Record player question

[Cygnus]

Okay, here's the deal, I just bought Steely Dan's Gaucho, and Rush's Snakes and Arrows on 180gram wicked-awesome vinyl. I also have these:
Feist - Let it Die (canadian version)
Feist - The Reminder (white vinyl version)
Emily Haines & The Soft Skeleton - Knives Don't Have Your Back
Led Zeppelin I on 180gram vinyl


Okay so here's my dilemma. I could spend a lot of dough and get an Audio Technica AT-PL120 (about $350 off of eBay) or a PL50 off of eBay for about $100. The PL120 is direct drive (which I have been led to beleive is the best thing since sliced bread, as opposed to belt drive) They both have built in pre-amps which is a total plus for me because I dont want to buy another amp for just this.

Will I notice a huge difference between these two, or can I just play it safe and go for the cheaper one? What do you guys think?

[Cygnus]

I've actually been reading reviews on the AT-PL50 and a lot of people say that it skips their records. Is this a customer set up issue? I don't know but its kind of veering me away from purchasing it. I was also looking at a $200 sony, but I dont know. Now I'm looking at reviews for the AT-PL120 and there is one review that says that the anti-skate function doesn't work at all and thaty once the arm reaches the end of the record, it'lll slide right across the smooth part, scratching it. Good lord, im flustered!

[MidnightSensi]

You can find Technics 1200 and 1210 mk. II turntables pretty cheap on eBay. Get the real thing.

Info on the Technics 1200/10:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL-1200

I got two. ;)

[Seth=L]

I second the recommendation of the Technics SL-1200. I have an SL-1200MK3. Technics designed the SL-1200 first and foremost as a home audio product. It's design intent was to be the best mass production record player available. They spent a lot of money (equivelent to millions today) researching and designing the "perfect" turntable. The SL-1200 has been in production since the early 70's and has had 5 major revisions since it's conception. They are still sold today, and due to their stellar build quality and durability they are the choice TT for DJs around the world.

If you put a good cartridge on the Technics, such as the Denon DL-110, it will outperform basically anything under a grand.:)

[TLS Guy]

Okay, here's the deal, I just bought Steely Dan's Gaucho, and Rush's Snakes and Arrows on 180gram wicked-awesome vinyl. I also have these:
Feist - Let it Die (canadian version)
Feist - The Reminder (white vinyl version)
Emily Haines & The Soft Skeleton - Knives Don't Have Your Back
Led Zeppelin I on 180gram vinyl


Okay so here's my dilemma. I could spend a lot of dough and get an Audio Technica AT-PL120 (about $350 off of eBay) or a PL50 off of eBay for about $100. The PL120 is direct drive (which I have been led to beleive is the best thing since sliced bread, as opposed to belt drive) They both have built in pre-amps which is a total plus for me because I dont want to buy another amp for just this.

Will I notice a huge difference between these two, or can I just play it safe and go for the cheaper one? What do you guys think?

There is nothing wrong with belt drive turntables, in fact they are preferred over direct drive, unless a fast starting speed and high torque is mandatory. The reason being that there is always a slight cog effect from servo controlled motors. They don't spin in a completely smooth fashion. The drive belt damps this out.

Now the problem I see with the cheaper turntable is the arm looks like a nasty device. It does not say there is a counterweight or that the tracking force is adjustable. I'm suspicious it is a sprung balanced arm which is never a good thing. Also the arm is automatic, so the stylus has to drag a lot of extra mechanism. I don't think there is any skating force compensation either. I think the turntable is likely OK, but I have severe reservations about the pickup arm.

A well designed pickup arm is one of the most important features of a record playing deck.

[Cygnus]

Do the 1200's have built in pre-amps? I'm also worried about buying used players because of noise from dust or whatever already on the needle. Would that be a big concern? I'm looking to buy a turntable for 2 reasons
1: So I can listen to the vinyl, obviously
2: So I can convert it myself for my ipod, so I can have high quality version of these albums. I dont want a USB-to-MP3 because that totally defeats the purpose of keeping quality. I would go direct from the turntable (or amp as the case may be) to my PC and save them as WAV's and slap that on my ipod.

