speaker wire and sound quality

[EddieG]

How much of a noticeable difference in sound quality between the "good" speaker cables (like the ones that have plugs) vs. the lesser expensive Radio Shack cables that have the copper and silver cables you have to strip the ends of to connect.

I guess Monoprice is the best source for decent cables for price??

Regarding the lesser expensive cables, are there differences within them as well? Do the crappy ones just make the speaker volume lower, or is it more than that?

Thanks!

[highfigh]

Go to the homepage and read the AV University topics or do a search here for threads about wire and cables. This has been debated to death. Just about any source for cable is a good source if you like the price and if you hear a drop in volume from a short run of speaker cable, it has a problem that has nothing to do with it's usual inherent characteristics.

The ones with plugs (usually RCA) may have a PVC jacket, which will corrode the copper but if the wire is tinned (it'll be silver in color), that won't happen, so it will still work if it's 16ga for short runs/low-mid power or 14ga for long runs/high power as long as the plugs are cut off. Zip cord works fine. If you aren't listening critically to the system, it won't matter at all but if you think you want to hear every little detail, the system is capable of revealing every detail and the room's acoustics are good for what you'll be playing, maybe somewhat more expensive cables are warranted. 99¢ interconnects and 4¢/ft speaker wire are likely to be inadequate.

[Midcow2]

Wire is wire. You cannot alter the laws of physics and electronics. The copper is the same; there are differences in the visual athetics, structure quality and the connector quality. Thier is eletrical shielding and dielectrics, but in atcual reality and audio aaccuity there is very little discenrable effect, except in the mind's ear :rolleyes:. For almost all speaker runs 14 gauge is sufficient ( obviously you should use 12 gauage for longet runs, e.g. 50ft).

Many people over spec their speaker wire, 12 gauge is fine, but when you start going 10 gauge and larger (even lower wire gauge number) you are being absurd!

Yes, Monoprice is a very good souce of quality inexpensive cables. Bluejeanscables is another good source, but a little more expensive.
You can buy more expnsive cables, but you exceed the economic point of diminishing return. For example, Pear Cable Company Anjou cable. ( I do not recommend paying this much!) http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_anjou_sc.htm

Many, many stores sell HT equipment at a good, very good and even sometimes a great price and the they try to make their money on extended warranties, usrge protectors, power distribution centers and connecting cables. Some especially push a type know as "an imaginary creature usually having various human and animal parts
giant: someone or something that is abnormally large and powerful
freak: a person or animal that is markedly unusual or deformed
a cruel wicked and inhuman person
(medicine) a grossly malformed and usually nonviable fetus" Monoprice, Blue Jeans Cables are much.much better choices.

Banana plugs on the end of cables, make them easily to connect securely and also to make a very good electrical connection. Sometimes spade connections make secure connections, but I would not recommend them because they can come loose and made a poor eletrical connection or even worse completely disconnect if the tightening nut loosens up.

Here is a very appropriate article of wire gauge size and speaker wire cost/quality:
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D06E1D61739F930A15751C1A96F9582 60

Good Luck and Wire Onward!

MidCow2

[DD66000]

The 12 ga UL rated that Blue Jeans Cable sells is very good wire at a very good price. You can buy it terminated (more money), or buy it in bulk, any length, cut it to lengths you need and just add your own banana plugs, or spades. I prefer the RS two piece, screw down banana plugs.

That BJC wire is a twisted pair, as opposed to being parallel pair. Much better than anything Monster sells and its cheaper.

[mperfct]

You can buy more expnsive cables, but you exceed the economic point of diminishing return. For example, Pear Cable Company Anjou cable. ( I do not recommend paying this much!) http://www.pearcable.com/sub_products_anjou_sc.htm

MidCow2

DUDE. :eek:

I wonder if they'll fit under the hood of my platinum-plated Ferrari F430?

