Blu-ray a joke?

[tmurnin]

So I plunked down $300 for the Panasonic DMP-BD35K and another $75 for the Godfather trilogy, brought it home, hooked it all up and saw a beautiful rendition of two truly excellent films. I was more than excited about my purchase so trucked down to my neighborhood Blockbuser, picked up a copy of "The Incredible Hulk" and "Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull" (admittedly not great films but wanted to hear the action sound really come through) and now I am sitting on the floor as my player spits out the disks over and over again with the message "This disc cannot be played" and "Copyright Violation" or "Disc format not recognized."

Yes, I have the latest firmware updates. From searching around on the 'net, this is not an uncommon occurance. I'm sorry, but this format has enough doubters out there right now to not have to deal with crap like this. If Blu-Ray is a standard, then there is absolutely no reason why it shoot be a crap shoot as to whether individual disks will play on a given player.

What is the reason behind this? When will it stop and we have some predictability as to what disks will play? The format looks awesome, but my DVDs never looked bad and they ALWAYS played in the player. Hi-Def video through AppleTV doesn't look as good as Blu-Ray, but it looks pretty damn good and it also ALWAYS plays.

Is there a solution for this problem or is it just yet another "firmware" update (i.e. excuse)? Why do people put up with it?

[jamie2112]

I am sorry to hear you are having issues. I myself do not have a Blu Ray but I do have an Apple TV and it works very well. I have heard this before but as I do not own a BR player yet I am not one to give advice on your issue. I will say that you are absolutely correct that its unacceptable to rent a disc and have it not play. It looks really bad for a format that is supposed to be the next big thing. I hope you can resolve your issues in a timely manner...I am sure others will comment on this as there are many on this site that know alot of the format.

[mike c]

i have yet to encounter "disc cannot be played" with my PS3.

so i would guess that your problems are caused by the player itself. sorry to hear about your troubles.

[FirstReflection]

It does seem as though the only "safe" Blu-ray player is the PlayStation3. I have one myself and every disc has played without problem. Also, the loading time for BD-Java discs is fast and menu navigation and BD-Live features is quick and painless.

The same cannot be said for...well...basically any stand-alone player. All of the Samsung players have had many reported playback problems. Panasonic hasn't had as many reports of problems - at least from what I've been able to read around the 'net. But there certainly are some reports and obviously the OP here has some first hand!

Even Sony's own stand-alone players have had occassional issues reported.

I do not know the exact cause for sure, but it simply seems as though the "moving target" method of developing the format has led to all sorts of compatibility issues with the various players. Stick a certain decoder chip with a certain scaling chip and bam...certain discs won't play.

Out of it all, the software-based players - that would be the PS3 and most computers - they have been the most reliable when it comes to compatibility.

The OP is certainly right - no one should have to put up with the nonsense of compatibility issues between hardware and discs. I can say that the PS3 has been a solid performer, but that sort of caveat is ridiculous and I don't consider that a "reasonable" solution. It is a form of a solution, so if you really love Blu-ray (I certainly do) and you're willing to pay the extra for the PS3, it isn't a horrible deal because the PS3 does provide a lot of value and features for the money, IMO. But you certainly shouldn't have to buy a PS3 just to get what ought to be basic performance.

Right now, Blu-ray is, without question, the highest quality we can bring into our homes. Broadcast HDTV looks great over the air, but cable and satellite feeds show compression artifacts and in all HDTV transmission, there is no HD lossless audio - only 5.1 lossy Dolby Digital at best. On Demand via cable or satellite is the same situation. AppleTV looks pretty decent, but not equal, and again, no HD lossless Audio. Vudu's HDX is darned impressive looking - certainly the closest in visual quality IMO - but still no lossless audio and the library of HDX titles is still very small.

I'm all about the quality - pristine HD video AND lossless HD audio - so I'm willing to grudgingly accept the "growing pains" of the Blu-ray format. But I am reasonably sure at this point that Blu-ray will not ever truly succeed in the sense that it will never be something that the mass market really adopts.

I look at it this way: I'm happy to buy movies that I really enjoy having in my collection. I honestly believe that Blu-ray is the highest quality medium we will ever have available to us for the next couple of decades. I'm quite convinced though that it will never become the defacto standard and will, in fact, rather quickly die away in the scheme of things. The problem for me is that what will become the defacto standard will not be of equal quality to Blu-ray, so I am making a point of purchasing Blu-ray movies while they are still available.

Eventually, one day, internet and On Demand distribution will reach and then surpass Blu-ray quality. But I honestly do not think that day will come for a good 15-20 years. In the mean time, I believe the choice will either be to pay a premium for what amounts to a niche market product in Blu-ray or settle for the lower quality offered by internet or On Demand distribution as it exists and will exist for the next couple of decades.

[Davemcc]

I'm glad I read this post. I have been considering buying a BD player and the Panny BD35 is near the top of my list. I've been using my PS3 so far and haven't had any compatibility issues, but I find the fan pretty noisy on the PS3. That's the primary reason I'm looking for a standalone player.

Now after hearing what First Reflection has to say, I'm not sure if buying any player is worth the trouble. I certainly don't want to pay good money for a device with compatibility issues right out of the box, yet it seems virtually all machines suffer.

[CaliHwyPatrol]

My Samsung has recently started doing this after never doing it once for a year. It will do it even with discs that haven't had trouble in the past, so I think it is something to do with the player, I just don't know what.

I haven't bothered to look into it because in a few months I'll be gone for 6 years anyway, so it will be outdated by the time I'm ready to use it again.

[Alex2507]

in a few months I'll be gone for 6 years

That sounds like jail. Maybe you can do some probation here on AH.
Whatever it is, best of luck.

Alex

[allargon]

Since he said 6 years, I'm guessing one of our military branches. AFAIK prison terms (never been...) are 1, 2, 3-5, 10 years.

[Halon451]

Thanks to the OP for posting his thoughts, very sorry to hear of your troubles. Looking at getting a BD player soon myself, so these are very appreciated comments by all. :)

[TLS Guy]

I'm glad I read this post. I have been considering buying a BD player and the Panny BD35 is near the top of my list. I've been using my PS3 so far and haven't had any compatibility issues, but I find the fan pretty noisy on the PS3. That's the primary reason I'm looking for a standalone player.

Now after hearing what First Reflection has to say, I'm not sure if buying any player is worth the trouble. I certainly don't want to pay good money for a device with compatibility issues right out of the box, yet it seems virtually all machines suffer.

I have stated many times before, that this is ludicrous. This means a good format is going to be killed by DRM.

The solution: - Ban DRM, best. Next best forbid further changes in a copy protection code after the release of a format. What has caused the grief in BD, is the endless changing of codes in a futile effort to try and beat criminals.

The whole reason for our economic mess is greed. The greed of the studios, is limiting their profit. If they would just realize, that if the gave up on this DRM nonsense, and sell product at a price where the was no margin for the criminals, they would sell vast amounts of product and make more money. The consumer would be happy. BD would catch on, and DVD could be phased out and we could have one video and audio standard.

However Hollywood, like most business these days, is controlled by very stupid people indeed. The bankers of the world are so stupid that we are quite likely to find out that they have check mated the whole world into financial ruin.

BD is being killed by stupidity and greed, which have obviously been going hand in hand for a long time.

[billy p]

Bug free or not I'm close to jumping in.:o

[Exit]

I would check to see if your original Blu-ray disks still work in the BD player. If they don't anymore, you should return the player.

If original BDs still work, then maybe the player can't read rentals so well because they usually accumuluate small scratches from high usage. Regular DVD players are pretty tolerant of small scratches but maybe your BD player is not tolerant. Maybe you just happened to get two bum rentals? The real test may be to buy a new copy of one of the bad BDs and see if that works. Then you would know if it was a general problem, or certain disk makers' disk read problem versus bad rental BDs. We haven't tried rentals on our PS3, but it has had no issues playing new DBs. Just a couple of ideas to try.

