Cryo

<font color='#000000'>Everything from interconnects to AC outlets to vacuum tubes seem to benefit from cryo treatment. *Is there a scientific basis for this phenomenon? *</font>

[Clint DeBoer]

<font color='#008080'>Benefit how, exactly? What have you heard that leads to think that it makes the wire more transparent or accurate?</font>

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>Errr.........can some please enlighten an uneducated lout like me on the Cryo effect? I know that a/c polarity issue has some basis in it and have tried it out myself.</font>

<font color='#000000'>Claims of the benefit if cryo treatment are rampant in the audiophile community. *Almost everywhere you look there are vendors that sell cryo'd accessories to audiophiles. *It's not hard to find people who swear that the treated components sound better. *

Do I believe it? *No, but I'm trying to be diplomatic until I have done a little research on the issue. *

Here is what I do know:

1) Running gear at a few degrees above absolute zero significantly reduces electrical noise. *(e.g., receivers used by GTE on the huge 50' satellite dishes are chilled.) *However, when the temp. returns to normal, so does the noise.

2) Annealing metals at high temperature reduced internal stress, resulting in increased strength.

3) Places that actually do cryo treatment claim that metals are strengthened as a result of their treatment. *For example, one place claims that aluminum baseball bats will hit a ball farther after cryo treatment. *Are the claims valid? *I don't know.

What does this add up to for audio? *Hocus-pocus? Half truths? The power of suggestion? *Or is there some science behind the claims that I am not aware of?</font>

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'>This is interesting stuff. Thanks for the info.</font>

<font color='#000000'>There's a tremendous benefit to cryo treatment. Unfortunately it's not for you but for the folks who do the cryo. There is no scientific evidence that whatever changes occurr to wires, CD's, or Ted Williams, translate to audible sonic benefits. It's real easy for advocates of the cryo treatment to say they hear a &quot;dramatic&quot; difference in the sound of their components, but that's not proof. Some people see the Loch Ness monster too.</font>

<font color='#000000'>I've researched this topic to great lengths by talking with cryo-labs, going to Universities and meeting with Materials Experts, reading Engineering Text Books on Materials, taking many Materials classes during my years as a Mechanical Engineering Student, and looking all over the Internet, and I STILL find NO conclusive evidence or even mention of the fact that cryo-freezing is beneficial to electrical properties of cables. &nbsp;

In fact, the only companies that talk about cryo-freezing cables are a handful of exotic cable manufacturers. &nbsp;Is this a strange coincidence?

The reason why these companies are applying cryo-freezing to cables is because they are implementing something that is valid for stress relief, then distorting the facts, twisting the truth and applying it to electric current. &nbsp;Folks, the two are completely separate and different.

First of all, not all metals are stress relieved at cryogenic temperatures. &nbsp;Copper is one such metal that only has marginal, at best, mechanical benefit from cryo-freezing. &nbsp;Secondly, Cryo-freezing is primarily used as a form of stress relieving certain metallic objects that have gone through an agitated form of fabrication. &nbsp;Other forms of stress relief include heating and annealing, shot blasting or sand blasting, and heating and vibrating. &nbsp;The method selected is dependant on the material and the desired result. &nbsp;

As an example of something that is benefited by stress relieving via cryo-freezing, let’s consider a brass instrument, such as a trumpet or saxophone. &nbsp;Brass instruments are forged into shape and during that process internal stresses in the material develop in areas that have gone through substantial deformation and/or bending. &nbsp;A brass instruments tonal quality is dependant on vibration of the instrument which can be characterized as the sonic resonance of the instrument. &nbsp;The stresses within the material which froms during the forging process slightly alter the instruments sonic resonance, but NOT SIGNIFICANTLY. &nbsp;There can be a marginal improvement to the tonal quality of a brass instrument by stress relieving the instrument either through heat (which can be detrimental to other parts of the instrument) or by cryo-freezing. &nbsp;For example, after a 48-hour cryogenic temperature soak in liquid nitrogen, and a very slow warming process, the sonic resonance of the instrument slightly improves as the stress is partially relieved in localized areas of high stress. &nbsp;As sound is formed during blowing through and vibrating the instrument there can be a very marginal improvement to the tonal qualities of that instrument which may be noted by some with a good ear.

