B&W or What?

[usfscaptain14]

I'm about to embark on a major spending spree which im sure i'll regret when the bill's come. What I've learned from this site is to make the speakkers the priority. With that heres where Im at.

I want a 7.1 system for movies in Blu Ray. But I want to also listen to everything from Classical to Metallica. I'm going to start with purchasing the main's and then complete the 7.1 ...

The room is 500sqft it's 20x23x8. My inital thought was to go with Axiom 80's but Now I'm leaning on B&W"S. I have not the time to audition speakers so I will make this desicion based on research and advice.

I'll start with this.

1. What B&W main will allow for great performance for all types of music and perform great in a 7.1 set up?

[jamie2112]

I would have to say go out and listen to many different B&Ws as they all sound great. I love my B&Ws and they are an investment for sure as they are not cheap. Just go listen and you will find what you are looking for.

[usfscaptain14]

That will not be an option. I live to far from any decent stores and my work schedule is crazy.

[jamie2112]

Well then I guess you should look at the 800 series and pick out something from that range as to my ears they are the best B&W series. All the B&Ws that i have listened to move air and sound great from classical to metal and everything in between. You should know the B&Ws like lots of power. Not that they don't sound great with your average receiver but add an amp and they sing man. Best of luck to you...

[EJ1]

You can't go wrong with B&W in my book. Amazing sounding speakers and aesthetically pleasing. You've got a PM btw.

[fredk]

Its a tough call when you can't audition. Have you checked out the 'hearing things' forum at Axiom to see if there is somebody close by that will give you an audition?

The Axiom M60 is very close in sound to the B&W 701 at a much more favourable price. I'm not sure where the M80 fits in. The nice thing about Axiom is that the QS8 is an exceptional surround speaker.

Can you return the B&Ws if you really don't like them?

Fred

[Sheep]

Its a tough call when you can't audition. Have you checked out the 'hearing things' forum at Axiom to see if there is somebody close by that will give you an audition?

The Axiom M60 is very close in sound to the B&W 701 at a much more favourable price. I'm not sure where the M80 fits in. The nice thing about Axiom is that the QS8 is an exceptional surround speaker.

Can you return the B&Ws if you really don't like them?

Fred

Where did you hear this?

SheepStar

[AdrianMills]

You should know the B&Ws like lots of power. Not that they don't sound great with your average receiver but add an amp and they sing man.

Seriously people! I so wish people would stop posting such utter drivel!

The older B&W series like your Matrix were heavier to drive for sure but even so, B&W do not need any more power than your average 8ohm, 90dB sensitivity speaker. And like your and any other average 8ohm, 90dB sensitivity speaker, the power they need will depend on how loud you want them to go, how big and lively your room is, and how far you sit from them.

[usfscaptain14]

So a pioneer 94thx or a Yammy 1800 would be fine for running 704's in my situation?

[EJ1]

So a pioneer 94thx or a Yammy 1800 would be fine for running 704's in my situation?
B&W recommends 50-150W for the 704's and the Pioneer is rated at 140W so I think you would be fine.

[WmAx]

If you are serious about wanting a true high-fidelity system, and for a reasonable budget, you need to forget many of the conventional recommendations. Number 1 realization: you need to realize most recommendations are based upon COLORED/DISTORTED speakers and how such color/distortion might fit with a person's preference(s). This is a dead end approach to selection, and will only result in a system that is somewhat close to what one likes, and with no real way to modify it or adjust precisely to your true ideals.

For highest performance for your budget, you need the most neutral speakers with the most inert cabinet systems(which are a major source of timbre distortion/coloration) that will within your budget. In addition, you need DSP loudspeaker management hardware that will allow you to precisely control/adjust the neutral speakers to obtain any sound you so desire. I know this sounds expensive, but it really is comparable to the price many pay for mediocre systems based around mediocre colored/distorted speakers such as the Axioms referenced in this thread.

I'll go into more detail if you are truly interested.

