Why can't I decide?!

[Joe Schmoe]

I currently own two pairs of speakers for stereo (not counting the ones in my HT), and went through many more on the way to acquiring these. One pair are mini-monitors (Cambridge Audio S30s), and the other are smallish floorstanders (Infinity Primus 250s.)

I like both, and enjoy whichever pair I am listening to. Nevertheless, there is inevitably something about the other pair that I miss and think I might like better! As a result, I end up swapping between them at least weekly.

Why can't I make a decision and stick with it?! Can I ever find any speakers that I like well enough to enjoy permanently, without this constant feeling of wanting something different?:eek:

[GlocksRock]

It's because you are an audioholic.

[itschris]

Can I ever find any speakers that I like well enough to enjoy permanently, without this constant feeling of wanting something different?:eek:


Simple answer? No you can't. 90% of the excitement is the pursuit of getting what we want. Once we get it, the next 5% is used up in the first 5 minutes of unboxing, staring, and the first listen of whatever it is we got. The next 3% is used the following morning after we wake and see that it's still there which solidifies the knowledge that "yes... we do have it."

Beyond that, there's a solid 1-2% of ongoing excitement, but even that may be false because I think part of that is the excitement about thinking what we would get next or instead given funds, the green light by the missus, etc.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that we don't like or care about our stuff, it's just that there's always something new that's bigger, brighter, louder, clearer, taller... whatever... that catches our fancy. That's why we can be active members on an a/v forum for months and years talking about the same stuff over and over again.

[Midcow2]

Because, It's the journey not the destination that counts. Also , Most Audioholics tend to be a little bit fickled, picky and insatiable as they pursue the utlimate goal of absolute perfection ;)

[mazersteven]

That's why we can be active members on an a/v forum for months and years talking about the same stuff over and over again.

Very True.

[Seth=L]

Talk to WmAx or Avaserfi, they can get your perfect speaker assembled.

[mazersteven]

pursue the utlimate goal of absolute perfection ;)

"Absolute Perfection" lies within the heart. Because without that, there is only "Diminishing Returns".

[MinusTheBear]

"No speaker is perfect" (irritateguy)

What flaws men try to find in women, you find in speakers. It is part of the sickness of being an audioholic, they say crack is bad on the finances :rolleyes:.

[mazersteven]

(irritateguy)

http://www.hep.ucl.ac.uk/~ytl/personal/images/Shocked.jpg

[Joe Schmoe]

So, I guess the day when I can finally stop spending money on speakers will never arrive?:(

These days, I find myself thinking of trying something "off the beaten path". Perhaps Role Sampans, Duevel Planets, or Ohm Micro Walshes, for example.

[Midcow2]

:D"No speaker is perfect" (irritateguy)

What flaws men try to find in women, you find in speakers. It is part of the sickness of being an audioholic, they say crack is bad on the finances :rolleyes:.

No speaker is perfect ... except in theory and on paper :D

[avaserfi]

Rather than simply relying on a loudspeakers natural response it would perhaps be a superior option, given your complaint, to invest in a DCX2496 and a pair of low resonance, linear loudspeakers with a polar response that matches axial response closely. With this combination you would be able to adjust the loudspeakers response to match your desired tonality exactly. If you are willing to make known your budget, current gear and intended application along side your willingness to use acoustic treatments and/or modify a speaker I would be willing to make such a recommendation based on my previous statement.

As far as the existence of the 'perfect speaker*': As with all other forms of design there are certain compromises that must be made in the design process. That being said there are certainly certain loudspeakers that are superior to others and some are able to achieve near perfection with minimal compromises included in design. Also, the perfect loudspeaker is nothing without an ideally treated room - this such treatment typically results in a subjectively ugly room**.

*My reference to perfection in loudspeaker design is directly related to what credible perceptual research has repeatedly shown as optimal loudspeaker characteristics.

**In a typical home environment approximately 50% of the sound that reaches ones ears is ambient sound that has been effected by the room.

[Joe Schmoe]

Your solution involves knowing what my "desired tonality" is! At this point, I can only listen to speakers and say "I like them" or "I don't like them". Occasionally, I might be able to pin down a few specific reasons.
Also, the things I am looking for often cannot be described in terms of tone, but only in subjective terms like "clarity" or "imaging"

Using my current speakers as examples:

The S30s have some of the most precise imaging I have heard. Soundstage is wide and deep, but lacks height. Vocals and acoustic instruments sound very lifelike, but electric guitar sounds a bit weak. Bass extension is limited, but what there is is exceptionally well-defined. Overall detail is extremely good, especially on complex percussion. Dynamics are good, but not great. As an added bonus, there is a tremendous "wow factor" in hearing so much sound from such tiny cabinets.