[bandphan]

slow load times:confused: unplayable discs:confused: poor intergration options:confused: firmware issues:confused:

ive been sticking to sddvd for the most part and i dont think im missing much:D

[FirstReflection]

heh - yeah...when ever someone asks, I always say to just go ahead and buy a PS3 if you want a Blu-ray player. It really is the only "safe" choice and it's also the best player in terms of the user experience, so I just consider it to be the "go to" Blu-ray player that I recommend. When you consider that the price isn't all that much higher (and in several cases, is actually considerably lower!) and you also consider that it can act as a media server of sorts and also quite a nice HD gaming system - it does present itself as a very good value for a Blu-ray player.

The DRM could definitely be the culprit in many cases. Again, the PS3 is by far the most widely tested player that studios use to make sure that their discs are working. And if a DRM code change does ever take place, the PS3 is very quick to get firmware updates and updates also come on a regular and frequent basis. It's a shame that no stand alone player can really claim to equal that kind of compatibility and support. But in a weird way, at least it makes the choice easy :p

Should you jump onboard the Blu-ray format?

That all depends on what sort of audio and video quality you consider acceptable. I love love love lossless audio and I hate hate hate seeing any compression artifacts, so for me personally, it's an easy decision to go Blu-ray and wait until downloads and On Demand are able to match that level of quality.

Like I said before, I don't expect downloads or On Demand to actually reach that level of quality for a rather long time to come yet. Cable providers are more interested in cramming more channels through their pipe than keeping the quality of those channels high. And in the case of internet downloads, the pipe is just to small. We'd require a massive increase in bandwidth to really make Blu-ray quality viable and while I'm sure bandwidth will eventually increase dramatically, I honestly do think it will take quite a while before that happens. In North America, our entire internet infrastructure is still based upon copper phone lines for a great portion and that just isn't going to cut it! But it takes a long time to replace our entire telecommunications infrustructure. It's happening - it's in the works. But it's going to take quite a while.

But let's say it's only 5-10 years. Let's say that within 5-10 years, we manage a massive increase in bandwidth and internet speeds. I'd say that's optimistic, but even so, that's still 5 years from now until then. Certainly, if you're a movie lover, having and enjoying Blu-ray for the next 5 years makes it a worth while investment. Sure, it'll never come close to having the library of DVD and most of the mass market will never buy a Blu-ray player. But if audio/video quality is your top concern, I'd say that 5 years of enjoyment is still worth it :)

[Gov]

I just pulled the trigger on a Panny BD30 refurb off e-bay. With the MS 25% cash back, I'm getting it for a song and dance basically. This will be used strictly for BD only. I am looking forward to seeing what all of this is about. I do have my doubts as to how much better it can be than watching SD DVD thru my Denon 2200 on my outdated beloved Sony CRT RPTV. But now that I have an updated receiver that decodes the latest codecs, I could not resist jumping on the BD train and going for the ride. I figure that I have not invested much money on it, so what the hell. I think the first disc I buy will be "Iron Man" :D

[CaliHwyPatrol]

Since he said 6 years, I'm guessing one of our military branches. AFAIK prison terms (never been...) are 1, 2, 3-5, 10 years.

Cookie for you.

http://pixiestixkidspix.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/cookie-bite-web.jpg

The weird thing about my player is that it will eventually play any disc I put in there. Sometimes it works the first time, sometimes I have to eject it and put it in up to 25 times for it to start playing. Sometimes putting the disc in then shutting the player off and starting it with the disc in makes it play right away. Since my player is over a year old now, there isn't much I can do about it.

[TLS Guy]

Cookie for you.

http://pixiestixkidspix.files.wordpress.com/2007/08/cookie-bite-web.jpg

The weird thing about my player is that it will eventually play any disc I put in there. Sometimes it works the first time, sometimes I have to eject it and put it in up to 25 times for it to start playing. Sometimes putting the disc in then shutting the player off and starting it with the disc in makes it play right away. Since my player is over a year old now, there isn't much I can do about it.

There is. You could clean the laser lens and that will very likely solve your problem.

[mtrycrafts]

Just think what the average consumer is doing:eek: At least we have some idea what to check, download firmware, etc. the average consumer? Pulling their hair out:eek:

[jostenmeat]

I've never seen the new Incredible Hulk, nor the Crystal Skull.

I have yet to put in a disc that did not play in my BD-30. In fact, I was using the very original 1.1 FW in the player for several months. I did not even bother or care to update, because everything worked so smoothly, except that I wanted to fix the -5db cut in the LFE. This was the only reason I updated.

I read about all of this FW hoopla, and so I figured maybe I should update once more. I just did a week or two ago to 2.5. Only for the hell of it.

I never updated 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.8, 2.2, 2.3, or 2.4. I had no need. Everything plays perfectly. I love my player.



Gov

please note that many TrueHD tracks are triggering auto DRC. PCM doesn't do that, and I haven't noticed any MA tracks that have either.

Iron Man is one of those T-HD tracks, and it sounds downright awful until you disengage DRC wherever the audio is being decoded. For example, in my Onkyo 805, DRC is actually "late night", and it will "auto" until I turn it off.

I just watched a different T-HD movie recently, can't remember which, but at least I knew to look for the DRC, and turn it off.

[Gov]

Gov

please note that many TrueHD tracks are triggering auto DRC. PCM doesn't do that, and I haven't noticed any MA tracks that have either.

Iron Man is one of those T-HD tracks, and it sounds downright awful until you disengage DRC wherever the audio is being decoded. For example, in my Onkyo 805, DRC is actually "late night", and it will "auto" until I turn it off.

I just watched a different T-HD movie recently, can't remember which, but at least I knew to look for the DRC, and turn it off.


Thanks for the heads up on this. You are talking about the DRC in the A/V Receiver? In my Pioneer it defaults to "off"

[jostenmeat]

Thanks for the heads up on this.

Sure thing. That's why we all spend too much time here, right? :p give and take.

You are talking about the DRC in the A/V Receiver?

If that's where you choose to decode, yes. (PS3 user would have it triggered in the player, for instance).

In my Pioneer it defaults to "off"

Please report if DRC is not auto-triggered in your unit. I'd be very surprised. And it would actually score a serious point for me in favor of Pioneer. ;)

[Gov]

Please report if DRC is not auto-triggered in your unit. I'd be very surprised. And it would actually score a serious point for me in favor of Pioneer. ;)

I will be sure too

[Davemcc]

Please explain in simple terms about this DRC auto function. I went out and got the BD35 and I'm still trying to learn the ins and outs. It's my first foray into a stand-alone BD player after using the PS3 for a while.

[jostenmeat]

Hello Dave.

The DRC thing is very simple. Some audio tracks, specifically of the TrueHD kind, have a "flag" that is automatically turning on your DRC. Iron Man, for instance, is doing it to your PS3 as well, whether you knew that or not.

Its totally lame. I know, I know. If you select TrueHD (but bitstreamed), you'll simply have to hit "Late Night" on the Integra, you will see "Auto", and keep clicking the late night button until it says off. So, it appears the DRC flag basically happens wherever your decoding is taking place. With a PS3, its obviously in the player (can't bitstream), for instance.

Regarding your other post in the other thread, I'm about to fire up the HT, and will look at my own BD-30 settings. Its pretty strange you can't get audio yet.

j

[Davemcc]

I got audio by setting the player to PCM. I'm going to try your other suggestions now.

[Emusica]

Sorry, I've been trying to figure it out but can't. I will accept any flaming that I may/will receive from this question.

What is DRC?

I have the panny BD55 with a Sony STR DA-7ES receiver (no hdmi). I have the multi-channel analogs hooked up and the BD55 set to PCM, no secondary audio, 7.1 out, etc., so I can enjoy the new formats. I watched Iron Man in DoblyTHD, is this auto DRC affecting my listening pleasure?:mad:

[Adam]

DRC = Dynamic Range Control.

It allows you to have a smaller change in volume between quiet sounds (like whispering) and loud sounds (like tanks exploding). It compresses the total range of the volume down.

It's good for things like listening to movies at night with people sleeping close by. That way, you can hear the dialogue in the movie just fine, but explosions won't wake everyone else up.

[wiyosaya]

So I plunked down $300 for the Panasonic DMP-BD35K and another $75 for the Godfather trilogy, brought it home, hooked it all up and saw a beautiful rendition of two truly excellent films. I was more than excited about my purchase so trucked down to my neighborhood Blockbuser, picked up a copy of "The Incredible Hulk" and "Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull" (admittedly not great films but wanted to hear the action sound really come through) and now I am sitting on the floor as my player spits out the disks over and over again with the message "This disc cannot be played" and "Copyright Violation" or "Disc format not recognized."