-Chris

[jamie2112]

Oh I am sorry Adrian I didn't mean to upset you. I didn't say that B&W wouldn't be fine with a regular receiver. All I said was they like power. If you do not agree than you must be listening at low volumes. I hooked up a 250 watt a channel acurus amp to the 804s and the 602s and both took on a whole new sound. Meaning" the power amp made them sing " as compared to 110 watts a channel denon 3802. Yes it is true that B&W don't NEED more power than other 8ohm speakers but they also sound 100 percent better with more power.That being said I still think B&W are the best speakers out there for MY ears.

[Joe Schmoe]

The B&Ws comparable in price to the Axioms would be the 600 series. This is also their best bang/buck line. The others are better if price is no object, but a lot more expensive.

[AdrianMills]

Oh I am sorry Adrian I didn't mean to upset you. I didn't say that B&W wouldn't be fine with a regular receiver. All I said was they like power. If you do not agree than you must be listening at low volumes. I hooked up a 250 watt a channel acurus amp to the 804s and the 602s and both took on a whole new sound. Meaning" the power amp made them sing " as compared to 110 watts a channel denon 3802. Yes it is true that B&W don't NEED more power than other 8ohm speakers but they also sound 100 percent better with more power.That being said I still think B&W are the best speakers out there for MY ears.

Dude, "upset" is a little strong ;)

As for your comment on me listening at low volumes I'll quote what I said earlier;


like your and any other average 8ohm, 90dB sensitivity speaker, the power they need will depend on how loud you want them to go, how big and lively your room is, and how far you sit from them.


If I remember correctly my denon has driven my 804S to 98dB peaks at 3M with a master volume of -12; at least it was no more than -10 as I've set my receiver to limit the volume to max -10. I'd put money on it that I could reach peaks of 105dB @ 3m too. And you know what 105dB is don't you?

And guess what, if I had a 250W amp, yes I could go louder by maybe 3dB but at 105dB it would sound exactly the same as my receiver. Want to bet?

Now, if you think that is a "low volume" I'd like to disagree.

BTW, I'm still amazed that there are people out there that still haven't got it that unless you double blind or at the very least single blind test, statements like, "I hooked up a 250 watt a channel acurus amp to the 804s and the 602s and both took on a whole new sound. Meaning" the power amp made them sing " as compared to 110 watts a channel denon 3802" are absolutely meaningless as far as comparing amps is concerned.

And yes, I agree that B&W have some of the best sounding speakers out there.

[usfscaptain14]

wmax, please be my guest and elaborate....

[Demonster]

wmax, please be my guest and elaborate....

I second the notion! I am in the same quandry and only through an obsesive amount of reading the many forums out there have I begun to rule out the axioms which were y forst choice on reviews only - then they all started to sound the same. But without the same amount of work and obsesive reading I am not sure that any of the other choices are any better?!?!!!!!!! Do they have a thread out there like this one if you are looking for speakers?

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11

This realy helped me pick the subs out based upon my preferences for home theater - and based upon my previous budget I can get 3-4 castles or 2conquests and double or quadruple the fun.

[usfscaptain14]

Demonster, Awesome read thank you! That is exactly what I need to see to help me muddle through the opinions and bias reviews. I'm now one peice down on my list. That really helped me decide What sub I want. Now I still need my mains and surrounds and Reciever.

Jason

[usfscaptain14]

WmAx or Adrian,

Would you care to giive an educated opinion about the 704's or B&W's in general for my purpose staed in the first post?

Thanks!
Jason

[AdrianMills]

WmAx or Adrian,

Would you care to giive an educated opinion about the 704's or B&W's in general for my purpose staed in the first post?

Thanks!
Jason

The 704 are relatively nice speakers but I didn't like them enough to want to buy them. In fact I wouldn't buy any of the B&W that didn't have FST drivers; I think there are a bunch of FST based B&W speakers now that are similarly priced or cheaper than the 704. You pay a lot for the cabinet design in the 700 series. The 703 is much nicer though and sounds very similar to the 804S.

I would never recommend that you buy speakers without first auditioning unless you have the possibility of returning them.

[WmAx]

wmax, please be my guest and elaborate....

