observation. IOW they knew using junk science reasoning. Instead, let’s view datasheets - facts. Numbers for typical electronics. View a datasheet for the CD40xx series CMOS: Acceptable voltage is anywhere from -0.5 to +20 volts:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets/208/108514_DS.pdf

Could that be any more extreme? Even a voltage less than a blackout - negative voltage - cause no damage. Numbers - what so many will so often ignore to entertain junk science conclusions.

More numbers. A later SN74HCxx series digital electronics from TI. Acceptable voltage is anywhere from -0.5 to 7 volts:
http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet2/d/0jlueuzgy7xfh1cxw8ucuasqi1yy.pdf

Again any voltage from negative to well above the operational 5 volts will not cause damage.

Show me. Identify the component damaged by low voltage. With numbers. Nobody does. And yet so many still believe the extreme voltage myth - when that AC mains voltage variation is only minor.

Again, numbers. How often does your incandescent bulb dim to 50% intensity? Then extreme voltage variations do not even exist. And still, many will insist extreme variations exist only because it explains what they want to believe. Only because hearsay told them what to believe.

Do we learn from history? Saddam only had WMDs for the exact same reason. Seven out of ten blindly believed what they were told rather than engage their brain, logical thinking, asking why, or viewing the numbers.

View numbers for that APC H15. Those are UPS specifications. It is a UPS. It does not claim any other useful function. All UPSes do AVR. Some do it better than others. But it is still a UPS.

But some companies promote myths to the naive, increase the price, then reap massive profits from the scam. Another 'Saddam WMD' example. Monster Cable labeled speaker wire. Defined on end for the speaker. If wire was reversed, then audio sound would be distorted - they said. Guess what. So many swore they could hear the difference. They believed the first thing they are told. Speaker wire has polarity? Of course not. Why did so many believe Monster Cable's myth? Why did so many spend $70 for $7 speaker wire? Seven out of ten will even let their eyes glaze over when the numbers arrive. Simply believe what they are first told to believe. Not bother to ask why. Not do any logical thinking.

Why do so many believe? Observation not tempered by first learning the underlying concepts is classic junk science. A violation what everyone was taught in junior high science. And what so many did to *know* Saddam had WMDs. Same is why so many *know* voltage fluctuations cause damage.

Show me the numbers. What component is damaged by those voltage fluctuations. Why is it damage? To know extreme variations cause damage without learning why? To know only from observation is classic junk science.

Your question is excellent. Why do so many know when facts say otherwise? Why do so many ignore what was even taught in junior high science to violate good logical thinking? Why do seven out of ten ignore numbers to believe myths and hearsay? I don’t know.

What does that APC claim to do? Read its numbers. It claims to provide power during blackouts and extreme brownouts. That UPS’s other functions already exist inside those appliances.

westom

10-22-2009, 01:58 PM

But I guess I don't have as much faith as you that all of the incoming lines are properly grounded. Hell, despite building codes it's still sometimes an issue to find improper grounding in a home's wiring...so why should I believe the coax is going to always be grounded properly...just because the cable company says I shouldn't add any protection to their line???
Faith has nothing to do with it. Only *you* are resposible for providing that ground. If you don't provide proper grounding, then the cable company cannot bond to superior protection.

So you install a protector as if that 'adds' to protection? Nonsense. Protection is only as good as what defines the protection layer. That protector is only as effective as its earth ground. They have you believing a myth that some cable protector will stop and absorb surge energy. Reality - it only degrades coax signals.

A potector without earth ground may even contribute to appliance damage. Example one: as engineers, we traced damage through electronics when that protector earthed a surge destructively through an adjacent appliance. Again, why do telcos want their protector as close to earth as possible ... and up to 50 meters separated from electronics?

Example two: Somehow, if you add a protecctor that has no earthing, then it will increase protection? Nonsense. From the NIST:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will
> work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in
> the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

NIST just defined your coax surge protectcor.

Example three: Norma defines another problem with a protector promoted by myth on 27 Dec 2008 in alt.fiftyplus entitled "The Power Outage":
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable
> man pulled a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire.
> The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because sparks
> and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.
A human safety threat too common with grossly undersized plug-in protectors promoted by hearsay. It did exactly what its numbers claim. No earth ground means your coax protector may earth that surge destructively via nearby appliances. So grossly undersized as to create a human safety threat. Most every fire department has seen similar examples.

And still you know it must add protection only because it is called a surge protector? Only because popular urban myth recommends it? Reality does not change when retail salesmen invent slogans. A protector is only as effective as its earth ground. You are responsible for providing earth ground.

You provide the secondary protection layer. A homeowner should also inspect the primary surge protection layer:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html
Each protection layer is defined by the only item that must always exist - earth ground. What is necessary so that protection already inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.