[TLS Guy]

Okay, here's the deal, I just bought Steely Dan's Gaucho, and Rush's Snakes and Arrows on 180gram wicked-awesome vinyl. I also have these:
Feist - Let it Die (canadian version)
Feist - The Reminder (white vinyl version)
Emily Haines & The Soft Skeleton - Knives Don't Have Your Back
Led Zeppelin I on 180gram vinyl


Okay so here's my dilemma. I could spend a lot of dough and get an Audio Technica AT-PL120 (about $350 off of eBay) or a PL50 off of eBay for about $100. The PL120 is direct drive (which I have been led to beleive is the best thing since sliced bread, as opposed to belt drive) They both have built in pre-amps which is a total plus for me because I dont want to buy another amp for just this.

Will I notice a huge difference between these two, or can I just play it safe and go for the cheaper one? What do you guys think?

There is nothing wrong with belt drive turntables, in fact they are preferred over direct drive, unless a fast starting speed and high torque is mandatory. The reason being that there is always a slight cog effect from servo controlled motors. They don't spin in a completely smooth fashion. The drive belt damps this out.

Now the problem I see with the cheaper turntable is the arm looks like a nasty device. It does not say there is a counterweight or that the tracking force is adjustable. I'm suspicious it is a sprung balanced arm which is never a good thing. Also the arm is automatic, so the stylus has to drag a lot of extra mechanism. I don't think there is any skating force compensation either. I think the turntable is likely OK, but I have severe reservations about the pickup arm.

A well designed pickup arm is one of the most important features of a record playing deck.

You might be lucky, in these difficult economic times, and get this unit (http://cgi.ebay.com/THORENS-TD-125-TURNTABLE-W-SHURE-SME-309-TONE-ARM_W0QQitemZ120327074337QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 20327074337&_trkparms=72%3A1420|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A13 18&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) for a song. A unit like this is an excellent turntable and significantly superior to Far Eastern models in many respects.

[TLS Guy]

Do the 1200's have built in pre-amps?

No, but you can get a serviceable phono preamp very reasonably. That should be a minor criteria for selecting a turntable.

Fine engineering, and build quality should be paramount. The unit (http://cgi.ebay.com/THORENS-TD-125-TURNTABLE-W-SHURE-SME-309-TONE-ARM_W0QQitemZ120327074337QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 20327074337&_trkparms=72%3A1420|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A13 18&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)I steered you to has an arm by SME. Since the founding of the company SME arms have consistently been the finest available.

SME (http://www.sme.ltd.uk/)are still very much in business.

[Cygnus]

No, but you can get a serviceable phono preamp very reasonably. That should be a minor criteria for selecting a turntable.

Fine engineering, and build quality should be paramount. The unit (http://cgi.ebay.com/THORENS-TD-125-TURNTABLE-W-SHURE-SME-309-TONE-ARM_W0QQitemZ120327074337QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 20327074337&_trkparms=72%3A1420|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A13 18&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)I steered you to has an arm by SME. Since the founding of the company SME arms have consistently been the finest available.

SME (http://www.sme.ltd.uk/)are still very much in business.


That looks like a pretty slick unit there. What about dust as I mentioned earlier? Is that a problem? I also have a budget to put into consideration. Probably capped at $350CDN. Oh, that's another thing. I need to be able to find it/have it shipped to Canada.

[Seth=L]

Belt Drive is preferred amongst the unknowing audiophile community. A properly employed Direct Drive is far superior to a belt drive table. This is not a matter of question, it simply is fact.

A short and simple explanation of why is in this link.

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/thomas_chapman/DIRECT%20VS%20BELT.htm

Fortunately the SL-1200 was designed with the weaknesses of Direct Drive in mind, effectively eliminating those pesky "vibrations".

[Cygnus]

Belt Drive is preferred amongst the unknowing audiophile community. A properly employed Direct Drive is far superior to a belt drive table. This is not a matter of question, it simply is fact.

A short and simple explanation of why is in this link.

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/thomas_chapman/DIRECT%20VS%20BELT.htm

Fortunately the SL-1200 was designed with the weaknesses of Direct Drive in mind, effectively eliminating those pesky "vibrations".

That's what I thought.

[TLS Guy]

That looks like a pretty slick unit there. What about dust as I mentioned earlier? Is that a problem? I also have a budget to put into consideration. Probably capped at $350CDN. Oh, that's another thing. I need to be able to find it/have it shipped to Canada.