[Tiguron]

I recently saw an ad for Monster speaker cable and couldn't believe the jargon they are willing to use to sell wire:

"Special Time Correct windings control distortion producing magnetic fields for a smoother, more natural re-creation of the music. Patented Magnetic Flux Tube construction provides improved bass response and dynamic range, important for home theatre and top quality music systems."

I have a physics degree and don't know what they are talking about.

[DD66000]

I recently saw an ad for Monster speaker cable and couldn't believe the jargon they are willing to use to sell wire:

"Special Time Correct windings control distortion producing magnetic fields for a smoother, more natural re-creation of the music. Patented Magnetic Flux Tube construction provides improved bass response and dynamic range, important for home theatre and top quality music systems."

I have a physics degree and don't know what they are talking about.

Monster is all BS, imo. Two years ago I was setting up a TT system in a spare BR and needed both wire and banana plugs. I went to RS, as I like using their two piece banana plugs.
They had a small roll of Monster XP wire, the one with a dielectric tube running through the center. It said it improved the upper end of the audio range.
Well the speakers I was using, I've had for 30 years, so I know just how they sound.
That XP wire made the highs sound harsh and brittle. So I ordered some wire from BJC. What a difference, those speakers were back to how they should sound.

[PSWii60]

Many people over spec their speaker wire, 12 gauge is fine, but when you start going 10 gauge and larger (even lower wire gauge number) you are being absurd!

I know i'm going to catch hell for saying this but when I built my theater I used 8AWG for all speakers:eek: This was only because I already had about 300ft of it and didn't see the need to purchase anything. Each conductor is about as thick as a pencil and I have 30ft runs. It works great and it will carry any amout of power I want to feed it! I do agree its absurd, but it would have been more absurd to buy something because it is labeled "speaker wire" when I already had so much of this. I'll upload a pic in a minute.

[Swerve]

How much of a noticeable difference in sound quality between the "good" speaker cables (like the ones that have plugs) vs. the lesser expensive Radio Shack cables that have the copper and silver cables you have to strip the ends of to connect.

I guess Monoprice is the best source for decent cables for price??

Regarding the lesser expensive cables, are there differences within them as well? Do the crappy ones just make the speaker volume lower, or is it more than that?

Thanks!

a must read: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

[cl35m]

One of the biggest differences I noticed in speaker wires was going from stranded to solid core. Some like stranded and some like solid core. Anti-cables sells solid core 12 ga wires lower than anyone unless you want to use romex like I do :)

12 ga is probably sufficient but I use 10 ga.

[MatthewB.]

Moon rocks, people Moon rocks (oh yeah and a quarter on the corner of each speaker) ;)

Yeah I love Monster products, I recall a paper I read where the author cut standard lamp cord cable and monster cable and the the monster on all apearances was thicker, it was the shielding that was thicker but inside was standard 24 gauge (tiny) wire, while the lamp cord was 16 gauge.

Anything 16 guage or larger (smaller number) will work just fine and anything over long runs and you should get into 14, 12 or 10 gauge. yes it makes a big difference in sound quality, going from 24 gauge to 16 gauge. Going from 16 to 14 and I doubt you would even notice.

Matt (whose got the green magic marker at the ready for his CD's) :p

[lsiberian]

I'm still pissed about having a ten gauge wire one side and a 16 on the other. Plust what the crap is the plastic tube in the middle?

I call it a way to cut costs. But maybe that's just me.

[PSWii60]

Here is the 8AWG I ran to everything, Its overkill, but its great stuff.
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq168/momoshowcar/DSC_0398.jpg
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq168/momoshowcar/DSC_0393.jpg

[Alex2507]

Here is the 8AWG I ran to everything, Its overkill, but its great stuff.
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq168/momoshowcar/DSC_0398.jpg
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq168/momoshowcar/DSC_0393.jpg

The high end roll off due to the added capacitance must be killing your high frequencies.
Can you still hear cymbals on your system? :rolleyes:
Just funnin'. :)

[jamie2112]

I recently saw an ad for Monster speaker cable and couldn't believe the jargon they are willing to use to sell wire:

"Special Time Correct windings control distortion producing magnetic fields for a smoother, more natural re-creation of the music. Patented Magnetic Flux Tube construction provides improved bass response and dynamic range, important for home theatre and top quality music systems."