Put primary effort into acquisition of the most neutral speakers you can afford in the budget. People like to often tell you to go listen, but this has no gain as compared to my suggestion, when the speakers in question are standard monpolar radiation pattern with other standard features, and credible 3rd party analysis can verify measured performance of sufficient data points. In fact, following my method, you can end up with something that better fits your preference, since you get to have direct control over this variable. The primary thing differing between most speakers is the frequency response. Usually, you are merely picking speakers based on this primary aspect. There are other, extremely important considerations, but not many speakers actually have substantial advantages over one another in these areas. Two such very important, but rarely exploited areas of meaningful improvement are: (1) low resonance cabinets (2) off axis response closely resembling off axis response.

The best speakers of which I am aware, overall, for a budget oriented system, are the Ascend Seirra 1 and B&W 705, with the 705 having superior over-all linearity. Both have somewhat lower resonance cabinets than most other speakers in their class. The 705 would be the ideal here, but it does cost 2x more than the Sierra, which compromises somewhat in overall linearity. But both are linear enough to be used successfully when paired with a loudspeaker management system. If further savings are needed, one can inject a little elbow grease, and purchase a speaker with superb linearity such as the Ascend CBM-170(on par with the B&W 705 in this regard) that sells for a very low price($350/pair). The problem here is the cabinet is highly resonant, just like most speaker systems. Cabinet resonance causes a coloration on all sounds played through the speaker - thus is a form of distortion. You can, if you are up to some work, you can modify the internals of such a speaker as the CBM-170, and end up with a highly linear speaker with very low resonance cabinet for very low cost. I can elaborate if requested to do so.

A high precision loudspeaker management system allows for one to control with high precision, the frequency response(one of the main differentiators among common speakers), using various filter functions. The management system also allows for custom, variable crossover types/rates/points in order to ideally integrate sub woofers seamlessly, but ideally, you need to use stereo subwoofers as opposed to mono, due to the ideal 1/2 wavelength or closer distance related to crossover frequency, required for optimal integration of two sound sources. The Behringer DCX2496 is the lowest priced management system suitable for hi-fidelity purposes(no noise, distortion or other artifacts when used properly).

In order to use a loudspeaker management system as suggested above, you need to have a way to insert it between the pre-amp and amplifier stages. Most recievers have no such facility. However, you can use many recievers as fine qualty pre-amps and feed outboard amplifiers, inserting the management system between these two points. You can also opt to purchase seperate surround pre-amp/selector unit such as Emotiva offers. However, many recievers have fine quality pre-amp sections, and offer superior HDMI abilities(conversion between video connections, upscaling, etc.).

-Chris

[Joe Schmoe]

I don't get the emphasis on neutrality. What I look for is speakers that sound good to me. If they turn out to be colored, so be it. As for "frequency management", that places yet another electronic circuit (and hence another veil) between me and the music. This is why I use direct mode, to bypass as much circuitry as possible.

[mouettus]

I don't get the emphasis on neutrality. What I look for is speakers that sound good to me. If they turn out to be colored, so be it. As for "frequency management", that places yet another electronic circuit (and hence another veil) between me and the music. This is why I use direct mode, to bypass as much circuitry as possible.

I agree with you. Sound neutrality is sometimes as boring as a flat beer.

[WmAx]

I don't get the emphasis on neutrality. What I look for is speakers that sound good to me. If they turn out to be colored, so be it. As for "frequency management", that places yet another electronic circuit (and hence another veil) between me and the music. This is why I use direct mode, to bypass as much circuitry as possible.

The emphasis in neutrality is because, only when starting with a neutral speaker, can you then apply coloration exactly to your preference in a later stage. With a non-neutral speaker, the pre-existing colorations are going to prevent you from adjusting the speaker to your exact preference(s). You don't like neutrality sound? No big deal; the method I suggest allows you to apply coloration where and exactly how much that you desire. You normally are forced to live with the built-in coloration(s) of a speaker system. I make a suggestion on how to put control of that coloration in your hands.

