Big room...thin speakers

[ivseenbetter]

My Dad wants to change up his sound system. He has a pretty big room to fill with sound. Right now he has been using some old Energy speakers and he is tired of the footprint they take up. Anyway, his room is pretty big...it opens up to almost the entire house and there are vaulted ceilings too. So, I told him it will be hard to get something that can fill that space with decent sound but he is determined to try. He has even checked out the Bose display at Best Buy. He was impressed with the sound coming from those little cubes. Anyway, I explained that those stations have those little cubes about 16" away from your ear so it is easy to sound good from that distance. His huge room would be a whole other story. So, I will get room dimensions and seating distance from him soon. I will get the exact model of Energy speakers he is using too so that folks can get an idea of what he is used to listening to. In the meantime if you can point me in the direction of what I should look into I would appreciate it. I just don't see how his room could be filled with decent sound without using big ol' floorstanders.

[Joe Schmoe]

Def Tech Mythos are tall but skinny, very sleek looking, powerful, and sound great (a bit pricey, though.)

[jostenmeat]

iveseenbetter, joe brings up a good point, often the most important point! Budget??

And just how skinny is skinny. Serious. The PSB Synchrony Two (http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/Synchrony/Synchrony-Two) is 1.25" wider than the Mythos tower I just looked up (forgot already which model). The Synchrony 1 is yet another 1.25" wider.

Not cheap! But I've only heard great things about their performance.

[mazersteven]

Def Tech Mythos are tall but skinny, very sleek looking, powerful, and sound great (a bit pricey, though.)

I hope your talking about Mythos SuperTowers. Because the Mythos One, Four and Five's IMO lack sound quality vs. other speakers at the same price point.

http://www.definitivetech.com/loudspeakers/mythos/mythos_supertowers.html

[ivseenbetter]

I appreciate the speedy replies. I will take a look at those two models. I am hoping to get some more specific details from him about this tonight. I was just frightened by the fact he was looking at Bose.

In my mind I guess I have to wonder how a speaker that is designed for a small foot print can actually move enough air to fill a very large room. It seems like they would have to work extra hard to do this...and how do speaker companies over come this?

[jostenmeat]

In my mind I guess I have to wonder how a speaker that is designed for a small foot print can actually move enough air to fill a very large room. It seems like they would have to work extra hard to do this...and how do speaker companies over come this?

More drivers I suppose. Also, with the narrower speakers of today, there is step diffraction that makes the midbass or bass weaker. So, what these companies do is lower the impedance to provide more juice at those frequencies. I believe that it might often be the minimal impedance of a typical modern tower. AFAIK, to the best of my current knowledge.

BTW, the specs for Syn 2: -3db at 36hz, 4ohms minimum as well as nominal, sensitivity anechoic 88db, in-room 90 db.

[cbraver]

What about inwalls? What is your budget? What does he use to power the speakers? Does he have a subwoofer?

[Alex2507]

I had seen some of the Martin Logan In-Wall offerings posted here before so I looked 'em up and am trying to post link to a video they have:

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/video/inwall_features.wmv

The Voyage line is around $2K a piece I think. :eek:
Much like internet porn, looks are free. :D

[jcPanny]

On-wall or in-wall speakers can help maximize asthetics and still offer decent performance. Even nice bookshelf speakers with a good sub will look smaller than floorstander even though they take up the same amount of space.

[FirstReflection]

The most difficult frequencies to deal with when it comes to a very large room are the mid-bass, bass and sub-bass. From the midrange on up, you don't have to worry as much about "filling" the space. You can use more directional speakers (line arrays, horn loaded, ring radiator) and then your only worry is enough dynamic head room to reach 105 dB peaks without distortion at the seating distance.

All of this is to say that the best solution for your father is going to involve probably two very capable subwoofers - perhaps augmenting them with a mid-bass module and then focusing on getting some very efficient and directional "satellites" to handle the midrange and upper frequencies.

So the midrange and up can be handled by in-wall, on-wall or smaller sized speakers - provided they still have enough output and dynamic range for the seating distance. But this is much easier to find than trying to obtain full range speakers that can genuinely fill the room with mid-bass and lower as well while having a small footprint.