The Primuses have very deep, powerful bass, but it can be a tad muddy at times. Soundstage is reasonably deep and wide (though not as much so as the S30s), while height is much better than the S30s. Electric gutars have plenty of bite, and vocals and acoustic instruments are fairly natural, but sometimes exhibit a slightly boxy character. Overall detail is fairly good, but there are subleties I hear on the S30s that I miss on these. Dynamics are right up there with a live concert. No "wow factor" because one expects a big sound from cabinets this size.

[avaserfi]

Your solution involves knowing what my "desired tonality" is! At this point, I can only listen to speakers and say "I like them" or "I don't like them". Occasionally, I might be able to pin down a few specific reasons.

While you, perhaps, do not know what a graph of your preferred tonality looks like this isn't too hard to determine via experimentation when starting from a known, linear, response. This method does take more interaction and time than simply purchasing a speaker, but results have potential to be ideal rather than simply settling for what you could find as best.

Also, the things I am looking for often cannot be described in terms of tone, but only in subjective terms like "clarity" or "imaging"

Such aspects are not subjective, but directly related to measured characteristics of a loudspeaker the room and their interaction.

Clarity is related to various distortions within a loudspeaker from commonly realized issues such as THD to less commonly realized issues such as panel/driver resonance which creates the perceived effect of 'smearing' and colored timbre. Also, aspects clarity have been shown to be increased by having untreated first reflection points if a loudspeaker's behavior properly allows for these conditions, a rarity in the DIY/commercial world.

Imaging directly relates to three primary factors listed in order of effect:

Room interaction - It has been shown through countless perceptual studies that off-axis response with similar magnitude to the axial response increases listening enjoyment in stereophonic situations. This was found to be in part due to increase realism caused by superior imaging. There are however some exemptions to these findings. Any speaker with designed to have off axis dispersion will have terrible imaging if placed within one foot of boundaries in a highly reverberant room.

Symmetry of response - this refers to the frequency and phase of the loudspeakers and effects the perception of being in the center. Symmetry of speaker placement and listener position do play a part in this.

Treble response - Referring to a typical two channel system a slight boost in treble (3dB above 6kHz) will yield perceived 'tighter' imaging with a smaller sweet spot while the same cut will yield wider, but more 'loose' imaging.

[STRONGBADF1]

Hey Joe, (in my best Korean prostitute voice):eek:

From what you have described I'd bet that if you modified the Infinities cabinets and experimented with EQ/location/room treatments you'd be darn close to "perfect", for now, we are Audioholics after all.

What the heck...spend the money so I know whether I right or not!:D

SBF1

[Joe Schmoe]

Hey Joe, (in my best Korean prostitute voice):eek:

From what you have described I'd bet that if you modified the Infinities cabinets and experimented with EQ/location/room treatments you'd be darn close to "perfect", for now, we are Audioholics after all.

What the heck...spend the money so I know whether I right or not!:D

SBF1

EQ would involve adding another component to the playback chain. I don't want to do that because of the potential for degrading the signal, and because the money would be better spent on speakers.

I have tried room treatment, and I got a refund on the panels because they made no difference that I could hear (my room has pretty decent acoustics on its own.)

That leaves cabinet modifications. I might try those if I knew what to do, and if it was something I could do in an apartment, with no workshop, tools, or carpentry skills.

Again, it seems like the money might be better spent on a future speaker upgrade. (And it is probably better to wait and save to give myself more options than to buy what I can afford soon.)

[majorloser]

"No speaker is perfect" (irritateguy)

Wrong forum. Please move along, nothing to see here.

[ParadigmDawg]

Midcow hit it right on the head as I see it , "It's the journey not the destination that counts".

All of us are looking for different endpoints.

Mike- how many subs can fit into a room
Andrew- credible perceptual research
Chris- see above
Joe- no idea what I want
Warp- how many girls can I fit into my room without having to move a sub
StrongBad- I dont care about speakers, where can I find a Korean prostitute
Glocks- Man I love DTs
Steven- I like speakers, I wish I liked women
AccuDT- Look at the specs on this set of speakers
Greg- I just like making fun of things

[bandphan]

EQ would involve adding another component to the playback chain. I don't want to do that because of the potential for degrading the signal, and because the money would be better spent on speakers.



the dcx mentioned will not degrade the sound quality at all;) im invisible:)

[Alex2507]

That leaves cabinet modifications. I might try those if I knew what to do, and if it was something I could do in an apartment, with no workshop, tools, or carpentry skills.