PLEASE, OH PLEASE NOTE: &nbsp;There is NO/ZERO/ZIP/NADA change in the electrical properties of the material. &nbsp;As cables are characterized by resistance, inductance and capacitance (also known as R L C), and there is NO measurable changes to these values, their ability to carry a signal remains unaltered before and after cryo-freezing. &nbsp;

As for proof, ask ANY of the cable companies who perform cryo-treatments on their cables to show you measurements relating to a change in resistance, inductance or capacitance. &nbsp;What you’ll get instead is a total BS story about how it’s not measurable and the benefit is accomplished on a microscopic level by the improvement to the micro structure of the material. &nbsp;Well, since electrons don't give a rip about the micro structure of the material, there is NO validity to these claims. &nbsp;You can stress relieve a cable all you want via cryo-freezing, but the electrons are still going to only react to resistance, inductance and capacitance, not internal stresses and micro structure.

In conclusion, there is NO benefit in cryo-freezing anything by which the performance is based on electrical properties. &nbsp;You can successfully cryo-freeze brass instruments, guitar strings, mechanical parts that you wish to improve the fatigue life on, and other assorted goodies that may benefit from stress relief, but in no way, shape or form, is anything changed electrically, thereby eliminating any possible benefit to cryo-freezing your cables. &nbsp;So save your money and avoid ANY and ALL cable companies who promote such nonsense.</font>

[Dan Banquer]

<font color='#000000'>Years ago, Clark Johnsen of The Listening Studio here in Boston and now a writer for Positive Feedback was claiming that by cryo treating CD's you get rid of a 825 Hz resonance that was supposedly inherent to all CD's. I handed one Enya CD to him for this treatment and compared it to the same Enya CD I went out and purchased. To this day I can't hear a difference between the two CD's. By High End Audiophile standards I am obviously deaf.</font>

[Yamahaluver]

<font color='#0000FF'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Dan Banquer : Years ago, Clark Johnsen of The Listening Studio here in Boston and now a writer for Positive Feedback was claiming that by cryo treating CD's you get rid of a 825 Hz resonance that was supposedly inherent to all CD's. I handed one Enya CD to him for this treatment and compared it to the same Enya CD I went out and purchased. To this day I can't hear a difference between the two CD's. By High End Audiophile standards I am obviously deaf.
I guess that puts me in the same league as you Dan. Totally deaf when it comes to subtle things others claim to hear. <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

Real mid-fi or low-fi hearing.</font>

<font color='#000000'><img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

I am a metallurgist. &nbsp;I have worked in the cryogenic field for over 25 years. &nbsp;Claims of benefits by cryo treatment are all over the map. &nbsp;The only really valid metallurgical explanation is cryogenic treatment to reduce what is called retained austenite structure in an iron based alloy. &nbsp;As carbon steel product is quickly quenched from its heat treat temperature it produces a structure called martensite. &nbsp;Once that metal reaches room temperature it will have attained an incomplete martensitic structure with the remainder called retained austenite. &nbsp;Continuing that temperature trace to cryogenic temperatures continues to force more of that austenite to the martensitic structure. &nbsp;This has the effect, particularly on such items as screwdrivers tips, nail sets, punches, etc. of providing aded toughness to the structure.

I design and sell a growing number of cryogenic treatment systems and process safety handling guideline information to the materials processing market. It is a part of the overall body of industrial gas applications technology I have been involved with since college.

The claims of superior product performance can be real in the case I mention above but the claims can also be quite dubious and sometimes downright laughable (in private, not in front of a paying customer). &nbsp;However, the market demand by these customer's customers seems to support much of it. &nbsp;A lot of it is the same snake oil claims as you will get from reading the gooble-de-gook from cable or interconnect manufacturers. &nbsp;Usually a pinch of science pulled in from some extreme case and claimed to fit your specific needs and concerns. &nbsp;In most cases. you'd never notice but it does have the impact of positioning a perception that it does somehow matter. &nbsp;

Read this website's info on speaker cabling and interconnects, quite enlightening and about as straighforward and simple for the layperson to understand as can be.