Divide and conquer ;)

As others have said, we don't know what the budget is hear. But the bass and sub-bass are somewhat easy in the sense that between HSU, SVS, Elemental Designs, Epik or AV123, it's easy to get some massively powerful, extremely accurate subwoofers for relatively low prices. These definitely are LARGE subwoofers though, so they won't do much for eliminating footprint concerns. On the plus side though, many of them come with beautiful finish options and could most certainly be used AS furniture. Placed as a side table or a stand of some sort, they can be blended into the room as functional pieces of furniture, rather than just being a subwoofer.

Regardless of which one you chose, be SURE to decouple that beast with a Auralex GRAMMA or similar product. Decoupling the subwoofer from the floor beneath it makes a HUGE difference. Not only is the sound that you hear greatly improved, but with tremendous reduction of structure-borne transmission, the rest of the house gets far less of that "thud thud" annoying bass resonance. To me, decoupling the subwoofer is mandatory!

A mid-bass module could also go a long way to filling a very large space with stellar sound quality. The range from 50 to about 100 Hz is a critical region of the low frequencies and contains basically all of the musical nature of bass, rather than just the raw power and percussive and tactile nature of really low bass. The mid-bass is where all of the "warmth" and "fullness" of sound resides, so this is very often the range that is somewhat lacking in smaller primary speakers - even when mated with a subwoofer.

To that end, consider placing something like HSU's MBM-12 directly behind the seat. This too, should be decoupled from the floor with a GRAMMA. It is not small, but it can be somewhat "hidden" with a placement directly behind a seat, which is where it sounds best and is intended to be placed in any event.

With all of that low end taken care of, you can have your pick of slim or in-wall, or on-wall or otherwise physically smaller speakers. Again though, the thing to look for here will still be relatively high output capabilities that can handle high peak output volume levels with low distortion for a fairly long seating distance.

I would definitely give some consideration to RBH M-Series speakers or the thin towers or on-wall speakers from EMP as a great place to start!

[davidtwotrees]

Here is a link to a Canton Karat (http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/CANTKARAT711GRPHA/CANTON/KARAT-711DC-3-way-Floorstanding-Speakers-in-Black-Pair/1.html) floor stander that has a width of 7 1/2". I own an earlier version of these and can tell you they will fill his room with sound....they are quite beautiful. These are in a graphite, or else they come in white, silver, and a couple of wood veneers. Stunning. And if the price tag of $2k is too much, they have cheaper versions as well. The Karats are also offered in bookshelf sizes that I bet would do just fine in a big room....

[m_vanmeter]

Have you considered Magneplaner flat panel speakers ? Worth considering...

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG

[ivseenbetter]

Wow! Some really great posts guys. I will throw some "Thanks" out there when I get to a computer that will actually let me do it (for some reason the function doesn't work from my work computer).

I'm working with him to define a budget. I don't think "the sky is the limit" but I think he might be willing to spend a decent penny. He is replacing some Energy Connoisseur C-6 speakers that he has had for a very long time. The room is 25 x 23 x 12 high cathedral ceiling and he sits about 12 ft back. When I discussed the option of a subwoofer to help with low end he didn't seem too enthused. His response was: "I may consider it...but I don't watch many movies". He definitely does not want to do an inwall solution which I felt was the best over all remedy.

Anyway, I am going to thumb through all the suggestions on here and see if I can get more details from him. I know I learned a lot from you guys already and it helped me decided what I need for my application but I'm having a hard time figuring out what he really wants to see happen here.

Budget and more details coming soon!

[ivseenbetter]

Have you considered Magneplaner flat panel speakers ? Worth considering...

http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG


Don't the mangepan speakers need to have a lot of space between them and the wall to really sound good? I like the look but placement might be an issue if that is the case.

[ivseenbetter]

What about inwalls? What is your budget? What does he use to power the speakers? Does he have a subwoofer?

Inwalls are a no-go. For power he is using an Adcom amp...not sure on model. I have it here somewhere but can't find it. He is wanting to go with a new receiver though so that he can have a single box solution. He was thinking RX-V663.

