Warp's Build Thread... [Archive] - Audioholics Home Theater Forums

Warpdrv

11-03-2008, 09:51 PM

Well I got a start on my project, after wavering back and forth with ported, but opted for sealed..... Long overdue... :(

2 - 18" Maelstrom Sealed 24" ^3

3 - 15" TC-Sounds TC-2000's (1 for Nuance) 20" ^3

2 - QSC PLX2 - 2502 amps
2 - Behringer EP2500, fan mod

Picked up 5 sheets of 13Ply Birch Plywood.... Been cutting and gluing for the last few days... I haven't gotten the Maelstroms yet - backordered.

Thought I would post some pics of what I have done so far...

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0225.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0226.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0227.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0228.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0229.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0234.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0236.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0233.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0237.jpg

Only 4 more boxes to go, more pics as time goes on...

jostenmeat

11-03-2008, 10:03 PM

Looks pretty pro, man. :cool:

4 more? :eek: :D

Spkr_Bldr

11-03-2008, 11:24 PM

Nice looking box and subs ... you planning on veneering it up?

Warpdrv

11-04-2008, 07:34 AM

mike c

11-04-2008, 07:56 AM

what's the equivalent of the TC2000 to the audiopulse models? axis?

did i mention i hate you? :D

Matt34

11-04-2008, 07:57 AM

Another picture thread I have to wait until I get home to see, damn you Warp!;)

adk highlander

11-04-2008, 08:02 AM

Very nice Warp.:D One thing the new Hulk film let me know is that my sub is lacking. I look forward to these builds to see how they turn out. I may want to work with you down the road.

Warpdrv

11-04-2008, 08:09 AM

I believe that the Axis is somewhere between the 2000 & the 3000, closer to the 3000. Parts Express just had them on sale this weekend for $350.00 now they are back up to their regular price of $721.00
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-622&dotd=103108&orefer=dotd&orefer=dotd

avaserfi

11-04-2008, 08:09 AM

Thank you.....

This one will be painted..... its going to Naunces house....
My 18's will be in the middle of my great room and I will be looking to have them veneered, and then granite on top, I will also be doing magnetic grills hiding the magnets under the veneer.

I'm going to see how the 15's and 18's play together, I'll likely be running 1 15" with the 2 18's, to see what kind of extension I get out of them and smooth out the FR.

So your the friend Nuance mentioned! Good man :). I have already put the seed of a ported upgrade in his mind though heehehehe :D:p.

Despite their smaller cone area I expect the TC2000s to outperform the Mal-x drivers in linear, distortion free SPL. The TC offering is an extremely conservatively rated superbly linear device matched by few and only really outperformed by the TC higher offerings....

what's the equivalent of the TC2000 to the audiopulse models? axis?

The Axis is the model that falls between the LMS Ultra and the TC2000. That being said all three drivers virtually decimate all other drivers on the market in terms of linearity and sheer performance.

Tomorrow

11-04-2008, 08:15 AM

This is seriously good stuff, Warp. Congrats. Plus, it'll keep you off the streets for awhile. :) Please keep updating us.

I've soooo messed up my shirt with drool..........

(Brandon....I'm gettin' a bit of Nuance-envy, too. :o)

Warpdrv

11-04-2008, 08:28 AM

So your the friend Nuance mentioned! Good man :). I have already put the seed of a ported upgrade in his mind though heehehehe :D:p.

The Axis is the model that falls between the LMS Ultra and the TC2000. That being said all three drivers virtually decimate all other drivers on the market in terms of linearity and sheer performance.

Thanks, brandon was over last night and we were cutting up the rest of the wood for the 18's, so I look forward to getting them, but I will keep plugging away at each box.

Yeah, I have a feeling that I will still be happy with the Mal-X, with it being and XBL^2 driver, but I am seriously kicking myself for not buying a handful of the LMS-18's. I should have bought 4 of them.... Oh well, until the next state of the art driver comes out, I'll wait it out with the Mal-X. I was looking at the Acoupower - 18 @ $900.00 but Carlos never got back to me, he has been MIA. :(

Gluing up the inner front baffle and I'll start on the next box this morning.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0238.jpg

avaserfi

11-04-2008, 08:33 AM

Warp, there is no need to upgrade drivers. Seriously, you have some of the best ever made. If you decide you want more SPL just put the TC2000s in ported enclosures and use a DCX2496. You will be able to get the 'sealed sound' you prefer with rediculous output (135dB+ at 20Hz) and no distortion.

If you really want to upgrade, pick up some of those Axis drivers from PE. The biggest problem with them is that it is impossible to find an amp that will even use half their ability!!!

Warpdrv

11-04-2008, 08:40 AM

My only problem is that my room is so large.... 8200^3 open to everywhere in my house... Even the twin PB12-Plus/2's aren't enough in that room, but I'll be fixing that soon enough.... 2 of the TC2K's would not be enough in that room, ported or sealed...

I'll be putting the new TC-2k up against my F112 in my bedroom when its done to see how she does.

I bought one of these 2K's from a guy who just built the same Mal-X.... he took it out of his sono, tuned low... He is extremely happy with his Mal-X in comparison to the 2K...

Warpdrv

11-04-2008, 01:05 PM

Got alot accomplished today... Mounted the driver and binding posts, and driver seal, and just closed her up... Maybe I can test drive this baby tomorrow.. :D

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0241.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0240.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Dual%20TC-2000%20Project/IMG_0242.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Dual%20TC-2000%20Project/IMG_0243.jpg

jostenmeat

11-04-2008, 01:10 PM

Man, you are fast!!

Brandon must be pretty excited. :)

WmAx

11-04-2008, 01:23 PM

AXIS is the most current version of the TC-3000 motor. The REVO is the most current version of the the TC-2000 motor. The AXIS is supposed to be the model right under the ULTRA-LMS in performance.

I secured a couple of those 15" AXIS drivers for my new main 2 channel speakers. Now I have install a dedicated 20A line for each woofer..... argh....

But even the TC-2000 is an incredible driver.

-Chris

Gimpy Ric

11-04-2008, 01:50 PM

Thank You for all the pictures Warp! Nice job on the sub too!

Ric

annunaki

11-04-2008, 03:03 PM

Nice to see you actually doing something for a change :p ;)

The build looks good. I can't wait to hear how those 18's work out for you.

Let us know how the TC2K vs F112 comparo goes.

Nuance AH

11-04-2008, 03:32 PM

Heeeeeeeeey, I helped cut the wood and got glue all over my fingers! :D :p

Nah, warp is doing all the real work. I owe him a big debt of gratitude for this. I can't wait to get that TC2000 15 incher in my room! :D I'll be sure to follow the true subwoofer test...you know, this (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49024) one. :)

Nuance AH

11-04-2008, 03:38 PM

OMG, there is a second page, and it has pics of the completed subwoofer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: YEEEEEEES!

I'm all smiles folks! :)

Great job, Patrick. You are the man!!

mike c

11-04-2008, 04:49 PM

hey Andrew, Warp is overtaking you in building a sub!

are we there yet?

:D

ParadigmDawg

11-04-2008, 06:50 PM

Andrew has school and work to be completed before the build, Warp just had to quit shaggin" women for 2 days to free up time.hey Andrew, Warp is overtaking you in building a sub!

are we there yet?

:D

mike c

11-04-2008, 06:53 PM

Andrew has school and work to be completed before the build, Warp just had to quit shaggin" women for 2 days to free up time.

school schmool :eek::rolleyes:

who needs schooling? :eek::rolleyes:

women are more important!

:D

Nuance AH

11-04-2008, 07:07 PM

Andrew has school and work to be completed before the build, Warp just had to quit shaggin" women for 2 days to free up time.

LOL! I don't think he'll ever stop doing that. Women before subwoofers would be his motto, me thinks. :D

Nuance AH

11-04-2008, 07:08 PM

hey Andrew, Warp is overtaking you in building a sub!

are we there yet?

:D

Andrew is getting there. :) I look forward to his results.

Warpdrv

11-05-2008, 06:42 AM

LOL! I don't think he'll ever stop doing that. Women before subwoofers would be his motto, me thinks. :D

Yeah, guess what.... I didn't get any work done on any subwoofers last night...

I was busy... ;):D

Warpdrv

11-05-2008, 08:42 PM

Well tonight was the night..... dropped in the driver and sealed it up and brought the sub and amp up to my bedroom and ran with it....
Equipment
Paradigm Sig S4's
D-Sonic 500w/channel Ice amp
JL Audio F112
DIY TC-Sounds 15" TC2000 / QSC PLX2 - 2502

Brandon is over here right now, we are going back and forth between the JL F112 and the 15" TC2000..... In comparison, the TC2K is an extremely capable sub.... I am very very impressed. The F112 is also needless to say a very articulate sub, manufactured to be one of the best subs I have heard especially for music.
The ARO single band EQ on the F112 was disabled to keep the playing field equal.
First thoughts, the F112 has a touch better upper bass handling and performance, but they are so very close its hard to tell the difference, I had Brandon fooled a couple of times with the blind testing, where he thought he picked out the F112, but it was the TC. On the other hand the F112 struggles a bit more in the lower hz range compared to the TC, some of the deep tracks we were running the "David Gilmour - Live at Royal Albert" track is "Time" second song in, the bass here is darn near overwhelming and shakes everything in my room.... unbelievable... We were replaying that track multiple times with the F112 hitting 119db and the TC 120db... it seams the TC is amp limited here running at max output with the clip lights just barely coming on - on the QSC PLX2 - 2502. I know it could handle more power - but I can't say I am dissapointed here whatsoever... Amazing to say the least. We also ran through multiple musical tracks from Joe Satriani and others, judging performance I know the JL is awesome with everything I have thrown at it, the TC matches everything easily, and with EQ will be even better down low, not that its lacking, but a little EQ down low, and add in some boost in the upper bass I am thrilled to death. I have never measured my room nor did I feel the need with the JL, but I plan to bring my SMS in here to see whats going on, and add some boost to the low end rumble zone. :)
Brandon had a serious grin on his face....
In comparison, the F112 has an entrance fee of over $2000.00, and the full build out for the TC was around $650-$700 with the Behringer EP2500 amp and materials. To be fair, the F112 does things not many 12" drivers are capable of doing, and it does it very well, I have no regrets buying this sub, but to me I personally can't hardly the difference, so I could easily sell the JL and get a good chunk of my money back and feel no regrets...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0248.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0249.jpg

Nuance AH

11-05-2008, 10:59 PM

Needless to say, the first sub built a la warpdrv is a monster! In comparison to the JL it seemed to have every bit as much output or more, but it sounded cleaner and less bloated and/or lose. I am no sub connoisseur, but that's how I would describe it.