Yes, I have the latest firmware updates. From searching around on the 'net, this is not an uncommon occurance. I'm sorry, but this format has enough doubters out there right now to not have to deal with crap like this. If Blu-Ray is a standard, then there is absolutely no reason why it shoot be a crap shoot as to whether individual disks will play on a given player.

What is the reason behind this? When will it stop and we have some predictability as to what disks will play? The format looks awesome, but my DVDs never looked bad and they ALWAYS played in the player. Hi-Def video through AppleTV doesn't look as good as Blu-Ray, but it looks pretty damn good and it also ALWAYS plays.

Is there a solution for this problem or is it just yet another "firmware" update (i.e. excuse)? Why do people put up with it?
One thing this might be is a dirty disc. I have rented DVDs from Blockbuster that after the "soap and water treatment" ;) have played well. Then again, I do not own a Blu-ray player and have not rented Blu-ray discs, so I do not know if this is a problem with Blu-ray that could be solved by similar means.

Personally, I am glad I am waiting to get into the format.

However, (since no one has mentioned this in the thread) DVD had similar issues in its infancy. The Matrix used to be a "test disc". If your DVD player played it, chances are your DVD player would play most any DVD.

Unfortunately, I think this is another "ding" that the format cannot afford right now. I am not going to defend the format as I think that this is emblematic of rushing an immature technology to market.

My list of format "dings" that I believe are seriously hampering Blu-ray adoption:


Movies that do not play on every player
Draconian Blu-ray licensing fees
No stand-alone recorder in the US market
Draconian US market movie licensing (though this is not Blu-ray specific)

Unless Sony and the movie industry take steps to resolve these issues soon, I think these issues might just kill the format.

[darien87]

Hello Dave.

The DRC thing is very simple. Some audio tracks, specifically of the TrueHD kind, have a "flag" that is automatically turning on your DRC. Iron Man, for instance, is doing it to your PS3 as well, whether you knew that or not.

j

So how do you turn off DRC in the PS 3?

[j_garcia]

Audio settings menu. I turned this off and noticed a difference on a few movies, specifically ones I was cranking for the fun factor - like Iron Man.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Is it the featured film BD or the Digital Copy?:D

I've been guilty of putting in the digital copy, instead of the actual featured film. Of course, it didn't work.:D

[CaliHwyPatrol]

I haven't done that yet. Interestingly enough, the digital copy says "Digital Copy" on it.

[darien87]

You know, now that you mention it, I do remember not being impressed with the sound of Iron Man. I think I had to crank the hell out of it for it to sound loud. I guess that explains it.

I HATE little hidden crap like this! :mad:

[jostenmeat]

You know, now that you mention it, I do remember not being impressed with the sound of Iron Man. I think I had to crank the hell out of it for it to sound loud. I guess that explains it.

I HATE little hidden crap like this! :mad:

Yep. Iron Man is definitely the worst in compression that I have ever heard on a movie track. You're going to love the improvement after you disable DRC.

This in of itself makes me somewhat prefer MA. But, allargon would tell you its not Dolby's fault; blame the studios.

[darien87]

Yep. Iron Man is definitely the worst in compression that I have ever heard on a movie track. You're going to love the improvement after you disable DRC.

This in of itself makes me somewhat prefer MA. But, allargon would tell you its not Dolby's fault; blame the studios.
Thanks for the heads-up. I never would have known.

[darien87]

So I turned DRC to "off" on my PS 3 last night.

Is it just the Iron Man disc that has this quirk, or do all Dolby TrueHD discs do this?

[jostenmeat]

Ever since discovering this, every time I've checked, TrueHD auto-flags DRC. However, it was only really ever with Iron Man that the difference was nearly as dramatic. I threw in Adventures of Baron Munchausen last night, and even that one auto-flagged.

[rnatalli]

I'm hoping Oppo releases their player in the near future :)

[jostenmeat]

I'm hoping Oppo releases their player in the near future :)

Oppo's reputation precedes itself, as can be seen by the numerous posts such as yours.

However, I seriously doubt their FW support could be nearly as good as Panasonic's, let alone Sony's. Unless they are going to hire a new team or something.

I'm speaking from the perspective of "less headaches" as an "early adopter". As for PQ for the money, well Panasonic's older models can already pass all of the HQV tests, so I'm not sure how much better you are expecting, especially considering the possible cost of such an Oppo player.

Now, if you want a standalone BDP + SACD, and all that jive, then sure. ;)

Meh.

[darien87]

Ever since discovering this, every time I've checked, TrueHD auto-flags DRC. However, it was only really ever with Iron Man that the difference was nearly as dramatic. I threw in Adventures of Baron Munchausen last night, and even that one auto-flagged.

How were you able to tell that it auto-flagged?

[jostenmeat]

darien87, I just click on the function called "late night" on my Onkyo 805. (That's what they call their version of DRC). I simply programmed it into my macros on my URC remote. After I select TrueHD, and the movie starts running, I hit what I called "DRC" and it shows "auto". I keep clicking until is says off.

This doesn't help you, since flagging will occur in player. You are simply going to have to go into the audio menu of the PS3 each time. Yeah, its annoying. However, this won't happen with uncompressed PCM, and I have to discover it happening with DTS-MA. Also, I never noticed anything terrible until the first viewing of Iron Man.

[j_garcia]

There are three settings for DRC on the PS3 - On, Auto and Off. Set it to off and it should stay off always. I never really noticed its effects until Iron Man.

[jostenmeat]

There are three settings for DRC on the PS3 - On, Auto and Off. Set it to off and it should stay off always. I never really noticed its effects until Iron Man.

If true, that's great news. :) *wish I could do that to my Onkyo*.

[mtrycrafts]

There are three settings for DRC on the PS3 - On, Auto and Off. Set it to off and it should stay off always. I never really noticed its effects until Iron Man.

You mean that before you turned DRC off, you discovered it with Iron Man that turned down the LFE by that flag?
And now that it is OFF, you don't have that happening?

[j_garcia]

You mean that before you turned DRC off, you discovered it with Iron Man that turned down the LFE by that flag?
And now that it is OFF, you don't have that happening?

Yes. I may have noticed it here and there with other movies, but with Iron Man I really cranked the system and it seemed quite noticeable that there was some limiting going on. When I turned it off and cranked the same scene (the Jericho missle test) there was a noticeable improvement in the bass department.

[Gov]

Just got down watching The Hulk on my BD30 and with the DTS-HD Mstr engaged. I still have a silly grin on my face :D I will say that watching at -12db on my SC-05, I could feel that my heart rate was going up at times. My poor 8 yr old son, had to leave the room. He told me that his heart was racing. I am terrible!

[darien87]

So I guess I need to go back an rewatch all my BD's with TrueHD tracks.

I watched Iron Man, (Jericho missle scene), and there was a HUGE difference in bass response. I went back and forth about 5 times and it was immediately noticeable. Even my wife noticed the difference in the voices. With DRC on, when Stark is intro'ing the missle system, she said, "It sounds muffled."

So for the hell of it, I put in I am Legend. When I first bought this disk, I didn't like how the Shelby Mustang in the beginning didn't sound very impressive. I had to crank my system to make it sound loud, but then the deer hoofbeats got so loud that they overpowered the sound of the car. After turning off DRC, the scene sounds much more balanced. The car still isn't as loud as I would like it, but now the deer hoofbeats aren't so much louder.

DRC sucks!!! Why the hell would they put some kind of automatic "on" feature on to a disc!?!?! :mad:

[boxinghris]

So I guess I need to go back an rewatch all my BD's with TrueHD tracks.

I watched Iron Man, (Jericho missle scene), and there was a HUGE difference in bass response. I went back and forth about 5 times and it was immediately noticeable. Even my wife noticed the difference in the voices. With DRC on, when Stark is intro'ing the missle system, she said, "It sounds muffled."