To avoid such a management system because you think the electronics 'veil' something is nothing more than paranoia; it certainly is not supported by any credible evidence of which I'm aware. You would have to have a poorly designed or defective circuit in order to produce audibly negative effects.

-Chris

[Midcow2]

Seriously people! I so wish people would stop posting such utter drivel!

The older B&W series like your Matrix were heavier to drive for sure but even so, B&W do not need any more power than your average 8ohm, 90dB sensitivity speaker. And like your and any other average 8ohm, 90dB sensitivity speaker, the power they need will depend on how loud you want them to go, how big and lively your room is, and how far you sit from them.

The sensitivity measurement is how much power it takes to drive a speaker to produce the same SPL (Sound Pressure levle). Basically all speakers with a sensitivity of 90dB will require the same power.

However 90dB is a fairly efficient speaker and but will require a reasonable sized amplifier- 100-125 rms per channel.

Depending on the specifics and size of the room a decent high end AVR should be sufficient. See the link for calculating the actual power needed.
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

[Joe Schmoe]

However 90dB is a fairly efficient speaker and but will require a reasonable sized amplifier- 100-125 rms per channel.


Depends on how loud you like it. I have driven 87dB speakers with a 15 watt/ch amp, with good results.

[mouettus]

Amplification is like car engines. People tend to buy too big for no use. Oh once in a while you have to pass this freight on the highway but eh... 100 watts is a lot of output power in a speaker.

I'm driving RC-10s with 50 good watts and I can tell you it's plenty.


For B&W, I agree. The price gap between is too much between the 600 and the 700. That's why I went with the RC-70. Right between the two.

[Joe Schmoe]

The emphasis in neutrality is because, only when starting with a neutral speaker, can you then apply coloration exactly to your preference in a later stage. With a non-neutral speaker, the pre-existing colorations are going to prevent you from adjusting the speaker to your exact preference(s). You don't like neutrality sound? No big deal; the method I suggest allows you to apply coloration where and exactly how much that you desire. You normally are forced to live with the built-in coloration(s) of a speaker system. I make a suggestion on how to put control of that coloration in your hands.

To avoid such a management system because you think the electronics 'veil' something is nothing more than paranoia; it certainly is not supported by any credible evidence of which I'm aware. You would have to have a poorly designed or defective circuit in order to produce audibly negative effects.

-Chris
Well, the flat speaker + electronic processing approach works for you, so that is fine. I will always prefer the speakers I enjoy + minimal electronics approach, especially for 2-channel. (Since I can find speakers I enjoy for a lot less than truly neutral speakers, and since good but simple electronics cost a lot less than complex processors, my approach is also far more cost effective.)

[zumbo]

To the OP, I do hope you know the cost to own B&W. They are of the best, and their price reflects it. Axiom is not even in the same class. You could, however, purchase MB Quart direct from Audioholics. You get a free extended warranty, and 30 day return. I promise you, you will not return them. B&W was my speaker of choice, but the price was too high. My Quarts price were equal to the 600 series at the time. My Quarts sound quality fell between the 700 series, and the 800 series at the time. Very, very, similar sound.

http://store.audioholics.com/search?xBrand=MB+Quart&xPriceFrom=0&xPriceTo=0&xSort=&xPage=10000

[fredk]

Its funny how this discussion goes around in circles.

If you add to this the 90% rule, some speakers will give you 90% of the performance of xxx for 50% of the price, your value proposition tilts the decision in favour of other speakers... for some people.

So, it still comes down to listening and deciding where the value lies for you.

If the OP hears value in the B&Ws they are the best choice for him. You do owe it to yourself to be open to, and listen to various options before you decide.

FWIW, if you can shape the sound of something like a 705 with equalization, you can be similarly successful in taming the 'forward' nature of a speaker like the M80 with the very same equalization... if thats what you want.

Chris. Is there anything in particular that makes the Ascend Seirra 1 easier to modify to tame cabinet resonance, or are the mods you suggest something that can be applied to any speaker?

[fredk]

FWIW, I did a bunch of reading on the high end B&Ws last night. They sound like the antithesis (sp??) of Bose.