To get a little more specific, at first I thought the JL was better. However, after switching back and forth the DIY just sounded cleaner, putting out the same SPL with less effort. I think we may have heard a bit of compression from the smaller JL, while the DIY sub begged for more power. This certainly produced a less clean sound concerning the JL, which may may be why I thought it was a little bloated in comparison. I also agree with Patrick that the DIY doesn't have as much upper bass punch, but that could have been due to the room, the lack of EQ, etc. Down the road I'll be going with some hardware to EQ this bad boy, so I'll be able to tune it to my liking.

After we had finished I knew I could be very happy with either subwoofer in my home. However, when weighing in the price difference (even after I purchase my SMS-1) and taking into consideration how much fun this was for me (us), the DIY subwoofer/route is a no brainer. With the aid of warp's SMS EQ I know the 15" TC2000 could easily match or surpass the JL Audio Fathom 112. I honestly didn't know what to expect in comparison, but I left with a big 'ol smile on my face, unable to think about anything but the day I bring that sucker home for the first time. That will be a great day my friends!

Thanks for having me over again, Patrick. Your hospitality is among the best I've ever encountered, and you're a great host to boot. Thanks for everything, brother!

ParadigmDawg

11-06-2008, 08:43 AM

I think I will go ahead and build a DIY sub, I will call it the 'WARP CRUSHER".

jwenthold99

11-06-2008, 09:06 AM

Looks very impressive. I would LOVE to hear what it sounds like :D Is there a plan that you used for this? I would like to attempt a project like this in the future.

Warpdrv

11-06-2008, 09:08 AM

I think I will go ahead and build a DIY sub, I will call it the 'WARP CRUSHER".

You better hurry up, as my 2nd TC2K is already in build mode, and then comes the 3rd and Dual 18" Maelstroms to consecutively follow.... :D

Nuance AH

11-06-2008, 09:37 AM

I think I will go ahead and build a DIY sub, I will call it the 'WARP CRUSHER".
lol! Fair enough. :D
You better hurry up, as my 2nd TC2K is already in build mode, and then comes the 3rd and Dual 18" Maelstroms to consecutively follow.... :D
Oooooooh yeah! Your room is gonna boom boom.

Swerd

11-06-2008, 02:40 PM

Nuance

It's great reading about your DIY sub. The build photos are great. That 15" TC Sounds driver is a beast. Is it easy for one person to carry, or do you need a forklift?

Just one bit of advice: when you take photos, put down that power sander or at least turn it off, it makes your camera shake :rolleyes:.

When you're done with the subwoofer, maybe you'll be ready to build some real speakers next, you know, the kind with crossovers in them. I hear there's a guy named Dennis Murphy who has some real good designs.

Rich

ParadigmDawg

11-06-2008, 04:30 PM

Mine wont be ready until Christmas. The woofer is on the way but the box is going to lag behind a bit.You better hurry up, as my 2nd TC2K is already in build mode, and then comes the 3rd and Dual 18" Maelstroms to consecutively follow.... :D

Spkr_Bldr

11-06-2008, 04:41 PM

I think it would be really cool to compare your subs to a Rythmic Servo sub. And then compare it to an open baffle sub setup on music.

mike c

11-06-2008, 05:00 PM

Mine wont be ready until Christmas. The woofer is on the way but the box is going to lag behind a bit.

Christmas 2009 :D

ParadigmDawg

11-06-2008, 05:29 PM

That's not funny!

My little sealed TC3k should do just fine and it's this Christmas!
Christmas 2009 :D

Warpdrv

11-06-2008, 05:44 PM

I think it would be really cool to compare your subs to a Rythmic Servo sub. And then compare it to an open baffle sub setup on music.

Hey Ryan.... thanks for stopping by to post here... :)
Heheheh Well when you decide to bring those other subs over here, I'll be happy to compare them with ya... :D

Seriously though, I agree.... I am truly intrigued with the measurements/comparison of different designs of subwoofers... Personally I have more appreciation for the sealed nature of subwoofers... they may require a bit more power and can suffer from compression with lesser quality drivers,nothing a bit more power and EQ down low can't take care of, but none the less I still prefer them over ported. I would imagine that I will be getting some people all boiled over on my judgement call, so I will have to build a well designed ported, with a high quality driver before I can cr@p on the competition as far as design goes.. :)

Now-as far as the rythmik servo goes, a well known and respected audio reviewer/guru lends his comments towards the servo design as being a band aid for drivers that can't cut the mustard down low. Look at the AVTalk output compression curves for the Velo DD series and you’ll see what I mean. Conventional overhung motor is still king for sealed subs, just look at the F113. JL and TCSounds/Audiopulse are the kings of the hill as far as design quality goes.

Remember, in case you didn't know, that the Rythmik driver was originally designed and modified for rythmik by TC-Sounds, and is an early incarnation of the TC-1000 driver, which was/is a phenomenal driver in its own right.

As far as open baffle... you just took me way out in to the deep end where I have no experience, so maybe you could educate me on that one...although I would love someday to incorporate an infinite baffle into my setup, I have a really great space for it in my attic above my great room. I had thought about going that route, but it seems that it never took off for me... heheh maybe there was not enough work involved.... HA...

Patrick

Warpdrv

11-06-2008, 05:47 PM

That's not funny!

My little sealed TC3k should do just fine and it's this Christmas!

Are you getting a TC-3000......?

Thats the next step up from the 2000... <---- hey look I can count... :D

Anyways... nice driver... I would love to get a handful of those for myself..

Keep us posted... and go sealed, it will blow away the Paradigm Servo .v2, and let me give you a small piece of advice... get a bigger amp then the sub requires if you are going sealed, the 2000's are clearly amp limited, and can take way more, they are not even coming close to full excursion, maybe half and we were getting 120db in this room...

ParadigmDawg

11-06-2008, 05:58 PM

Yep, the driver is on the way.

It will be sealed and powered or should I say, under powered by a Behringer EP2500 or maybe two of them:D

My room is about the same size as yours so hopefully this will pressurize it.Are you getting a TC-3000......?

Thats the next step up from the 2000... <---- hey look I can count... :D

Anyways... nice driver... I would love to get a handful of those for myself..

Keep us posted... and go sealed, it will blow away the Paradigm Servo .v2, and let me give you a small piece of advice... get a bigger amp then the sub requires if you are going sealed, the 2000's are clearly amp limited, and can take way more, they are not even coming close to full excursion, maybe half and we were getting 120db in this room...

Warpdrv

11-06-2008, 07:23 PM

Where did you get the driver from...?
Congrats bro..... that will certainly be a step up in SQ and SPL from the Servo .v2, not that its a slouch by any stretch of the word... but it is slowly becoming a dated sub, and now is a good time to get your money out of it...

I promise you won't be dissapointed. :)

If you still have a chance to get a more powerful amp, I would suggest it, but you won't lose money on it if you were to sell it...
I just bought 2 of them for $500.00, I have yet to try it out on the TC-2000, but that will be soon enough.. :)

avaserfi

11-06-2008, 08:04 PM

It looks like this will be a sealed build. Ported would be better, but would take up more space than he has to offer right now. As far as amps go, I am not to sure of one that has significantly more power than the EP2500 while maintaing a decent price and high quality.

With regard to ported vs sealed subwoofers, yes, naturally they do have a different sound. This is due to ported subwoofers typically having extended bass response and a different roll off rate then sealed subs. For these reasons this is why sealed subwoofers are often called 'musical'. Now, with proper equalization this 'musical' nature of sealed subs can easily be replicated with a ported subwoofer. In such a circumstance the sealed 'sound' will be replicated while maintaining the higher SPL capabilities and extended bass response of ported design.

Of course, drivers such as the JL W7 series and these TC sound drivers represent a possible break to the mold. Due to their extreme linearity they are able to be put in smaller sealed enclosures and maintain a strong bass response even with equalization, the problem is large amplification needs. The cabinet I am designing for PDawg will require about 8kW to exceed its conservatively rated xmax at 10Hz and even more above that!!! Of course, even more efficiency would be had in a ported alignment, but it really isn't needed...it would just be cool.

Warpdrv

11-06-2008, 09:34 PM

Agreed.... There aren't alot of amps out there that are as cheap and efficient as the EP2500. I guess it gets to a point when you go sealed, how much power the driver can take, and on the other side of the coin, you have to ask yourself, how much is enough.

I can vouch for the TC2000 that I level matched it and ended up turning the amp down to 3/4 gain and still have plenty of headroom available. So in effect you will never, ever breach the limits of what the TC3K is capable keeping it well within its limits, and never having to worry about compression with the EP2500. My point is that with more power and adding EQ to boost the low end will produce some scary linear results all the way down into the teens... :D Boosting with EQ to raise the low end requires power, which gets exhausted quickly. The low BL of these drivers is great for small enclosures, which is why the maelstrom has me intrigued, I am hoping the SQ is as good as the TC's.