Would I take cabling or interconnects and drop them in a free bath of LIN (liquid nitrogen)? &nbsp;Yes, I would and then go about trying forever to find out exactly what it was that changed other than the fact that I had sent my cables on a brief cryogenic excursion to depths fairly close to where most molecular activity has ceased. &nbsp;Notice I said &quot;FREE&quot; LIN. <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':cool:'></font>

<font color='#000000'>I operate a cryogenic company and I have Cryo treated complete systems with no harm done to them...
As for the sound quality changes I will get a few clients to share their views.
I am doing a few tests with some high-end cable companies to see if this process DOES OR DOES NOT
Enhance the sound quality. So far the testing is ....yes a change and no change at all. I will keep you posted on the end result!</font>

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Cryo-Guy;

I would like to see some of these companies test results. &nbsp;I have found through experience with dealing with many of these exotic cable companies that few of them have degreed staffed engineers, and even fewer of them have the proper test equipment to do this type of analysis.

While we welcome customer feedback based on their perceived experiences in sonic changes, we would be more interested in objective measurable data. &nbsp;Thanks.</font>

<font color='#000000'>Gene,
You are correct...I have talked to the cable companies and only one has a any sort of degree (so far), this person worked in the military in the classified ballistic end of it and the military used cryogenics for everything from treating electrical wires to metal components.
I am working with a university student who is doing his thesis on cryogenic tempering of materials but his thesis is on only two materials...D2 and 4140. I will see if he can slide in some wire for a complete T.E.M. (transmission electron microscope) exam with some before and after pictures along with resistance, power load tests. (any other test suggestions?)
My Cryo business is with tool steels, motors etc...and the process works tremendously (with the scientific data to prove it) but with cables all I have been told and read is it is mostly &quot;earsay&quot; so I would like to back it with some scientific evidence. Until proven I will not promote or go any further with Cryo wires since I am not a snake oil salesman just to make a buck.
I will do them if a client wants them done but I do not actively go out and promote this field but more and more are asking me to do this for them.....But why?</font>

[Clint DeBoer]

<font color='#008080'>hehe... &quot;earsay&quot;. &nbsp;I like that!</font>

<font color='#000000'>I have done some experiments with Cryo as well as some listening tests. &nbsp;I manufacture cables, but I take a more scientific approach to this. What I have found is that direct immersion of silver wire definitely damages the crystal structure, resulting in poor sound and measurable reflections at MHz frequencies. &nbsp;This appears to create sibilance at audio frequencies. &nbsp;I have not done the same test using the slow cooling, slow warming process that is typical of treatments done by some cable manufacturers. &nbsp;It is my belief that any type of cryo treatment is not beneficial to pure metals with well-organized crystal lattice. &nbsp;You can see the TDT plots on the Audio FAQ page of my website:
My Webpage (http://www.empiricalaudio.com)

My brother is a metallurgist with 25 years experience and the best man at my wedding and a lifelong friend is the head of the cryo materials research lab at NIST in Boulder. &nbsp;Neither os these experts seem to think that this treatment woudl be beneficial.

I have noticed with metals that are not pure, such as outlets that have brass alloys with silver plating, that Cryo treatment does seem to improve the transient current response - resulting in more dynamics and detail rendering. &nbsp;This conclusion is based strictly on my own listening tests, no measurements.</font>

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Audioeng;

Interesting feedback, however without confirmation with measurements, I would be quite skeptical about anyone who claims they can hear a difference. &nbsp;Almost no speaker cable design would suffer ill effects of transient response, and certainly cryo treating a cable would be even more insignificant. &nbsp;If one cannot measure a difference in transient response, it certainly can not audible. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'></font>

<font color='#000000'>&quot;&quot;If one cannot measure a difference in transient response, it certainly can not audible.&quot;&quot;GDS

Unless, of course, what one is trying to test cannot be seen with the tests that are being done.

Hi Gene...


Cheers, John</font>

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Hi John;

What's there to look for? &nbsp;If one claims the &quot;transient&quot; response of Cable A is better than Cable B, then a simple 1/10kHz square wave (which has infinitely larger rise/fall times then music) would reveal this difference.

Also, if one claims an improvement in this area, certainly they can provide objective proof, else how could they make that claim in the first place?</font>

<font color='#000000'>&quot;&quot;What's there to look for? &nbsp;If one claims the &quot;transient&quot; response of Cable A is better than Cable B, then a simple 1/10kHz square wave (which has infinitely larger rise/fall times then music) would reveal this difference.&quot;&quot;GDS

I don't yet know what's there to look for, if I did, we wouldn't be having this conversation.. &nbsp;The claim of &nbsp;&quot;transient response&quot; improvement is not based on electrical measurement, but on someone's perceived improvements, described or attributed as &quot;transient response&quot;. &nbsp;Viewer and tester may actually have different definitions.