I have a physics degree and don't know what they are talking about.

You don't need to have a degree to figure out how full of crap mc is.....:D That makes me feel better though if you say that...

[PSWii60]

Uh...I guess... I never noticed a difference between now and when I was using 12AWG and they were less than 10ft from the source. Please elaborate though:confused:

[Alex2507]

Uh...I guess... I never noticed a difference between now and when I was using 12AWG and they were less than 10ft from the source. Please elaborate though:confused:

The :rolleyes: is for sarcasm and just funnin' means just kidding.

[PSWii60]

You monkey you:p

[jamie2112]

Uh...I guess... I never noticed a difference between now and when I was using 12AWG and they were less than 10ft from the source. Please elaborate though:confused:

Yellow speaker wire just kills your hi freq and if there is green stripes on the wire it will dull the 1 hz to 4hz bandwidth....I don't know why but yellow cable is really harsh on the higher frequencies...:rolleyes::D

[PSWii60]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....Funny, Funny, yea just laugh and laugh..you guys are just regular clowns:D:D:D:D:D:D:D. Thanks for bustin my B@lls;)

[jamie2112]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....Funny, Funny, yea just laugh and laugh..you guys are just regular clowns:D:D:D:D:D:D:D. Thanks for bustin my B@lls;)

Hey there no problem buddy.....:D

[Alex2507]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....Funny, Funny, yea just laugh and laugh..you guys are just regular clowns:D:D:D:D:D:D:D. Thanks for bustin my B@lls;)

I thought I was gonna die laughing when I read that. I tried giving you some rep points for being a good sport but I'm tapped. Soon though.

To me it seemed like the stage was set with MatthewB talking about moon rocks and such. That Jamie just doesn't know how to behave. :D

[jliedeka]

Yellow speaker wire just kills your hi freq and if there is green stripes on the wire it will dull the 1 hz to 4hz bandwidth....I don't know why but yellow cable is really harsh on the higher frequencies...:rolleyes::D

The color needs to be harmonically in tune with the desired frequencies. Red is the best color for bass (or infrared if you can find it). Indigo is perfect for high frequencies. You don't need violet or ultaviolet because nobody can hear that high anyway. :D

[Midcow2]

I know i'm going to catch hell for saying this but when I built my theater I used 8AWG for all speakers:eek: This was only because I already had about 300ft of it and didn't see the need to purchase anything. Each conductor is about as thick as a pencil and I have 30ft runs. It works great and it will carry any amout of power I want to feed it! I do agree its absurd, but it would have been more absurd to buy something because it is labeled "speaker wire" when I already had so much of this. I'll upload a pic in a minute.

LOL thanks for sharing. That is some BIG wire :D

[Midcow2]

Here is the 8AWG I ran to everything, Its overkill, but its great stuff.
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq168/momoshowcar/DSC_0398.jpg
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq168/momoshowcar/DSC_0393.jpg

Reminds of the pet grass snake I had

[highfigh]

I know someone who does commercial sound, PA, conventions and has worked as a recording engineer in studios. He has done TEF analysis of speaker cables and found that up to 50', 16 ga was fine up to a certain power limit, which IIRC was 100W. No extra distortion was seen, no response issues, no damping problems. His telling me about this was prompted by me trying to sell some heavy speaker cable to him. He also compared the waveforms at the input and output of the cable, while terminated.

[highfigh]

Reminds of the pet grass snake I had

Nice Packer colors.

[Alex2507]

Understand that I'm a condo dweller and I just happen to have this on hand. Not only that but I really thought I had something when I bought it.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k479/Alex2507_2008/wire/PICT0014.jpg

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k479/Alex2507_2008/wire/PICT0013.jpg

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k479/Alex2507_2008/wire/PICT0011.jpg

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k479/Alex2507_2008/wire/PICT0005.jpg

The blue and silver clown wire is what I needed to deal with skin effect. :o
My helmet is on. You can start hurling the rocks. :p

Edit: Don't mind the pube. Yuck! :D

[jamie2112]

Blue and silver wire is super tough on the mids. 400hz thru 1k is affected in a nonpourus way. I would only use white or black as those are the only colors that sound good. IMO of course.....