Getting the magnetic shields on the Primus speakers to quit rattling has to be a step in the right direction. Of course you do need a few tools but more importantly you need the will to do it. However once you get those two things, make sure you don't poke a hole in the speaker with the screw driver.

Don't laugh. :D There seem to be a million screws and my mind wanders, screw drivers slip and well, the cone is right there!:eek: You just have to pay attention. I bumped the surround and didn't do any damage but there is always the chance you could break something. :eek:

In case you missed it here's the link to what I did. It shows how limited the required tools really are. If I had it to do over again, I would do one at a time to be able to better compare them.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46286

[speakerman39]

Because, It's the journey not the destination that counts. Also , Most Audioholics tend to be a little bit fickled, picky and insatiable as they pursue the utlimate goal of absolute perfection ;)
Amen there bro. Could not have said it any better myself! ;);)

Cheers,

Phil

[mazersteven]

:eek:.....

[Midcow2]

Amen there bro. Could not have said it any better myself! ;);)

Cheers,

Phil

Phil,

Thanks for your comments and more improtant hope your mom is better!

LOL, whatever, everyone have a great night! :)

[Joe Schmoe]

I am beginning to consider new speakers. There are three possible price levels: $1200, $1600, or $2000/pr (total, including tax and shipping.) Saving for these will require big sacrifices in other areas for 3, 4, or 5 months, respectively.

I don't need a lot of bass (if it were cleaner, the 49Hz -3dB provided by my Primuses would be plenty.) I do prefer small floorstanders to bookshelves, but this is not mandatory. Soundstage/imaging is my top priority.

Auditioning is not an option since I live in OKC.

Possibilities I have considered include Role Audio Sampans, Duevel Planets, Ohm Micro Walshes, Def Tech Mythos Ones, Totem Arros, and a few of the ID brand offerings such as Rockets or Salk Song Towers.

Let the suggestions begin!

[FeisalK]

I suppose JMLab Grande Utopia EMs are out of the question ;D

I'll second the Totem Arros http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/siriusc/avtrs/heart_icon.gif

If there's any speakers I've fallen in love with its the Arros. Slim in body, yet full of voice, not shrill not bloated, with lots of warmth and clarity. http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/siriusc/avtrs/heart_icon.gif http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/siriusc/avtrs/heart_icon.gif http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/siriusc/avtrs/heart_icon.gif

I'd also recommend putting Paradigms on your listening list. I've used Paradigms for ages all over the house :D

[bandphan]

I am beginning to consider new speakers. There are three possible price levels: $1200, $1600, or $2000/pr (total, including tax and shipping.) Saving for these will require big sacrifices in other areas for 3, 4, or 5 months, respectively.

I don't need a lot of bass (if it were cleaner, the 49Hz -3dB provided by my Primuses would be plenty.) I do prefer small floorstanders to bookshelves, but this is not mandatory. Soundstage/imaging is my top priority.

Auditioning is not an option since I live in OKC.

Possibilities I have considered include Role Audio Sampans, Duevel Planets, Ohm Micro Walshes, Def Tech Mythos Ones, Totem Arros, and a few of the ID brand offerings such as Rockets or Salk Song Towers.

Let the suggestions begin!

this should be a sticky for all the new members:D

[Davemcc]

Salk Song Towers.



Salk will take them back if you are not happy with them. But that's never, ever happened so it looks like a safe bet to me.

[Joe Schmoe]

After another extensive round of A/B/Cing between my Primus 250s, Cambridge S30s, and Def Tech BP8Bs last night, I have reached a counterintuitive conclusion: It may be that I simply don't like powerful bass! On the larger speakers, acoustic bass in a jazz setting (eg Norah Jones) has the kind of "slam" that I associate with rock, which seems quite unnatural. The same material on the minimonitors sounds more "right" to me.
The S30s also reproduce synth-bass (eg Goldfrapp) in a way that is clearly audible but does not overpower the other frequencies or cause objects in the room to rattle (as the bigger speakers often do.)

If I really don't like big-speaker bass, then this will save me some money since I can focus on good, small bookshelves. Frankly, though, I don't know if I can do better than the S30s in that size range. (Certainly the B&W 705s that I tried once did not sound better to me, and they are $1500/pr!)

[Davemcc]

Joe, if you haven't heard a pair of transmission line speakers, you are missing a huge treat for the ears. From the ones that I've heard, the bass is so smooth and natural it's uncanny. It's a much different animal than your normal forward firing driver.

I haven't heard the Songtowers, but I very much want to because the thought of a really good tweeter in a well-constructed cabinet with a transmission line design sounds like the ideal combination. I have a feeling it's exactly what you're looking for.