So for the hell of it, I put in I am Legend. When I first bought this disk, I didn't like how the Shelby Mustang in the beginning didn't sound very impressive. I had to crank my system to make it sound loud, but then the deer hoofbeats got so loud that they overpowered the sound of the car. After turning off DRC, the scene sounds much more balanced. The car still isn't as loud as I would like it, but now the deer hoofbeats aren't so much louder.

DRC sucks!!! Why the hell would they put some kind of automatic "on" feature on to a disc!?!?! :mad:

I think the various studios are so busy making trying to organise their customers and stop 'us' from copying discs and sticking to ludicrous 'regions' that they can't get themselves organised. :mad:

Blu-Ray should be new Messiah of video replay but unlike HD-DVD it was released half-cocked with players that should never have seen the light of day, and even now there doesn't appear to be a player which has all the functionality of the PS3 with similar load times.

Blu-Ray doesn't deserve to succeed as it has been an insult to the consumer from day one by greedy corporations, and if any other component or machine had been released which was half-finished, slow and glichy when another 'jack of all trades' equivalent put the specialists to shame the dedicated machines would be laughed out of the door.:rolleyes:

As it is, Blu-Ray has no competition and manufacturers are apparently able to bring out players slightly better than the preceding model but by no means the finished article yet, because if they actually spend time designing and manufacturing a player which plays discs when it's supposed to, loads them up faster than a gaming machine and selects the best audio codec available for the amplification used, they lose out to the manufacturer next door who has just released that next gen player which is a micro-step up from the last.

[allargon]

As much as I dislike many things about Blu-Ray (hardware incompatibilities, software pricing, hardware pricing, forced AACS licensing, replication capacity, etc.), I cannot blame the format for DRC. DRC also exists on pretty much every standard definition DVD player out there as well.

DRC is useful for watching movies at a constant volume if you have someone sleeping in the next room or live in an apartment.

The mismanagement of DRC on the Iron Man Blu-Ray was Paramount's screw-up and theirs alone--just like Warner's use of dialnorm is their screw-up. Plenty of studios (Disney, Universal, Sony, Weinstein, Opus Arte, etc.) use/used Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital+ and Dolby TrueHD without any issues. It's just those two studios that raise eyebrows.

[BMXTRIX]

I think the various studios are so busy making trying to organise their customers and stop 'us' from copying discs and sticking to ludicrous 'regions' that they can't get themselves organised. :mad:

Blu-Ray should be new Messiah of video replay but unlike HD-DVD it was released half-cocked with players that should never have seen the light of day, and even now there doesn't appear to be a player which has all the functionality of the PS3 with similar load times.

Blu-Ray doesn't deserve to succeed as it has been an insult to the consumer from day one by greedy corporations, and if any other component or machine had been released which was half-finished, slow and glichy when another 'jack of all trades' equivalent put the specialists to shame the dedicated machines would be laughed out of the door.:rolleyes:

As it is, Blu-Ray has no competition and manufacturers are apparently able to bring out players slightly better than the preceding model but by no means the finished article yet, because if they actually spend time designing and manufacturing a player which plays discs when it's supposed to, loads them up faster than a gaming machine and selects the best audio codec available for the amplification used, they lose out to the manufacturer next door who has just released that next gen player which is a micro-step up from the last.
Well, that's a pretty silly post.

Blu-ray has had issues, but it is far better to have open competition by many manufacturers and an aligned standard across the industry than to have a single company running the show. In the history of AV there has never been a single manufacturer with a single product which has followed their own standard with no significant outside support which has survived in the market.

Worse, rooting against a format which delivers both the best video and the best audio we have seen on the market - ever - is an insult to all of us who actually enjoy great audio and video at the highest quality.

Now, maybe you are upset because you bought a HD DVD player and realize what a waste of money that was. But, for almost every Blu-ray owner on the market, they are extremely happy with their purchase.

Openly criticizing the problems with a format doesn't mean the format shouldn't exist. It just means that manufacturers - whether they are studios, or CEs, need to recognize the flaws with their product and take corrective action. Likewise, the discussion allows people to find end-around solutions to get the most out of what they already own.

I wish you luck with whatever format you decide to buy into, but I will continue to enjoy my Blu-ray as I have done for the past two years and will live with the issues that do exist and hope that they continue to push the format forward and resolve those issues as they are discovered so that things continue to get better and better - exactly as we have seen since the formats inception.

[aberkowitz]

Thanks for the heads up on DRC... now I'm going to have to rewatch Iron Man. I was so disappointed by the audio the first time.

[boxinghris]

Well, that's a pretty silly post.

Blu-ray has had issues, but it is far better to have open competition by many manufacturers and an aligned standard across the industry than to have a single company running the show. In the history of AV there has never been a single manufacturer with a single product which has followed their own standard with no significant outside support which has survived in the market.

Worse, rooting against a format which delivers both the best video and the best audio we have seen on the market - ever - is an insult to all of us who actually enjoy great audio and video at the highest quality.

Now, maybe you are upset because you bought a HD DVD player and realize what a waste of money that was. But, for almost every Blu-ray owner on the market, they are extremely happy with their purchase.

Openly criticizing the problems with a format doesn't mean the format shouldn't exist. It just means that manufacturers - whether they are studios, or CEs, need to recognize the flaws with their product and take corrective action. Likewise, the discussion allows people to find end-around solutions to get the most out of what they already own.

I wish you luck with whatever format you decide to buy into, but I will continue to enjoy my Blu-ray as I have done for the past two years and will live with the issues that do exist and hope that they continue to push the format forward and resolve those issues as they are discovered so that things continue to get better and better - exactly as we have seen since the formats inception.

A silly post because you disagree and have bought into Blu-Ray?:rolleyes:

No, sorry to disappoint but I didn't buy into HD-DVD and so can give a detached view, unlike yourself who has nailed himself to the Blu-Ray flag, and in doing so you're now trying to distinguish yourself as being more discerning than anyone who hasn't yet bought a Blu-Ray player and who doesn't support the manufacturers of such machines.

I'm not rooting against the format, I'm simply saying that it was launched way too early because of HD-DVD, wasn't ready for market and has been playing catch up ever since with decent players only now starting to appear even though a games consol showed there was no excuse for the gliches and lack of functionality early adopters were expected to put up with.

For the record I will support any format which offers superior quality to the very best upscaling DVD players, but certainly NOT when such a format is not finalised, is not the full spec, the backwards compatibility with DVD is dire and the actual discs cost twice as much as DVDs.

In fact, show me a professional review of a Blu-Ray player where there weren't any compatibility or operational issues, at least before the current Panasonic BD55 and BD35 although I note that the latest review of the BD35 in homecinemachoice demonstrates that the BD-Live function didn't work.

Saying "Blu-Ray has had issues" is the biggest understatement since "Houston, we have a problem" in my humble opinion, and until these issues are fully resolved I certainly won't be investing in a player just yet.

I was interested in the Pioneer LX71 to match my KURO screen as I need the 7.1 analogue outputs, but now it transpires that there is no provision to set speaker delays which is frankly ridiculous - it wouldn't be accepted in a high-end DVD player but Pioneer must think early adopters are so keen to snap up the latest in Blu-Ray technology that they'll put up with it, and amazingly they do!:eek:

I really could take issue with almost everything you've written, but will just bring up the paragraph where you say "Openly criticizing the problems with a format doesn't mean the format shouldn't exist. It just means that manufacturers - whether they are studios, or CEs, need to recognize the flaws with their product and take corrective action."

I'd disagree with this statement because in all other manufacturing industries, corrective action is taken to deal with flaws BEFORE the product is marketed.
Saying "this is profile 1.0, then there will be profile 1.3, then profile 2.0" etc is a joke - they should call a spade a spade and say "the product isn't ready yet but for now here's one that's half finished, then there's one that's a bit more finished and finally here's one that's nearly finished....but it's a bit slow".:(

No doubt in the next few months I will own a Blu-Ray player and I am excited about higher-rez audio/video, but please give me a player which doesn't insult my intelligence and which does what Blu-Ray promised it would many moons ago; Denon or Marantz are looking favourites so far, shame about the lack of delay adjustment on the Pioneer.:rolleyes:

[jostenmeat]

I'd rather a 2k Pana + $300 BDP, than a 6k Kuro with 1k DVD player. Because the former will blow the latter's PQ out of the water.