That unit looks as it it has a Stanton cartridge fitted, but it does not say that is included in the sale. Styli are cleaned with pure Isopropyl alcohol. However stylus wear is an even bigger consideration, and used cartridges should have their styli inspected under an operating microscope, or be replaced with a good quality used cartridge.

[Seth=L]

That looks like a pretty slick unit there. What about dust as I mentioned earlier? Is that a problem? I also have a budget to put into consideration. Probably capped at $350CDN. Oh, that's another thing. I need to be able to find it/have it shipped to Canada.
Dust is an issue, of course. Vinyl will always have this problem. The best you can do is to properly clean your LPs with an LP cleaning solution and making sure your needle is also kept clean.

Here are some general steps you can follow.

http://www.ehow.com/how_11496_clean-turntable-stylus.html

If you purchase a quality cartridge it may come with cleaning instructions for the stylus that are specific to that unit. Be sure you follow those instructions if they are provided.

Playing LPs can be a chore.:D

[Cygnus]

That unit looks as it it has a Stanton cartridge fitted, but it does not say that is included in the sale. Styli are cleaned with pure Isopropyl alcohol. However stylus wear is an even bigger consideration, and used cartridges should have their styli inspected under an operating microscope, or be replaced with a good quality used cartridge.

Yeah thats true, I guess I can always just replace the cartridge. Maaan this is bugging me! I didn't think there would be so many things to consider!

[TLS Guy]

Belt Drive is preferred amongst the unknowing audiophile community. A properly employed Direct Drive is far superior to a belt drive table. This is not a matter of question, it simply is fact.

A short and simple explanation of why is in this link.

http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211_fall2002.web.dir/thomas_chapman/DIRECT%20VS%20BELT.htm

Fortunately the SL-1200 was designed with the weaknesses of Direct Drive in mind, effectively eliminating those pesky "vibrations".

I do not think it is a fact that direct drive is better, except in the matter of staring speed. Some of the best turntables have been belt drive. The technics line are certainly NOT the apogee of turntables, and I would personally never select one.

I bought my Thorens TD 150 in 1966, and did the first belt replacement about three years ago.

[Cygnus]

Would I just be fine with a AT-PL120? I mean, it'd be brand new, direct drive (wether that makes a difference is debatable, but I'd rather not debate it.) The ONLY thing that steers me away is that the arm doesn't automatically put itself back after a side is finished playing. Will this scratch the !@#$% out of my records? Edit: I don't really need a super-duper-more-bells-and-whistles-than-a-747 record player. I just want to listen to them, you know?

[Seth=L]

Yeah thats true, I guess I can always just replace the cartridge. Maaan this is bugging me! I didn't think there would be so many things to consider!
There's not a whole lot to consider if you really think about it. If you get the SL-1200 with a Denon DL-110 cartridge (a very linear cartridge for under $200). You could have a very capable system up and running for less than $500.

Make sure if you do get a SL-1200 that it's gently used, preferably not used for DJing. Rigerous use of the SL-1200 for DJing make result in damage to the tone arm. The tone arm must be firm and have no leeway in it. It must move without "knocking". If the tone arm is damaged it may not move linearly.

[Seth=L]

Would I just be fine with a AT-PL120? I mean, it'd be brand new, direct drive (wether that makes a difference is debatable, but I'd rather not debate it.) The ONLY thing that steers me away is that the arm doesn't automatically put itself back after a side is finished playing. Will this scratch the !@#$% out of my records?
I wouldn't use an automatic table, period. Not all direct drive tables are good.

[Cygnus]

I wouldn't use an automatic table, period. Not all direct drive tables are good.

Why wouldn't you use a automatic? Wear on the arm, or what?

[TLS Guy]

Would I just be fine with a AT-PL120? I mean, it'd be brand new, direct drive (wether that makes a difference is debatable, but I'd rather not debate it.) The ONLY thing that steers me away is that the arm doesn't automatically put itself back after a side is finished playing. Will this scratch the !@#$% out of my records? Edit: I don't really need a super-duper-more-bells-and-whistles-than-a-747 record player. I just want to listen to them, you know?

You want to avoid turntables that automatically put the arm back, for reasons I stated previously.

You have to understand that in turntables the performance greatly increases as you go up the price ladder, unlike CD and DVD players.