&quot;&quot;Also, if one claims an improvement in this area, certainly they can provide objective proof, else how could they make that claim in the first place?&quot;&quot;GDS

The claim was based on perception. &nbsp;It is quite easy for a person to hear a difference, but be unable to qualify it or measure it. &nbsp;Just as a formula 1 driver may feel the difference between rubber formulations during cornering, but be unable to quantify it in terms of durometers (measure of hardness). (actually, in this day and age, the drivers are probably better able to explain the cornering in terms of durometers, but the point s/b clear)

I 've seen no credible information to explain how cryo could affect wires, tubes, anything audio (other than completing the martensitic transformation in steel or comparable transformations in other alloys). &nbsp;I've seen lots of floobydust, but no reality yet.

Although I can discount the hairball explanations I see a lot of, I still don't think our testing capabilities are all encompassing..well, at least mine..

As for square waves..Reconstruction of one using harmonics is interesting (Gibbs), and excitation with one is to use purely harmonic info, and resolution of multitone issues cannot be viewed if the separate tones are mathematically related.

As an example, if all the leading and trailing edges are shifted 20 uSec, how would you know? &nbsp;If the scope form has any overshoot or ringing, was it your setup?

A coupla non related sines would work better.

Cheers, John</font>

[audioengr]

<font color='#000000'>Why don't you guys just buy an outlet that is cryo treated and one that is not and compare the two. *That's what I did. *The difference was obvious to me..... *as a result I only sell the cryo treated ones. *I don't claim to understand it, I just have my theories.

As for measurement, just try to measure differences in outlets. *Very difficult. *You need to put some high-currents with very fast transients through them. *I don't know of any tool that will do this short of a high-power amplifier. *Even programmable loads will not do this well. *I suppose that you could put an outlet in series with a speaker cable and a 4-ohm load and play square-waves through it.....but the system needs to have B/W near 1MHz for meaningful results.

Besides, even if I could measure a difference, I could not prove that this is audible... *what's the use??</font>

<font color='#000000'>&quot;&quot;Besides, even if I could measure a difference, I could not prove that this is audible... &nbsp;what's the use?? &quot;&quot;AE

Because if you can measure a difference, and it proves to be the aspect that makes it sound better, then an engineer can optimize that aspect..Thereby making better sounding product in a consistent manner.

When transistor die attach evolved, it was known that there was a difference between units, but you couldn't see any difference between them..When theory advanced enough that a measurement system could be developed where die attach could actually be measured electrically, bingo..100 % known good units...And, as an added bonus, 100 % process control feedback.

If a difference exists, it will eventually be found..That's the reason I hit the forums.
As for testing outlets..I'd concentrate on actual equipment pluggged into it, and try to find out how the outlet affects the equipment.

But I'm just real wary of the pseudo-science..Many times, belief in such sets the art back decades..

Cheers, John</font>

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Something important to note:

Just because one believes they hear a difference doesn't necessarily mean there actually is a difference. *Its all about perception. *If one is conditioned to believe they will hear a difference prior to listening themselves, than they may certainly perceive that difference based on already instilled prejudices. *What makes it even more challenging, is cable sonic differences are very minuet between well designed products. *Taking an identical product and comparing sonics between a cryo vs uncryo treated version is even more minuet if *at all audible, let alone measurable.

Never lose sight of the fact that there are many more important variables than cables in a high performance audio system that have significantly more impact than a cable change (IE. Room treatment, speaker placement, proper system calibration, etc). *I have found that most people who enjoy endlessly debating cable sonics usually don't have these basic issues optimized in their own systems. * <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'></font>

<font color='#000000'>&quot;&quot;Just because one believes they hear a difference doesn't necessarily mean there actually is a difference.&quot;&quot;GDS

It's a two by two state diagram..

Hear a diff/ &nbsp;don't hear a diff..

Is a diff/ &nbsp; &nbsp;Is no diff..

DBT stats can be used to try to sort it out.

Your statement:

&quot;&quot;What makes it even more challenging, is cable sonic differences are very minuet between well designed products. &nbsp;Taking an identical product and comparing sonics between a cryo vs uncryo treated version is even more minuet if &nbsp;at all audible, let alone measurable.&quot;&quot;

is quite true. &nbsp;Complicated by the question&quot;what is it we look for electrically&quot;?