Why Denon/Marantz?

I am using a BD-30 since last year, everything works perfectly.

I've only updated FW twice ever. One was simply for an LFE cut. The other was for the hell of it.

If you think FW updates are silly, well I suggest you don't buy any pre/pro's or receivers either. Definitely not anything high end.

[mtrycrafts]

Thanks for the heads up on DRC... now I'm going to have to rewatch Iron Man. I was so disappointed by the audio the first time.

I may have asked before, but does this mean that the BD disc of Iron Man will turn on the DRC in the player even if it is defaulted and set to off?

[jostenmeat]

I may have asked before, but does this mean that the BD disc of Iron Man will turn on the DRC in the player even if it is defaulted and set to off?

I'd bet money on it.

I admit that I never even knew of this issue until Iron Man. Obviously, DRC was implemented very poorly in this case.

My very first impression was that the mix was designed for a display in bright ambient light conditions, connected to an HTIB.

[Gov]

I may have asked before, but does this mean that the BD disc of Iron Man will turn on the DRC in the player even if it is defaulted and set to off?

On my Pioneer Elite SC-05 it does NOT turn on the DRC if my receiver is set to "off". Its default is "auto", but if you set it to "off" it stays off.:D
Its my understanding that it was not the Blu-ray players themselves, but the actual receivers that when fed a "bitstream" signal it happened if the receiver was set to "auto".

[jostenmeat]

On my Pioneer Elite SC-05 it does NOT turn on the DRC if my receiver is set to "off". Its default is "auto", but if you set it to "off" it stays off.:D

Ok, how much do I owe?

NOW you get back to me, eh Gov? :D

edit: btw, I really tried talking my brother into your Ascends. He gave me a rough 1.5k budget towards display + audio upgrades. Now' he's mulling over another fish tank...

[Gov]

Ok, how much do I owe?

NOW you get back to me, eh Gov? :D

edit: btw, I really tried talking my brother into your Ascends. He gave me a rough 1.5k budget towards display + audio upgrades. Now' he's mulling over another fish tank...


Sorry, been busy listening and reading all the great reviews on the SC line :D.
Yeah, please talk to your brother they are in great condition and never abused. I think Sierra's are in my future!

[boxinghris]

I'd rather a 2k Pana + $300 BDP, than a 6k Kuro with 1k DVD player. Because the former will blow the latter's PQ out of the water.

Why Denon/Marantz?

I am using a BD-30 since last year, everything works perfectly.

I've only updated FW twice ever. One was simply for an LFE cut. The other was for the hell of it.

If you think FW updates are silly, well I suggest you don't buy any pre/pro's or receivers either. Definitely not anything high end.

Well, I've actually auditioned a Panasonic BD-30 against my Denon DVD A1XV (5910 to you) which upscales to 1080p with a realta chipset and I think you might just be a little surprised at how close the two were.:rolleyes:

Unfortunately my Denon blew the BD-30 out of the water playing DVDs, CDs and of course SACDs and DVD-As, but I have to concede that Ratatoule on Blu-Ray was great!:o

Did I say firmware updates were silly, or is that you trying to put silly words in my mouth because it's easier to argue against?:confused:

Too late for me to refrain from buying anything high end as I've had a very nice Onkyo Integra seven channel pre/power amp rig for a while now which I haven't heard anything better than and so will be keeping for a little while longer, which is why I'll be after a decent Blu-Ray player with 7.1 analogue outputs and on board processing of HD audio codecs.:D

Can't get enough of that Ratatoule you see.;)

[jostenmeat]

Well, I've actually auditioned a Panasonic BD-30 against my Denon DVD A1XV (5910 to you) which upscales to 1080p with a realta chipset and I think you might just be a little surprised at how close the two were.:rolleyes:

How small is your TV? How old is your TV? What have you tested as far as Live Action?

Unfortunately my Denon blew the BD-30 out of the water playing DVDs, CDs and of course SACDs and DVD-As, but I have to concede that Ratatoule on Blu-Ray was great!:o

Sure. But for the cost of your player, I could buy a separate bluray player, separate CD player, separate SACD player, get my truck detailed, get a 20oz ribeye at the steakhouse, and still have money in the pocket.

Did I say firmware updates were silly, or is that you trying to put silly words in my mouth because it's easier to argue against?:confused:

I was absolutely cognizant of the fact that you did not specifically speak of FW when I created my post. What you were more specifically speaking of seemed to be "issues of compatibility". These "issues" are often solved by way of firmware, in case you were ignorant to that fact. For instance, both Sony and Samsung have had players recently updated to be able to handle the dual-bitstream codec of DTS-MA.

Of course, I could predict that you would counter such a statement with disparaging remarks regarding FW. It would be rather possible for someone like you to mention, no? Almost expected, if one wanted to argue against bluray, no? Neverthess, in regards to such possibility did I offer my experiences of extraordinarily smooth playback.

Do you now see the pertinence of firmware in light of your post? Or am I just being silly? Do you really suspect that it might be me who is saying silly words, and not yourself? :cool::eek:


edit: split stupid hairs with me at your own risk*

[boxinghris]

How small is your TV? How old is your TV? What have you tested as far as Live Action?



Sure.



I was absolutely cognizant of the fact that you did not specifically speak of FW when I created my post. What you were more specifically speaking of seemed to be "issues of compatibility". These "issues" are often solved by way of firmware, in case you were ignorant to that fact. For instance, both Sony and Samsung have had players recently updated to be able to handle the dual-bitstream codec of DTS-MA.

Of course, I could predict that you would counter such a statement with disparaging remarks regarding FW. It would be rather possible for someone like you to mention, no? Almost expected, if one wanted to argue against bluray, no? Neverthess, in regards to such possibility did I offer my experiences of extraordinarily smooth playback.

Do you now see the pertinence of firmware in light of your post? Or am I just being silly? Do you really suspect that it might be me who is saying silly words, and not yourself? :cool::eek:


edit: split stupid hairs with me at your own risk*

So, these issues which are 'often' solved by the updates (which I'm more aware of than it appeasr you realise); what happens with the issues which aren't solved huh?:confused:

Doesn't matter - next profile's comin' out next month!:D

The cost of my player was around £600 on the used market, and for that price you couldn't even buy a CD/SACD player to compare so your argument's a little limp, if not Bobbit-like to be exact, and my screen is a LX-5090 Pioneer Kuro which you might agree is capable of giving half-decent video performance?

In answer to your final observation, yes, I am now even more convinced than I was before that it might be you saying the silly words, and splitting stupid hairs with you is no risk to me whatsoever.:p

I'll make it clear again. I'm not attacking Blu-Ray, I'm attacking the implementation of the technology so far, the marketing and the prices of the software which isn't quite so silly as attacking a format with great potential.:)

[jostenmeat]

You are stupid.

[Gov]

Just finished watching "Iron Man" on Blu-ray again and I must say, it looked incredible on my Panasonic BD-30 player with the lastest firmware, and on my outdated Sony CRT RPTV!! And it of course sounded great on the SC-05 with the "DRC" off ;)

[BMXTRIX]

A silly post because you disagree and have bought into Blu-Ray?:rolleyes:
I disagree, not because I bought into Blu-ray, but because I did research and DID buy a PS3 and have had flawless performance and movies since the day the PS3 was released. So, while you are saying things like...
"it was released half-cocked" - the reality was that certain companies released inferior products which consumers should not have bought. Yet, much like Ferraris, Runco projectors, and Bose products, people make overpriced purchases with poor reliabilty or quality every day.

No, sorry to disappoint but I didn't buy into HD-DVD and so can give a detached view, unlike yourself who has nailed himself to the Blu-Ray flag, and in doing so you're now trying to distinguish yourself as being more discerning than anyone who hasn't yet bought a Blu-Ray player and who doesn't support the manufacturers of such machines.
I don't support machines which don't do what they say they are going to do. I think any player which can't play the basic Blu-ray Disc movie has failed. If a player is Profile 1.0, that is what should be expected by any consumer. I would agree whole-heartedly that those are insurmountable issues, but I'm not aware of players which fall into this category except maybe an early Samsung (?).

