Does anyone really care about the Center Channel?

[drinke]

I've been cruising this website (and others like it) for roughly 2 years now, looking for advice on everything from subs to amps, receivers and towers and one thing has been nagging on me lately. Why is it that no one ever asks for advice on the center channel? When it comes to home theater, this seems to be a rather critical component. Or is it?

One of the views I've encountered is that the center is merely redundant - that is - the fronts can do the job, so why spend the cash on the center when that cash could be used to buy higher-end more "critical" components.

But even among those who view the center as a worthy purchase, you seldom hear or read of anyone chiming in to say that they can't wait to updgrade their center, or how excited they are that their new center just arrived (this kind of excitement is generally reserved for subs, amps and towers). Perhaps as long as the center matches the other speakers (generally by manufacturer) it might not matter.

If this topic has been discussed recently, and I missed it, I apologize for wasting time. However, with the collective audio knowledge of this site's following, I wonder what others' think about this issue.

Assuming a limited HT budget (which most of us have), what would you advise?

Is a center channel a worthy investment? If so, what % of your budget might you allocate to it? Would you do the bare minimum (ie just match them) or would you get the top of the line center made by your chosen manufacturer?

[EJ1]

I care about the center channel but I agree that the center doesn't get brought up often. With my old setup, the center was $2,800 and the front pair was $650, haha. I guess most people worry about the fronts because they also do their 2 channel listening in the home theatre.

[jostenmeat]

Its been discussed recently, and repeatedly, even just by myself, as one single, modest contributor.

Indeed, the goal is to match the fronts. Its NOT about buying the best center speaker you can afford. For you are going backwards if the stage is unmatched.

What is the best match? An identical speaker to your mains.

The other benefits of having an identical speaker is that its no longer horizontal, or worse yet a horiz mtm. Vertically arrayed drivers are best. Period.

Even better would be to make sure all three speakers are on the same plane. Best panning and shifting of energy within the stage.

By not having the center, whether horiz or vertical, near the floor (within just a couple of feet), you are asking for midbass boosts that WILL mask dialogue.

You don't have to blow the entire load on the center. Not the right way to go about it. Spend it on the three fronts as a combined whole.

Voila.

[EJ1]

So essentially, the best front stage would have 3 identical speakers? My speakers are timbre matched now and it sounds much better than an awesome center speaker with subpar fronts.

[jostenmeat]

So essentially, the best front stage would have 3 identical speakers? My speakers are timbre matched now and it sounds much better than an awesome center speaker with subpar fronts.

Yep.

All upright, all on the same plane is best, at ear level.

Even better, for audio-first POV, yet with HT, is to have them all behind an AT screen for utterly "locked" dialogue.

If I could have a nickel for every time I've recommended three upright speakers, identically. Sooooooooo many people mount their flat panel on the wall a few ft high. Yet, they STILL get a large AV/TV stand/rack, forcing a horiz center.

What they SHOULD do, IMO, is buy a rack (like mine, $200 modular), and put it ANYWHERE else but the front. No lights for better immersion, less mass between speakers that might cause undue reflections and get in the way of imaging. Its actually cheaper this way too.

My 35ft HDMI cable is about $40. My URC RF-20 remote, including blaster, is $80 shipped. You'd have a setup that only the finest HTs typically have, and it would probably cost you less, not more.

[/rant]

[ParadigmDawg]

I too, care about my Center Channel but there is not a lot to talk about. Get the one that goes with your mains or get 3 identical speakers for the front sound stage.

[Joe Schmoe]

Every time I have tried a center, I have ended up preferring phantom.
(In fact, I used to have a 5,1 system. Now I am back down to 2.0 and actually prefer it. This was all with the same mains, and everything else matching them!:confused:)

[ParadigmDawg]

I have tried using "phantom" and really dislike it. I feel as though, I lose the panning of sounds across the front stage and it seems like the dialog just screams at me from the main speakers.Every time I have tried a center, I have ended up preferring phantom.
(In fact, I used to have a 5,1 system. Now I am back down to 2.0 and actually prefer it. This was all with the same mains, and everything else matching them!:confused:)

[Alex2507]

Indeed, the goal is to match the fronts. Its NOT about buying the best center speaker you can afford. For you are going backwards if the stage is unmatched.

there is not a lot to talk about. Get the one that goes with your mains or get 3 identical speakers for the front sound stage.

The preceding statements being the center channel wisdom in a nut shell, I can see how it would be hard to nail down something as small and simple as this in the expanse of the internet. IOW, I agree. :)

[rumonkey2]

Yep.

All upright, all on the same plane is best, at ear level.

Even better, for audio-first POV, yet with HT, is to have them all behind an AT screen for utterly "locked" dialogue.

If I could have a nickel for every time I've recommended three upright speakers, identically. Sooooooooo many people mount their flat panel on the wall a few ft high. Yet, they STILL get a large AV/TV stand/rack, forcing a horiz center.

What they SHOULD do, IMO, is buy a rack (like mine, $200 modular), and put it ANYWHERE else but the front. No lights for better immersion, less mass between speakers that might cause undue reflections and get in the way of imaging. Its actually cheaper this way too.

My 35ft HDMI cable is about $40. My URC RF-20 remote, including blaster, is $80 shipped. You'd have a setup that only the finest HTs typically have, and it would probably cost you less, not more.

[/rant]

Or, sacrifice perfect "video height" and build your own cabinet...(I couldn't wall mount BTW)
Hey, it's a budget system in a small room. But I revel in the sound, starting with the basic premise of matching fronts, all on the same plane...And, yes, there is a noticeable difference vs. a horizontal "matching" center...:D

[jliedeka]

Three identical front speakers all at the same height and distance from the listening position is the ideal. Most of us, however, live in the real world where we have to make compromises.

In my case, I could just get away with a vertical monitor for a center under my wall mounted TV. The problem is I'd like to get a bigger TV down the road which would cause part of the screen to be blocked.

A good compromise is a center from the same series as your mains. Some manufacturers take pains to reduce lobing by making them 2.5 or 3 way. I think lobing isn't a problem for most people since they prefer to sit as close as possible to the middle of the screen.

My real world recommendation is a center from the same speaker line centered on the screen and within a foot above or below. Additionally, I would angle the center up or down towards the listening position. It won't be perfect for multichannel audio but will be pretty good for movies.

Jim

[allargon]

A vertical floorstanding center is a nightmare for those of us with rear projection setups. Honestly, it will be difficult to properly configure even an in/on-wall configuration at ear height with a DLP. Trading off-axis listening for off-axis viewing is something most home theater enthusiasts would care about.