Cheers, John</font>

[rode]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> ... Complicated by the question&quot;what is it we look for electrically&quot;?</td></tr></table>

For any cable at audio frequencies, we all know what to look for. Resistance, Inductance and Capacitance. The frequency response and power loss is easily measured at any power level with a known amplifier, and that will take R and L into consideration, as well as skin effect (if you think it's relevant).

Very accurate comparisons can be made with a slightly modified version of a Wheatstone bridge. By this means, any variation or change can be readily identified by virtue of the loss of null (which is extraordinarily sensitive), although the reasons for the change may not be readily apparent without very sensitive measurement equipment.

The only other &quot;change&quot; might be in distortion levels, but I know of no (sane) research that has ever proven measurable distortion in a metallic conductor - perish the thought! &nbsp;Even the distortion meter and generator would have to be wired with magic to eliminate the distortion in their internal wiring.

I think this discussion is pushing the boundaries of sanity. Differences are common, and are almost always a question of perception - a DBT will reveal that there is usually no discernable difference (with cables of equivalent RLC) and a relatively benign speaker load will allow most cables of almost any construction (that isn't just crazy) to sound indistinguishable in a DBT.

Haven't these topics been done to death already? They have been covered, re-covered, regurgitated and expounded ad nauseum. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':cool:'></font>

<font color='#000000'>I'd like to add something to the debate. &nbsp;

I spend a considerable amount of time with Engineers at Lockheed Martin, Harris, Northrop Grumman and Raytheon. &nbsp;These guys are working on cutting edge technology with combat vision systems, radar sensor, infrared systems and all sorts of complex electronics. &nbsp;They deal with both audio and high frequencies on the order of over 1GHz; way above and beyond audio. &nbsp;Furthermore, they contiunally try to improve performance and minimize loss in improve bandwidth in order to prevent video signal black out during combat. &nbsp;Contrary to most people views, these companies are spending a great deal of time in R&amp;D using cutting edge designs.

Why is it that none of the Engineers in the Aerospace industry, working on the latest technology with the most updated equipment available, ever cryo-freeze cables or concern themselves with strand jumping?

I've broached both these subjects with some of the high level RF-Engineers and systems designer during friendly discussions, and they litterally wet themselves when I tell them about what has become of the audio cable industry. &nbsp;

Kid Charlemagne</font>

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Kid;

The truth of the matter is exotic cable vendors sometimes have to stretch the truths and bend them towards their will to justify reasons that make their products &quot;better&quot; or different. *After all, if cable vendors were to come out and say $1/ft 10-12AWG wire is all you need for audio applications, where would their profit margins go? *

In addition, many audiophiles won't accept this, despite unequivocal evidence presented. *Many simply feel if it is too cheap, it can't be good.

Am I being too cynical?

*<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'></font>

<font color='#000000'>&quot;&quot;For any cable at audio frequencies, we all know what to look for. Resistance, Inductance and Capacitance. The frequency response and power loss is easily measured at any power level with a known amplifier, and that will take R and L into consideration, as well as skin effect (if you think it's relevant).&quot;&quot;RE

Hi Rod..been a while..

Can you show me how much temporal shift occurs when a slew rate changes, forcing the stored energy within the wire to go away? &nbsp;Can you detail the difference between the energy storage of a #12 wire at 50 hz vs one at 10Khz, and what happens when the two are superimposed?? &nbsp;I really wish I could put pictures here..

I can't.. &nbsp;But, if the diff exceeds 20 usec, humans can hear it in spatial image location.. I don't know if that .03 microhenry difference makes a difference...

Skin effect is a frequency dependent effect, where the current profile changes, depending on the rate of change of the current(not frequency, as is normally considered.). &nbsp;As such, one must consider the difference between the energy storage as a result of current density profile. &nbsp;I'm afraid I have to draw something to really make myself clear...


&quot;&quot;Why is it that none of the Engineers in the Aerospace industry, working on the latest technology with the most updated equipment available, ever cryo-freeze cables or concern themselves with strand jumping?&quot;&quot;KC

I've no understanding of how cryo could do anything to affect copper...and I work with superconducting magnets, both liquid helium and liquid nitrogen..

But strand jumping.....If your engineering friends would like to understand that, send them to me, and I'll explain it to them..Trust me (actually, don't trust me, listen to your friends, after they talk to me..). &nbsp;It exists..It has to..for skinning to occur.