[Warpdrv]

Midcow hit it right on the head as I see it , "It's the journey not the destination that counts".

All of us are looking for different endpoints.

Mike- how many subs can fit into a room
Andrew- credible perceptual research
Chris- see above
Joe- no idea what I want
Warp- how many girls can I fit into my room without having to move a sub
StrongBad- I dont care about speakers, where can I find a Korean prostitute
Glocks- Man I love DTs
Steven- I like speakers, I wish I liked women
AccuDT- Look at the specs on this set of speakers
Greg- I just like making fun of things


HAHHAHAHA I nearly wet my pants when I read this...

Sums up the group fairly accurately... !!!! :)

[Joe Schmoe]

Joe, if you haven't heard a pair of transmission line speakers, you are missing a huge treat for the ears.

The Def Techs are a transmission-line design.

[Davemcc]

The Def Techs are a transmission-line design.

Yes, no, maybe? According to DT's website:

"Definitive Technology's engineers have developed, with the aid of a supercomputer at a major Eastern university, a new bass tuning program which basically duplicates the loading of a transmission line (in terms of extended bass response and ideal transient behavior) in a much more elegant and cost-effective cabinet construction."

I can't speak to DT's cabinet construction but it appears that they are trying very hard to mimic a transmission line design without actually constructing one. If you like the DT's ersatz TL design, maybe you would absolutely love the real thing.

[mazersteven]

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/siriusc/avtrs/heart_icon.gif http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/siriusc/avtrs/heart_icon.gif http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/siriusc/avtrs/heart_icon.gif http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y234/siriusc/avtrs/heart_icon.gif


Whats with the girlie hearts? :cool:

[mazersteven]

Steven- I like speakers, I wish I liked women

HAHHAHAHA I nearly wet my pants when I read this...
Sums up the group fairly accurately... !!!! :)

http://www.aaronmartini.com/2animation/tazmaniandevil2.gif

I'll give you accurately. :mad:

[FeisalK]

Whats with the girlie hearts? :cool:

heh

Not everyone who's heard Totem Arros feels that way tho

[Joe Schmoe]

If you like the DT's ersatz TL design, maybe you would absolutely love the real thing.

It is not that I like the DT's bass (for music, it is fine for HT.) It is that their design is supposed to be indistinguishable from a TL, and yet I don't find it natural-sounding. This suggests that I might not like a "real" TL any better.
I lean more towards the conclusion I stated above, that perhaps I simply don't like the type of bass floorstanders produce, and that I am more of a bookshelf kind of guy.

[gus6464]

After another extensive round of A/B/Cing between my Primus 250s, Cambridge S30s, and Def Tech BP8Bs last night, I have reached a counterintuitive conclusion: It may be that I simply don't like powerful bass! On the larger speakers, acoustic bass in a jazz setting (eg Norah Jones) has the kind of "slam" that I associate with rock, which seems quite unnatural. The same material on the minimonitors sounds more "right" to me.
The S30s also reproduce synth-bass (eg Goldfrapp) in a way that is clearly audible but does not overpower the other frequencies or cause objects in the room to rattle (as the bigger speakers often do.)

If I really don't like big-speaker bass, then this will save me some money since I can focus on good, small bookshelves. Frankly, though, I don't know if I can do better than the S30s in that size range. (Certainly the B&W 705s that I tried once did not sound better to me, and they are $1500/pr!)

I bet that it's not the powerful bass that you dislike, but boomy bass which exists on a lot of the lower end speakers. The Cambridge are a British speaker after all, and from the review I read they said it was a forward speaker like most British designs. British speakers give out that sense of good bass when they actually don't go lower than the rest. I noticed this immediately when I was A/B'ing my Epos ELS-3 with my Dali Ikon2 and my friend's B&W 685.

I have heard a pair of the cheaper Spendor and they also exhibit this characteristic. I say just get a pair of somewhat neutral speakers like the B&W 805S and just EQ your way to your desired sound. Also EQ devices like the Behringer DCX2496 are as transparent as they come so they will not affect the signal whatsoever. It is a very popular unit used in active designs like the Emerald Physics CS2.

[gus6464]

It is not that I like the DT's bass (for music, it is fine for HT.) It is that their design is supposed to be indistinguishable from a TL, and yet I don't find it natural-sounding. This suggests that I might not like a "real" TL any better.
I lean more towards the conclusion I stated above, that perhaps I simply don't like the type of bass floorstanders produce, and that I am more of a bookshelf kind of guy.