Are you using MDF or Baltic Birch....? What size box, and how much bracing are you using.... Its a fun build, sealed...

Here is a sweet little cut sheet, I changed around a bit for the TC2K's, but its a nice efficient use of a full 4x8 sheet. This one is for the 18" Maelstrom-X, my second TC2K is under way, and I will be adding more bracing this time around, as I feel its lacking, and I personally don't ever mind the extra weight, but it doesn't need much.

I would love to see your design layout, could you post it up here... Its nice comparing notes with ya....

http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n139/its-loud-dude/AVS/Shervins%20Cubes/CutSheet.jpg

Nuance AH

11-07-2008, 09:30 AM

and I will be adding more bracing this time around, as I feel its lacking, and I personally don't ever mind the extra weight, but it doesn't need much.

I hope my TC bracing isn't lacking... :eek:

ParadigmDawg

11-07-2008, 10:06 AM

It's easy to tell if he braced it properly or not. Steal his BlackBerry and look at his calender. If he had a date the night he was finishing your box, it is not braced properly, If he didn't have a date, it is.

Either way, he will tell you he did it right and you will have no way of knowing so just smile and enjoy it!I hope my TC bracing isn't lacking... :eek:

Warpdrv

11-07-2008, 10:58 AM

I hope my TC bracing isn't lacking... :eek:
As you already know, I added in an extra brace from that cut sheet, as I felt the long runs to me were inadequate, but before you take it home, I plan on adding in another set of bracing for that rear panel, when I was running it hard I was examining to see if the box panels were flexing at all, and only the rear showed minimal signs of this, I would suggest they are completely inaudible, but I am still not happy, so steps will be taken. A very simple addition, so not to worry.

It's easy to tell if he braced it properly or not. Steal his BlackBerry and look at his calender. If he had a date the night he was finishing your box, it is not braced properly, If he didn't have a date, it is.

Either way, he will tell you he did it right and you will have no way of knowing so just smile and enjoy it!

Smart man whores leave no traces of any or all activity.... :D

Nuance AH

11-07-2008, 11:38 AM

Nuance AH

11-07-2008, 11:41 AM

As you already know, I added in an extra brace from that cut sheet, as I felt the long runs to me were inadequate, but before you take it home, I plan on adding in another set of bracing for that rear panel, when I was running it hard I was examining to see if the box panels were flexing at all, and only the rear showed minimal signs of this, I would suggest they are completely inaudible, but I am still not happy, so steps will be taken. A very simple addition, so not to worry.
Cool, and I was just being silly. I know you'll take care of me. I sound gay...:o

I am glad it's not too much extra work; I want to take that sucker home soon and make sweet love to it! Wait...I never said that. :D

Smart man whores leave no traces of any or all activity.... :D
LOL!

Warpdrv

11-07-2008, 12:12 PM

Cool, and I was just being silly. I know you'll take care of me. I sound gay...:o

I want to take that sucker home soon and make sweet love to it!
LOL!

I have a feeling the wife and kids thing is just a cover.... :confused::rolleyes:

Nuance AH

11-07-2008, 03:34 PM

I have a feeling the wife and kids thing is just a cover.... :confused::rolleyes:
sshhh! What did I tell you about keeping that between us? ;)

ParadigmDawg

11-07-2008, 03:40 PM

Get a room girls, get a room....

Warpdrv

11-07-2008, 07:28 PM

Hey Dawg... where did you end up getting that TC-3000...?

Are there any more around...?

avaserfi

11-07-2008, 10:20 PM

Warpdrv

11-08-2008, 08:01 AM

Parts express has the current incarnation of the TC3k the Axis 15". Here is the link: http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=293-622

He got it for half price though cause I am awesome...

Thats what I thought, I saw they had them for $350.00 last weekend, I should have sprung for a couple of them....

I think I might have enough drivers now though...

2 - SVS PB12 Plus/2's
1 - JL Audio F112
3 - 15" TC2000's
2 - 18" Maelstroms on the way...

Nuance AH

11-08-2008, 08:30 AM

You're up early, warp. You working, same as me? Working hard...hardly working at all. You know... :D

Warpdrv

11-08-2008, 09:16 AM

At work at 7 am.... Just about to leave to pick up tickets for the USS Freedom Christening downtown Milwaukee
An Old navy vet customer said he can't go and is giving me his tickets.... :)
The thing does 40 knots.... almost 50mph.... holy ****
http://www.ussfreedom.org/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q98yrPKxmig

Warpdrv

11-08-2008, 08:35 PM

Made some headway on box #2 in the last couple days, just finished sealing with silicone, and mounting the driver.... thought I would share some pics...

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0138.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0140.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Sealed%20TC-2K/IMG_0141.jpg

Nuance AH

11-08-2008, 08:56 PM

Sweeeeeeeet! Dual 15's in the house! Well...along with quad 12's (3 SVS's and one JL Audio). Dude, you need more subs; wait, you're getting more! :D

gus6464

11-17-2008, 10:58 PM

Hey warp did you use polyfill inside your boxes?

Warpdrv

11-18-2008, 09:47 AM

No, I was told that polyfill is used to make the driver think its in a bigger box, If you make the box the right size for the driver, its not necessary.

I'm not totally sure what other properties adding fill accomplishes, so maybe someone can stop in here to explain the benefits or results.

highfigh

11-18-2008, 12:38 PM

Other than the driver acting like it's on a bigger box, it's good for a little damping but with the baffles in yours, I'm not sure it'll be necessary. Maybe some heavy damping foam on the back wall to keep anything from bouncing back, but that's about all.

I know cabinet grade plywood is very stiff- how much vibration do you feel on the back wall when it's cranked?

Warpdrv

11-21-2008, 03:46 PM

Ahhh.... Missed this one..... Thanks for the info highfigh, when I built brandon's (the first box), I didn't add a brace on the back wall, and as I was testing, it had a small amount of flex, which I did not care for so I added a single brace just like the one I have to break up the long back wall, that worked great.

I am just finishing my boxes for the Maelstrom-X 18" drivers 24" cubes, and I added 2 braces back there for the longer runs. The wood was layin around and I was bored so I put those boxes together over the last couple of days, now I just have to wait for the drivers to come, mid dec. :(

Here are a few pics.... with one of my TC2000's for scale...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2389.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2390.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2391.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2392.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_0152.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_0154.jpg

avaserfi

11-21-2008, 06:07 PM

Other than the driver acting like it's on a bigger box, it's good for a little damping but with the baffles in yours, I'm not sure it'll be necessary. Maybe some heavy damping foam on the back wall to keep anything from bouncing back, but that's about all.

Polyfill is useless as a damping agent. The only use it has is as increasing apparent box size of an enclosure as it relates to frequency response (it does not increase efficiency or cause other effects of increase cabinet size).

If one wants to deal with internal reflection issues use of a high grade acoustic material such as OC705 or 8lb mineral board is the ideal option.

highfigh

11-21-2008, 09:55 PM

Polyfill is useless as a damping agent. The only use it has is as increasing apparent box size of an enclosure as it relates to frequency response (it does not increase efficiency or cause other effects of increase cabinet size).

If one wants to deal with internal reflection issues use of a high grade acoustic material such as OC705 or 8lb mineral board is the ideal option.

In a low powered system, it does a little but as I said, it doesn't do much. Long fiber wool used to be a "go to" material before some of the newer ones were available.

avaserfi

11-21-2008, 10:07 PM

In a low powered system, it does a little but as I said, it doesn't do much. Long fiber wool used to be a "go to" material before some of the newer ones were available.

Power has nothing to do with damping ability. Damping ability is related to frequencies that need to be absorbed and a materials absorption coefficient at these frequencies. Polyfill has poor absorption characteristics and has virtually no ability to absorb energy at the frequencies that will be an issue within a subwoofer cabinet.

If improperly or untreated resonance issues are created by 1/2 wave resonances within the cabinet. This is a situations where a dimension of the cabinet relates to a 1/2 wavelength of a frequency produced causing a cancellation. Do note, a cabinet can act as a room and have complex interactions as well. There is also the possibility that a subwoofer can be designed to such a size that these 1/2 wave resonances are not an issue, if this is the case the only issue that would need to be dealt with is possible mechanical noise from the driver as well as complex wave interactions. In these cases the high grade acoustic materials previously recommended are still the optimal choice if efficiency is one's goal.

ParadigmDawg

11-22-2008, 08:34 AM

Get off this forum and get in the garage and finish my sub!

Boy, don't make me tell you this again!:DPower has nothing to do with damping ability. Damping ability is related to frequencies that need to be absorbed and a materials absorption coefficient at these frequencies. Polyfill has poor absorption characteristics and has virtually no ability to absorb energy at the frequencies that will be an issue within a subwoofer cabinet.

If improperly or untreated resonance issues are created by 1/2 wave resonances within the cabinet. This is a situations where a dimension of the cabinet relates to a 1/2 wavelength of a frequency produced causing a cancellation. Do note, a cabinet can act as a room and have complex interactions as well. There is also the possibility that a subwoofer can be designed to such a size that these 1/2 wave resonances are not an issue, if this is the case the only issue that would need to be dealt with is possible mechanical noise from the driver as well as complex wave interactions. In these cases the high grade acoustic materials previously recommended are still the optimal choice if efficiency is one's goal.

Warpdrv

12-12-2008, 08:10 PM

Power has nothing to do with damping ability. Damping ability is related to frequencies that need to be absorbed and a materials absorption coefficient at these frequencies. Polyfill has poor absorption characteristics and has virtually no ability to absorb energy at the frequencies that will be an issue within a subwoofer cabinet.