I had seen some of the Martin Logan In-Wall offerings posted here before so I looked 'em up and am trying to post link to a video they have:

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/video/inwall_features.wmv



The Voyage line is around $2K a piece I think. :eek:
Much like internet porn, looks are free. :D

Love em! Can't do inwall though. Bummer. I tried to go in that direction though.

On-wall or in-wall speakers can help maximize asthetics and still offer decent performance. Even nice bookshelf speakers with a good sub will look smaller than floorstander even though they take up the same amount of space.

I'm running this by the ol' man right now. Good point.

The most difficult frequencies to deal with when it comes to a very large room are the mid-bass, bass and sub-bass. From the midrange on up, you don't have to worry as much about "filling" the space. You can use more directional speakers (line arrays, horn loaded, ring radiator) and then your only worry is enough dynamic head room to reach 105 dB peaks without distortion at the seating distance.

All of this is to say that the best solution for your father is going to involve probably two very capable subwoofers - perhaps augmenting them with a mid-bass module and then focusing on getting some very efficient and directional "satellites" to handle the midrange and upper frequencies.

So the midrange and up can be handled by in-wall, on-wall or smaller sized speakers - provided they still have enough output and dynamic range for the seating distance. But this is much easier to find than trying to obtain full range speakers that can genuinely fill the room with mid-bass and lower as well while having a small footprint.

Divide and conquer ;)

As others have said, we don't know what the budget is hear. But the bass and sub-bass are somewhat easy in the sense that between HSU, SVS, Elemental Designs, Epik or AV123, it's easy to get some massively powerful, extremely accurate subwoofers for relatively low prices. These definitely are LARGE subwoofers though, so they won't do much for eliminating footprint concerns. On the plus side though, many of them come with beautiful finish options and could most certainly be used AS furniture. Placed as a side table or a stand of some sort, they can be blended into the room as functional pieces of furniture, rather than just being a subwoofer.

Regardless of which one you chose, be SURE to decouple that beast with a Auralex GRAMMA or similar product. Decoupling the subwoofer from the floor beneath it makes a HUGE difference. Not only is the sound that you hear greatly improved, but with tremendous reduction of structure-borne transmission, the rest of the house gets far less of that "thud thud" annoying bass resonance. To me, decoupling the subwoofer is mandatory!

A mid-bass module could also go a long way to filling a very large space with stellar sound quality. The range from 50 to about 100 Hz is a critical region of the low frequencies and contains basically all of the musical nature of bass, rather than just the raw power and percussive and tactile nature of really low bass. The mid-bass is where all of the "warmth" and "fullness" of sound resides, so this is very often the range that is somewhat lacking in smaller primary speakers - even when mated with a subwoofer.

To that end, consider placing something like HSU's MBM-12 directly behind the seat. This too, should be decoupled from the floor with a GRAMMA. It is not small, but it can be somewhat "hidden" with a placement directly behind a seat, which is where it sounds best and is intended to be placed in any event.

With all of that low end taken care of, you can have your pick of slim or in-wall, or on-wall or otherwise physically smaller speakers. Again though, the thing to look for here will still be relatively high output capabilities that can handle high peak output volume levels with low distortion for a fairly long seating distance.

I would definitely give some consideration to RBH M-Series speakers or the thin towers or on-wall speakers from EMP as a great place to start!

Damn! Excellent and detailed post. Much appreciate the time you spent writing it! Lot's of good info here.

[ivseenbetter]

Here is a link to a Canton Karat (http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/CANTKARAT711GRPHA/CANTON/KARAT-711DC-3-way-Floorstanding-Speakers-in-Black-Pair/1.html) floor stander that has a width of 7 1/2". I own an earlier version of these and can tell you they will fill his room with sound....they are quite beautiful. These are in a graphite, or else they come in white, silver, and a couple of wood veneers. Stunning. And if the price tag of $2k is too much, they have cheaper versions as well. The Karats are also offered in bookshelf sizes that I bet would do just fine in a big room....