FTR, some (e.g., yours truly) of us do care about the center channel and complain about cheaping out on it quite a bit.

[gixxerific]

The whole thing with having 3 matching mains is really an unrealistic venture now isn't it for most people? Now I do totally understand the logic behind this. I also understand the problems with MTM centers. But let's face it, how many people can afford 3 mains, when looking at high end? Some can I'm sure you will say but MOST can't.

Than again how many high end manufactures sell singles. Sure some do, but not all of them. There are countless high end choices out there but what are you gonna do if you can't buy a single. You have to get a center that matches up with your system.

Don't get me wrong, if it were up to me I would have 3 mains kicking *** and taking names but don't see it happening in this household.

Maybe if I get 6 mains than I could put one on the ceiling!?!?!?:eek:

Dono

[the grunt]

Like jostenmeat and others I also recommend an identical vertical center whenever I see the question come up. Horizontal centers sound so bad IMO I recommend matching bookshelf speakers up front if one cant fit or doesn‘t want towers.


Every time I have tried a center, I have ended up preferring phantom.


I did too until I figured out I could do this.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w151/grunt1960/fronta.jpg


A vertical floorstanding center is a nightmare for those of us with rear projection setups. Honestly, it will be difficult to properly configure even an in/on-wall configuration at ear height with a DLP.


Your right about getting it at ear height but since that picture was taken I put the mains on cinderblocks which put their tweeters within a few inches of the center’s tweeters. For movies this setup creates a sort of wall of sound effect (very movie-theater-like) while the pans across the front all stay in the same vertical plane. For 5.1 music the only difference I notice is that on some recordings it sounds like your are near the front row of a concert and looking up a little at the stage. Still seems very natural though.

[no1maestro]

I was fortunate to come across a used Niles center channel speaker with several switchable adjustments so as to be able to match it with different fronts. I think that a center of some kind is crucial to hearing the dialogue properly. It took little time to match it up to my Infinitys and it works wonderfully!!

[j_garcia]

For multichannel tracks, especially music, a center is a must and it should blend well with your mains (identical if possible as shown to the extreme above); period end of statement. For 2ch music on the other hand, you obviously don't need it.

[fredk]

I think lots of people care about the center, but it goes back to how most choose the system. The 'voice' of the system is the mains and most people choose based on the voice.

For the rp crowd, the best choice is dual vertical centers placed above and below the display. Thats exactly what I did. In my case, the bookshelves I chose use ecxactly the same drivers as the traditional center and are properly voiced to blend in perfectly.

I know of at least one person on this board that chose a system because it had a better designed center.

[DD66000]

I don't where you have been reading, but over the last two years I've posted to many threads about center speakers.

Now there have been many posts to this thread I need to respond to.
First its been said, many times, identical and in line is best, totally true, be unrealistic for most of us.

If one has a rptv you can still use a vertical center if its in the 2 ft tall range, to sit in front of a 65" screen. A smaller screen, and I assume a bit lower, maybe a shorter speaker.
If you are going to try that setup, tilt the center back, so the tweeter and midrange are firing to ear level. The sound may seem to be a bit low at times, and not at others. Kinda depends on the pitch of the voice.

One thing you can try is to have identical vertical centers, one top, one below. I tried it and it will lock the voice to the center of the screen. I just didn't like the look of a 2 ft tall center above the screen. Even laying down was too tall (15")

I do use an identical center, but those speaker's imaging is so good a phantom works equally as well. If you use a phantom and it sucks it the mains not providing a good soundstage. try repositioning them. if that doesn't work, new speakers or a center speaker is in order.

If you must use a horizontal center, use one that have the tweeter and midrange stacked vertically, or coax located.

Its been said may times before that one reason for a center is to lock the vocies to the screen for those sitting off center. true

If the dialog sucks and you have a center, I bet its a horizontal center w/o the tweeter, midrange stacked.

here is how it can work well with a RPTV
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii4/hifiguy268/dcp_0004.jpg


A bad center............................................ ..............coax LCR
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii4/hifiguy268/31C8C9RJZHL_SL160_AA160_.jpg http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii4/hifiguy268/83.gif

Good centers

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii4/hifiguy268/LC2BE.jpg

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii4/hifiguy268/LSCENTER_230.jpghttp://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii4/hifiguy268/PC600CH-Z.jpg

A speaker for all channels
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii4/hifiguy268/PT800.jpg

[Midcow2]

I read the other posts and agree with a lot of what is said.

you want to maintain timbre across the front which is seamless sound. Obviously 3 identical speakers would do that or a center that matches the fronts. However with a third tower the sound can be off from the picture and a little bit unnerving if the HT speaker's sound does not appear to be coming from the speaker's mouth; the center needs to be in somewaht close proximity to the video.

Okay why a center at all? In movies most of the dialog comes from the center. If you want to listen to TV or DVDs then a great center is important.

I had a okay center before and music was awesome, but vsometimes it was hard to distinguish what they were saying in videos. Then I got an awesome center, maybe one of the best, movies an TV shows are par excellence to none.

If you only listen to music you can boot the center otherwise it is a critical component.

Take care!

MidCow2

P.S. - Nothing like good video with 33 degree Coors Light and a Golden Retriever ( and wife) sleeping beside you on the floor and the couch ;) ( Yes, the dog is on the floor!!!)

[no. 5]

I've been cruising this website (and others like it) for roughly 2 years now, looking for advice on everything from subs to amps, receivers and towers and one thing has been nagging on me lately. Why is it that no one ever asks for advice on the center channel?

I suppose many people just don't think the center channel is "cool".

Enormous subwoofers are awesome, and seven foot tall main channels are cool, but the center channel? I mean, it's only where all the dialog comes from. :rolleyes:

[DD66000]

I suppose many people just don't think the center channel is "cool".

Enormous subwoofers are awesome, and seven foot tall main channels are cool, but the center channel? I mean, it's only where all the dialog comes from. :rolleyes:

For most of the time we have had MC, the center was the weak link, and many still are. And one reason is the WAF, which I don't and never did have, when it came to audio. Which lead to having horizontal centers that were really wimpy and totally useless.
So make sure it a good design before you buy.
But identical LCRs are still best.

[Rogozhin]

I've been working without a center as I replace primary amps and I can say that even with the phantom it does not sound 'correct'. I have a center that shares the same drivers as my mains, and it sounds wonderful. I can't purchase a single Opus1 tower to match my mains, but I'm looking. :)

You've asked a very valid question OP!