If improperly or untreated resonance issues are created by 1/2 wave resonances within the cabinet. This is a situations where a dimension of the cabinet relates to a 1/2 wavelength of a frequency produced causing a cancellation. Do note, a cabinet can act as a room and have complex interactions as well. There is also the possibility that a subwoofer can be designed to such a size that these 1/2 wave resonances are not an issue, if this is the case the only issue that would need to be dealt with is possible mechanical noise from the driver as well as complex wave interactions. In these cases the high grade acoustic materials previously recommended are still the optimal choice if efficiency is one's goal.

Thanks Andrew.... I'll be lining the bottom and back wall with some rockwool material or OC703/705, whichever I find....
Any suggestions for the best product would be helpful... I have a home depot and menards building supply house hear near me...

Nuance AH

12-12-2008, 08:41 PM

I just thought I'd post an update. I took an in-room response without EQ of the subwoofer using a 60, 70 and 80Hz crossover to my SongTower RT's. My room is not the greatest for sure, but it's not terrible consider I'm not using EQ. Or is it? You tell me. :)

60Hz Crossover
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp94/iviustang50h/60Hz.jpg?t=1229135752

70Hz Crossover
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp94/iviustang50h/70Hz.jpg?t=1229135774

80Hz Crossover
http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp94/iviustang50h/80Hz.jpg?t=1229135791

So, please enlighten experts. I'll be get getting an EQ sometime next year, for what's it's worth.

Warpdrv

12-12-2008, 09:21 PM

Nuance AH

12-13-2008, 09:04 AM

My preliminary thoughts, the 80hz crossover looks the best. Using the EQ, boost the 20hz range a few db, then pull down the 40-45hz range about 4-5db and pull down the 63hz a few notches as well for starters, you would have a pretty smooth response.

Your room is very playing a very interactive part here...

Is this a plot without the Auralex Gramma...?
Yes sir, that is without the gramma. I realized something, though. I totally forgot to adjust the sub level with the corrections added in for my SPL meter. I will try lowering the subwoofer somewhere around 4dB and will measure again tonight. Hopefully that gets rid of that midbass hump between 40 and 60HZ.

When I get the gramma, I will measure everything again.

Warpdrv

12-15-2008, 10:11 PM

Well as you guys all know, I am expecting my 18" Maelstrom-X drivers and the cabinets are eagerly waiting.... pics posted earlier....
I since that time have procured a few more drivers, which should be here this week, which I can't wait to get.

I bought a Pair of 15" Audiopulse Revo's (New) which are an improved version of the TC-2000 drivers with a LMS basket as well as other improvements. Very sexy looking drivers I do say myself....
http://www.audiopulse.com/images/revo2.jpg

I am also expecting the arrival of a 15" TC-3000 Titanium cone used for an amazing price I couldn't pass up the opportunity to have something new to experiment with. Another very sexy looking driver....
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e216/kramskoi/pic3.jpg
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e216/kramskoi/pic6.jpg

So my buddy came over last night to help me rip some sheets of 13ply Baltic birch to allow me a start on some boxes....
Today I started gluing up 2 boxes for the Revo's. 4 cu ft sealed internal - properly braced.
Here's a few pics of my start... Thought I would share....

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2429.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2430.jpg
Sides glued of first box
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2431.jpg
Start on second box... A couple of 15" TC-2000 drivers hanging out... :D
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2432.jpg

Matt34

12-15-2008, 10:42 PM

I'm jealous.:p

annunaki

12-16-2008, 03:20 PM

Warp,

How many woofers do you have now? What are all of the planned uses for them?

Nice work on your enclosures so far. I wish I had all of your clamps. I hate drilling. I think I just figured out my Christmas gift ;)

ParadigmDawg

12-16-2008, 03:35 PM

Wait a minute, I don't have an 18!

Andrew, build me one of those 18" Maelstrom things.....

Matt34

12-16-2008, 03:41 PM

Wait a minute, I don't have an 18!

Andrew, build me one of those 18" Maelstrom things.....

Dude, you have nothing to really be jealous about.:rolleyes: Axis 15", nuff said.

:p

Warpdrv

12-16-2008, 08:28 PM

HAhahah I love the clamps, just can't have enough of them, and worth every penny to me, now Home Depot has a whole bunch of new ones which aren't all that expensive. I'll be picking up a few more.

annunaki my intentions are to be using the 2 18" Maelstroms and 2 Revo's for reinforcement and balancing output in my great room together. I doubt I will have to run them full power all together. The Maelstroms are said to have fantastic upper bass and will go really low, and the Revo's will reinforce that kick in the gut 30-50 hz range nicely with the small inductance hump.
The TC3K will be replacing my TC2K in my bedroom.... We'll see what I end up doing with the 3 - TC2K's in the future... who knows.
Today was a great day... I got a couple of deliveries today.... The 15" Revo's, and the 15" TC3000 Titanium cone - basically the same as the Axis.

Line 'em up baby.... Driver Porn...
Revo's in Blue, TC3K front and center hanging out with the TC2K's...

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2434.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2433.jpg

jamie2112

12-16-2008, 09:11 PM

Damn those are sick....

Warpdrv

12-17-2008, 08:39 AM

Yeah I have been looking at the Revo's and it appears that they used the LMS baskets on them.... they are not like the picture above....

Nuance AH

12-18-2008, 12:11 AM

Soooooo sexy! I might have to break in tonight and take them. :):p

I look forward to hearing those bud. Oh, and augerpro sent his speakers to me today, so we'll have some cool speaks and new subs to listen to soon. OH YEAH!

Warpdrv

12-20-2008, 10:31 PM

Update.... Made some progress....

Box 1 for the Revo is complete.... here are some pics if anyone is interested.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2439.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2440.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2442.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2443.jpg

Still have to run the wire, install the Neutrik Speakon connector and run the wire, then glue the top on, clean up the edges with the trim bit then sand.

Box 2 is next up on the list...

WmAx

12-20-2008, 11:23 PM

Why no ported cabinet systems? Those woofers could really do some damage at 20Hz with a proper slot port. :)

-Chris

Warpdrv

12-20-2008, 11:58 PM

WmAx

12-21-2008, 12:07 AM

I'll agree with you to a point... although ported subs are not the end all - be all for bass. Personally I prefer not to have a port contributing in any way to the sound signature presented, I prefer a driver system that retains its air spring/driver loading. I also prefer a manageable, heavily braced cabinet size, where the rear wave is isolated from the front wave. For my bass reproduction I'd rather not hear the subwoofer, just the sound...

There is no question that a ported sub will offer greater SPL and allow a lower tuning and require far less amp, much more efficient design, but it doesn't mean its for everyone..

I'm more then comfortable by running multiple drivers to compensate....

A properly designed and built port system is completely transparent and you can use a DSP EQ to obtain ANY signature you want.

That being said, I will be using sealed cabinets on my AXIS 15 dual set up for my new main speakers due to size. The ported cabinets I would want to use would be a minimum of 11 cubic feet net volume, plus the massive slot port, etc.; total gross size would be around 13 cubic feet. This is simply larger than I want to deal with considering how I will be using them: LFE modules like Wilson Watt/Puppy with the the mid/treble module stacked on top, with matching base/profiles. But, since the room is a little under 2000 cubic feet, two of these in sealed 5 cubic feet enclosures with 2000 watts per driver, will give more output than I can ever use, by a factor of 10.

-Chris

Warpdrv

12-21-2008, 12:19 AM

That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with a sealed sub.

It seems your saying that you can make a ported sub sound exactly the same as a sealed sub. I would imagine the same can be said about a sealed sub, and you can use a DSP EQ to obtain ANY signature you want.

I guess we'll see how it turns out.... So far I am very happy with my sealed subs in my small room. F112 & TC-2000. It sounds 1000 times better to me then my dual SVS PB12-Plus/2s balanced with my SMS-1.

ahh you editted, so now I have to as well... that is exactly why I don't want to go ported with my setups... 13cu ft tuned to 15hz for a TC2K just isn't something I want to have lumbering about in my beautiful room...

BTW.... that sounds like it should be quite an impressive setup... Speakers IMO are just not made to do bass, I love separate cabinets... much more efficient...

Nuance AH

12-21-2008, 04:08 PM

I should add, I mean no offense dude. However, warpdrv has made it clear that he wanted to go the sealed route. Please respect that and lay off with the urge to convince him otherwise. This is his thread, he's happy with the results of his hard work (as am I), so why spoil that with useless comments like "you should have gone ported instead?" Talk about a party pooper. :mad:

annunaki

12-21-2008, 09:16 PM

Nice work there Warp. I much prefer the bracing in these latter designs. Keep the pics coming.

Which driver are you going to utilize in these again? Where are the Maelstroms?

Warpdrv

12-22-2008, 11:43 AM

Nice work there Warp. I much prefer the bracing in these latter designs. Keep the pics coming.

Which driver are you going to utilize in these again? Where are the Maelstroms?

Thanks..... The boxes I'm building now are for the Revo's I just acquired, I got a good deal on them and figured they may be a small but nice step up from the TC2K's, plus I like the look of the black cone better. The Mal-X's were back ordered, and were starting shipping this week. So I hope to see them soon, its been far to long already...

As far as the bracing, I haven't sealed up the Mal-X boxes just yet without the drivers here, so I can add a couple of extra little pieces in there with no trouble what so ever.

I got the Revo's just in case the Mal-X's didn't make me happy and I wanted to just go with all 15" TC/Audiopulse... If the Mal-X's work out for me, I have a couple of drivers laying around, I highly doubt I'll have trouble getting rid of them if thats the case.

Warpdrv

12-31-2008, 09:44 PM

Well so far I'm getting pretty good output with just 2 - 15's in my big room, and I'll be adding my 3rd tomorrow if time permits.... box is in the final stage of gluing. Running 1 TC2K and a Revo.....

I played around with EQ and got a good response in there.... Pretty much an automatic house curve with little EQ except for down low...

Thought I would post up a pic after EQ....