The key word there is "supposed". I have heard mostly all DT's and their sound is anything but natural. I don't think there are any people out there that use DT's for a 2ch only system.

[Rickster71]

Whats with the girlie hearts? :cool:

Steven- I like speakers, I wish I liked women


Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[3db]

I am beginning to consider new speakers. There are three possible price levels: $1200, $1600, or $2000/pr (total, including tax and shipping.) Saving for these will require big sacrifices in other areas for 3, 4, or 5 months, respectively.

I don't need a lot of bass (if it were cleaner, the 49Hz -3dB provided by my Primuses would be plenty.) I do prefer small floorstanders to bookshelves, but this is not mandatory. Soundstage/imaging is my top priority.

Auditioning is not an option since I live in OKC.

Possibilities I have considered include Role Audio Sampans, Duevel Planets, Ohm Micro Walshes, Def Tech Mythos Ones, Totem Arros, and a few of the ID brand offerings such as Rockets or Salk Song Towers.

Let the suggestions begin!

If auditioning is not an option, what criteria are you using to judge the speakers by?

[Joe Schmoe]

If auditioning is not an option, what criteria are you using to judge the speakers by?

Mostly how interesting they look, the descriptions on the websites, and reviews (including here.) I won't try any that I can't return.

What we have here in OKC is Circuit City, Best Buy (without Magnolia), Ultimate Electronics, and a B&W dealer. That's it.

[Joe Schmoe]

If I truly do decide that I am satisfied with small bookshelves (time will tell), then it opens up a lot of options for me. There are a ton of bookshelves for under $1000/pr that look really nice.

[speakerman39]

Phil,

Thanks for your comments and more improtant hope your mom is better!

LOL, whatever, everyone have a great night! :)
Hey, sorry I missed this post. Been a rough couple of days. Anyways, thanks so much for asking. Right now my Mom is not doing too well. Beginning to think something is wrong. She has also been acting a bit strange. I am on top of it. Just hate to see her suffer and yet be so powerless to do much. It just kills me. :(:(

Cheers,

Phil

[3db]

Hey, sorry I missed this post. Been a rough couple of days. Anyways, thanks so much for asking. Right now my Mom is not doing too well. Beginning to think something is wrong. She has also been acting a bit strange. I am on top of it. Just hate to see her suffer and yet be so powerless to do much. It just kills me. :(:(

Cheers,

Phil

Hang in there. I'm going thru the same thing right now and I live 800 miles away from mine mother. I feel your pain.

[Joe Schmoe]

Cambridge has resolved my issue.
The S30s have always been tantalizingly, frustratingly close to "perfect". Their only limitations are bass and dynamics.
Now Cambridge has introduced the S70s, which are floorstanders with the same drivers and the same cabinet dimensions except for height.
If these sound exactly like the S30s except with better bass extension and dynamics, they could well prove to be the ultimate speakers.:)
I don't know what the pricing will be, since they won't be available until mid October. I have already started saving up for them!

[GlocksRock]

That's good news, hopefully you will be very happy with them once they finally arrive.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hey, sorry I missed this post. Been a rough couple of days. Anyways, thanks so much for asking. Right now my Mom is not doing too well. Beginning to think something is wrong. She has also been acting a bit strange. I am on top of it. Just hate to see her suffer and yet be so powerless to do much. It just kills me. :(:(

Cheers,

Phil

Sorry to hear about your mother.

I feel your pain, man!

I wish no one would ever have to suffer or even be sick.

I went through a somewhat similar situation with my grandmother. I makes me feel 100% helpless and it sucks.

It just sucks. There's no other way to say it.

I think this audio hobby that we have helps to relieve some of our stress and depression in life. It's not much, but it's something. I guess that's why I don't mind spending some money on this hobby.

[jostenmeat]

Hey Joe,

Forgive me, because I haven't kept tabs on this thread. But, what is your budget?

Have you considered Ascend Acoustics? Does your budget reach into the Sierra-1 category?

I ask because I was very impressed with their cheapest speaker, and so I can only imagine what their best speaker must be like. IIRC, the Sierra's have a lot of bass response.

ok, just googled audioholic's review: the only con in the summary is perhaps too much bass?!

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/ascend-acoustics-sierra-1

if that is too much money, id be curious about the 340's . . . good luck . . .

[Joe Schmoe]

Hey Joe,

Forgive me, because I haven't kept tabs on this thread. But, what is your budget?

Have you considered Ascend Acoustics? Does your budget reach into the Sierra-1 category?

I ask because I was very impressed with their cheapest speaker, and so I can only imagine what their best speaker must be like. IIRC, the Sierra's have a lot of bass response.

ok, just googled audioholic's review: the only con in the summary is perhaps too much bass?!