[mtrycrafts]

DUDE. :eek:

I wonder if they'll fit under the hood of my platinum-plated Ferrari F430?

But they are so nice, just like that ripe pear:D

[mtrycrafts]

I recently saw an ad for Monster speaker cable and couldn't believe the jargon they are willing to use to sell wire:

"Special Time Correct windings control distortion producing magnetic fields for a smoother, more natural re-creation of the music. Patented Magnetic Flux Tube construction provides improved bass response and dynamic range, important for home theatre and top quality music systems."

I have a physics degree and don't know what they are talking about.

That's what they are counting on, the general public being blown away by such words:D

I wonder if they have hard data to support their claims: controls distortion LOL; improved bass response( that can be measured); as can dynamic range.

[mtrycrafts]

I know i'm going to catch hell for saying this but when I built my theater I used 8AWG for all speakers:eek: This was only because I already had about 300ft of it and didn't see the need to purchase anything. Each conductor is about as thick as a pencil and I have 30ft runs. It works great and it will carry any amout of power I want to feed it! I do agree its absurd, but it would have been more absurd to buy something because it is labeled "speaker wire" when I already had so much of this. I'll upload a pic in a minute.



Why would anyone give you grief about that 8ga? I didn't have to work with it, you did:D And, best of all, it was left over, likely free as it would have been just sitting around doing nothing.:D

[mtrycrafts]

How much of a noticeable difference in sound quality between the "good" speaker cables (like the ones that have plugs) ...
Thanks!

What kind of plugs are you referring to? Pictures?

[Shock]

I'm fairly certain he's talking about banana plugs.

I'm not a fan of any kind of termination plug. I have always prefered raw wire for the simple fact I don't have to buy anything other than the wire, and there's one less failure point to deal with.

There's zero difference in sound quality when using raw or any type of high quality termination to answer your question. All cable end termination does is allow for easier assembly.

[PSWii60]

Why would anyone give you grief about that 8ga? I didn't have to work with it, you did:D And, best of all, it was left over, likely free as it would have been just sitting around doing nothing.:D

Because its overkill. And yes it was left over from an MRI install. And Yes it was a pain to work with (especially when its cold), luckily my room has crawl space surrounding it so it was just a matter of laying it all out. It's really not that big. It's the shielding that makes it so large and it's O2 free
(not that it matters much:rolleyes:) With wire that big I barely have any resistance, and the runs from my AV closet to my mains is pretty long. It works well but I'm still using integrated amplification from my receiver (140x7) (which probably equates to about 80-90). I'm still undecided on which amp will fit my need, but one thing for certain is with 8AWG I can just about feed any amount of power I want.

[highfigh]

Yellow speaker wire just kills your hi freq and if there is green stripes on the wire it will dull the 1 hz to 4hz bandwidth....I don't know why but yellow cable is really harsh on the higher frequencies...:rolleyes::D

I didn't dump on your team's colors, so please don't dump on my team's colors. Now, if the jacket was purple, gold and white (Viqueens) or navy blue and orange (Bears), fire away.:D

[highfigh]

I recently saw an ad for Monster speaker cable and couldn't believe the jargon they are willing to use to sell wire:

"Special Time Correct windings control distortion producing magnetic fields for a smoother, more natural re-creation of the music. Patented Magnetic Flux Tube construction provides improved bass response and dynamic range, important for home theatre and top quality music systems."

I have a physics degree and don't know what they are talking about.