If I ever win the lottery, the 801 will go on my must audition list.

Fred

[usfscaptain14]

The emphasis in neutrality is because, only when starting with a neutral speaker, can you then apply coloration exactly to your preference in a later stage. With a non-neutral speaker, the pre-existing colorations are going to prevent you from adjusting the speaker to your exact preference(s). You don't like neutrality sound? No big deal; the method I suggest allows you to apply coloration where and exactly how much that you desire. You normally are forced to live with the built-in coloration(s) of a speaker system. I make a suggestion on how to put control of that coloration in your hands.

To avoid such a management system because you think the electronics 'veil' something is nothing more than paranoia; it certainly is not supported by any credible evidence of which I'm aware. You would have to have a poorly designed or defective circuit in order to produce audibly negative effects.

-Chris

This is exactly what i would end up trying to do with any speaker. I alway's have had a nature for perfection. Now granted my idea of perfection differs from others. Isnt' that why we all had the bright lighted equalizers in the 80's ? And didn't we all set that EQ to just the right setting? But then you got to your freinds house and when he wasn't looking youd mess with his EQ and then He'd fly off the handle.

I think what Chris has suggested is the Right set up for me. Thanks!

[zumbo]

FWIW, I did a bunch of reading on the high end B&Ws last night. They sound like the antithesis (sp??) of Bose.

If I ever win the lottery, the 801 will go on my must audition list.

Fred

It is my humble, and honest opinion, that B&W is the premium speaker company. Hearing is believing. The build quality alone, is perfection. If you have haven't auditioned B&W 800 series, you owe it to yourself to do so.

[AdrianMills]

It is my humble, and honest opinion, that B&W is the premium speaker company. Hearing is believing. The build quality alone, is perfection. If you have haven't auditioned B&W 800 series, you owe it to yourself to do so.

I think you should reread his post and then grab a dictionary and look up "antithesis".

Hm, I see you did and edited after I read and before I pressed quote. :D

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...As for "frequency management", that places yet another electronic circuit (and hence another veil) between me and the music. This is why I use direct mode, to bypass as much circuitry as possible.



Amen, brother!:D

That's what I preach too!:)

Source Direct, Pure Direct, Direct Stream Digital, and nothing but Direct.:D

[usfscaptain14]

Because im still very ignorant at this point. I'm wondering just how difficult it will be to work a DSP. Are they very user freindly? Will i just use it to adjust the main's or all the speakers in a 7.1 set up?

Jason

[fredk]

I'm glad You've found what you are looking for Chris.

zumbo. I don't have the cash to plunk down on anything in the 800 line so for now, and for my own good, I am going to stay clear.

Fred

[zumbo]

zumbo. I don't have the cash to plunk down on anything in the 800 line so for now, and for my own good, I am going to stay clear.

Fred

That's usually the case when someone states they want B&W, but haven't auditioned them. They usually are not aware of the price. The 600 series are very competitively priced, but the older MB Quarts are better in build quality, and sound. I have the older Quarts. They can be had (new) for 1k per pair. That is half the price of the new models, and the new models are certainly not twice as good. The center would run you about $550. So, a 5 speaker system would be around $2550. Not including a sub. This is pretty close in price to the B&W 600 series.

You have to pay the cost to be the boss.:D

[Demonster]

.

The best speakers of which I am aware, overall, for a budget oriented system, are the Ascend Seirra 1 and B&W 705, with the 705 having superior over-all linearity. Both have somewhat lower resonance cabinets than most other speakers in their class. The 705 would be the ideal here, but it does cost 2x more than the Sierra, which compromises somewhat in overall linearity. But both are linear enough to be used successfully when paired with a loudspeaker management system. If further savings are needed, one can inject a little elbow grease, and purchase a speaker with superb linearity such as the Ascend CBM-170(on par with the B&W 705 in this regard) that sells for a very low price($350/pair). The problem here is the cabinet is highly resonant, just like most speaker systems. Cabinet resonance causes a coloration on all sounds played through the speaker - thus is a form of distortion. You can, if you are up to some work, you can modify the internals of such a speaker as the CBM-170, and end up with a highly linear speaker with very low resonance cabinet for very low cost. I can elaborate if requested to do so.