[gixxerific]

What about having 2 towers left and right. Then maybe a bookshelve version of your mains for a center. I supose that would work well, probably better than a MTM aranged center.

What do you guy's think?

Dono

[the grunt]

What about having 2 towers left and right. Then maybe a bookshelve version of your mains for a center. I supose that would work well, probably better than a MTM aranged center.

What do you guy's think?

Dono

That is exactly what fredk from post #17 above did with his setup and says that he likes it a lot. I also tried it just as an experiment since I already knew I could fit a third tower and also found that a bookshelf timber matched to the tower mains sound much better than a horizontal center.

One thing to consider if you plan to try a bookshelf center is just to go with 3 good bookshelf speakers across the front and let a subwoofer pick up the low end. I think that for most people this is likely a more cost effective setup. And can even sound better than towers because you can buy better bookshelf speakers for the same or less money than towers.

[DD66000]

Identical bookshelf speakers all around is a good way to go and if they're wall mountable, even better. That way you've got total flexability as far as setup of the entire system.

The bigger the bookshelf speaker the better. And if you can mount the main L/R to a pair subs you still end up with full range mains for stereo music.

[gixxerific]

That is exactly what fredk from post #17 above did with his setup and says that he likes it a lot. I also tried it just as an experiment since I already knew I could fit a third tower and also found that a bookshelf timber matched to the tower mains sound much better than a horizontal center.

One thing to consider if you plan to try a bookshelf center is just to go with 3 good bookshelf speakers across the front and let a subwoofer pick up the low end. I think that for most people this is likely a more cost effective setup. And can even sound better than towers because you can buy better bookshelf speakers for the same or less money than towers.

I must have missed post 17 but there you go. That is probably what I will do someday. Though I will be getting some towers just because that is what I want. Maybe it is my age and what we grew up with. Plus I will be getting things in steps, can't afford it all at once. Maybe when it comes time to upgrade the system I don't even have yet I will look at bookshelves.:D

[the grunt]

I must have missed post 17 but there you go. That is probably what I will do someday. Though I will be getting some towers just because that is what I want. Maybe it is my age and what we grew up with. Plus I will be getting things in steps, can't afford it all at once. Maybe when it comes time to upgrade the system I don't even have yet I will look at bookshelves.:D

I’m like you with the towers, I grew up with big full range speakers and anything else just doesn’t seem right. May not be rational but at least in my mind I can rationalize it. Building your system in steps is a great idea rather than making compromises you might regret later. I’m doing the same thing. I wish I had asked more about center channels before I started buying that way I wouldn’t have wasted time or money trying to get a horizontal center to sound as good as I wanted.

Good luck with your purchases.
Dean

[gixxerific]

I’m like you with the towers, I grew up with big full range speakers and anything else just doesn’t seem right. May not be rational but at least in my mind I can rationalize it. Building your system in steps is a great idea rather than making compromises you might regret later. I’m doing the same thing. I wish I had asked more about center channels before I started buying that way I wouldn’t have wasted time or money trying to get a horizontal center to sound as good as I wanted.

Good luck with your purchases.
Dean

Thanks and yes the center and surrounds are a part of my desicion. Though If I find some totally awesome speakers that may not have matching centers and whatnot so beit, I will figure it out from there.

[Sheep]

Another reason for a center is to anchor the dialogue on the screen with the characters (unless they go off the screen, then the dialogue will move to a different speaker). Also, it takes a load off the main speakers which see enough information in movies.

SheepStar

[The Dali]

Like jostenmeat and others I also recommend an identical vertical center whenever I see the question come up. Horizontal centers sound so bad IMO I recommend matching bookshelf speakers up front if one cant fit or doesn‘t want towers.



I did too until I figured out I could do this.

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w151/grunt1960/fronta.jpg



Your right about getting it at ear height but since that picture was taken I put the mains on cinderblocks which put their tweeters within a few inches of the center’s tweeters. For movies this setup creates a sort of wall of sound effect (very movie-theater-like) while the pans across the front all stay in the same vertical plane. For 5.1 music the only difference I notice is that on some recordings it sounds like your are near the front row of a concert and looking up a little at the stage. Still seems very natural though.



Is this really what you have set up? With all due respect, that is wacked. Is this your main room, or in the basement?

I think this is a great example of what makes sense versus what is truly the best setup. I'll admit that this probably sounds the best, but how many people would realistically want a tower speaker on top of their TV (physically or aestetically)?

[DD66000]

I'm not conviced that having the center above the screen is best, unless you also have one below the screen, which I've already tried. But I didn't keep both, going back to just the one below. A 24" tall speaker above just looked too out of place.

Although I have seen pics of in-wall LCRs that have the center above, I have to admit, that an inwall looks better above the screen than a freestanding vertical tower.

[the grunt]

Is this really what you have set up? With all due respect, that is wacked. Is this your main room, or in the basement?

I think this is a great example of what makes sense versus what is truly the best setup. I'll admit that this probably sounds the best, but how many people would realistically want a tower speaker on top of their TV (physically or aestetically)?


Yup that’s my setup. And I agree that it looks absurd. Yes it is my main room as I live in a one bedroom apartment. Here’s some more of what it looks like

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=5&Number=219121&Searchpage=2&Main=15077&Words=grunt&topic=0&Search=true#Post219121

I purchased way more speaker than I needed for an apartment setup to future proof for when I buy a house. I didn’t like the horizontal center I bought and knew that when I got a house I would get a projector and acoustically transparent screen and would want a matching tower as a center. I had already built freestanding scaffolding around the entire room and TV so I could hang curtains (my lease doesn’t allow anything attached to the walls) so there was already a platform above the TV that could hold a heavy speaker. Originally I planed to use a bookshelf speaker to replace the horizontal center but for the hell of it I measured and realized a tower just fit above the TV. I knew I would eventually buy one anyway so I figured I’d give it a try and it works great.

I realize that almost no one is going to be able to duplicate this setup for the reasons you mention however, for the one other person out there who might be facing similar choices I posted the picture just to show it’s possible and that we don’t always have to be slaves to conventional wisdom. Doesn’t hurt that I have no WAF worries and have always been a bit eccentric, ok wacked ;).

Also from what I’ve been reading at the Axiom forums they are coming out with an in-wall/on-wall or both versions of some of there tower speakers which might make a tower above the RPTV a more viable option for some.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think we all talk about the center speaker just as much as we talk about any other speaker.