BTW...to answer your question...because they don't have to. &nbsp;It has no bearing on what they do. &nbsp;They are concerned either with power transfer, at constant frequency, or hf stuff, where the full bandwidth of signal is skinning heavily.

Cheers, John</font>

<font color='#000000'>Boy, I really made that clear...:-)

&quot;&quot;Skin effect is a frequency dependent effect, where the current profile changes, depending on the rate of change of the current(not frequency, as is normally considered.). &quot;&quot;

Skin effect is always taught as a frequency dependent effect, with sine wave excitation used as the example....It is the conductor's reaction to a change in current (slew rate).

Sorry bout that..

Cheers, John</font>

[gene]

<font color='#000000'>Hi John;

Based on our work together, you should know that RLC cable metrics cause group delay changes in the 10-100's &nbsp;nsec range, even with some of the worst measured cables. &nbsp;This is on an order of 100-1000 time less than is perceivable by the human ear.

As for Skin Effect, I thought we beat that with a rubber hose. &nbsp;I am going to be bold here. &nbsp;

SKIN EFFECT HAS NO AUDIBLE RELEVANCE ON SPEAKER CABLES.

If there is a mechanism other than frequency dependence of RLC of a cable causing audible changes in cables, then one should find another reason since the classical and proven models of Skin Effect prove that it can't be the cause.

Look as all of my data. &nbsp;If anythin skin effect helps the upper frequency extremes by reducing internal inductance. &nbsp;The increase in AC resistance was far less than I calculated, probably since all of the cables I evaluated were stranded and my modeling was based on solid core. &nbsp;

Strand jumping does happen, no argument there. &nbsp;Does it lead to audible distortion? &nbsp;Most likely not. &nbsp;Has anyone accurately ever measured this distortion? &nbsp;Not to my knowledge. &nbsp;Is there any test equipment sensitive enough to measure it? &nbsp;You got me. &nbsp;However, I have used an Audio Precision One (&gt;120dB resolution) and have seen no measurable distortion on a stranded wire. &nbsp;No cable vendor ever furnished any credible evidence to support this issue.

Cables have become way too overhyped IMO. &nbsp;As the president of an Audio website, it troubles me to see so much fruitless and un-quantifiable claims about trivial issues for the intended application. &nbsp;Audiophiles sometimes lose sight that a majority of hardware vendors have problems designing flexible and usable preamp/processors, low noise amplifiers, accurate loudspeakers, buttressed with recording engineers spitting out distorted and overcompressed CD's, while most audiophiles don't even consider the importance of an acoustically well treated room. &nbsp;




<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('></font>

[Clint DeBoer]

<font color='#008080'>John,

I know you enjoy the banter - but I think this exchange is... (I'll put it gently) semantic. You have presented some great input in the past that makes me think that you are just playing devil's advocate right now.

And we all know what eventually happens to the devil. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':;):'></font>

<font color='#000000'>&quot;&quot;that makes me think that you are just playing devil's advocate right now.&quot;&quot;Hawk

You obviously don't know me..

&quot;&quot;I am going to be bold here. &nbsp;
SKIN EFFECT HAS NO AUDIBLE RELEVANCE ON SPEAKER CABLES&quot;&quot;GDS

I am unable to prove you wrong...yet..perhaps never, but not for lack of trying..

None of the equipment you have ever used is capable of looking for that which I hypothesize..I have searched, to no avail.

I look for(actually, am designing) a piece of test equipment which is capable of watching the hf phase shift when a lf signal is introduced. &nbsp;That is the ramification of skin effect..Not a simple change in current profile vs frequency, but the overall energy distribution as a result of slew rate changes..

&quot;&quot;classical and proven models of Skin Effect prove that it can't be the cause&quot;&quot;GDS

The classical form of the skin effect equations show that cross sectional resistance as a result of current density profile changes is not significant.

However, the profile of a hf signal, with the current tending towards the surface, has a different energy profile and storage. &nbsp;Think about it...A current profile that is uniform across the conductor, vs a profile which tends towards the surface. &nbsp;The shift between profiles requires energy..either a gain, or a loss..Because the current has to cross a magnetic field to do so..

As for KC's friends...you believe strand jumping occurs, they don't ...matter of understanding..They will, once they realise the issue..