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2455.jpg

Funkmonkey

01-04-2009, 04:58 PM

Found it! Thanks for the tip... looks like I have some catching up to do here. :D

-Funk

Warpdrv

01-05-2009, 10:30 AM

Ahhhh welcome aboard Funk.... :)

Well I finished my 3rd sealed sub, dropped in a TC-2000 (unfortunately one of the Revo's has a bad voice coil, and there will be no replacements, just a refund, so I'm glad I have more drivers laying around), and started running some eq, and came up with some great response with the 3 in here... Now I'm all set to unload my 2 PB12-Plus/2's and move on...

It really sounds great and it has been worth every second of labor on all these goofy boxes... Next up 2 of the Mal-X's will be here this week, and I'll drop them into their boxes and bring them up here, I have a 3rd Mal-X on the way, not sure when its shipping, but I still have to build that box. We'll see how they compare. I will worry about final finish after I complete my testing and comparisons, but I have some good ideas for the finished look.

Here are some pics....

Before and after EQ.....
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2461.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2458.jpg

And some pics in room....
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2459.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2462.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2464.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2465.jpg

Time to unload the Plus/2's.... If anyone is interested.... PM me
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2466.jpg

Djizasse

01-05-2009, 10:41 AM

Really nice sub setup :)

This sub would look groovy with the front face covered with the fabric(?) on the wall:
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2462.jpg

Warpdrv

01-05-2009, 10:52 AM

Thanks Djizasse..... those are acoustic panels, I will be making magnetic grills, not sure on the fabric choice, it will probably just be black. I'll likely be doing an ebony finish on the whichever boxes end up staying in this room...

Still have alot of work to do on this room, i'll be adding carpeting under all the furniture, which will hopefully help and more acoustic treatment to follow down the road.

Djizasse

01-05-2009, 07:05 PM

Doesn't carpet only works on the higher frequencies, which normally don't need as much treatment as the low frequencies?

How are you making the magnetic grilles? I saw one on the Tannoy Revolutions and it looked smart.

Warpdrv

01-05-2009, 09:46 PM

That room is quite bright, so the bouncing around of high freq's is a big part of what I need to tame in there.... I even have plans to work on partially treating the ceiling, as it is a really large area for sound to bounce around.

Its not a perfect setting, but its what I have to work with... :D

The magnets will go under the veneer and will be hidden, so the implementation will likely be no different then the Tannoy's, just like SVS's implemetation of the MTS's. I do have to deal with the weight of the 1.5" deep grill so the magnets will have to be pretty strong to hold the weight. The top will be granite, so in the end, it should be a nice table...

fredk

01-06-2009, 09:05 AM

Thats a nice room to 'have to work with' Warp. With all those windows, I can see how it would be a little bright with all those windows, but I would kill to have that much window space in my apartment.

Warpdrv

01-09-2009, 03:38 PM

Mal-X's in the house !!!!!!!
I don't think I should have a problem getting these up and running this weekend.... Almost done, glad I had the boxes almost finished before they came...

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2467.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2468.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2469.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2470.jpg

Djizasse

01-09-2009, 04:28 PM

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2467.jpg

My wife says that you got to remove the sticker... LOL

WmAx

01-09-2009, 07:04 PM

I'm very curious if an 18" MAL-X can produce more linear SPL displacement as compared to a TC-2000 15", then how about a TC-3000 15"?

Of course, one will need more power than he has available on hand to find out. The TC-2000 was power limited in the tests on HTTalk with the 2400 watt Tapco amp. Maximum output was never determined as a consequence of not having more power on hand.

-Chris

Warpdrv

01-10-2009, 01:49 PM

My wife says that you got to remove the sticker... LOL

Heheheh That keeps drawing my eyes to it as well, but they are already sealed up now, glued them up last night and I'm working on them today trimming and sanding the enclosures, so I should have these 2 up and running tomorrow If all goes well....

I'm very curious if an 18" MAL-X can produce more linear SPL displacement as compared to a TC-2000 15", then how about a TC-3000 15"?

Of course, one will need more power than he has available on hand to find out. The TC-2000 was power limited in the tests on HTTalk with the 2400 watt Tapco amp. Maximum output was never determined as a consequence of not having more power on hand.

-Chris

You and me both Chris... I know I will get significantly more output from a 1 to 1 comparison just from the displacement area itself (33mm xmax - 40mm Xmech), and roughly the same linear travel as a TC2K (28mm Xmax - Axis - 30mm Xmax) and all the guys that have them running have stated the SQ from them is spectacular, with only 1500w required.... Eq'd they will require more, and I'll be running 3 - 2500w amps, 1 for each. I have yet to see any outdoor measurements, but WillD's straight from the cone measurement in room looked fantastic, but obviously that speaks nothing about distortion. He sold me his TC2K and had no problem moving from it to the Mal-X.

Tomorrow is the big day, and I will be doing A/B testing with the TC-2K, Revo, TC-3000, and Mal-X so we'll see what they have to offer.

I have enough of the TC drivers here on hand, but I would have to find enough space in my room to attain the output I need, of coarse If I were to have gone ported it would be less of an issue... :), but again no fridgerators allowed in my great room... :)

The Mal-X's have pretty much the same surround as the W7's just a bit more supple, not as thick. They are very nice drivers, but looks aren't everything... ;) They are not as sexy as the TC-drivers - that's for sure.... :p

http://www.audiojunkies.com/product_images/1880/exodus-audio-maelstrom-x-18.jpg
http://www.audiojunkies.com/product_images/1879/exodus-audio-maelstrom-x-18.jpg

annunaki

01-10-2009, 06:54 PM

Let us know how the testing goes. I am interested in the outcome.

Maelstrom-x's in huge vented cabinets tuned to 14hz or so would be awesome for a dedicated theater. Using them in large pillars they could blend into the room (aesthetically)if done properly.

Matt34

01-10-2009, 07:34 PM

If Kevin (the owner) wasn't so backed up I'd really be interested in these. I think one in a properly vented enclosure would be all that I would need.

annunaki

01-17-2009, 07:21 AM

Bump ;)

Any more updates here Warp? I am very interested in your results.

WmAx

01-17-2009, 08:14 AM

Yes, please, more updates Warp!

But I think I know the result beforehand. The TC Sounds drivers are limited by Warp's weak amplifiers(I mean, 2000 watts is a lot of power, but not to TC-2000, and especially not to TC-3000 drivers which have even more power and excursion capacity). The Mael-X 18", even though it's motor is probably far more limited thermally and more limited in excursion, is likely more efficient by a few dBs, leading to higher output with any given input power range. As a result, even if the TC 15" 3000 driver can out perform or match the larger diameter Mael X 18" potentially, it can not be realized without buying a relatively expensive amplifier that can output about 5000 watts.

-Chris

Warpdrv

01-17-2009, 04:30 PM

Good morning gents....

Ok guys.... I have had the opportunity to get my Mal-X's up and running, let me say the search is over for me to find the right drivers for this huge room. I am very happy with the SQ and output.

Now WmAx, avaserfi, annunaki and I like to toss around power capabilities, excursion, linearity all the time and rightly so as a very capable driver will have great output and stay clean, but that isn't the whole story of a driver. The TC-2000 and TC-3000 motors have a high BL and huge inductance and is not very flattering for response in the upper bass, I did not prefer this missing response. They are much more powerful and proficient in the low and mid bass, but didn't cut the mustard for me for that upper bass, and don't blend with my mains as well, I would suggest these drivers more if you have mains that reach lower and are more proficient in the upper bass band so you can crossover lower.

The TC-2000's sealed BTW are a perfect match with a bridged 2502, I'm getting full excursion on that driver and extreme output sealed. I'm not running them at full output of the amp, they will hard bottom. I found out with a Revo the hard way, that you still need a highpass filter in place, she came in for a rough landing and dented the cone, still works perfectly and I massaged the cone back into shape. The TC-3000 is a whole different story, but I haven't played around with that driver yet so I won't waste anyone's time on it. The TC-Drivers are great, powerful, clean and high output but, the high inductance and high BL makes doesn't give them the best upper bass, but for sure they are low bass winners, kick in the chest and punchy.

Now the Mal-X's haven't been measured but they are very very smooth throughout the entire bass range, but they definitely have an advantage in the upper bass and sound much more like the JL F112, very articulate. They are not heavy handed in one general area, but more evenly balanced throughout the entire range, which I respect alot, I'm not EQ'ing the down low very much and still getting good output down to 16-17hz in that big room, with a nice smooth response from top to bottom. I am running a single TC-2000 with them for now until I get my 3rd driver up and running, maybe I'll swap that for the TC-3000 ti cone instead. I am crossing over at 100hz and everything is just so seemless. I have crossed them over at 60, 80, 100, and 150hz and every one still gives me great smooth response in that room, and can be eq'd flat but I found that 100hz was just the best for me with these drivers.

With the boxes I built, they are already sized appropriately at 6 cu ft internal, so I didn't stuff the boxes, I chose to line the inside with egg crate foam to help break up any back wave.

Anyways, here are some pics for you guys...

Here's an pic so you guys have an idea of how large a room I have to work with, I know its not an ideal place for this type of thing, I am working at it slowly, but I don't do my critical listening in this room. Oh, also one of the drivers had a loose dust cap, so I peeled it and re-glued it back on with a 2 part epoxy and its perfect now. DIYcable offered to replace the driver, but I wasn't concerned about this and just fixed it here.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2476.jpg
Mal-X with TC-2000
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2475.jpg
Mal-X with Revo (you can see where I bottomed the Revo)
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2474.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2479.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2478.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/Subwoofer%20Builds/IMG_2464.jpg
Response before and after EQ
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2482.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2483.jpg

WmAx

01-17-2009, 04:54 PM

So, the 15" TC's are more powerful in the low end? Just trying to clarify...