I'm not rooting against the format
Then don't say...
"Blu-Ray doesn't deserve to succeed"
...because that sure screams "Hey everyone! I'm rooting against the format!"

I'm simply saying that it was launched way too early because of HD-DVD
Absolutely - from a straightforward point of view, that's all that needs to be said. You could have said "I wish HD DVD hadn't pushed Blu-ray players onto the market early", but you chose not to. Blu-ray, according to all early reports was about 6 months behind for basic players and 18 months behind for fully featured players, and this information was known to those who did some homework BEFORE either format was released. But, HD DVD (Toshiba) forced the BDA to respond, and it was several half arsed players which were put out. Very unfortunate.

...wasn't ready for market and has been playing catch up ever since with decent players only now starting to appear even though a games consol showed there was no excuse for the gliches and lack of functionality early adopters were expected to put up with.
Yes, very unfortunate that some early players had significant issues. Lets kill the format for it! As far as 'catch up' - Blu-ray has always been a technologically superior product compared to the (only) competitor in HD DVD. It also had to deal with dozens of involved companies and new technologies which made it far more difficult to fully organize. But, for those who were not early adopters, or bought a PS3, or are happy with Profile 1.0, there are far fewer complaints then you seem to believe.

For the record I will support any format which offers superior quality to the very best upscaling DVD players, but certainly NOT when such a format is not finalised, is not the full spec, the backwards compatibility with DVD is dire and the actual discs cost twice as much as DVDs.
Then you certainly should focus on the specific failings of the product, and certain manufacturers, not blame the format itself. Early studio releases were not properly mastered, which should have led to movies not being released. Early players should have allowed for proper firmware updates to handle all discs - which hasn't seemed to happen for a player or two (or more?). Recent discs still are authored by studios to do some stupid things... no idea why, but at least there is a way to resolve the issue. Most of all, the players seem to be getting better and better while pricing continues to fall.

In fact, show me a professional review of a Blu-Ray player where there weren't any compatibility or operational issues, at least before the current Panasonic BD55 and BD35 although I note that the latest review of the BD35 in homecinemachoice demonstrates that the BD-Live function didn't work.
I'm sure I could find some, but I've also seen my A2 lock up, and heard of firmware bricking the unit. So, exactly what company doesn't have issues? There is no 'perfect' player yet, but there were many claims of the same for DVD players for years. Seems you want a perfect player, at a reasonable price, without any possible issues at all and full support of everything you can possibly dream up.

Great, let me know when you find it.

Saying "Blu-Ray has had issues" is the biggest understatement since "Houston, we have a problem" in my humble opinion, and until these issues are fully resolved I certainly won't be investing in a player just yet.
That's your choice, but as I said, I've been enjoying my player for about 2 years now and all the HD quality that is has delivered along with it. Seems that sitting on the sidelines you may be so busy talking and complaining that you are missing the game. From the nosebleeds where I have no perspective at all, the game has been really enjoyable.

I'd disagree with this statement because in all other manufacturing industries, corrective action is taken to deal with flaws BEFORE the product is marketed.
Such as the iPod which always supported video and all current functionality in first generation players? How about Windows (in general)? Or cars which have parts constantly fail? How about satellite boxes which now needs MPEG4 compatibility? How about etc., etc., etc.?

Saying "this is profile 1.0, then there will be profile 1.3, then profile 2.0" etc is a joke - they should call a spade a spade and say "the product isn't ready yet but for now here's one that's half finished, then there's one that's a bit more finished and finally here's one that's nearly finished....but it's a bit slow".:(
Once again - your statements are silly. The profiles were released early on. The capabilities were as well. Each player has specifications which are available. There are reviews of products available. You can choose to buy in and enjoy, or choose not to. Clearly, you've made your choice, but don't pretend that a roadmap to future products is a 'joke', when it is likely that half the products you own are incapable of the features which are now standard (why not simply use HDMI 1.3 to your Integra - was it outdated?). I think you want to hold one format to a higher standard than you hold anything else in your life.

Pretty silly to me.

No doubt in the next few months I will own a Blu-Ray player and I am excited about higher-rez audio/video, but please give me a player which doesn't insult my intelligence and which does what Blu-Ray promised it would many moons ago; Denon or Marantz are looking favourites so far, shame about the lack of delay adjustment on the Pioneer.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

[Cpt.America]

I bought into Blu-Ray pretty early, long before it really had an obvious edge over HD-DVD. I did my homework, found it to be the better technology with better support, and dove in head first. I went with PS3 because it was the best (almost the only) blu-ray player at the time. My Blu collection is around 25 titles so far, and I have gotten most of them for around $19 bucks. I keep seeing people here say "oohh.. they cost TWICE as much as DVDs!!". Well, I dont think so. You just need to know where to look. Heck, remember when DVDs were first coming out back in 99ish? They were well over $20 a pop too, and they slowly came down. You may also not recall, that there were also a handfull of compatibility problems with different players in the early days of DVD too.

All I have to say... is while your sitting back with your 480 low def picture, complaining about the occasional compatibitly issue with some disk on some player... I am enjoying a bruttally good picture in 1080p and loving every minute of it.

What to do... what to do... complain about blu-ray... or sit back and enjoy blu-ray... which sounds better... hhhhmmm.

[boxinghris]

You are stupid.



Another who can give it but can't take it - plenty like you about on forums LOL!:D

[boxinghris]

I disagree, not because I bought into Blu-ray, but because I did research and DID buy a PS3 and have had flawless performance and movies since the day the PS3 was released. So, while you are saying things like...
"it was released half-cocked" - the reality was that certain companies released inferior products which consumers should not have bought. Yet, much like Ferraris, Runco projectors, and Bose products, people make overpriced purchases with poor reliabilty or quality every day.


I don't support machines which don't do what they say they are going to do. I think any player which can't play the basic Blu-ray Disc movie has failed. If a player is Profile 1.0, that is what should be expected by any consumer. I would agree whole-heartedly that those are insurmountable issues, but I'm not aware of players which fall into this category except maybe an early Samsung (?).


Then don't say...
"Blu-Ray doesn't deserve to succeed"
...because that sure screams "Hey everyone! I'm rooting against the format!"


Absolutely - from a straightforward point of view, that's all that needs to be said. You could have said "I wish HD DVD hadn't pushed Blu-ray players onto the market early", but you chose not to. Blu-ray, according to all early reports was about 6 months behind for basic players and 18 months behind for fully featured players, and this information was known to those who did some homework BEFORE either format was released. But, HD DVD (Toshiba) forced the BDA to respond, and it was several half arsed players which were put out. Very unfortunate.


Yes, very unfortunate that some early players had significant issues. Lets kill the format for it! As far as 'catch up' - Blu-ray has always been a technologically superior product compared to the (only) competitor in HD DVD. It also had to deal with dozens of involved companies and new technologies which made it far more difficult to fully organize. But, for those who were not early adopters, or bought a PS3, or are happy with Profile 1.0, there are far fewer complaints then you seem to believe.


Then you certainly should focus on the specific failings of the product, and certain manufacturers, not blame the format itself. Early studio releases were not properly mastered, which should have led to movies not being released. Early players should have allowed for proper firmware updates to handle all discs - which hasn't seemed to happen for a player or two (or more?). Recent discs still are authored by studios to do some stupid things... no idea why, but at least there is a way to resolve the issue. Most of all, the players seem to be getting better and better while pricing continues to fall.


I'm sure I could find some, but I've also seen my A2 lock up, and heard of firmware bricking the unit. So, exactly what company doesn't have issues? There is no 'perfect' player yet, but there were many claims of the same for DVD players for years. Seems you want a perfect player, at a reasonable price, without any possible issues at all and full support of everything you can possibly dream up.

Great, let me know when you find it.


That's your choice, but as I said, I've been enjoying my player for about 2 years now and all the HD quality that is has delivered along with it. Seems that sitting on the sidelines you may be so busy talking and complaining that you are missing the game. From the nosebleeds where I have no perspective at all, the game has been really enjoyable.


Such as the iPod which always supported video and all current functionality in first generation players? How about Windows (in general)? Or cars which have parts constantly fail? How about satellite boxes which now needs MPEG4 compatibility? How about etc., etc., etc.?