[Seth=L]

I do not think it is a fact that direct drive is better, except in the matter of staring speed. Some of the best turntables have been belt drive. The technics line are certainly NOT the apogee of turntables, and I would personally never select one.

I bought my Thorens TD 150 in 1966, and did the first belt replacement about three years ago.
I never said it was the perfect record player. But it does what it set out to do. It is more than likely the best you can get for the money though. It's good and starting and playing. I really don't see what the debate is.

If you subjectively prefer belt driven tables, that's fine. I prefer accuracy over an intentionally slow record player. The Technics offers accuracy at an excellent price, new or used.

[Seth=L]

Why wouldn't you use a automatic? Wear on the arm, or what?
Wear on the stylus, and your LPs.

[Cygnus]

Wear on the stylus, and your LPs.
Makes sense. I will say that this thread has given me ALOT more to think about than I origionaly was! My grandma and grandpa have one of those "we'll try to look old fashioned without really pulling it off that well" all in one tiny things with a record player which plays them pretty well. The records will skip though if there's a dent, and vibrations can make that thing pretty wobbly and fussy..and it's been adjusted I think two times because of wobble, but other than all of those reasons, it's not bad (.....its cheap, yeah? hah.)

[Seth=L]

Technics SL-1200M3D (http://cgi.ebay.com/Technics-SL-1200-M3D_W0QQitemZ270294693578QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item2 70294693578&_trkparms=72%3A1234|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A13 18&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

Technics SL-1200M3D another listing (http://cgi.ebay.com/Technics-1200M3D-DJ-Turntable-SL-1200-1210-1200-M3D_W0QQitemZ320314604054QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item3 20314604054&_trkparms=72%3A1234|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12|240%3A13 18&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

If you have more questions about this TT or the cartridge I suggested I would PM Audioholic's user WmAx.

[TLS Guy]

I never said it was the perfect record player. But it does what it set out to do. It is more than likely the best you can get for the money though. It's good and starting and playing. I really don't see what the debate is.

If you subjectively prefer belt driven tables, that's fine. I prefer accuracy of an intentionally slow record player. The Technics offers accuracy at an excellent price, new or used.

I don't particularly prefer belt drive, but there is absolutely nothing wrong with it as an engineering concept.

I have two belt drive turntables, and two Garrard 301s which are about 50 years old, superbly engineered and use idler wheel and eddy brake.

I do prefer to buy my arms separately from the turntables though. A superbly engineered pickup arm I find essential, and turntable manufacturers do not generally make the best pickup arms. I have long favored SME arms.

I have a series two arm and two series three arms. One turntable uses a Decca ffss arm and cartridge. That rig is a 301, with Decca ffss arm and ffss LP and 78 heads. It is complete with Decca lift and brush. I would think that lot alone would create a feeding frenzy on eBay.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/photos/127077056_gUrCf-M.jpg

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/photos/127081086_HJmkb-M.jpg

[zumbo]

I am not into turntables, but I saw this unit the other day. Fine looking piece of equipment.

http://us.marantz.com/Products/1197.asp

[Cygnus]

I am not into turntables, but I saw this unit the other day. Fine looking piece of equipment.

http://us.marantz.com/Products/1197.asp


Yeah thats really nice and all, but I could buy a used car for that price :rolleyes: :p

[Seth=L]

Belt driven tables require more maintanence than direct drive tables. I'm not suggesting just any Direct Drive, just as you aren't suggesting just any belt drive table. For example, I would shoot myself sooner than recommend a rega table to anyone, because they suck.

Bang for buck, and for simple clean operation (and long lasting durability) I would choose the SL-1200. They can take a beating and still come back working flawlessly. There are certainly a few more tortured SL-1200s that don't make it, but you really have to beat the crap out of them in order to make them worthless for audio playback.

The tone arm that comes on the Technics is a very good stock arm, believe it or not. Obviously it's replaceable in the event you get the upgrade bug, but it's a very good starting point. Some of the home used SL-1200s come with decent carts in them (better than scratch) and would be nearly ready to go once you got them.

[Cygnus]

Technics SL1200 MK30 (http://cgi.ebay.com/TECHNICS-SL-1200-MK-3D-DJ-TURNTABLE-MKIII-PANASONIC-DJ_W0QQitemZ110304574273QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item11 0304574273&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

Preamp (http://cgi.ebay.com/RIAA-Phono-Preamp-Record-Player-Turntable-Amplifier-Amp_W0QQitemZ400005648373QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item4 00005648373&_trkparms=72%3A1234%7C39%3A1%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

Good lord, shipping on that turntable's gonna be expensive!