As for inductance. You do realize, of course, the JL W7 at least as high inductance as the TC units. The difference is, the W7 is EQed out to a linear upper bass response, and cabinet is very small, which means it's easy to control the internal behavior of spurious noise, xover breach resonance, etc.. If you properly EQ the TC, say with a dedicatd parametric, the result will be similar, but you would also need to use some fairly heavy/dense dampening in the larger size cabinets.

-Chris

jamie2112

01-17-2009, 06:29 PM

I just found 3 JL W7 brand new for $500. This guys sister is selling them for him as he bought them and was called overseas. I should probably get them huh? Sorry to hijack Warp.....:eek::D

Warpdrv

01-17-2009, 06:53 PM

So are you saying the JL F112 and F113 are basically the same motor, but they don't sound the same, the F112 has better output and offers more upper bass then the F113, even JL is touting this info.

The TC's have a heavy natural hump and peak in the middle bass (40-50hz) In my particular room, stupid large - the 15's are not as capable in the lower end as the 18's. The 15's are working very very hard to achieve the output that the 18's are doing just barely working. The Mal-X's are working less to achieve the same SPL's - its a more efficient motor requiring less amp to get it moving.

Just by cone area alone the 18's offer the same displacement of 1.5 15" cones, thats obviously not including excursion. Kevin Haskins has stated that the motor starts loosing strength at about 25-26mm and is about 30% down at 32-33mm, so they are pretty equivalent in excursion. I tried to work that upper bass on the TC's with EQ and just couldn't get it to do what these Mal-X's do naturally. I'm only here stating what I have heard in my room right from the driver, no eq on either sub, swapping over the speakon cable from sub to sub.

The guy running the ported TC-2000 tuned to 16hz and moved to the Mal-X had the same opinion of the natural upperbass performance.

Warpdrv

01-17-2009, 06:54 PM

I just found 3 JL W7 brand new for $500. This guys sister is selling them for him as he bought them and was called overseas. I should probably get them huh? Sorry to hijack Warp.....:eek::D

I would buy them.... do it... they really need quite an amp to drive them each. Are they the 12's or the 13's.... ?

jamie2112

01-17-2009, 06:59 PM

I would buy them.... do it... they really need quite an amp to drive them each. Are they the 12's or the 13's.... ?

The 12's...............

WmAx

01-17-2009, 08:06 PM

Jamie... that's a super bargain... plan and simple. $166 per 12W7? WOW.

-Chris

WmAx

01-17-2009, 08:16 PM

So are you saying the JL F112 and F113 are basically the same motor, but they don't sound the same, the F112 has better output and offers more upper bass then the F113, even JL is touting this info.

Yes, they are the same motor type - of course they are different in so far as some variables - as JL uses an optimized motor for each size W7 that varies slightly from every other unit in the series, where as some companies will actually use the same exact motor on sever different size speakers in a line.

The TC's have a heavy natural hump and peak in the middle bass (40-50hz) In my particular room, stupid large - the 15's are not as capable in the lower end as the 18's.

To get the proper response, one would have to measure the response of the driver, then apply correction filter to only that driver, via a few parametric bands, to remove the peak and to bring up the upper response a little bit. Not at all difficult - but most people don't b

The 15's are working very very hard to achieve the output that the 18's are doing just barely working. The Mal-X's are working less to achieve the same SPL's - its a more efficient motor requiring less amp to get it moving.

I was just wondering. I know that some of TC drivers, like the AXIS/3000 for example, are extremely conservatively rated. The mechanical limits are probably in the near 50mm one way range, and the power handling for the AXIS is incredible.I think it would intersting to do a comparison to see how close the 15" TC3000/AXIS will come, with full potential power available to it, when compared to a driver with almost 50 percent more surface area available on it. :)

-Chris

jamie2112

01-17-2009, 09:47 PM

Ha ha the girl I am buying the JL W7 from just raised the price. She got way too many calls and now wants more cash.....lame lame lame:mad:

Warpdrv

01-18-2009, 04:33 PM

Yes, they are the same motor type - of course they are different in so far as some variables - as JL uses an optimized motor for each size W7 that varies slightly from every other unit in the series, where as some companies will actually use the same exact motor on sever different size speakers in a line.

It was just interesting to me that the F112 just has a more balanced sound throughout the range, makes me really appreciate its capabilities.

To get the proper response, one would have to measure the response of the driver, then apply correction filter to only that driver, via a few parametric bands, to remove the peak and to bring up the upper response a little bit. Not at all difficult - but most people don't b

I agree, but sometimes its not possible to make a transducer do something it just does not normally want to do. I tried to use the EQ to add more to the upper bass to the TC but couldn't get it to budge, maybe the SMS is just an inferior unit to try to apply that, but I atleast made an effort toward it. I did attempt this with just the single TC2000 all alone on the system.

I was just wondering. I know that some of TC drivers, like the AXIS/3000 for example, are extremely conservatively rated. The mechanical limits are probably in the near 50mm one way range, and the power handling for the AXIS is incredible.I think it would intersting to do a comparison to see how close the 15" TC3000/AXIS will come, with full potential power available to it, when compared to a driver with almost 50 percent more surface area available on it. :)

-Chris

I agree with you here Chris, the TC drivers have incredible excursion and they truly flex their muscles and you can see it. I don't think the design of the driver is the same as the Mal-X, the TC's will go all the way to the end and just bottom out, where the Mal-X was designed to really come in for more of a soft landing, stretching the surround to the limits will increase the resistance of the motor and make it harder for it to bottom as hard. I really really like the sound of the Mal-X, its very clean, articulate and balanced. Truly a big hit in my books

P.S. if you are interested, I just got a replacement midrange driver for one of my Paradigm Sig S4's, I have been driving my system very hard with the 1000ASP IcePower modules, and the VC was getting hot and starting to melt the protective coating, so I was starting to get that smell, so I figured before it takes a complete dump I would replace it. The driver was $200.00
Its really a beefy driver, but its a 2 1/2 way so it works in conjunction with the woof.

I know you like to play around with these things, If you were interested in measuring it, or playing around with it for a while your welcome to do so.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2486.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2485.jpg
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/speakers/IMG_2484.jpg

WmAx

01-25-2009, 02:45 AM

the 15's are not as capable in the lower end as the 18's. The 15's are working very very hard to achieve the output that the 18's are doing just barely working. The Mal-X's are working less to achieve the same SPL's - its a more efficient motor requiring less amp to get it moving.

Indeed. That's why I wonder about the TC3000. If it is exactly the same as the AXIS, then the 2000-2500 watts your amp can create, can just barely drive the AXIS to about 55 to 60 percent of it's LINEAR x-max, which is very conservatively rated. And from experience, I can tell you that sometimes amp clipping can seem like bottoming - but there is no way to bottom an AXIS with that little bit of power. The mechanical limit, in addition, is well beyond the x-max range on the AXIS, in around 46-50mm one way at minimum. In addition, TC states that they use special construction to give the AXIS far more thermal handling as compared to the REVO/TC2000.

So, I wonder.... put 6000 watts to the AXIS 15" and compare it to a Mal-X 18", and I would find such a comparison very interesting. The Mal-x wold have far less thermal handling I expect, and how would the end result turn out, even though the 18" has the considerable surface area advantage?

-Chris

WmAx

01-25-2009, 02:53 AM

I know you like to play around with these things, If you were interested in measuring it, or playing around with it for a while your welcome to do so.

Thank you for the offer. However, I have no suspicion that this driver would offer a specific function that I need to make measuring it worthwhile.

-Chris

Warpdrv

01-25-2009, 02:38 PM

Indeed. That's why I wonder about the TC3000. If it is exactly the same as the AXIS, then the 2000-2500 watts your amp can create, can just barely drive the AXIS to about 55 to 60 percent of it's LINEAR x-max, which is very conservatively rated. And from experience, I can tell you that sometimes amp clipping can seem like bottoming - but there is no way to bottom an AXIS with that little bit of power. The mechanical limit, in addition, is well beyond the x-max range on the AXIS, in around 46-50mm one way at minimum. In addition, TC states that they use special construction to give the AXIS far more thermal handling as compared to the REVO/TC2000.

So, I wonder.... put 6000 watts to the AXIS 15" and compare it to a Mal-X 18", and I would find such a comparison very interesting. The Mal-x wold have far less thermal handling I expect, and how would the end result turn out, even though the 18" has the considerable surface area advantage?

-Chris

True, I would be interested in knowing the differences, and guess what, that just may be whats going to happen here....

I'm hosting a Subwoofer GTG on Sat Feb 28th... There will be a large number of DIY attendees. It should be a fantastic shootout for comparisons sake. We'll have the power and equipment to do some measuring with REW. We'll see how things pan out.

A list of some of the stuff projected to show up......

SVS Ultra -13 TJHUB (AVS Member - local)

Rythmik 15 - merrymaid520 (AVS Member - local)

Ricci - XXX-18" & LMS-5400 18", SDX 15, QSC PL 9.0, Crown CE4000 (AVS Member - Louisville KY)

24" cube with an A15H and pair of 18" PR's - John Janowitz (AESpeakers) Green Bay, WI
Dual 18" vented subs with TD18H+ woofers, pair of the Lab Gruppen PLM 10000Q'- John Hanitz (Elite Audio) Eau Claire, WI ?

And of coarse my Junk... :)
3 - Mal-Xs 6^3 Sealed
2 -TC2000 3.5^3 Sealed
1 -TC3000
1 - JL Audio F112

jamie2112

01-25-2009, 03:24 PM

The Labgruppen amps are freakin incredible. I used those with a 28 box V-dosc rig for 6 years touring with 311. Those are incredible amps with major watts in a 30 pound package. The shootout just doesn't seem fair considering the guy is using those beasts.:D Me and 1 other guy could lift a rack of 6 LG amps with no problem at all. Once again amazing amps and VERY expensive. I would love to see what the dual 18s will sound like in a room instead of an arena....I wish I could attend your shootout Warp it sounds like a lot of fun.