I liked the Karat's I was looking at those awhile back from accessories4less.

[FirstReflection]

Glad you found my post helpful :)

Just to maybe help in convincing your father: the idea that a subwoofer is mostly for movies is, sadly, a notion that a lot of people have. You might say that it's an older notion - one that came about back when everyone thought the ideal was full range speakers for music and that the only use for a subwoofer was explosions and LFE.

But times have changed, more studies have been done and we have a better understanding now of how the entire audible frequency range interacts with a room and better understanding of how we hear as well. A tremendous amount of emotional reaction comes from hearing bass frequencies and almost all music actually contains a great deal of mid-bass and lower frequencies.

Long story short, a subwoofer is just as vital - perhaps even more so - to music enjoyment as it is to movie enjoyment. The idea that we need full range speakers only in order to properly enjoy music is, like I said, an older notion and doesn't really jive with all of the modern research on hearing and sound. Dividing the duties of sound reproduction between several more specialized speakers can actually deliver to our ears a more accurate and more pleasing experience. We do not hear all frequencies in the same way, the room does not interact with all frequencies in the same way, so reproducing them all from the same location and from the same speaker does not really make a lot of sense any more ;)

[jostenmeat]

We do not hear all frequencies in the same way, the room does not interact with all frequencies in the same way, so reproducing them all from the same location and from the same speaker does not really make a lot of sense any more ;)

I think it gets a bit complex. I hear what you are saying, but one nice thing about using a pair of full range speakers is that one doesn't have to worry about phase, for instance. Then, what speakers are you combining them with? If they suffer in the midbass, and you raise the x-over point of the sub, you are going to want those subs up front next to the mains anyways.

And since this thread seems to be focused on life-style looks as a primary concern, I don't really see how an Elemental Design replete with truck bed liner finish, and a MBM sitting on a GRAMMA directly behing the couch is very sexy. And, having midbass directly behind the head . . . ? Isn't that going to be challenging in terms of localization, let alone phase?

I don't mean to bust yer ballz, but bringing up some thoughts for the sake of momentarily being a devil's advocate. :eek:

[ivseenbetter]

I think it gets a bit complex. I hear what you are saying, but one nice thing about using a pair of full range speakers is that one doesn't have to worry about phase, for instance. Then, what speakers are you combining them with? If they suffer in the midbass, and you raise the x-over point of the sub, you are going to want those subs up front next to the mains anyways.

And since this thread seems to be focused on life-style looks as a primary concern, I don't really see how an Elemental Design replete with truck bed liner finish, and a MBM sitting on a GRAMMA directly behing the couch is very sexy. And, having midbass directly behind the head . . . ? Isn't that going to be challenging in terms of localization, let alone phase?

I don't mean to bust yer ballz, but bringing up some thoughts for the sake of momentarily being a devil's advocate. :eek:

Nope. I hear you. All good points. I think there is going to need to be a sacrifice in what my dad wants at some point. Performance vs looks. I just hope he doesn't go for looks and get the Bose! :o

[FirstReflection]

I think it gets a bit complex. I hear what you are saying, but one nice thing about using a pair of full range speakers is that one doesn't have to worry about phase, for instance. Then, what speakers are you combining them with? If they suffer in the midbass, and you raise the x-over point of the sub, you are going to want those subs up front next to the mains anyways.

And since this thread seems to be focused on life-style looks as a primary concern, I don't really see how an Elemental Design replete with truck bed liner finish, and a MBM sitting on a GRAMMA directly behing the couch is very sexy. And, having midbass directly behind the head . . . ? Isn't that going to be challenging in terms of localization, let alone phase?

I don't mean to bust yer ballz, but bringing up some thoughts for the sake of momentarily being a devil's advocate. :eek:

No complaints at all from me. It most definitely gets complex! But I welcome you bringing up any issues and questions, because ther is most certainly not a "one size fits all" type of solution when we're talking about real world audio.

What I'm really trying to get across here though is that we now know that it is not necessary or even ideal to use only full range 20Hz - 20kHz towers. What I'm trying to get across is that it is possible to use smaller, more aesthetically attractive speakers, so long as the mid-bass and bass are handled by more capable subwoofers.