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/ascend-acoustics-sierra-1

if that is too much money, id be curious about the 340's . . . good luck . . .

My budget is a function of time. The longer I wait, the more I can spend. The Sierras would be reachable within a couple of months if I save.
I am going to try the new Cambridge S70s before I try anything else, though. Hopefully, they will have the same clean bass as the S30s, just deeper. (If they turn out to be boomy like the other towers in my room, however, then I may just stick with the S30s and call it good.)

[maxlong]

Joe why did you give up on your B&W 705 that you used to rave about.

[Joe Schmoe]

Joe why did you give up on your B&W 705 that you used to rave about.

That was so long ago that I had practically forgotten about them!
All I remember is that the initial thrill wore off. I eventually sold them, because I didn't think they were "special" enough to justify their extremely high price. I would probably consider them great $500/pr speakers.

(By the way, it says you only have 4 posts. How would you know about discussions from a couple of years ago?)

[jostenmeat]

Joe,

I still vote for Ascends. I'm pretty familiar with B&Ws, the 600s, 700s, 800s. Even the 170 SE, IMO, is more clear than the 700 series from the mids on up, better soundstage and imaging too IMO, and for only $350. Granted, I heard them in different rooms. The lengthiest audition I gave 700s was with Rotel electronics, and the dealer left me alone to swap out speakers for myself. Also auditioned Quad at the time. I was using a 6 cd auditioning array.

Regarding 170's, its the bass articulation that left me wanting, but in context of what you are getting for the money . . .

This is why I often say that I would love to hear the Sierra's.

[Joe Schmoe]

Joe,

I still vote for Ascends. I'm pretty familiar with B&Ws, the 600s, 700s, 800s. Even the 170 SE, IMO, is more clear than the 700 series from the mids on up, better soundstage and imaging too IMO, and for only $350. Granted, I heard them in different rooms. The lengthiest audition I gave 700s was with Rotel electronics, and the dealer left me alone to swap out speakers for myself. Also auditioned Quad at the time. I was using a 6 cd auditioning array.

Regarding 170's, its the bass articulation that left me wanting, but in context of what you are getting for the money . . .

This is why I often say that I would love to hear the Sierra's.


Something like what you are describing is what happened to me with the B&Ws. I was impressed enough with their 600 series bookshelves that I thought "I would love the 700s", so I traded up and was disappointed.
My $220/pr Cambridge S30s sound better that I remember the 705s sounding, but of course audio memory is notoriously unreliable. It would be interesting to A/B them.
I may eventually try something by Ascend. Certainly they get rave reviews.

[speakerman39]

Sorry to hear about your mother.

I feel your pain, man!

I wish no one would ever have to suffer or even be sick.

I went through a somewhat similar situation with my grandmother. I makes me feel 100% helpless and it sucks.

It just sucks. There's no other way to say it.

I think this audio hobby that we have helps to relieve some of our stress and depression in life. It's not much, but it's something. I guess that's why I don't mind spending some money on this hobby.

Hey, I really appreciate your kind words my friend. Really like how you summed it all up. I honestly could not agree with you more. At least, it is for me. The sad part is, al of the appointments are going to kill her faster than the chemo and the radiation combined. Heck, it is wearing me out taking her to all of them. Just can't even begin to imagine how she honestly feels. You are correct-it just sucks and I am powerless to do much about it. :(:(

Cheers,

Phil

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Hey, I really appreciate your kind words my friend. Really like how you summed it all up. I honestly could not agree with you more. At least, it is for me. The sad part is, al of the appointments are going to kill her faster than the chemo and the radiation combined. Heck, it is wearing me out taking her to all of them. Just can't even begin to imagine how she honestly feels. You are correct-it just sucks and I am powerless to do much about it. :(:(

Cheers,

Phil

Sounds like you are doing a good job holding it together.

I'm a total disaster (at least inside) when it comes to these personal tragedies.

Sometimes I wonder if the best thing we can do for the people we love is to just pretend that we are strong and brave. I think for them to feel that we can still be strong after they leave us is one good feeling for them to hold on to.

[mazersteven]

Joe,

I still vote for Ascends. I'm pretty familiar with B&Ws, the 600s, 700s, 800s. Even the 170 SE, IMO, is more clear than the 700 series from the mids on up, better soundstage and imaging too IMO, and for only $350. Granted, I heard them in different rooms. The lengthiest audition I gave 700s was with Rotel electronics, and the dealer left me alone to swap out speakers for myself. Also auditioned Quad at the time. I was using a 6 cd auditioning array.