Warpdrv

01-25-2009, 04:40 PM

WmAx

01-25-2009, 05:34 PM

Thanks Jamie....

I'm not sure, we may just those amps for everything, if there are no objections.

It will make things alot easier then swapping out equipment. We'll see how things go.

I think it will be alot of fun to play the shootout, its not just all about output for me, I am really after how the drivers differ in SQ.

Yeah, but to get truly accurate results of SQ, you need to do a level of analysis that just is not possible at such meetings as a practical limitation. That is, realize, 'my' standard of analysis is what I mean - which is of course not what a normal DIYer would ever consider practical.

Just listening in uncontrolled situations like this is making a conclusion with too many variables in place to make a confident conclusion.

I would EQ both to the same response, then record both at near field, then later mix the recordings back with a full range signal and listen over reference phones. For the listening test portion, anyways. For real time listening analysis, you need to EQ them identically, and have a rotation turntable behind an acoustic curtain that will place each sub in the same exact space.

My primary interest is a proper set of ground plane measurements.

-Chris

ParadigmDawg

01-25-2009, 06:21 PM

I would just drink a lot of beer and have a blast with all the subs....

Warpdrv

01-25-2009, 07:59 PM

Yeah, but to get truly accurate results of SQ, you need to do a level of analysis that just is not possible at such meetings as a practical limitation. That is, realize, 'my' standard of analysis is what I mean - which is of course not what a normal DIYer would ever consider practical.

Just listening in uncontrolled situations like this is making a conclusion with too many variables in place to make a confident conclusion.

I would EQ both to the same response, then record both at near field, then later mix the recordings back with a full range signal and listen over reference phones. For the listening test portion, anyways. For real time listening analysis, you need to EQ them identically, and have a rotation turntable behind an acoustic curtain that will place each sub in the same exact space.

My primary interest is a proper set of ground plane measurements.

-Chris

Well I don't have a Harmon Rotating speaker swapping device in my house, so I guess we'll just have to do the best we can as pathetic as that may be.... :rolleyes: I'm sure we can come to some conclusion with some general comparisons in a common room with some subjective listening... Does that make it perfect no...

But I don't think everything needs to be so freakin anal.... I can easily tell when something good sounds better then cr@p even through slight imperfections... I can sit around all day long and say my CR@P don't stink, but my farts will eventually give me away....
Think about it....

I would just drink a lot of beer and have a blast with all the subs....

There will plenty of that around.... This is Milwaukee, we have a really bad reputation to uphold here..... :)

WmAx

01-26-2009, 01:25 AM

Well I don't have a Harmon Rotating speaker swapping device in my house, so I guess we'll just have to do the best we can as pathetic as that may be.... :rolleyes: I'm sure we can come to some conclusion with some general comparisons in a common room with some subjective listening... Does that make it perfect no...

But I don't think everything needs to be so freakin anal.... I can easily tell when something good sounds better then cr@p even through slight imperfections... I can sit around all day long and say my CR@P don't stink, but my farts will eventually give me away....
Think about it....

I just hope that you can understand that this is MY standard, and I recognize that it's not easy or practical for others, and I was specific as to that fact.

But, would I be the WmAx that everyone has come to know without addressing the variables to this degree? :o

-Chris

Warpdrv

01-26-2009, 08:07 AM

I just hope that you can understand that this is MY standard, and I recognize that it's not easy or practical for others, and I was specific as to that fact.

But, would I be the WmAx that everyone has come to know without addressing the variables to this degree? :o

-Chris

Forgot to put a smiley in my post for my sarcastic tone....

;)

We do have intentions for close mic REW measurements of all the drivers, so along with listening comparisons, that should provide some more substantial info as well....

Warpdrv

10-05-2009, 11:36 AM

And the upgrades begin.... Got my first 2 LMS's on Friday, Michael Hurd was totally gracious to transport them down to me from canada !! Can't say enough about the integrity of Mike - a great man indeed !!!! And no slouch in the knowledge of subs, he has been very helpful... Thanks Mike

3 LMS's are on pre-order. and will take the place of the drivers in my great room, I will be replacing my F112 in my 1800^3 bedroom with one of these LMS's :D

Had an issue with one of my Crest 8002 Amps, one of the fans went out and I think overheated one channel - getting a red light on one channel... Hoping it blew a fuse I can just replace :( I haven't looked into it any further at this point, but its on my list of things to do, but right now I'm running 2 LMS's, 1 TC3000 on my 3 crest amps, and a TC2000 behind the LP off a EP2500.... things sound fantastic in here at this point... better tighter and cleaner then they every have - with no signs of distress at all...

I'll be looking for a DCX 2496 from Mikes suggestion to further improve proper delay, phase, EQ and basic individual driver control...

Here are a few crappy Iphone pics for ya... Thought you all would like to see, they dropped right in the Mal-X boxes, though my cutout was a little too tight for the rubber gasket, I'll have to route it a touch bigger, that should be fun... :o

Brandon/Nuance left - Mike Hurd on the right...
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/LMS/1.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/Warpdrv/LMS/2.jpg

Warp

lsiberian

10-05-2009, 11:51 AM

Nice to see you getting stuff done. :D

Warpdrv

10-05-2009, 12:05 PM

Nice to see you getting stuff done. :D

Thanks guys... getting ones hands on LMS's has been almost an insurmountable task.... Monsters indeed :D

adk highlander

10-05-2009, 12:28 PM

mike c

10-05-2009, 05:16 PM

i hope you did a side by side pic with the mal-x's! :)

Warpdrv

10-05-2009, 07:35 PM

Great stuff Warp. I've been keeping tabs on your SVS AS-EQ1 thread over at AVS and read you were waiting for these. When you get a chance please post some more pics of the drivers. Lets the rest of us dream.:rolleyes:

I won't be ordering one of those, as I have 4 drivers interacting in my room which I will work with the Behringer DCX 2496 and then my Anthem D2v's ARC will work its magic to smooth things out from top to bottom...

Brandon/Nuance and I measured my room after ARC did its thing in here, and we were both blown away by how flat my room measured in multiple spots from top to bottom... I was thrilled with the performance.... :D

i hope you did a side by side pic with the mal-x's! :)

I will post some real side by side pics with a real camera when I get a chance Mike... :)

Got a Packer / Vikings game to watch right now.. :)

WmAx

10-06-2009, 02:31 AM

lsiberian

10-06-2009, 09:32 AM

Matt34

10-06-2009, 09:44 AM

And the upgrades begin.... Got my first 2 LMS's on Friday, Michael Hurd was totally gracious to transport them down to me from canada !! Can't say enough about the integrity of Mike - a great man indeed !!!! And no slouch in the knowledge of subs, he has been very helpful... Thanks Mike

3 LMS's are on pre-order. and will take the place of the drivers in my great room, I will be replacing my F112 in my 1800^3 bedroom with one of these LMS's :D

Had an issue with one of my Crest 8002 Amps, one of the fans went out and I think overheated one channel - getting a red light on one channel... Hoping it blew a fuse I can just replace :( I haven't looked into it any further at this point, but its on my list of things to do, but right now I'm running 2 LMS's, 1 TC3000 on my 3 crest amps, and a TC2000 behind the LP off a EP2500.... things sound fantastic in here at this point... better tighter and cleaner then they every have - with no signs of distress at all...

I'll be looking for a DCX 2496 from Mikes suggestion to further improve proper delay, phase, EQ and basic individual driver control...

Here are a few crappy Iphone pics for ya... Thought you all would like to see, they dropped right in the Mal-X boxes, though my cutout was a little too tight for the rubber gasket, I'll have to route it a touch bigger, that should be fun... :o

Warp

I never get tired of seeing those monster subs and with the power you have going to them I can only imagine what they sound like, even in a huge room such as yours.

Warpdrv

10-06-2009, 10:20 AM

You are putting insane investment into buying the a large number of the best subwoofer drivers in the world (based on acoustic tests and objective motor analysis).

So when will you be getting mains to match the quality of the subs? :D

Perhaps B&W 802D?

-Chris
Hey Chris, I love sealed subs and obviously I need some ridiculous excursion for this stupid big room, so the LMS's were the only way to go in this situation - its a compromise for an environment at best, but I'll be here for a long time, so I don't mind investing in quality bass.
Most def. an upgrade for my mains will be in order... 802D's would be pretty impressive, too bad my layout couldn't accommodate their large nature or weight.. It will probably be in the realm of Sig S8's....

I think only a custom design would be worthy of Warp's detail.

I wouldn't presume to think I could ever build a quality speaker, just far too complicated for me - compared to building the simple design of a sub, and sealed is so easy, nothing that needs really alot of detail... The boxes are nice, and I'll still be veneering them and putting granite on top to finish.

I never get tired of seeing those monster subs and with the power you have going to them I can only imagine what they sound like, even in a huge room such as yours.

The TC drivers really sound great best I have heard - just so tight and controlled - no compromise in build quality.

lsiberian

10-06-2009, 10:31 AM

I wouldn't presume to think I could ever build a quality speaker, just far too complicated for me - compared to building the simple design of a sub, and sealed is so easy, nothing that needs really alot of detail... The boxes are nice, and I'll still be veneering them and putting granite on top to finish.

It's complex for sure. Constraint layering paired with a dense bracing matrix and dampening. I don't know if I'll ever complete my project for this.

WmAx

10-06-2009, 05:02 PM

I think only a custom design would be worthy of Warp's detail.

I can not think of any custom DIY jobs posted on DIY forums that are a match to the 802D. There is a guy I know of that does this level of quality - but it's a professional custom builder, not a DIYer per say....

-Chris

lsiberian

10-06-2009, 05:08 PM

I can not think of any custom DIY jobs posted on DIY forums that are a match to the 802D. There is a guy I know of that does this level of quality - but it's a professional custom builder, not a DIYer per say....