Any bass producing speaker - any at all - is going to create modes - nulls, peaks and resonance - in any given room. If we stick with the old idea of only using full range speakers, we have no leeway when it comes to positioning really. The bass is going to be emanating from the tower speakers' positions and that is that.

Now we can do real time spectral analysis, EQ the heck out the signal, treat the room and even move the seating position. But the much more feasible approach is to simply seperate the bass frequencies. Have them reproduced by a seperate subwoofer and thus gain the freedom to place the bass producing speaker(s) in a more ideal location.

From a performance standpoint, you can actually achieve better results and do so with less struggle and ultimately less time and money.

And all of that without even touching upon physical size. Simply put, full range speakers have to be physically large. Reproducing deep bass response demands moving a lot of air and there's just no way around it.

So basically, all I'm saying is that instead of trying to find slim full range towers, it just makes so much more sense to first focus on getting a great subwoofer and then not worry about full range speakers, but rather, focus on finding some slim speakers that perform well from 80Hz-100Hz on up. That way, the compromise between looks and performance is a whole lot better. You can get the slim, attractive looks and still get very good performance! But try and obtain full range performance from a skinny tower speaker and there's just no way around the issue - you're going to sacrifice on sound quality.

More specifically for this situation - in a room that is not only large, but also open to other areas of the house, standing waves are actually less of an issue, so in a way, you'll be more able to get away with using just one subwoofer, rather than needing two. The only question becomes a matter of output though. That single subwoofer would now have to be able to pressurize the entirety of the open space. That can be extremely difficult! But the companies that I mentioned make subs that are more or less up to the task.

The quip about the HUGE and rather ugly Elemental Designs subs is apt. They are most certainly huge and ugle :p But some of the SVS, AV123 and HSU subs can actually look quite nice. Still very large in physical size, but not as ugly as the eD subs ;)

So to sum up - if you're worried about the compromise between slim looks and good performance, I'm just trying to convey that the very best solution is to seperate the bass frequencies and have them handled by a capable sub - that's all :) Slim towers just aren't going to cut it. Your dad really would have to give up a lot of performance just to meet those looks. But seperate the bass and the story changes! All of a sudden he can have his cake and eat it too! Maybe use the sub as the table...that way the cake won't end up slipping onto the floor :p

[FirstReflection]

I wanted to follow up with some thoughts about the receiver as well.

Yet again, seperating the bass would definitely be the way to go if your dad wants to use a receiver rather than seperates with a more powerful seperate amplifier. Trying to drive a full range signal with a receiver would NOT be a good idea and would not produce good results at all in a large room. Again, bass requires moving a lot of air. That means either moving woofers with a large physical area, or moving woofers a great distance in and out (the excursion) or both! Either method requires a LOT of power and a receiver just won't deliver it.

But have a subwoofer produce the bass instead, and once again, the story changes! Now the subwoofer uses its own internal amp to drive its own large woofer. Now the receiver only needs to power the smaller drivers of the slim speakers and only has to worry about frequencies from 80Hz on up. This is a much lighter load. And a receiver will be much better able to handle this task!

If you're looking for any receiver recommendations, I really would have to give the nod to Denon right now. For one, their power section (amps) are solid. I'm sure you've read reviews - Denon has a very good reputation for solid, well performing amplifiers in their receivers.

But more than that, with their 09 series lineup, they've really added some excellent new features IMO - almost all of them having to do with Audyssey.

In a large, open room like this, you're going to have some odd room interactions with the sound - it's inevitable really. While the tip top solution involves paying a professional to come in and do a real time analysis, the next best solution is to use a very good auto-setup/calibration. And in that field, right now, Audyssey is the tops - without question IMO. Yamaha has their YPAO, Pioneer has their MCACC, Harman Kardon has their EzSet/EQ - none of them are as good as Audyssey IMO. I'm just one guy who's tried them all, but that is my opinion. Not saying the others are bad, just saying I think Audyssey is the best. But there's more as well!