Regarding 170's, its the bass articulation that left me wanting, but in context of what you are getting for the money . . .

This is why I often say that I would love to hear the Sierra's.

Jostenmeat,

If your familiar with the B&W 805's. You should some day give the Dana 630 a listen to.

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/product_info.php/p/dana-630/products_id/32

http://www.theaudioinsider.com/images/630%20cherry%20356p.jpg

[speakerman39]

Sounds like you are doing a good job holding it together.

I'm a total disaster (at least inside) when it comes to these personal tragedies.

Sometimes I wonder if the best thing we can do for the people we love is to just pretend that we are strong and brave. I think for them to feel that we can still be strong after they leave us is one good feeling for them to hold on to.
Yeah, I am doing my best in holding it together. Guess, in a way I am pretending because to be candid here I am very scared. My Mom is my BEST friend and always has been. It is times like this I wish I wasn't single. Oh well, I will make it some way some how. Thanks once again for your kind words my friend. It really is much appreciated.

Cheers,

Phil

[Joe Schmoe]

I am really starting to lean more and more toward just keeping the S30s and enjoying them. The more time I spend with them, the better I like them.
When I catch myself thinking I want more bass, I just have to remember how boomy all the bigger speakers I have tried sounded in my room. (Besides, the S30s passed my "bass torture test" with flying colors. This included Radioaxiom by Bill Laswell, Mezzanine by Massive Attack, and Halloween by Manneheim Steamroller.)
This choice would certainly save me some money!

[Joe Schmoe]

Listened to the S30s all weekend. I am going to sell the Primuses. If I ever get bigger speakers, they will be the new Cambridge towers. (They are also bringing a matching sub to market, which is a third viable otion.)
Part of me wishes I could get a good price for the Def Techs in my HT, so that I could replace them with a Cambridge (or Mordaunt Short) setup as well. That is how great the S30s sound!

[Joe Schmoe]

Flip-flopping again! Part of me has started missing the Infinities. At first, I thought it was just a matter of bass (so that adding a sub might solve it.) I have come to realize, however, that I also miss the stronger vertical component of imaging, the more lifelike dynamic range, and what I can only describe as a "bigger" sound.
The tradeoff is that the more powerful bass can be too much with some material, making it boomy in my room. I wonder if it would work to take a cue from B&W and plug the ports with something semi-permeable (foam rubber, perhaps)?

[3db]

Joe

Whats the point of this thread? :confused: All I see is you flip flopping around trying to decide, get lots of user input, select a speaker and repeat the exercise all over again. It appears that you're trolling for posts.

[Joe Schmoe]

Joe

Whats the point of this thread? :confused: All I see is you flip flopping around trying to decide, get lots of user input, select a speaker and repeat the exercise all over again. It appears that you're trolling for posts.

What's the point of your post?
Yes, I am flip-flopping. That was the point of the thread, to ponder why I can't make a permanent decision.
If you are going to bother responding, at least address the specific question I asked: Would plugging the ports limit bass output, thus improving my in-room performance, or not?

[gus6464]

What's the point of your post?
Yes, I am flip-flopping. That was the point of the thread, to ponder why I can't make a permanent decision.
If you are going to bother responding, at least address the specific question I asked: Would plugging the ports limit bass output, thus improving my in-room performance, or not?

Or you could just sell all the speakers you got and save a bit in order to buy some better speakers. A speaker will either do what you want or not. Trying to convince yourself otherwise is not the way to go. Placebo effect anyone? :rolleyes:

[Joe Schmoe]

Or you could just sell all the speakers you got and save a bit in order to buy some better speakers.

At this point, I only have two pairs of speakers (not counting the ones in my HT, which I have been 100% satisfied with for many years.) The bigger ones can only be sold to a local buyer, because shipping would be prohibitive. I would be surprised if I could get more than $250 total for both pairs, which definitely would not buy anything better.

[bandphan]

What's the point of your post?
Yes, I am flip-flopping. That was the point of the thread, to ponder why I can't make a permanent decision.
If you are going to bother responding, at least address the specific question I asked: Would plugging the ports limit bass output, thus improving my in-room performance, or not?

If you would invest a little time and very little money in mapping out your rooms response, you could then make descisions based on a speakers abilities:confused: IIRC someone has mentioned to try REW in the past;) BTW am i invisible:eek:

note--edit-- the point off selling the speakers is to apply the money twords better ones that cost more than 250 not equal to.