-Chris


This might be an outstanding option for me I have a full woodworking shop, build furniture in my spare time and have $60k of french oak dying for a new project. Would it be possible to eloborate in such a way in the forum to provide the details necessary to accomplish B&W (or better) quality using the Ascend CBM-170 or another speaker with better begining drivers for an even better speaker (I am budgeting 3-4k for speakers)? This would allow for some seriously beautiful speakers as an end point for me and certianly the wife would like it better as it would match some of the furniture already built. And perhaps there is an pportunity to increase the speaker quality significantly for the same budget?!?

[WmAx]

This might be an outstanding option for me I have a full woodworking shop, build furniture in my spare time and have $60k of french oak dying for a new project. Would it be possible to eloborate in such a way in the forum to provide the details necessary to accomplish B&W (or better) quality using the Ascend CBM-170 or another speaker with better begining drivers for an even better speaker (I am budgeting 3-4k for speakers)? This would allow for some seriously beautiful speakers as an end point for me and certianly the wife would like it better as it would match some of the furniture already built. And perhaps there is an pportunity to increase the speaker quality significantly for the same budget?!?

I should point out for you: B&W sells their drivers and crossover for their speakers to anyone. The price is very reasonable based on my prior inquries. They charge about the same as you would expect to pay for equivalent quality DIY drivers from Madisound or other similar source.

You could for example, build a pair of 705s(or other B&W speakers) using your own cabinets. The catch is, you need to keep the cabinet front and shape somewhat similar and very close(within 1/4") in size, as the crossover was designed with these variables in mind. This extends to width and upper portion where the mid/tweeter reside. You can modify the lower portion, not near the drivers, to increase height or other aspects. You need a local place that sells the speaker you want to build, so that you can measure these physical characteristics. In addition, you would need a Dayton Woofer Tester 3; it's a USB connected tool that measures T&S parameters of the woofer/midbass. This will be required information(T&S Parameters) in order to determine port design and internal volume. Also keep in mind that you could not easily build an 802D, for example, if you bought the drivers/xovers. The shape of the baffle of the mid itself, would be difficult to copy. Then their is the issue of - the 802D uses an advanced cabinet construction to have virtually zero resonances in the passbands of the drivers used in each of the respective enclosure system. If you were to build a cabinet that copied the external shapes closely enough; then if the cabinet were resonant(as most speakers systems are), it would result in a completely inferior speaker as compared to a factory manufactured 802 cabinet system. The 705 mid/tweeter and xover, I think, would be a good starting point, as the enclosure shape is much easier to copy on the upper portion. You could add a high quality woofer and active crossover to an extended length cabinet design for it - making a full size 3 way.

A DIY design is also possible, using your own selection of drivers, but to build a very high quality speaker from your own design requires a vast knowledge of the subjects related to this area of technology. In addition, even most veteran DIYers do not have very high skill in producing speakers that are of high performance in regards to the critical areas as dictated by the scientific studies on human perception in regards to loudspeaker performance, and I don't know of a single DIY design published online that could begin to compare overall to a design like the 802D, for example.

-Chris

[WmAx]

Because im still very ignorant at this point. I'm wondering just how difficult it will be to work a DSP. Are they very user freindly? Will i just use it to adjust the main's or all the speakers in a 7.1 set up?

Jason

The Behringer DCX unit comes with extremely easy to use GUI software. You can connect a serial cable to your computer and then to back of the DCX and make adjustments. If you want to use a laptop that does not have a serial connection, you can buy a cheap USB to Serial adapter. You can also use the front panel of the DCX directly to make adjustments; but it's not as clear to a new user, or even to an advanced one, as using the GUI software. I'll help you with set up as best I can if you get one of these units.

You can go to Behringer.com and find the DCX2496 product page and download the software from there. You can run the software in virtual mode to see how it operates.