-Chris

7k is a lot of money for a speaker especially on a tight budget. :) I don't think I could ever spend that much on a speaker.

Still if it's anything like the 705 series. I'd be in heaven. I love their 705 bookshelf series speakers. Listening to them was an experience I'll never forget.

Warpdrv

10-07-2009, 06:55 PM

The 802D's are $14K a pair, and blow the 700 series away, in fact I didn't feel anything in the 700 series sounded very good to my ears at all - basically nothing under the 803D really left me with a very good impression...

I can get a significant discount on Paradigm products... I'll be paying no where near $7k... plus - I gots me a sugar mama - enough said :)

WmAx

10-07-2009, 08:18 PM

annunaki

10-07-2009, 08:35 PM

Warp, one alternative is to buy used. Search for the B&W 801 Matrix Series II or Series III. These nearly match the performance of today's 802D/801D. Pricing for excellent condition is usually around $3500-$5000 in auctions. You can also find the 802N for around $5000. It is very similar to the 802D. The only difference is the tweeter; the D has a diamond tweeter and the N has a metal alloy tweeter. The D has a little bit flatter response.

Either one will work superbly with a Behringer DCX2496 to achieve nearly any sound signature that you so desire, as the upper end B&W units referenced by me in this thread have absolute inaudible cabinets and a very linear overall response.

-Chris

The 802N & 801N are fantastic speakers. I have done extensive listening to both in an acoustically treated room. I would have no reservations about having either of them. It is amazing the level of detail present when resonances are under control/inaudible.

They are (still) my reference standard.

Warpdrv

10-07-2009, 11:36 PM

Thanks for the suggestions guys....

I have nothing but appreciation for the higher end B&W, they are just too large of a footprint for my needs and layout... its just not possible for me to put a speaker of that size/width in the place I am looking to accommodate.

The slim tower of the Sigs are more geared toward what I need for my space, though they may be a compromise in build quality for some.

Their SQ is def up to par for my negligible room..... I truly appreciate the tweeter... very much on par with some of the best ribbon tweeters I have ever heard...

ParadigmDawg

10-08-2009, 08:31 AM

What are your thoughts on the B&W Nautilus 804s? The Monkey and I listened to some the other day and I was highly impressed, even more so then I was with the Sigs. They were in very different rooms so that may have been the difference.Warp, one alternative is to buy used. Search for the B&W 801 Matrix Series II or Series III. These nearly match the performance of today's 802D/801D. Pricing for excellent condition is usually around $3500-$5000 in auctions. You can also find the 802N for around $5000. It is very similar to the 802D. The only difference is the tweeter; the D has a diamond tweeter and the N has a metal alloy tweeter. The D has a little bit flatter response.

Either one will work superbly with a Behringer DCX2496 to achieve nearly any sound signature that you so desire, as the upper end B&W units referenced by me in this thread have absolute inaudible cabinets and a very linear overall response.

-Chris

Warpdrv

10-08-2009, 11:16 AM

I haven't heard them for quite some time, I would really have to listen to them again... I will state that It was probably the room and placement with all the rest of the line right there as well, but with that said, I can't say that they impressed me more then the Sigs with the Be tweeter or the Salk HT2's ribbbon for that matter. They tended to be a little laid back to me... again I would have to go back and listen to them again.

In my situation, one also has to look at the other speakers available in the line for a HT setup, and I truly didn't care for the 805S at all... I guess it would be more important if they would be used for mains, but they would only be surrounds, and there is absolutely no way I could make any of those B&W center channels work for me.... Most B&W's sound to me don't seem to justify their price IMO.

I am somewhat in a position of compromise with my setup and layout as stated, but that wouldn't make me feel unhappy with a pair of Sigs....

highfigh

10-08-2009, 09:36 PM

It's complex for sure. Constraint layering paired with a dense bracing matrix and dampening. I don't know if I'll ever complete my project for this.

If you want a stiffer box, why not add a second layer of MDF or whatever material to the outside? You could also build a box on the outside that leaves space inside so you can fill it with sand. If you want dead, that will be dead. Not hard to do, either.

highfigh

10-08-2009, 09:42 PM

Warpdrv

10-08-2009, 10:42 PM

Do you work at Flanner's?

No, although I have auditioned the Monitor Audio's PL300's there though, they were impressive, and very sexy might I add - but I had my reserves on them concerning SQ... The ribbons were extremely nice but somewhat beaming in nature... the room is probably cause being one of the worst I have ever auditioned speakers in... as you know powered by McIntosh Gear... seriously - the sound of the PL300's pretty much overcame the poor acoustics of the room.. they really were that good - to me..... and obviously left an impression on me.

But the next audition after that was the Salk HT2's TL.... Now that to me was what a full range speaker should consist of. I had to get up and check to see his Ultra13 wasn't on.... and mid's were spectacular plus a tweeter to die for - excellent dispersion....

highfigh

10-09-2009, 08:50 AM

No, although I have auditioned the Monitor Audio's PL300's there though, they were impressive, and very sexy might I add - but I had my reserves on them concerning SQ... The ribbons were extremely nice but somewhat beaming in nature... the room is probably cause being one of the worst I have ever auditioned speakers in... as you know powered by McIntosh Gear... seriously - the sound of the PL300's pretty much overcame the poor acoustics of the room.. they really were that good - to me..... and obviously left an impression on me.

But the next audition after that was the Salk HT2's TL.... Now that to me was what a full range speaker should consist of. I had to get up and check to see his Ultra13 wasn't on.... and mid's were spectacular plus a tweeter to die for - excellent dispersion....

I wondered because you mentioned Sig S8- I assume these are Signature Silver, right? Don't they sell these, too?

Interesting that the room is so bad. When I worked for them and they were at Mayfair, we built a little theater with a system called Frox and I installed panels in that room because of the flutter and other acoustical problems. Apparently, the improvements were completely forgotten by them or they just don't care.

ParadigmDawg

10-09-2009, 09:23 AM

Warp owns Wisconsin so I doubt that he works anywhere.....;)Do you work at Flanner's?

WmAx

10-09-2009, 10:57 AM

What are your thoughts on the B&W Nautilus 804s? The Monkey and I listened to some the other day and I was highly impressed, even more so then I was with the Sigs. They were in very different rooms so that may have been the difference.

It's okay. But realize, even the 802D/801D is not producing the SQ I am accustomed to. So to me, the 802D is even a compromise, and it's even harder for me to fathom going down to the 804. But, if the 804 was paired with an appropriate DSP crossover with EQ controls, and crossed to proper subs, then it would have some serious potential, at least so far as most people are concerned. It is overall a very neutral speaker, with some cabinet resonance(less than most, however). This makes it a prime candidate for DSP control to obtain the specific tonal balance(the main thing most people are hearing as differences among most decent quality monopolar speakers) that one prefers.

-Chris

Warpdrv

10-09-2009, 11:15 AM

I wondered because you mentioned Sig S8- I assume these are Signature Silver, right? Don't they sell these, too?

Interesting that the room is so bad. When I worked for them and they were at Mayfair, we built a little theater with a system called Frox and I installed panels in that room because of the flutter and other acoustical problems. Apparently, the improvements were completely forgotten by them or they just don't care.

The Sig S8's are Paradigms flagship speaker.... http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference/fronts-signature-signatures8-model-2-17-1-34.paradigm
Not sure if your thinking about the Monitor Audio Silvers, which I wouldn't even consider...

Apperantly Flanners doesn't really care about speaker auditions all that much, their 2 major speaker display room are packed with about 15-20 pairs each... and glass walls - not much in the way of treatment to be seen.

Warp owns Wisconsin so I doubt that he works anywhere.....;)

Not yet, but I'm workin on it... :)

ParadigmDawg

10-09-2009, 11:27 AM

How are the cabinets on the Studio 100's?

Sorry to walk all over your thread Warp. Not like I haven't done it before....:oIt's okay. But realize, even the 802D/801D is not producing the SQ I am accustomed to. So to me, the 802D is even a compromise, and it's even harder for me to fathom going down to the 804. But, if the 804 was paired with an appropriate DSP crossover with EQ controls, and crossed to proper subs, then it would have some serious potential, at least so far as most people are concerned. It is overall a very neutral speaker, with some cabinet resonance(less than most, however). This makes it a prime candidate for DSP control to obtain the specific tonal balance(the main thing most people are hearing as differences among most decent quality monopolar speakers) that one prefers.

-Chris

WmAx

10-11-2009, 01:22 PM

How are the cabinets on the Studio 100's?

Sorry to walk all over your thread Warp. Not like I haven't done it before....:o

On the 1st version, it was actually a relatively low resonance cabinet system. Later versions seem to have slacked up (presumably for cost savings?).

In any case, it is far from my idea of the ideal monopolar speaker.

(Go used B&W 801 Series II/III Matrix! :) It's a respectable, TRUE hi-fi monopolar speaker that can be had for real-world budgets. )

-Chris

highfigh

10-11-2009, 01:58 PM

The Sig S8's are Paradigms flagship speaker.... http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference/fronts-signature-signatures8-model-2-17-1-34.paradigm
Not sure if your thinking about the Monitor Audio Silvers, which I wouldn't even consider...

Apperantly Flanners doesn't really care about speaker auditions all that much, their 2 major speaker display room are packed with about 15-20 pairs each... and glass walls - not much in the way of treatment to be seen.

Not yet, but I'm workin on it... :)

The Monitor are the ones I thought you referred to and I couldn't understand why anyone would say these things about them. One of my customers went there and bought a pair on impulse and isn't that geeked on them. Definitely not the speaker for that room and I wasn't impressed at all. I think my 6-1/2" two-ways would have sounded better.

I haven't been out there in quite a while but I thought the last store was better, even if it isn't the way I would design a store for this use.