Once again - your statements are silly. The profiles were released early on. The capabilities were as well. Each player has specifications which are available. There are reviews of products available. You can choose to buy in and enjoy, or choose not to. Clearly, you've made your choice, but don't pretend that a roadmap to future products is a 'joke', when it is likely that half the products you own are incapable of the features which are now standard (why not simply use HDMI 1.3 to your Integra - was it outdated?). I think you want to hold one format to a higher standard than you hold anything else in your life.

Pretty silly to me.

No doubt in the next few months I will own a Blu-Ray player and I am excited about higher-rez audio/video, but please give me a player which doesn't insult my intelligence and which does what Blu-Ray promised it would many moons ago; Denon or Marantz are looking favourites so far, shame about the lack of delay adjustment on the Pioneer.:rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Oh dear - we're just going around in circles here and our responses are going to get longer and longer as we include quotes from each other, but unlike 'jostenmeat' you make points which although I have already considered and am aware of, are good points and you don't just spit your dummy out the pram and call me 'stupid'.:rolleyes:

Silly is OK as I'd level the same accusation at yourself, but I appreciate you're not stupid. ;)

To keep it short then and sign off (I won't be able to access the internet until next weekend), when I say the format doesn't deserve to succeed it's an attack on the way it's been handled/launched - Blu-Ray being an unmitigated success on launch would have meant studios being rewarded for a half-baked format with half-baked players with even a half-baked HDMI connection.

I've attacked SONY on audio forums when SACD was launched but at least the players were over-engineered, fantastic machines which still exist today doing great service.

You did your research and bought a PS3 which was a great choice, and I'd argue the only intelligent choice at the time and possibly still the best choice.
During your research you probably realised that none of the other players available were as quick to load, were as future proof or gave a better picture.
Ever since the start of the format war I've kept up to date like most enthusiasts and really am looking forward to full HD images which is why I invested in a Full HD KURO screen, currently providing excellent upscaled imagery which although great will be bested by excellent 'real' 1080p images and HD audio codecs.

The PS3 showed what COULD be manufactured and should have been the starting point for players which were improvements, but it didn't happen which is why enthusiasts who had no intention of ever playing a video game decided to buy PS3s for Blu-Ray playback; great machine - solid, reliable, upgradable, it's a shame SONY thinks gamers have higher expectations than video enthusiasts.

As you say yourself, "the players seem to be getting better and better while pricing continues to fall" which is the same for all technologies and was for DVD, but with Blu-Ray it's way more pronounced in respect of the 'better and better' bit.

I don't want a 'perfect player' (now that really is silly) but I do want one which can load as quickly as a PS3, can play every Blu-Ray disc, has high quality 7.1 analogue outputs (with delay adjustment!) and is capable of being multi-region (don't get me started).

The products I now own certainly ARE capable of handling the features which are now available, or at least those I want, and the higher rez codecs can be passed to the processor via analogue no problem so I have both full rez video and audio.

I'm not remotely interested in BD-Live by the way and it wouldn't be a sale stopper if a player had everything I wanted but no BD-live, although it probably will have.:rolleyes:

Finally then, Blu-Ray has matured over the last couple of years and I will be one of the most vocal supporters when the hardware and software deliver the goods as they should at a decent price, and they're almost there.
Insiders in the industry I've spoken to confirm that once the studios have made some money, prices of software will come down significantly but of course I'd argue that if prices came down now they'd sell way more discs and entice way more fence-sitters to buy players - it's not rocket science.:cool:

Catch you next week then so it looks like you're getting the last word for now which is fine by me - you can even call me silly again as it's water off a duck's back, and in fact you can even call me stupid but I think you're above that.:D

[boxinghris]

I bought into Blu-Ray pretty early, long before it really had an obvious edge over HD-DVD. I did my homework, found it to be the better technology with better support, and dove in head first. I went with PS3 because it was the best (almost the only) blu-ray player at the time. My Blu collection is around 25 titles so far, and I have gotten most of them for around $19 bucks. I keep seeing people here say "oohh.. they cost TWICE as much as DVDs!!". Well, I dont think so. You just need to know where to look. Heck, remember when DVDs were first coming out back in 99ish? They were well over $20 a pop too, and they slowly came down. You may also not recall, that there were also a handfull of compatibility problems with different players in the early days of DVD too.

All I have to say... is while your sitting back with your 480 low def picture, complaining about the occasional compatibitly issue with some disk on some player... I am enjoying a bruttally good picture in 1080p and loving every minute of it.

What to do... what to do... complain about blu-ray... or sit back and enjoy blu-ray... which sounds better... hhhhmmm.

I'm in the UK mate, and believe me, we get a LOT worse deal than you with Blu-Rays - it's not called 'RIP OFF BRITAIN for nothing:rolleyes:

Also, I'm not sat here watching low def 480, I'm sat back enjoying broadcast quality upscaled DVD and 1080i SKY HD, and my flirtation with a Panasonic BD30 demonstrated I'm not exactly being short changed either.;)

[fmw]

I'm a BD early adopter and, frankly, I've pretty much lost interest in it. I just record HD movies from satellite now and skip the overpriced discs.

But I do want to put in a word of support for the studios. Digital copying is theft and, I should add, a pretty easy theft to engage in and a very difficult one to protect against.

The music industry is trying to kill the CD just so they can have a dowload that is encoded to be harder to copy. The software industry has to go through gyrations to keep their software from showing up in a hundred other places with no revenue. DRM is the same thing. It protects the studios from theft - or at least some theft. If it all worked perfectly, the cost of the software might likely come down. Evey time the studios incorporate something to protect against digital copying, someone cracks it and the studios are forced to get even more extreme.

You can call it greed if you like. I view it as a company protecting its revenue stream, without which there would be no movies at all.

[BMXTRIX]

...when I say the format doesn't deserve to succeed it's an attack on the way it's been handled/launched - Blu-Ray being an unmitigated success on launch would have meant studios being rewarded for a half-baked format with half-baked players with even a half-baked HDMI connection.
I think if Toshiba hadn't stirred the pot with HD DVD, we likely wouldn't have seen Blu-ray for another 12-24 months, and we likely would have seen a far more polished product than what we ended up with. But, it was a bunch of very slow, and oftentimes buggy players out there, which I think sucks for those who bought them.

I've attacked SONY on audio forums when SACD was launched but at least the players were over-engineered, fantastic machines which still exist today doing great service.
But, it's important to remember that Panasonic is the majority patent holder in the Blu-ray technology, while Sony is the most vocal supporter. Just something to remember, since so many people like to think the product is entirely Sony driven. It's why I think Panasonic has some of the best players out there.

You did your research and bought a PS3 which was a great choice, and I'd argue the only intelligent choice at the time and possibly still the best choice.
It was actually a fairly random guess since I knew I wanted a PS3 and would wait and see if I also would need to invest in a decent BD player. I pre-ordered well before launch so I could have one on launch day. The reality that it has worked flawlessly for me over the past 2 years is dumb luck. But, it's hard to not be excited about it when it has been just that: flawless for two years.

The PS3 showed what COULD be manufactured and should have been the starting point for players which were improvements, but it didn't happen which is why enthusiasts who had no intention of ever playing a video game decided to buy PS3s for Blu-Ray playback; great machine - solid, reliable, upgradable, it's a shame SONY thinks gamers have higher expectations than video enthusiasts.
I agree, and I've said that I think Sony should release the PS3 in a more traditional black-case design with premium fans and quieter components, and sell it as a PS3es with IR built in and sell it at a profit ($1,000+ I would guess). It might cost more, but I think with the quality of the product, it would sell.

I don't want a 'perfect player' (now that really is silly) but I do want one which can load as quickly as a PS3, can play every Blu-Ray disc, has high quality 7.1 analogue outputs (with delay adjustment!) and is capable of being multi-region (don't get me started).
I think the multi-region may be the toughie, but Oppo may be the player with your name on it.

The products I now own certainly ARE capable of handling the features which are now available, or at least those I want, and the higher rez codecs can be passed to the processor via analogue no problem so I have both full rez video and audio.
I was just making a point - that's all. Just because they didn't have final spec (2.0) players on launch date didn't mean that they weren't allowed to have them later. As long as 1.0 players play discs, a lot of owners will still be happy, even if you wouldn't be.