-Chris

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...The [B&W] 600 series are very competitively priced, but the older MB Quarts are better in build quality, and sound...



Wow. I can't believe you said that!:D

What will the B&W fanboys think of you saying that your MB Quarts are BETTER in build quality and Sound than their B&W 600 series?:D

[Joe Schmoe]

What will the B&W fanboys think of you saying that your MB Quarts are BETTER in build quality and Sound than their B&W 600 series?:D

They won't like it a bit.:p
One thing I noticed about the MB Quart bookshelves sold here is that they are relatively power hungry. 40 watts/ch is plenty to drive B&W 685s, but the Quart Alexxas list 70 watts/ch as a minimum.

[zumbo]

My 830's suck-up every bit of the claimed 175W@4ohm my Adcom 7605 is sending them. I don't know if they are power hungry, or just flat-out tough.;) Love 'em, love 'em, love 'em.

Wow. I can't believe you said that!:D

What will the B&W fanboys think of you saying that your MB Quarts are BETTER in build quality and Sound than their B&W 600 series?:D

I am a B&W fanboy.

[furrycute]

I once had the chance to audition a pair of B&W 802D's powered by a pair of Musical Fidelity mono blocks. My jaws just dropped. I couldn't believe that speakers can sound so life like. And the bass, the 802D's had a seemingly bottomless amount of bass. The CD I was listening to had some orchestral pieces on it. It was then that I understood why audiophiles like to play orchestral music on megabuck full range speakers. The fullness and the richness of sound from those 802D's were just beyond words.

From that day onward I decided that my ultimate speaker purchase would be a pair of B&W 802D's, or maybe even a pair of 800D's. 3 years later, still saving up that money, maybe in another 5 years...

[WmAx]

I once had the chance to audition a pair of B&W 802D's powered by a pair of Musical Fidelity mono blocks. My jaws just dropped. I couldn't believe that speakers can sound so life like. And the bass, the 802D's had a seemingly bottomless amount of bass. The CD I was listening to had some orchestral pieces on it. It was then that I understood why audiophiles like to play orchestral music on megabuck full range speakers. The fullness and the richness of sound from those 802D's were just beyond words.

From that day onward I decided that my ultimate speaker purchase would be a pair of B&W 802D's, or maybe even a pair of 800D's. 3 years later, still saving up that money, maybe in another 5 years...

And just imagine, compared to a properly engineered omnipolar type speaker in a proper acoustical environment - even the top end B&Ws will sound ordinary/not nearly as realistic in comparison. :)

-Chris

[furrycute]

Alas, not everyone is as knowledgeable on the technical side of audio engineering as you are. Go Chris!:D


I am curious, what do you think of the B&W 800D? Is its frequency response as flat as the 802D? And the cabinet just as non-resonant? And is the 800D really worth twice as much as the 802D?

And what do you think of the B&W top of the line sub? How does it stack up against the likes of the Velodyne DD series?

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/display.aspx?infid=1167&sc=hf


And just imagine, compared to a properly engineered omnipolar type speaker in a proper acoustical environment - even the top end B&Ws will sound ordinary/not nearly as realistic in comparison. :)

-Chris

[WmAx]

I am curious, what do you think of the B&W 800D? Is its frequency response as flat as the 802D? And the cabinet just as non-resonant? And is the 800D really worth twice as much as the 802D?

Very similar to 802D. The 802D, IMO, is not worth exceeding with more expensive B&W products; the 802D pretty much offers 98% of what B&W has to offer; that being a near-ideal monopolar speaker with extremely flat response and virtually no resonances. They could improve on off axis linearity. Couple an 802D with a powerful DSP management system and you can pretty much get any response curve you could want from a monopolar speaker system.

And what do you think of the B&W top of the line sub? How does it stack up against the likes of the Velodyne DD series?

I don't know of 3rd party measurements on the subwoofer; there for I can not say.