The first time a Munster Cable rep came in to give us sales and technical training (they served Kool-Aid), he talked about the separate solid and stranded wire, saying that because highs and lows travel at different speeds, I asked him to calculate how much sooner the signal would be delayed if the separate conductor wasn't there and also if he knew the smallest increment of delay that can be discerned in controlled listening tests. He couldn't, and wouldn't try. He was absolutely certain that, although the correction was far below the audible minimum time increment, it would make a big difference in sound quality.

I passed on the Kool-Aid.

[Rickster71]

Because its overkill. And yes it was left over from an MRI install. And Yes it was a pain to work with (especially when its cold), luckily my room has crawl space surrounding it so it was just a matter of laying it all out. It's really not that big. It's the shielding that makes it so large and it's O2 free
(not that it matters much:rolleyes:) With wire that big I barely have any resistance, and the runs from my AV closet to my mains is pretty long. It works well but I'm still using integrated amplification from my receiver (140x7) (which probably equates to about 80-90). I'm still undecided on which amp will fit my need, but one thing for certain is with 8AWG I can just about feed any amount of power I want.

I always have plenty of wire left over; terminating it was always an issue.
What type of wire did you use?
How were you able to connect it?

[PSWii60]

Just 8AWG stranded copper

[Alex2507]

Just 8AWG stranded copper

Is there any writing on the jacket or on the spool?

[jamie2112]

Oh my god if there is writing on the yellow cable that takes evrything from 315hz to 4k out...I really hope there is no writing on any of his yellow cables..

[PSWii60]

ill have to check. I know the strands are like angel hair or like rope fiber. I guess to help maintain flexability

[Rickster71]

Just 8AWG stranded copper

Opps, I didn't read this whole thread, and I missed all the pictures and fun.
Just trying to explain my stupid question.:)

[Alex2507]

Just trying to explain my stupid question.:)
Don't feel bad. Just look at the quality of the answers. This is one of the few threads around here that you actually run the risk of walking away dumber than when you got there. Allow me to illustrate :D:

I know the strands are like angel hair or like rope fiber. I guess to help maintain flexibility.

That also helps with providing the electrons a certain looseness in the inductive field. As the electrons speed around corners they don't get choked out allowing for a full field signal within the time domain. :rolleyes:

PSWii60,

I really am curious to know what the lettering is on something like that. All kidding aside, no really, :) I think there is something to how close or far apart the + and - wires are. It's maybe covered in AV University or in the BJC articles. I don't think it's too important but there is something to it (I think).

Hey EddieG,

Don't think we forgot about you. Here's the real scoop from the main page which is a great resource. I guess the forums are a good for a quick and dirty answer but the fellas that write these articles up can back their words up with little letters behind their names (I think).

http://www.audioholics.com/education/cables/speaker-cable-gauge

[PSWii60]

I really am curious to know what the lettering is on something like that. All kidding aside, no really, :) I think there is something to how close or far apart the + and - wires are. It's maybe covered in AV University or in the BJC articles. I don't think it's too important but there is something to it (I think).


I'm not sure what the effects would be regarding how far apart the + and - are? Could you please point me to a reference explaining if there is any? The cables are single conductor stranded #8 . Just as any other speaker cable, just separate the two conductors (+ & -) and beef each one to #8 and thats what I got.

[Alex2507]

I think it's something I read in the cable face off articles a couple of years ago. I have no idea where to find it now. If you find it while you're snooping around, let me know. ;)

I don't think it's of much importance. If it was we would all know about it. :)

[PSWii60]

The Only markings on the cable are E12683-V AWM STYLE 1017 8AWG.
I know we use it as grounding cable in MRI application (hence the color) but its just stranded copper. Here (http://iq.ul.com/stylepages/1017-AWM-Fixed.rtf) is the UL listing for it. If anyone sees a negative to using this please share your thoughts. As I said before I only used it because I had an abundance of it on hand, and I was making long runs, but if there are negatives to it I will swap it with "speaker wire"

http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq168/momoshowcar/Home%20Theater/DSC_0407.jpg
http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq168/momoshowcar/Home%20Theater/DSC_0410.jpg

[PSWii60]

Here (http://www.itcelectronics.com/product_info.php?cPath=1179_1398&products_id=2045) is an online dealer that actually sells #8 speaker wire. So maybe I'm not crazy to think there would ever be an application to warrant something this big.