Audyssey has also introduced some new technologies: Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume. Strictly speaking, you may not want to use these features since they do alter the original signal, but in my experience with them, they most certainly can enhance enjoyment in a lot of situations.

So the Audyssey technologies start with MultEQ, which as I said, I think is the best auto-setup/EQ for home receivers right now. Some models also add BassXT, which ends up making the name MultEQ XT, and in this situation, that could be a great feature to have as well. BassXT extends Audyssey equalization down to the subwoofer and also adds a certain level of protection. During setup, BassXT examines the subwoofer's response and essentially learns its limits. This allows the receiver to send an EQ'd subwoofer signal that can produce flatter frequency response. It will also stop short of sending signals that the subwoofer cannot reproduce without bottoming out, so that is where the protection comes in.

Dynamic EQ is a fantastic feature IMO. Basically, our hearing is the most "flat" at 85dB. In other words, regardless of what frequency is played, if it is played at 85dB, we more or less perceive it to be equally as loud as any other frequency played at 85dB. And that is why 85dB is "reference level".

But below 85dB, our perception of sound is not at all "flat". The quieter the volume level, the worse our ability to hear bass and very high frequencies. Basically, we are evolved to best hear mid-range - which makes perfect sense, since that is the realm of the human voice.

What Dynamic EQ does is intelligently adjust the frequency response. Most people find a median 85dB listening level to be too loud. It may be "reference level", but our typical "enjoyment level" is closer to 75dB. This normally creates a problem, now the mid-range is pleasing in volume, but we're actually losing bass and treble. The signal is all there, but our ears are blanking some of it out. Dynamic EQ adjusts the response so that it once again sounds flat to our ears. So now you can listen at a more pleasing volume level (ie. quieter) but still hear the balance between all frequencies from low to high the way it was intended.

Dynamic Volume is a great feature, but only sometimes IMO. For serious listening, turn it off. But for TV watching, I think it's awesome! Dynamic Volume addresses the common problem where TV ads sound WAY louder than the program and where some channels are way louder than others. I think we've all come across this annoyance and Dynamic Volume largely solves it. This is not just straight up dynamic compression. This is not Dolby Night Mode where a huge amount of detail is lost. Dynamic Volume DOES compress the dynamic range - which is why for serious listening, you want to turn it off - but it does so far more intelligently than older technology and it uses MutlEQ and Dynamic EQ to retain detail while it's at work. For TV watching, I really think it works great. It's not flawless, but it goes a long way in reducing the panicked scramble for the remote to turn down the volume when a commercial comes on!

So it's awesome to see this full suit of Audyssey technologies in Denon's receivers and that is why I recommend them :)

[ivseenbetter]

Well, I have been trying to get a budget out of him and he seems set on the speakers not costing any more than 700. I'm kind of shocked because I know his orignal investment in his equipment was much more than that. He also mentioned the bose solution again. I finally told him to try them out. Bring them home and set them up and see how they sound at home. Return it immediately if your not happy. I'm curious to see how this turns out. I wonder if he will like them. Oh well. I still appreciate all the posts people added to this thread though. If I can talk him into a higher budget I will re-energize this topic. Until then I don't think there is a legit 700 solution.

[jostenmeat]

Oh dear.

Maybe push the budget $148 for Ascend Sierra-1s? Hey, its your dad, tell him you will pay the difference. Just an idea.

edit: 14.25" x 7.5" x 10.5"

Link (http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/SRM1/srm1.html)

[FirstReflection]

Well, he can't even get the awful awful Bose speakers for $700 :p

I think we need a refresher - what all is your dad wanting to buy for $700?

Are we talking about just wanting 2 speakers for that price? Or is he wanting 5 speakers?

I think people have really come to falsely expect miracles from technology. We see all these tiny devices now and we marvel at what they can do, but sadly, such size expectations simply do not translate to speakers. When we're talking about physical movement, size matters. And no amount of technology can bend those physics!

In a nut shell, here's the deal:

your dad can get some small or slim speakers and they can even sound good. But not for the entire frequency range and they just cannot replace full range towers.