-Chris

[furrycute]

While I am at it, just a couple of more question for ya Chris. Of course my interests in these megabuck speakers are just purely of an intellectual nature at this point in time...:D

What do you think of the Focal Grande Utopia Be? Last I heard the going price for a new pair is somewhere in the range of $100,000. That's almost 10x the price of a pair of B&W 802D's. It's kind of hard to swallow the astronomical cost.
http://www.focal.tm.fr/


And what do you think of the Wilson Watt Puppy 8? Wilson owners seem to swear by them.
http://www.wilsonaudio.com/product/watt_puppy_8/

[mike c]

agreed with Chris. 802D + Subs > 800D without subs

[WmAx]

While I am at it, just a couple of more question for ya Chris. Of course my interests in these megabuck speakers are just purely of an intellectual nature at this point in time...:D

What do you think of the Focal Grande Utopia Be? Last I heard the going price for a new pair is somewhere in the range of $100,000. That's almost 10x the price of a pair of B&W 802D's. It's kind of hard to swallow the astronomical cost.
http://www.focal.tm.fr/


And what do you think of the Wilson Watt Puppy 8? Wilson owners seem to swear by them.
http://www.wilsonaudio.com/product/watt_puppy_8/

B&W currently has the best value that I know of in monopolar speaker systems. You can spend 1000x as much as the 802D, and you simply can not get something that is substantially better in so far as monopolar speaker systems are concerned. Wilson, to my knowledge, does not make a speaker even close to the over-all linearity and low resonance of the 802D, at any price scale. Some of the Focal Utopia speakers may perform close to the 802D; but at a higher cost.

What more is it that you want from a monopolar speaker that the 802D does not offer? As I said, the only thing I can think of that it could improve upon is off axis linearity; but the 802D is pretty good in that regard, and nothing else really exceeds it by much in that regard in the monopolar speaker market.

B&W 802D + stereo subwoofers + DSP E.Q./Xover/Management system = monopolar sound of unparalleled quality potential. :D

-Chris

[usfscaptain14]

Chris, I was wondering If you have heard the Salk Son Towers or If you had an opinion on them? Are they very linear? How do know what is linear? Do you have any suggestions of reading material so i can get cauaght up on the terminology of the audio arena?

Jason

[Halvie]

zumbo where are you finding older MBs that are new? Could you post a link or two?

[EJ1]

Chris, I was wondering If you have heard the Salk Son Towers or If you had an opinion on them? Are they very linear?

Jason
These links may help you...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=919069
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=931069
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=995082

[Joe Schmoe]

And just imagine, compared to a properly engineered omnipolar type speaker in a proper acoustical environment - even the top end B&Ws will sound ordinary/not nearly as realistic in comparison. :)

-Chris

Good point. Even the cheap, entry-level Mirages that I have sound astonishingly good. I can only imagine what their OM flagships sound like. (Based on the price, these must be made from pure unobtainium.:eek:)

[WmAx]

Chris, I was wondering If you have heard the Salk Son Towers or If you had an opinion on them? Are they very linear? How do know what is linear? Do you have any suggestions of reading material so i can get cauaght up on the terminology of the audio arena?

Jason

I have not used Salk speakers. But, all of the Salk speakers are designed by Dennis Murphy, as far as I know. You can count on them being very linear due to this fact. However, I would not presume the Salk line of speakers are on par with a device such as the 802D; not even close. The Salk speakers are built using standard enclosure building methods as used by most hi-fi speakers, thus resulting in high probability of substantial timbre coloration due to panel resonance(s).

-Chris

[WmAx]

BTW, for those of you that might not have remembered, if you want a full size, full range speaker system with highly linear response on and off axis, and a cabinet system that does not have any substantial resonances, you can always go used and get a late 80's vintage B&W 801 Matrix series II or III. It has very little compromise[1] over the modern 802D/801D in terms of over-all performance. Average eBay going prices seem to be 2000-2500 for a mint pair.

-Chris

[1] B&W Matrix Series II Measurements
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/506/index7.html
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/506/index8.html

[furrycute]

Yes, I do remember your mentioning of the older B&W 800 series speakers. Saw a couple of them on audiogon in fact. Very reasonably priced for such huge speakers.:)