I even tried to use a BP7001SC tower as a Center and I loved it.

My plan is to get another BP7000SC for my Center to match the front left & right BP7000SC.

So I also agree with getting 3 identical vertical front speakers.:D

[The Dali]

Yup that’s my setup. And I agree that it looks absurd. Yes it is my main room as I live in a one bedroom apartment. Here’s some more of what it looks like

http://www.axiomaudio.com/boards/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=5&Number=219121&Searchpage=2&Main=15077&Words=grunt&topic=0&Search=true#Post219121

I purchased way more speaker than I needed for an apartment setup to future proof for when I buy a house. I didn’t like the horizontal center I bought and knew that when I got a house I would get a projector and acoustically transparent screen and would want a matching tower as a center. I had already built freestanding scaffolding around the entire room and TV so I could hang curtains (my lease doesn’t allow anything attached to the walls) so there was already a platform above the TV that could hold a heavy speaker. Originally I planed to use a bookshelf speaker to replace the horizontal center but for the hell of it I measured and realized a tower just fit above the TV. I knew I would eventually buy one anyway so I figured I’d give it a try and it works great.

I realize that almost no one is going to be able to duplicate this setup for the reasons you mention however, for the one other person out there who might be facing similar choices I posted the picture just to show it’s possible and that we don’t always have to be slaves to conventional wisdom. Doesn’t hurt that I have no WAF worries and have always been a bit eccentric, ok wacked ;).

Also from what I’ve been reading at the Axiom forums they are coming out with an in-wall/on-wall or both versions of some of there tower speakers which might make a tower above the RPTV a more viable option for some.



I hear ya! Different strokes. ;)

[jostenmeat]

Is this really what you have set up? With all due respect, that is wacked. Is this your main room, or in the basement?

I think this is a great example of what makes sense versus what is truly the best setup. I'll admit that this probably sounds the best, but how many people would realistically want a tower speaker on top of their TV (physically or aestetically)?

As they say, don't knock it till you try it... and especially if the lights are turned off, and you can't see it.

I remember it was supervij I believe, who recounted a story. He put a vertical bookshelf on top of display I believe, and thought it looked really stupid. He did mention it performed in a superior manner. He had guests over, expecting the worst, and nobody said a single thing, but they all did they think it sounded great. I have no idea if he left it that way.

I believe that most people are conditioned to horiz MTMs because that's simply what all the photos, big box stores, and furniture magazines always have. We are sheep.

[fredk]

If you don't like the totally wacked look and already have your mancard platinum, how about the 'just a little wacked' look?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/2580488123_cbc5f5ff4a.jpg

[jamie2112]

I myself don't really care about the center as long as it matches the front L,R.

[Alex2507]

I have no WAF worries .

I could tell. :D

[TLS Guy]

It seems we have been over this ground a lot lately. Obviously the center channel speaker needs to get a lot more attention from the industry than it has.

On most rigs I have listened to the center channel speaker does not produce speech with a natural human quality. Worse speech intelligibility is far more often than not poor, especially when there is a lot of action.

At the SOTU event, as I stated in my review (http://www.drmarksays.com/?p=71) The best speech intelligibility was in the Pioneer room, where the speakers had coaxial mid/tweeter units. The second best was in the Sherwood room from five identical bookshelf speakers. Other offerings in this regard were below par.

Chris Seymour gave an excellent review of the problem.

I don't think aesthetics can not be ignored in this problem. The easy solution of using the same drivers as in the mains in horizontal MTM, has exactly the wrong polar response.

The other problem I believe, is that to have a crossover frequency right in the speech discrimination band is a problem. I think the phase and time problems induced contribute to speech intelligibility problems.

I'm not convinced the center has to have the same drivers as the mains.

I designed my center channel speaker to solve a good deal of these problems.

I chose to use a coaxial driver for the center. The mid bass cone acts as a waveguide, to give coverage of just the listening area, with minimal interference pattern affecting the mains. There is time alignment, but some violence to phase in the speech discrimination band from the crossover. However speech clarity and naturalness has been excellent, and the sound stage moves in a seem less fashion, with no change in the character of sounds moving across the sound stage. This speaker is also an excellent music reproducer.

I believe the best options for the center channel are coaxial speakers, good full range drivers, or speakers with no crossover in the speech discrimination band, and also having a suitable polar response.

Coaxial and full range drivers have the best chance of solving the aesthetic problems. However even a vertical speaker angled to the listening position, does not have to look out pf place.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/photos/127085269_ZbnTX-M.jpg

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/photos/127077317_Pufg7-M.jpg

Now in my first floor system, I have a two channel set up. The mid domes are the famous Dynaudio D76.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/photos/127080883_m9TKu-M.jpg

These domes like the ATC domes have an astonishing bandwidth. They are handling the range 400 Hz to 4 KHz, and are therefore handling the whole of the speech discrimination band. Speech clarity is excellent, and dialog is maintained to the center position over a wide listening area.

I think speech discrimination is easily upset by problems caused by crossover and displacement of drivers on the baffle, that are operating in the speech discrimination band, which is from 1 KHz to 2.5 KHz

[jostenmeat]

Good stuff, TLS. I was at one point decently interested in KEF's offerings precisely because they use coaxial drivers. Their implementation offers even shorter height (even when a horizontal speaker is necessitated) than other better-designed horiz centers, such as the WTMW type.

However, I could not justify spending on a new set of front 3. Not yet anyways. :cool:

Maybe talk to me tomorrow... :p

[CraigV]

Resurrecting this thread to throw in my two cents worth – Reading through some of the posts, I saw a common theme – what makes for a good center channel speaker, and how should it be oriented. Unless I missed it, it appears no one mentioned the Kef line of speakers and their Uni-Q design. Placing the tweeter in the center of the woofer/mid time aligns the frequencies, which lends to a more solid soundstage & imaging. It also helps to reduce the “lobbing” effect common to a lot of speakers in a typical tweeter mounted above the woofer. This often lead to inconsistent frequency response off axis, and the sound appears to be “sucked out” as the listener shifts position, usually in the frequency at the crossover point.

As for the issue of a center channel, I have tried with & without (phantom) and find I prefer without. We have two ears, and stereo listening bodes well for us. Once we introduce a third speaker, the soundstage gets jumbled. No matter how closely matched the 3 front speakers might be (at one point I had three identical speakers across the front) the sound emanating from the center sounds different, if not in tonality, in it’s place in space. To me, the voices never seemed to come from the center of the screen, and there was always a shifting of the location of the sound as the action panned across the screen. The center channel always drew attention to itself. Now I am using a pair of Kef iQ7’s for the front two, and the phantom center approach. The sound is consistent across the front, imaging is deep, wide & tall, and the sound is really great.