[Joe Schmoe]

BTW am i invisible:eek:


You have been invisible for months. Today, I decided to try taking you off of ignore, in case you said something useful instead of the rudeness that landed you there. Fortunately, you did (in theory.) Not sure how useful it could be to me, though. I know nothing about mapping room response, plus I own neither a dB meter nor a PC.
I am also not sure how it would help. I have tried more than half a dozen different floorstanders (and three different subs), and none sound good in my room. Apparently, I have only two basic options: Either use bookshelves and accept the relative lack of bass and dynamics, or put up with boomy bass.
The only third possibility I can see is the one I mentioned earlier: use floorstanders but attenuate the bass response.

[gus6464]

At this point, I only have two pairs of speakers (not counting the ones in my HT, which I have been 100% satisfied with for many years.) The bigger ones can only be sold to a local buyer, because shipping would be prohibitive. I would be surprised if I could get more than $250 total for both pairs, which definitely would not buy anything better.

What I meant by selling everything was in order to save up and buy a lot better speakers than the ones you own. Not sell everything you got and still buy another pair of $250 speakers. Save around $1500-$2000 and you will be surprised at what you can get in the used market. Hell for $1500 you could easily land yourself a used pair of Usher Tiny Dancers. The gear you would need to measure your room response would be a Behringer DCM8000 mic and something along the lines of an e-mu 0404 external USB sound card with built-in mixer.

[Joe Schmoe]

The gear you would need to measure your room response would be a Behringer DCM8000 mic and something along the lines of an e-mu 0404 external USB sound card with built-in mixer.

...and a PC.

(Note: at my current rate of spending, saving $2000 would take 10-12 months!)

[gus6464]

...and a PC.

(Note: at my current rate of spending, saving $2000 would take 10-12 months!)

Small price to pay for better sound. Trying to convince yourself which two mediocre speakers are better that will never achieve what you want anyway is like endless masturbation without a happy ending.

[Joe Schmoe]

Small price to pay for better sound. Trying to convince yourself which two mediocre speakers are better that will never achieve what you want anyway is like endless masturbation without a happy ending.

Oh, I agree that the Primuses are mediocre. The Cambridge S30s, however, are merely small (with the physical limitations that that implies.) They are as good as any speakers their size on the market, at any price.

[bandphan]

Oh, I agree that the Primuses are mediocre. The Cambridge S30s, however, are merely small (with the physical limitations that that implies.) They are as good as any speakers their size on the market, at any price.
While they are good speakers, to make that statement is highly subjèctive and would be based on you hearing every speaker made in that class.

[Joe Schmoe]

While they are good speakers, to make that statement is highly subjèctive and would be based on you hearing every speaker made in that class.

I have heard many, including several that are drastically more expensive than the S30s. (Among them the highly reviewed B&W CM1s, which cost more than 4X as much and do not sound as good.)

[gus6464]

I have heard many, including several that are drastically more expensive than the S30s. (Among them the highly reviewed B&W CM1s, which cost more than 4X as much and do not sound as good.)

CM1's aren't all that. And also no speaker that small will give you decent bass. You are in the end comparing british speakers that tend to emphasize the mids and put out that sound of conceived bass when there actually isn't any. Run a 40Hz test tone through your S30's and measure the SPL. I used to have a pair of Epos ELS-3 which sounded like they were putting out good bass but after running test tones, 50Hz was barely audible.

Go out and listen to speakers which have less of a house sound and are voiced more towards accuracy. Go and listen to some Revel, Dynaudio, and higher end PSB (Platinum).

[bandphan]

http://www.pmc-speakers.com/product.php?mode=view&pid=171&&show=spec take a peak at this speaker

[maxlong]

I have heard many, including several that are drastically more expensive than the S30s. (Among them the highly reviewed B&W CM1s, which cost more than 4X as much and do not sound as good.)
I don't think the CM1's are nearly as good as the 685s and they cost less.

[mazersteven]

http://www.pmc-speakers.com/product.php?mode=view&pid=171&&show=spec take a peak at this speaker

Fantastic speaker. :D

[Joe Schmoe]

Plugging the ports on the Primus 250s did not work, or rather it worked too well. Instead of attenuating the bass, it eliminated it.
I realized last night that they sound good with most material most of the time. It is only on unusually bass-heavy passages that they become boomy, and I can live with that as a tradeoff for their many positive qualities. (Besides, this boominess is clerly a property of the room, not the speakers, since it occurs with all floorstanders.)

If I do decide to get new speakers at some point (by no means a certainty), then I might look for the smallest high-quality floorstanders I can find. (Totems are no longer an option because they stopped shipping them, and there have never been local dealers.)

The PMCs look nice,by the way, but Oklahoma is not even on their distribution map!