[TLS Guy]

Belt driven tables require more maintanence than direct drive tables. I'm not suggesting just any Direct Drive, just as you aren't suggesting just any belt drive table. For example, I would shoot myself sooner than recommend a rega table to anyone, because they suck.

Bang for buck, and for simple clean operation (and long lasting durability) I would choose the SL-1200. They can take a beating and still come back working flawlessly. There are certainly a few more tortured SL-1200s that don't make it, but you really have to beat the crap out of them in order to make them worthless for audio playback.

The tone arm that comes on the Technics is a very good stock arm, believe it or not. Obviously it's replaceable in the event you get the upgrade bug, but it's a very good starting point. Some of the home used SL-1200s come with decent carts in them (better than scratch) and would be nearly ready to go once you got them.

I know those turntables have always had a reputation for being work horses.

It seems strange how the top line older turntables have held value. This is a pretty typical recent sale (http://cgi.ebay.com/Garrard-301-Transcription-Turntable_W0QQitemZ330280456655QQcmdZViewItem?hash =item330280456655&_trkparms=39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A13|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14).

I suppose it is owning the legend (http://www.garrard501.com/)as they say.

[Seth=L]

I know those turntables have always had a reputation for being work horses.

It seems strange how the top line older turntables have held value. This is a pretty typical recent sale (http://cgi.ebay.com/Garrard-301-Transcription-Turntable_W0QQitemZ330280456655QQcmdZViewItem?hash =item330280456655&_trkparms=39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A13|240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14).

I suppose it is owning the legend (http://www.garrard501.com/)as they say.
Very nostalgic

[Cygnus]

Very nostalgic

For sure! I was thinking, a new Techics 1200 for edit: $648...bloody scary exchange rate! I might go for that and a phono preamp.

[WmAx]

In all fairness, there are great DD and great belt drives. But the Technics example given is going to be substantially superior to most belt drives around the same price range. You have to scale the price ladder a bit before you start to find belt drives with the general range of speed accuracy. Even then, the Technics mentioned here is better than most belt drives even in the $1k range. Remember, most of these lower end 'audiophile' decks are nothing more than a 3/4" or 1" piece of chipboard painted and mated with a low quality motor with substantial speed drift/error. Compared to the Technics SL1200, which is a heavy cast aluminum chassis with heavy dampeniong components to prevent resonance, and it has a top notch motor with quartz locked speed controls - providing for incredible speed stability. The Technics weak point is the resonant arm it uses. But you can swap out that arm for a better one, and have a 1st rate turntable pretty easily. However, very high quality arms with low resonance/coloration and full selection of adjustments and top quality bearings, are usually quite expensive.....

Personally, I use a belt drive, but it's a rather incredible quality one. In fact, it is that high end Marantz that was linked in this thread by Zumbo earlier. It has a superb quality motor with dead on speed accuracy, an incredibly low resonance chassis and platter, top notch main bearing system, and the tone arm is an extremely high grade one, with very low resonance, jeweled bearings with tungsten set points, and every part of this table and arm are machined to the finest level of quality by Clearaudio(it's not really a Marantz - it's a high end table made by Clearaudio in Germany and distributed by Marantz with a Marantz badge on it. Despite what Marantz's page might say - they did not design the first mechanical thing on this unit - they may have specced the shape of the table top and that's about it - every part on there is a known Clearaudio component from the tone arm to the motor to bearing set on the platter). I don't usually go for this type of gear anymore(I used to use high end amps, pre-amps, etc.), but a vinyl system is completey mechanical, and I searched down the best value/quality mechanical system I could find the for dollar, and that Marantz was it, I believe, in the range I searched. Many may consider that too much for a tt, many might consider it too cheap, but it fit my needs perfectly and it has no readily discernible coloration(s) that I can easily detect.

-Chris

[AudioArcher]

I may be a bit biased, but I ain't heard a direct drive yet that sounds better than my Rega.

[Cygnus]

I ended up buying a Technics SL1200MK2PK and a Shure M92E cartridge and a preamp from the source. Not bad for a starter setup I'd say (at least the turntable anyways ;) ).