*Edit - just read the last post before mine mentioning the Kef's

[TLS Guy]

Resurrecting this thread to throw in my two cents worth – Reading through some of the posts, I saw a common theme – what makes for a good center channel speaker, and how should it be oriented. Unless I missed it, it appears no one mentioned the Kef line of speakers and their Uni-Q design. Placing the tweeter in the center of the woofer/mid time aligns the frequencies, which lends to a more solid soundstage & imaging. It also helps to reduce the “lobbing” effect common to a lot of speakers in a typical tweeter mounted above the woofer. This often lead to inconsistent frequency response off axis, and the sound appears to be “sucked out” as the listener shifts position, usually in the frequency at the crossover point.

As for the issue of a center channel, I have tried with & without (phantom) and find I prefer without. We have two ears, and stereo listening bodes well for us. Once we introduce a third speaker, the soundstage gets jumbled. No matter how closely matched the 3 front speakers might be (at one point I had three identical speakers across the front) the sound emanating from the center sounds different, if not in tonality, in it’s place in space. To me, the voices never seemed to come from the center of the screen, and there was always a shifting of the location of the sound as the action panned across the screen. The center channel always drew attention to itself. Now I am using a pair of Kef iQ7’s for the front two, and the phantom center approach. The sound is consistent across the front, imaging is deep, wide & tall, and the sound is really great.


*Edit - just read the last post before mine mentioning the Kef's

You make very valid points. I think the center speaker is a huge problem, and I personally gave a lot of thought to it. However I think mine does help with dialog. It is of course essential for SACD. For years everyone said you have to hear the old Mercury Living Presence masters from the three channel tape. Robert Fine used three equally spaced omni microphones across the sound stage, each connected to a separate tape track. The results are spectacular, and we can hear his efforts on SACD.

I think the concept of center channel makes more sense with the then, and again now highly favored spaced omni phase difference technique, but not so much so with crossed microphone intensity techniques.

The other thing I like my center for is playing old mono recordings, with that speaker playing alone. I use a center with a coaxial driver by the way, as you can see if you click on my signature.

I think your point about a phantom center is well taken. Good speakers will lock a central image even if you are off center. I notice in a lot of members systems the speakers are either side of the screen, and far too close together. Frankly a center speaker makes no sense to me in those situations. The frequency aberrations induced by having three speakers so close together have to be significant.

[DD66000]

As for the issue of a center channel, I have tried with & without (phantom) and find I prefer without. We have two ears, and stereo listening bodes well for us. Once we introduce a third speaker, the soundstage gets jumbled. No matter how closely matched the 3 front speakers might be (at one point I had three identical speakers across the front) the sound emanating from the center sounds different, if not in tonality, in it’s place in space. To me, the voices never seemed to come from the center of the screen, and there was always a shifting of the location of the sound as the action panned across the screen. The center channel always drew attention to itself. Now I am using a pair of Kef iQ7’s for the front two, and the phantom center approach. The sound is consistent across the front, imaging is deep, wide & tall, and the sound is really great.


If the main L/R speakers produce a good soundstage, then a phantom center is good, but only if you're sitting dead center.

If you have a center channel and don't like it, then its either a bad design, wrong placement, wrong orientation, or all three.

Using a well designed vertical 3-way (tmw) will produce a very good center channel and thus dialogue. The best layout would be to have the LCRs at the same elevation, in line with the screen. In my case, as I have a rptv, the center is just below the screen, but tilted back to compensate for being lower than the mains. Only occassionally do I detect the voices location to be lower than the screen, and then it seems to be frequency dependent.

[lsiberian]

I think this is being very nitpicky. I mean honestly my center speaker works just fine with my mains. And I don't think another main would do as good of a job. As long as you get a good speaker brand with excellent response and well designed crossovers. The center should work just fine.

Kef speakers are great and I would buy them in a heartbeat if I needed a new front sound stage, but there good centers run about 500 dollars even on clearance.

Honestly while the Center is Important I think the main and subs should always take precedence.

[CraigV]

I think this is being very nitpicky. I mean honestly my center speaker works just fine with my mains. And I don't think another main would do as good of a job. As long as you get a good speaker brand with excellent response and well designed crossovers. The center should work just fine.

Kef speakers are great and I would buy them in a heartbeat if I needed a new front sound stage, but there good centers run about 500 dollars even on clearance.
Honestly while the Center is Important I think the main and subs should always take precedence.

I got a brand new pair of iQ7’s for $600, but the matching center is $450! Yikes!

I read a great paper written by some engineers from Dolby labs as to the use of a center channel speaker while mixing. All I know is what I can perceive. Watching Iron Man, the scene when he makes a return to the village near where he was held captive & starts kicking butt, the part where he takes out the last bad guys and the young boy runs to the side of his father. I.M. walks from left to right, and the sound pans left to right. I tried setting up the center speaker in every way possible, but the sound always did a “roller coaster” effect, dipping up or down to the center speaker, depending on its orientation. The characteristic of the sound also changed, from being more spatially correct in the side channels to being almost too focused from the center speaker, which lends to it drawing attention to itself. Of course, experimenting with placement & toe in is essential, and makes big differences.

[DD66000]

I think this is being very nitpicky. I mean honestly my center speaker works just fine with my mains. And I don't think another main would do as good of a job. As long as you get a good speaker brand with excellent response and well designed crossovers. The center should work just fine.

Kef speakers are great and I would buy them in a heartbeat if I needed a new front sound stage, but there good centers run about 500 dollars even on clearance.

Honestly while the Center is Important I think the main and subs should always take precedence.

Who or what are you referring to in your first sentence?
And yes, there are some very good center speakers, but there are also alot of junk centers.
$500 for any speaker isn't too much. Hell, it cost me at least that much to build each of my LCRs.

[no. 5]

If you have a center channel and don't like it, then its either a bad design, wrong placement, wrong orientation, or all three.

Poor source mastering can be added to that too.
We have two ears, and stereo listening bodes well for us. Once we introduce a third speaker, the soundstage gets jumbled.

I wouldn't put it so simply, there are a host of factors that come into play when it comes to preference with monophonic sound reproduction.

[DD66000]

Poor source mastering can be added to that too.