I'm not remotely interested in BD-Live by the way and it wouldn't be a sale stopper if a player had everything I wanted but no BD-live, although it probably will have.:rolleyes:
I said over two years ago that a few years into the life of BD that every player that hit the market would feature the capabilities of handling everything that anyone wanted, so for people to ditch the format one day one was stupid (not directed at you). Instead, people either needed to suck up that the technology had its shortcomings, or simply not buy in for a while.

Choosing not to buy in is fine. Complaining is fine. But, the studios and CEs are working to make it better all the time, so if you love HD it seems like BD must be in your future at some point. Granted these last couple of posts read a fair bit different from your first.

...you can even call me silly again as it's water off a duck's back, and in fact you can even call me stupid but I think you're above that.:D
Not at all! If you were stupid, I would call you stupid. And I think the first post you made was kind of silly (not you silly, but the post), but I don't think this one was at all. It was far more level headed and addressed more specifically what you were looking for from the format, which I totally respect, and pretty much agree with.

[allargon]

I think if Toshiba hadn't stirred the pot with HD DVD, we likely wouldn't have seen Blu-ray for another 12-24 months, and we likely would have seen a far more polished product than what we ended up with. But, it was a bunch of very slow, and oftentimes buggy players out there, which I think sucks for those who bought them.


But, it's important to remember that Panasonic is the majority patent holder in the Blu-ray technology, while Sony is the most vocal supporter. Just something to remember, since so many people like to think the product is entirely Sony driven. It's why I think Panasonic has some of the best players out there.


It was actually a fairly random guess since I knew I wanted a PS3 and would wait and see if I also would need to invest in a decent BD player. I pre-ordered well before launch so I could have one on launch day. The reality that it has worked flawlessly for me over the past 2 years is dumb luck. But, it's hard to not be excited about it when it has been just that: flawless for two years.


I agree, and I've said that I think Sony should release the PS3 in a more traditional black-case design with premium fans and quieter components, and sell it as a PS3es with IR built in and sell it at a profit ($1,000+ I would guess). It might cost more, but I think with the quality of the product, it would sell.


I think the multi-region may be the toughie, but Oppo may be the player with your name on it.


I was just making a point - that's all. Just because they didn't have final spec (2.0) players on launch date didn't mean that they weren't allowed to have them later. As long as 1.0 players play discs, a lot of owners will still be happy, even if you wouldn't be.


I said over two years ago that a few years into the life of BD that every player that hit the market would feature the capabilities of handling everything that anyone wanted, so for people to ditch the format one day one was stupid (not directed at you). Instead, people either needed to suck up that the technology had its shortcomings, or simply not buy in for a while.

Choosing not to buy in is fine. Complaining is fine. But, the studios and CEs are working to make it better all the time, so if you love HD it seems like BD must be in your future at some point. Granted these last couple of posts read a fair bit different from your first.


Do you work for a CE company? You aren't related to Dobyblue by any chance are you?

Blaming HD DVD for Blu-Ray's screwups is way too much. If HD DVD weren't around to compete pretty much all discs would look like the original Fifth Element or Full Metal Jacket, MPEG2 and PCM (or 640 kbit DD) would be the norm rather than AVC/VC-1 and Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD MA. Players would be $1500 at launch and still wouldn't play CD's in the first generation (*cough* Sony *cough* Pioneer).

Studios and CE's working to make it better? CE's are working to compete. Studios are releasing barely enough to keep the format alive. If studios wanted to make it better they would release the best releases possible for the lowest prices possible.

BTW, there's still a lack of 50GB replication capacity with Blu-Ray. The death of HD DVD has only exacerbated that.

The BH200 is multi-region Blu-Ray (for the most part) but not profile 2.0. LG is giving its owners $75 back as a result. :rolleyes:

[BMXTRIX]

Do you work for a CE company? You aren't related to Dobyblue by any chance are you?
Only if you are a Toshiba employee. Though, I think making such an accusation and then ignoring the economics of a competitive market aren't exactly what I would consider any attempt at a rational arguement.

Blaming HD DVD for Blu-Ray's screwups is way too much.
I don't blame Toshiba, I recognize that the early players were cruddy and I think it sucks for consumers who bought them. I do acknowledge though that when HD DVD came to market that the BDA's hand was forced and they could have ignored the market for 18 months - but I think a kid in high school would realize how stupid that would be. I'm sure you can see how that would have made no sense at all for the BDA to sit idly by while Toshiba stuck it out as the only product on the market.

If HD DVD weren't around to compete pretty much all discs would look like the original Fifth Element or Full Metal Jacket, MPEG2 and PCM (or 640 kbit DD) would be the norm rather than AVC/VC-1 and Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD MA. Players would be $1500 at launch and still wouldn't play CD's in the first generation (*cough* Sony *cough* Pioneer).
By that logic, if it wasn't for DivX, DVD players would never have come out with anamorphic discs, DL discs, DD or DTS products, and we would never have seen upconverting players. Of course, those first generation players at $1,500 would never have dropped in price either.

Come on, in the world of silly statements, you just followed the HD DVD fanboy party line. That is, instead of recognizing that consumers already have DVD and HDTV as a yard stick, and Blu-ray needed to best that yard stick - which they didn't with those first titles, that it was because of HD DVD only for why they improved.

Blu-ray improved because consumers had the expectation of superior HD, and regardless of HD DVD's quality, it was clear on the first few discs that they were rushed to market and not nearly at the quality levels which HD afficinados had come to expect. Remember, HD Tivos are out there as well as D-VHS for HD content delivery. People know what to expect.

Studios and CE's working to make it better? CE's are working to compete. Studios are releasing barely enough to keep the format alive. If studios wanted to make it better they would release the best releases possible for the lowest prices possible.
Back to high school business for you then.

Studios and CEs aren't working to compete - they are working to make money. You don't make the most money by selling a $10 product to a million people at $25 - or to 2 million people at $15. You make the most money by selling a $5 product for $14 to ten million people or more. This is where DVD is at right now, but it is losing steam. Blu-ray is releasing over a dozen movies a week, every week, from now until around mid-Februrary according to the current schedule...

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html

For Nov. 18, it's over 30 releases. Frankly, that's more movies than I typically want to buy in a year. At 12 a week, minimum, it's over 600 titles a year. Over a movie a day for people to enjoy. But, at a movie a day, most people are going to be watching the dregs of what movies have to offer.

I don't know what magic number is acceptable to you, but it looks like the release schedule has more than doubled compared to a year ago.

That's positive growth during a national, if not world-wide recession. Perhaps you could redefine 'barely enough' for me so that it applies to this situation?

BTW, there's still a lack of 50GB replication capacity with Blu-Ray. The death of HD DVD has only exacerbated that.
So, on the one hand, they aren't releasing enough movies, but on the other hand, they can't keep up with demand? Seems to me that it's only one simple thing - they can't keep up with demand. They need more replicators, they need more players, they need to bring prices down, they need to improve quality...

All of which is exactly what we have seen the BDA do up to this point, so I'm not sure why anyone would believe that they would stop doing so.

The BH200 is multi-region Blu-Ray (for the most part) but not profile 2.0. LG is giving its owners $75 back as a result. :rolleyes:
Any player which is claimed to meet 2.0 spec and never does should entitle owners to a 100% refund IMO. CEs still have work to do, and I think that they are doing it. Fortunately, I have had my perfectly functioning BD player for over 2 years now, so I'm not really worried about what LG is doing - that is their own company policy to decide.

[dobyblue]

Just think what the average consumer is doing

That's an easy one, they're watching DVD's still.

Do you work for a CE company? You aren't related to Dobyblue by any chance are you?
No he isn't related to me.
BTW, there's still a lack of 50GB replication capacity with Blu-Ray. The death of HD DVD has only exacerbated that.

That is incorrect. If you saw how quickly Paramount re-pressed close to one million copies of Iron Man while Sony had to re-run a few million copies of LBP you'd know that wasn't the case.

All BD50 runs scheduled still made their marks. Some orders that were left to the last minute were handled by smaller replication centres, but I didn't see any miss their marks or not have enough for retail.