The very best compromise is like I've said - get a great performing subwoofer and use that along with some slim or small speakers. You can do this without sacrificing a ton of quality and it could even be an upgrade in sound quality from the towers he has right now.

Can a pair of slim or small speakers and a great sub be had for $700? Kinda. But they would not be sufficient for a large room. Again, there's just no bending physics. The bass is the most difficult part, but the speakers have to be up to the task as well. A 12' listening distance is not huge, but it is fairly substantial. The sound will be from 6-12dB quieter at that distance vs being 1m away, which is the distance used for measuring.

Anyways, it's his money and I suppose he can do with it as he pleases. It's just too bad that he's willing to throw his money away on garbage, rather than spend a little bit more for genuinely good performance in addition to good looks.

[ivseenbetter]

Ok, I was poking at him a bit and he admitted that the Bose is going to cost 2K so he realizes the numbers he suggested are not going to equate to much. So, he is basically asking me to "put something together" and then he will decide from there.

Personally, I'm not against him getting the bose just to try out in his own home. Listen to them and take them back...that way there is no doubt about how they will sound. Heck, he may love them and then all of this would be for nothing. I don't personally care for Bose but it seems like they make a decent speaker...just over priced for what you get. I just don't think it is the right solution for his room.

Anyway, I guess the slate is clean right now. We know some details about his room. I don't think he is going to want to break out the speakers into to many differnt types. He already has inceiling speakers for his surrounds so that is covered. He is also pretty much in favor of the Yammy RX-V663 if we go the receiver route. It seems to me that this receiver is the price/performance leader. Maybe an Onkyo would save a few bucks but he saw my 663 and liked it. Either way, he won't spend more than what the 663 would cost so that probably limits a Denon solution. Given the same budget he would use on a Bose system and after purchasing a receiver I figure at having about $1625 to play with.

Well, we need to pick out the Left, the Right, and the Center from that money. If we can squeeze a subwoofer in there than that would be good. Now the cheaper the better. And I think "onwall" would be the best bet.

[DD66000]

Ok, I was poking at him a bit and he admitted that the Bose is going to cost 2K so he realizes the numbers he suggested are not going to equate to much. So, he is basically asking me to "put something together" and then he will decide from there.

Personally, I'm not against him getting the bose just to try out in his own home. Listen to them and take them back...that way there is no doubt about how they will sound. Heck, he may love them and then all of this would be for nothing. I don't personally care for Bose but it seems like they make a decent speaker...just over priced for what you get. I just don't think it is the right solution for his room.

Given the same budget he would use on a Bose system and after purchasing a receiver I figure at having about $1625 to play with.

Well, we need to pick out the Left, the Right, and the Center from that money. If we can squeeze a subwoofer in there than that would be good. Now the cheaper the better. And I think "onwall" would be the best bet.
With a huge open room its a total waste of money to buy anything like bose or any kind of small, hold in your hand speakers.
As was mentioned it takes good, fairly large speakers, with good mid-bass drivers to fill that room.
Good size on-walls would be the best way to go, but they are not cheap.

The speakers I would recommend that fit all those requirements are JBL Performance Series PT800 and PC600 center. I have 5 PT800s in a room that is over 6400 cuft. Those speakers are a 3-way with an 8" mid-bass driver.
They can be had for $1050/ea on www.harmanaudio.com under "specials".
Now that is $3k for LCRs, but the sound they produce is nothing short of fabulous. And they will fill that room, completely with great sound. Sometimes they can be found on ebay or elsewhere for a bit less.

Here is a picture of one of my PT800's on-wall. The size is 24" H x 13" W x 6" D
http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii4/hifiguy268/dcp_0007-1.jpg

[ivseenbetter]

Ok, just a refresher regarding the issue here. I am looking for thin speakers to fill a large room (The room is 25 x 23 x 12 high). The only change is that there is more flex in the budget now. I believe I can justify about 2K on the front speakers. Oh, and now I am getting a thumbs up for a subwoofer.