One other thing is the digital software. If I'm watching a movie, using DD, and I think the dialogue sucks, I change to HK's Logic 7 and like magic the dialogue is as it should be.

[lsiberian]

Who or what are you referring to in your first sentence?
And yes, there are some very good center speakers, but there are also alot of junk centers.
$500 for any speaker isn't too much. Hell, it cost me at least that much to build each of my LCRs.

I see people hanging towers upside down on their tv's:D I mean come on. That's insane. Lol

500 is too much for my budget right now.

A matching Center will work fine and even better in some cases. Putting speakers behind a fixed frame screen which I consider optimal in a Home Theater setup doesn't seem reasonable either.

Of course as always people should audition until they find the best.

[jostenmeat]

I see people hanging towers upside down on their tv's:D I mean come on. That's insane. Lol

And on the other hand, I've seen three horizontal MTMs as the front stage. Doesn't look insane perhaps, but how could you do any worse?

[CraigV]

If the main L/R speakers produce a good soundstage, then a phantom center is good, but only if you're sitting dead center.



True enough, but after polling my wife & kids (12 & 9) they like the better picture quality the Blu-Ray player & media afford, but sound isn’t as important. They do like the full range sound, but would be OK with the TV speakers as well, so claiming the center sweet spot isn’t an issue for me. With the Kef’s, the effect of being off center is not as dramatic as with more conventional speakers, so it’s all good.

[DD66000]

And on the other hand, I've seen three horizontal MTMs as the front stage. Doesn't look insane perhaps, but how could you do any worse?

It would depend if they were true horizontal mtm (that would be bad) or if the tweeters midranges were vertically stacked, with the mid-bass to the sides.

[lsiberian]

I got a brand new pair of iQ7’s for $600, but the matching center is $450! Yikes!

I read a great paper written by some engineers from Dolby labs as to the use of a center channel speaker while mixing. All I know is what I can perceive. Watching Iron Man, the scene when he makes a return to the village near where he was held captive & starts kicking butt, the part where he takes out the last bad guys and the young boy runs to the side of his father. I.M. walks from left to right, and the sound pans left to right. I tried setting up the center speaker in every way possible, but the sound always did a “roller coaster” effect, dipping up or down to the center speaker, depending on its orientation. The characteristic of the sound also changed, from being more spatially correct in the side channels to being almost too focused from the center speaker, which lends to it drawing attention to itself. Of course, experimenting with placement & toe in is essential, and makes big differences.

http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFIQ6CBLKA/KEF/iQ6C-3-Way-Center-Channel-Speaker-in-Black-NEW/1.html
But that's a very nice center:D If I had the funds It would be my center an the 7s would be my LR channel.


http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/KEFIQ2CBLKA/KEF/iQ2C-2-Way-Center-Channel-Speaker-in-Black-NEW/1.html
This is a cheaper option for a center. Lacks the bass drivers, but would probably be a decent match.


Ok I lie I would probably finish out the beta series with two 50's instead and maybe some of those funny looking dipoles lol.

I just love the highs they get. :D I've considered both routes and I have a tough choice ahead of me when I do make changes. I just can imagine letting my Beta's go.

[DD66000]

I see people hanging towers upside down on their tv's:D I mean come on. That's insane. Lol
That's a bit extreme and I had a 24" tall center above my screen, along with one below, for a few days, just to give it a listen.
500 is too much for my budget right now.
It would be too much for my budget right now. But I've got more speakers than I need anyway.

A matching Center will work fine and even better in some cases. Putting speakers behind a fixed frame screen which I consider optimal in a Home Theater setup doesn't seem reasonable either.
Ya, some dedicated centers are just fine, but others are total crap. And for behind the screen one needs a very good AT screen.

Of course as always people should audition until they find the best.

It seems like that many of us need to purchase online and audition in the home, as there tends to be fewer and fewer B&M stores in many areas. Of ccoarse, that's the best place to audition anyway.

[lsiberian]

That's a bit extreme and I had a 24" tall center above my screen, along with one below, for a few days, just to give it a listen.

It would be too much for my budget right now. But I've got more speakers than I need anyway.


Ya, some dedicated centers are just fine, but others are total crap. And for behind the screen one needs a very good AT screen.



It seems like that many of us need to purchase online and audition in the home, as there tends to be fewer and fewer B&M stores in many areas. Of ccoarse, that's the best place to audition anyway.

Personally I don't want anything other than PQ factored into my screen. I mean the picture is ultimately the most noticeable thing. Plus non framed screens will waive unless tab tensioned and those tab tensioned screens cost an arm a leg and 2 feet. And way more than a great front sound stage with one of those good centers that you can even aim at the crowd.

Yeah ID is really the way to go IMO and ebay if you know your brand preferences. For Infinity fanboys the beta auctions are a dream come true.

But there is a difference between well designed centers and poor ones. Tweeter above midrange at the very least. Some day I will build my own if I'm allowed hehe.:D

[jostenmeat]

It would depend if they were true horizontal mtm (that would be bad) or if the tweeters midranges were vertically stacked, with the mid-bass to the sides.

Yes, of course. I didn't type WTMW for a reason, but MTM.

But there is a difference between well designed centers and poor ones. Tweeter above midrange at the very least. Some day I will build my own if I'm allowed hehe.:D

And the extent of its off axis performance is still determined by the xover point between woofers and mid.

Even a horiz MTM might not be all too bad if the woofers' spacing was closer, and the xover point was lowered. I'm sure such designs are far and few between though. In fact, does anyone know of a "better" designed horiz MTM? (oxymoron, I know).

[DD66000]

Well I prefer having good sound all around and a smaller screen (65") than have a 100" screen and some half assed sound system. But if I were ever to go to a screen/projector, it would have to be an AT screen. The two sets of speakers I currently have are wall mountable, only 6" deep. Could put all three behind or just the center.

[CraigV]

Here's the link to the info I mentioned - a lot of info to read about, but very worth while:

http://www.grammy.com/PDFs/Recording_Academy/Producers_And_Engineers/5_1_Rec.pdf

[lsiberian]

Well I prefer having good sound all around and a smaller screen (65") than have a 100" screen and some half assed sound system. But if I were ever to go to a screen/projector, it would have to be an AT screen. The two sets of speakers I currently have are wall mountable, only 6" deep. Could put all three behind or just the center.

We all have our preferences. But I wouldn't call my center half-assed. I actually put my screen above my speakers so that's an option too.