For cryo, the origional topic...my contention is...I have nothing to support it technically..but I fear my technical knowledge is rather limited..so I cannot state an absolute..

Cheers, John</font>

[rode]

<font color='#000000'><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I am unable to prove you wrong...yet..perhaps never, but not for lack of trying.. (JN)</td></tr></table>

In an earlier post, I suggested a Wheatstone bridge, which allows a complete null. &nbsp;Now, once you can obtain a perfect null (maybe with a different method, such as phase compensated substraction), then you inject (and null out) a 400Hz tone for example. There is nothing there at all if the null is done well enough.

Then, do the same with a 20kHz tone (leaving the other nulling circuit in place). You will probably need to reiterate these static tests, since there will be some interaction between the nulling circuits.

Now, apply both tones at once. &nbsp;Do you honestly expect to see additional &quot;sideband&quot; signals because of this?

If your skin effect theory is right, then it should be obvious - some of the 400Hz tone should re-appear because the null is no longer perfect - its amplitude must change according to your theory. &nbsp;Likewise, the amplitude of the 20kHz tone should also be modulated.

This test would need to be run with extremely short wires and a 10m length to make sure that there are no anomolies caused by the test setup itself.

What percentage chance do you reckon on that you will see the effects that you claim will occur? (i.e. modulation, or possibly sideband generation).

My guess is 0%, and I'd be interested to hear yours.

For any of the above to reveal modulation, sidebands or any other similar phenomenon, the metallic conductors used must posess some degree of non-linearity (i.e. distortion).

Want to revise your guess? &nbsp; <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':cool:'></font>

<font color='#000000'>&quot;&quot;Want to revise your guess?&quot;&quot; RE

Nope..

&quot;&quot;Now, apply both tones at once. &nbsp;Do you honestly expect to see additional &quot;sideband&quot; signals because of this?&quot;&quot;RE

Nope..

&quot;&quot;If your skin effect theory is right, then it should be obvious - some of the 400Hz tone should re-appear because the null is no longer perfect - its amplitude must change according to your theory. &nbsp;Likewise, the amplitude of the 20kHz tone should also be modulated.&quot;&quot;RE

Nope..and Yep..

&quot;&quot;For any of the above to reveal modulation, sidebands or any other similar phenomenon, the metallic conductors used must posess some degree of non-linearity (i.e. distortion).&quot;&quot;

Hmmm...yep and nope..

Excellent thinking..I'm afraid I don't recall that post you mention.

What my hypothesis expects to see is phase shift of the hf signal, so your nulling method should show the hf signal when the lf signal is introduced. &nbsp;But, off the cuff, I don't think there will be any new frequencies introduced, that would have been picked up by IM test hardware long ago.

The collapse of the internal inductance component of the wires (.03 uhenry per foot, pair, max) when slew rate suddenly rises requires a spacial re-alignment of the current within the conductor. &nbsp;That requires energy. &nbsp;I just don't know how that energy manifests during the re-distribution, either while going to the hf profile, or the lf profile..and I don't know if the energy required is significant enough to be measured..

Hey, I said it's a hypothesis..And I've predicted a testable effect..That's what we're supposed to be doing..It's pissin in the wind to predict an untestable one.

My slant on testing is to run a cable with a really good load, and use a very good IA pair, one at each end of the cable. &nbsp;Connecting the IA to the cable means I have to worry about field intercept issues. &nbsp;I've got the load covered, but still wrestle with the amp end pickup. &nbsp;But the procedure requires the exact same two tone component sequence you mention.

&quot;&quot;My guess is 0%, and I'd be interested to hear yours.&quot;&quot;RE

Non zero..but possibly in the mud, way below what I can measure. &nbsp;The best case would be getting a result that others can try to verify or refute, the worst case, is I set an upper bound on the effect, that being the resolution of my setup.

And don't forget, we're talking about human audibility of skin effect here. &nbsp;So, to find temporal shifting below 5 to 10 microseconds would be an academic find, not really an audible one.

Cheers, John</font>

[Clint DeBoer]

<font color='#008080'>Better run these tests in a vacuum as well... just to be safe. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.audioholics.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'></font>

<font color='#000000'>The dielectric constant of a vacuum is of no concern here..nor the anbient temp, nor.........Oh....a joke!!! &nbsp;Geeze, don't kidd like that...Hawksford may hear it..

The only vacuum around here is the one between my eyeglass holders, btw..

Cheers, John</font>