[Alex2507]

Just as I suspected, automotive application.

[PSWii60]

MRI is medical

[Alex2507]

MRI is medical

No Dude, your link is for an automotive application. So far the brightest mind to weigh in on this thread has already blessed your path. I would think that you are all done and your space proves that you've achieved quite a goal.

This link compares a few different speaker wires and that bit of info might be in there but I'll be honest: I'm not going to try to read it again. Those days are over for me. :)

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/cables/speaker-cable-face-off-1

[PSWii60]

The automotive industry must have the same cable requirements as the medical industry then. I only see in the link I attached that it specifies a standard for appliance wiring material UL 758. I know X-Ray and MRI are wired for 480 so that may be why its rated so high, it also uses heavy shielding to help prevent RF. Maybe I'll lay out some regular #12 tomorrow to one of my mains. Then see if my wife can tell a difference.

[Alex2507]

Here's what I saw:

"8 AWG 665 Strands 100' Clear automotive cable PVC Jacket"

I don't think it's a requirement in the auto industry. It's just what sells. I would be stunned to find that you can hear a difference.

[jliedeka]

And they can double as jumper cables. What's not to like? :D

Jim

[PSWii60]

Sorry Alex, I thought you were referring to the UL spec sheet. The link for the automotive cable was just something i found. I was just surprised that #8 speaker wire even existed.

[highfigh]

Why would anyone give you grief about that 8ga? I didn't have to work with it, you did:D And, best of all, it was left over, likely free as it would have been just sitting around doing nothing.:D

That's the worst kind of wire. Sitting around all day, thinking of all kinds of devious ways to get out of delivering good sound. Shiftless, I tells ya.

[mtrycrafts]

...
How were you able to connect it?

With a monster of a connector:D

[mtrycrafts]

I'm fairly certain he's talking about banana plugs.
.

This is what got me though:
"good" speaker cables (like the ones that have plugs) vs. the lesser expensive Radio Shack cables that have the copper and silver cables you have to strip the ends of to connect.


to me it implies that the good speaker cables came with plugs on them but I am not aware of one unless it may be a special order.

[Tin Ears]

I recently saw an ad for Monster speaker cable and couldn't believe the jargon they are willing to use to sell wire:

"Special Time Correct windings control distortion producing magnetic fields for a smoother, more natural re-creation of the music. Patented Magnetic Flux Tube construction provides improved bass response and dynamic range, important for home theatre and top quality music systems."

I have a physics degree and don't know what they are talking about.

Wasn't the Magnetic Flux Tube used to travel "Back to the Future"?

Time to check the Delorean.

[Rickster71]

That also helps with providing the electrons a certain looseness in the inductive field.


That's true; I like my electrons, and my women, both a little on the loose side.


I really am curious to know what the lettering is on something like that. All kidding aside, no really, :) I think there is something to how close or far apart the + and - wires are. It's maybe covered in AV University or in the BJC articles. I don't think it's too important but there is something to it (I think).

The wire doesn't look like THHN. The insulation looks like another type, who's designation escapes me. I must be getting old.;)looks like stuff I've in instrument and control circuits, or appliance, equipment wire. GRD with yellow tracer.

You are on to something Alex. It's ok for the wires to be separate though they should be in the same conduit.
If not in conduit, they should be kept close together. (by separate, I mean not traditional side by side zip cord)
I'm not sure how much of this applies to speaker wire and the frequencies they run at.
I think with speaker wire it's more for image rejection.

I know in high voltage wiring, NEC 300.20 wants to avoid induction heating, all wires in the same circuit have to run close together in the same pipe, or trench, and must exit the same hole of a metal enclosure.

[R-Carpenter]

Wasn't the Magnetic Flux Tube used to travel "Back to the Future"?

Time to check the Delorean.



Delorian is a cool car!