[CraigV]

Of all the pieces of equipment that make up an audio reproduction system, speakers afford the most noticeable difference/change from one system to another. As such, they are also the most subjective, i.e. one person might comment that a speaker is very “detailed” while another person listening to the same speaker & associated equipment might find the sound to be “analytical”.

There is no right or wrong in this matter – if you like what you hear and it’s within your budget – go for it. It’s OK to come to a site like this to get some ideas, but don’t let anyone tell you what you should buy.

[lsiberian]

Of all the pieces of equipment that make up an audio reproduction system, speakers afford the most noticeable difference/change from one system to another. As such, they are also the most subjective, i.e. one person might comment that a speaker is very “detailed” while another person listening to the same speaker & associated equipment might find the sound to be “analytical”.

There is no right or wrong in this matter – if you like what you hear and it’s within your budget – go for it. It’s OK to come to a site like this to get some ideas, but don’t let anyone tell you what you should buy.

But do let us tell you what you shouldn't buy. Because there are products that just aren't worth their cost. And there is a such thing as lower quality equipment. A man who seeks counsel is wise. One who doesn't is a fool.

[DD66000]

We all have our preferences. But I wouldn't call my center half-assed. I actually put my screen above my speakers so that's an option too.

I wasn't referring to your setup, how could I, never have heard it.
I was speaking in general. I've seen many people buy a big screen, and either have no external sound system, or some junk, tin can size speakers they got for free when they bought the tv.
When I was using some old L55s for the LCRs, they were all below the screen, and gave a very good soundstage. I've never been a fan of having the LCRs closer to the ceiling than the floor. The top of my surrounds are 6ft above the floor so they clear the seat backs.

[no. 5]

Here's the link to the info I mentioned - a lot of info to read about, but very worth while:

http://www.grammy.com/PDFs/Recording_Academy/Producers_And_Engineers/5_1_Rec.pdf

There is indeed good information in that paper, however, it is lacking in recommendations for some important areas, for example, it says next to nothing in regard to preferred acoustical properties for loudspeakers, nor does it say anything about acceptable tolerances for low frequency response at the mix position.

There was an odd recommendation for surround sound mixing with regard to the center channel:
Another problem stems from the fact that most playback systems — even the most rudimentary consumer systems — allow each channel to be heard in isolation. Placing a lead vocal "naked" in the center channel, without other instrumentation to help mask poorly intonated notes, "auto-tuning" glitches, or bad drop-ins, can therefore potentially expose weaknesses in a performance and consequently incur the wrath of the recording artist and record label.
Certainly, avoiding the wrath of the employers is desirable, but the only way to isolate a single channel in a consumer home theater system is to physically disconnect the other channels, and though it is possible a person may unplug all but one speaker when listening to music, how likely is it?

[CraigV]

But do let us tell you what you shouldn't buy. Because there are products that just aren't worth their cost. And there is a such thing as lower quality equipment. A man who seeks counsel is wise. One who doesn't is a fool.


You mean like Theater Research

http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m164/cravnsn/505.jpg

(I hope I don't get banned for this)

[lsiberian]

That and the B company.

[lsiberian]

I wasn't referring to your setup, how could I, never have heard it.
I was speaking in general. I've seen many people buy a big screen, and either have no external sound system, or some junk, tin can size speakers they got for free when they bought the tv.
When I was using some old L55s for the LCRs, they were all below the screen, and gave a very good soundstage. I've never been a fan of having the LCRs closer to the ceiling than the floor. The top of my surrounds are 6ft above the floor so they clear the seat backs.

I know what you mean. When I see tiny centers I weep. My surrounds make better centers than those HTIB types. Of course they are Uni-Q so it's an unfair comparison. I will be building a new DIY front sound stage in the next few months. I can't wait to pair that with my DIY subs.

[3db]

A center channel is not a requirement for good home theater PROVIDED that a few conditions are met.

1.) First off are the seating positions; If teh seating position is such that it stays fairly inline with dead center between th eleft and right main channel, and
2.) if your main speakers image really well, then a center channel is NOT required to anchor the sound to the DISPLAY.

Howeve, I suspect condition1 is teh hardest one to meet and because of seating postion relative to the TV and left/right main speakers, a cenetr channel will better anchor the sound.

[jostenmeat]

A center channel is not a requirement for good home theater PROVIDED that a few conditions are met.

1.) First off are the seating positions; If teh seating position is such that it stays fairly inline with dead center between th eleft and right main channel, and
2.) if your main speakers image really well, then a center channel is NOT required to anchor the sound to the DISPLAY.

Howeve, I suspect condition1 is teh hardest one to meet and because of seating postion relative to the TV and left/right main speakers, a cenetr channel will better anchor the sound.

Hey 3db, as a pretty big proponent of having a center speaker, I will say that center speaker designs (and often combined with bad placement) are often poor enough in off-axis response, that two upright mains sounds better anyways, particularly if not in the middle.

So, I actually believe atm that your condition #1 is more important when HAVING a center channel (in most cases).

I am very aware that what I'm stating is the opposite of what is normally advised, just as you have offered. But, this is my experience! So I'm nuts, big deal. :p I will give up a tad bit of locking dialogue to display (which I happen to believe is often overstated anyways) for the very great improvement of dialogue intelligibility, and of audio in general.

[lsiberian]

A center channel is not a requirement for good home theater PROVIDED that a few conditions are met.

1.) First off are the seating positions; If teh seating position is such that it stays fairly inline with dead center between th eleft and right main channel, and
2.) if your main speakers image really well, then a center channel is NOT required to anchor the sound to the DISPLAY.

Howeve, I suspect condition1 is teh hardest one to meet and because of seating postion relative to the TV and left/right main speakers, a cenetr channel will better anchor the sound.

It's not required, but I still suggest it for most people. I don't see a reason not to have them. The supposed issues aren't that significant IMO especially with good designs. That's why I think people are being nitpicky, but maybe I don't care as much about the sound issues it creates.

[greggp2]

I have experimented quite a bit with this and I have B&W 802 speakers as my mains and an HTM1 as a Center channel. I really wish I could get away from the Center, because it is so darn large, that I can't buy a piece of furniture that I wanted to use to dress up my family room.

When I turn my center off and have the mains try to reproduce the voice, there is a loss if intelligibility with the dialogue. The speakers image very well and as long as you don't sit too far off axis, the dialogue is fairly centered, however, the voices are lost by the midrange bass of the speakers.

The difference is honestly night and day. I really wish it wasn't, but a Phantom Center just isn't the same as having a good dedicated center channel.