I could start a separate thread regarding the subwoofer but I will just quickly ask in here: What level of subwoofer should I look for? He doesn’t listen to loud music and he really doesn’t watch movies that often either. However, with such a large room I felt the sound from flat speakers would come off hollow without some low end assistance from a sub. With that in mind I figure he doesn’t need an SVS ultra, but a Dayton DIY would probably not be enough. Really I am shooting for around 500-700 on this part.

Finally, I found this link to an article specifically addressing flat panel speakers. Please take a look and let me know if any of these are any better/worse than the ones already suggested:

http://www.electronichouse.com/slideshow/category/5358/822

Oh…and another piece of info that might help…his Adcom seperates setup died (processor quit). Now he wants a “one-box solution”. He is leaning toward the RX-V663 (I think because he has seen mine) and would like to ensure that receiver can push these speakers without an amp. Will that be doable?

Geesh, long posting. Sorry.

[highfigh]

I was just frightened by the fact he was looking at Bose.

In my mind I guess I have to wonder how a speaker that is designed for a small foot print can actually move enough air to fill a very large room. It seems like they would have to work extra hard to do this...and how do speaker companies over come this?

First point- be afraid. Be very afraid!

Second point is directly related to the first- some do it strictly through marketing. Have him go back after measuring the distance from the normal seating location to his speakers and move that far from the Bose "speakers".

Most use computer modeling and listening tests, some have drivers designed especially for their needs and some just use trial and error. To cover specific areas, some speakers are more directional and these are less affected by first reflections.

[bandphan]

Combined with a sub these (http://www.artisonusa.com/artison_005.htm) house the center, and have nice detail. Attach to mostt all flat paanel tvs and look "built in".

[jostenmeat]

Ok, just a refresher regarding the issue here. I am looking for thin speakers to fill a large room (The room is 25 x 23 x 12 high). The only change is that there is more flex in the budget now. I believe I can justify about 2K on the front speakers. Oh, and now I am getting a thumbs up for a subwoofer.

I'd take a look at my first rec in this thread, PSB Synchrony. I haven't heard them, but they are rather slim, and I've only heard good things. There was one poster, who has only posted one single time, but FWIW, this is what he said:
"PSB Synchrony One

I just bought a set, L, R and center. They are awesome. So detailed and sweet, yet will play to thunderous levels. Pipe organ, rock, jazz, vocals, especially female. My brother in law that pays harp, said he has never heard his recordings sound so good before, except of course the real thing...

I have been building my own since the '80's. Dynaudio drivers, Sanders elecdtrontatic etc.

I wonder why didn't buy some before. Nice looking too, and have that nice narrow footprint. I use for critical stereo listening as well as home theater. I"m hearing things I haven't heard before.

B & K video 5 and NAD T163"

I could start a separate thread regarding the subwoofer but I will just quickly ask in here: What level of subwoofer should I look for? He doesn’t listen to loud music and he really doesn’t watch movies that often either. However, with such a large room I felt the sound from flat speakers would come off hollow without some low end assistance from a sub. With that in mind I figure he doesn’t need an SVS ultra, but a Dayton DIY would probably not be enough. Really I am shooting for around 500-700 on this part.

DIY for sure will get you bang for buck. Otherwise, what can we say? Maybe a HSU 3.3 at discount in black for $594? Just one idea of many possible.

Oh…and another piece of info that might help…his Adcom seperates setup died (processor quit). Now he wants a “one-box solution”. He is leaning toward the RX-V663 (I think because he has seen mine) and would like to ensure that receiver can push these speakers without an amp. Will that be doable?

Geesh, long posting. Sorry.

Speakers first.

And, unless you are pretty darn sure about moderate volumes only, I'd look for a beefier amp section, especially with something like I've recommended. Does it HAVE to be all-in-one? Because, I sort of think that the receiver purchase should mostly be focused on features. Any features that are unnecessary can mean dollars saved, which then can be applied to an outboard amp. It doesn't require any more difficulty in usage as long as the receiver acting as pre has a 12v trigger that works in zone 1.

On that note, sure try out the 663... and if it doesn't have enough juice, add an amp. Make sure they don't push it with something like the Synchrony's however.