[DD66000]

I have experimented quite a bit with this and I have B&W 802 speakers as my mains and an HTM1 as a Center channel. I really wish I could get away from the Center, because it is so darn large, that I can't buy a piece of furniture that I wanted to use to dress up my family room.

When I turn my center off and have the mains try to reproduce the voice, there is a loss if intelligibility with the dialogue. The speakers image very well and as long as you don't sit too far off axis, the dialogue is fairly centered, however, the voices are lost by the midrange bass of the speakers.

The difference is honestly night and day. I really wish it wasn't, but a Phantom Center just isn't the same as having a good dedicated center channel.

For speakers in their price range, I would except good dialogue from the mains. It would seem that something need to be tweeted. Maybe the speaker positions, a more powerful amp, a boost in the midrange, or something else.

With the custom LCRs I use, I can't tell the difference between using a phantom center and using a hard center, as long as I'm close to the center line of the room, within 15" either way.

[CraigV]

I have experimented quite a bit with this and I have B&W 802 speakers as my mains and an HTM1 as a Center channel. I really wish I could get away from the Center, because it is so darn large, that I can't buy a piece of furniture that I wanted to use to dress up my family room.

When I turn my center off and have the mains try to reproduce the voice, there is a loss if intelligibility with the dialogue. The speakers image very well and as long as you don't sit too far off axis, the dialogue is fairly centered, however, the voices are lost by the midrange bass of the speakers.

The difference is honestly night and day. I really wish it wasn't, but a Phantom Center just isn't the same as having a good dedicated center channel.

I had to play around with my Kef’s to get them sounding just right. I adjusted them to be the same height, and level side-to-side and front to back (using the included carpet spikes) They’re toed in quite a bit now and the sound is solid all the way across. No issues hearing dialog & whatever else would be coming from the center speaker. Indeed, the pans across the front are much smoother, with no “roller coaster” effect.

[greggp2]

The Amp could be the issue. I ordered a dedicated 250 watt 2 channel Amp that should be in by weeks end, however, keep in mind, that I also am comparing it to having a beast of a Center channel turned on and off. I can still hear the voice audio when running in phantom mode, but when I turn the HTM1 back on, it's much, much clearer. It is also $3,000 speaker, so it better be doing something!!!

I'll let you know how much better it is when I get the new amp.

[DD66000]

It maybe a $3K center, but those 802s are what, about $6K/ea?
I haven't auditioned any B&Ws in years, but from what I've read they are very power hungry. And one review I read somewhere, online, stated they need a lot of power to bring forward the midrange, which would be the voice range.
Anyway good luck with the new amp.

[greggp2]

Thanks. I think the Amp should help, so we shall see. I'd love for it to produce a strong Phantom Center and I can shed my system of my Center Channel. They are selling on Ebay and Audiogon for $1,500 and my family room would look much better with the built in I want...

[MatthewB.]

Okay just got around to reading this thread and since I have three systems I feel I can give my points of view on these. In my guest room/office system I run my favorite speakers (AV123 Strata Minis) in a stereo configuration and the only time they sound real good is if your dead center, if not your gonna get more sound out of the speaker your closest to. This does not work well when more than one person is watching. My main system has very powerful DefTech mains and center and when properly calibrated does a great job all around although again when you go further off center the same thing applies.

My favorite though is my master bedroom system, because even though I have matching speakers all around, my Denon 3808 has this cool feature called "Widescreen" and what this does is apply some of the center channel sound to the mains, giving you this effect that your entire three speakers up front are one giant speaker but with great panning effects. So even though my center is horizontal (space issues) widescreen does the best job.

[DD66000]

My main system has very powerful DefTech mains and center and when properly calibrated does a great job all around although again when you go further off center the same thing applies.
The whole point of using a center is to lock the dialogue to the screen, no matter where you're sitting. Sounds like that horizontal center itsn't doing its job properly.


My favorite though is my master bedroom system, because even though I have matching speakers all around, my Denon 3808 has this cool feature called "Widescreen" and what this does is apply some of the center channel sound to the mains, giving you this effect that your entire three speakers up front are one giant speaker but with great panning effects. So even though my center is horizontal (space issues) widescreen does the best job.

Some other surround modes do the same thing placing the voices in all threee mains.

[greggp2]

I got my Emotiva XPA-2 in today. Hooked everything up and have been playing with Phantom mode and Center mode. I need to do a little more experimenting with movies and some Dolby HD formats on Blu-ray, but the Phantom mode sounds much better now. The dialogue is still not always locked on the screen, but the sound coming from the main sounds very hollow at times compared to when it is coming out of my mains...

To be continued

[CraigV]

I got my Emotiva XPA-2 in today. Hooked everything up and have been playing with Phantom mode and Center mode. I need to do a little more experimenting with movies and some Dolby HD formats on Blu-ray, but the Phantom mode sounds much better now. The dialogue is still not always locked on the screen, but the sound coming from the main sounds very hollow at times compared to when it is coming out of my mains...

To be continued

:confused:Hmm...I think you meant to say "center" here

[sgtpepper9]

For a while I had a quad set up, mains and rears and no center channel. I have to say, I didn't really miss it. But if I could afford one, I'm sure I'd get it :)

[greggp2]

I did mean Center.. Sorry...

:confused:Hmm...I think you meant to say "center" here

[VERTIGGO]

With my current setup (NS-777s and C-325) I agree that having a small center ruins everything! I have been leap-frogging my investments, so I'm in this predicament right now, but the hard part is deciding which way to go.

I like the 777s, but I'm not sure if they are good enough to merit purchasing the entire NS set (444 and 2-4 333s for surround). I have a hunch that I'll either want better mains someday (necessitating an upgrade of the rest) or that the center will still be somewhat hollow since the C444 only has the horn and 5" woofers. Of course an AT screen would solve my problems, but that's usually out of the question right?

They should make horizontal versions of every main they design. I would love to use an additional NS-777 for the center but it's so massive I'd need to build an entirely new enclosure for it... hey that's an idea!

[KODG]

perhaps the most important speaker! 60 to 65% of all sound comes thru the center channel.

everything else is right it must nbe the same timber & at the same listing position of your mains.

you can use a laser or other means to adjust your center to the proper listing postion (degree of angle).

[greggp2]

I tried again last night switching between Phantom mode and using my Center. I still think the Center sounds better. It's weird, some programming it doesn't make that much of a difference, but others it does. The clarity of the voices is much better with the Center overall. I didn't find myself really having to pay attention to what was being said, whereas I did when I just had the L/R on.