Format War Pricing Aftermath: Blu-ray Up, HD-DVD Down

[admin]

The long awaited end to the format war may help consumers by clearing up some confusion created by choice in HD optical discs, but it is not bringing about better pricing to the consumer. Based on price comparison research performed by TG Daily, the demise of HD-DVD and the industry charge to embrace Blu-ray Disc (BD) does not seem to be increasing market competitiveness that invariably should lead to reduced prices. Worse, current prices for players on the market are not just stagnating, but are actually drifting back up.
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/format-war-blu-ray-up-hd-dvd-down/image_thumb

Discuss "Format War Pricing Aftermath: Blu-ray Up, HD-DVD Down" here. Read the article (http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/format-war-blu-ray-up-hd-dvd-down).

[JackT]

What a dumb article.

[Johnd]

What a dumb article.


??? :confused:

Are you for real? This is Audioholics. The mods and editors write articles about electronics. That is precisely what Mr. Waratuke has done, and has compiled a graph with research to back up his story. If you wish to contradict anything written in the story, please tell me you have something more to state than: "What a dumb article." Please.

[JackT]

If you wish to contradict anything written in the story, please tell me you have something more to state than: "What a dumb article." Please.

Ok sure!. The basic gist of the article is that Blu-ray player prices are "too high" whatever that means, and this somehow is indicative of nefarious anti-market forces, specifically the operation of a "cartel."

Here is one reason why the article is dumb: the same whining nonsense could have been written about

-VHS players in 1978. (Crappy VHS still expensive? CARTEL! The market is broken!)
-CD players in 1984. (Too expensive! The consumer will never adopt these! Run for the hills FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!)
-DVD players in 1997. (Players still cost too much!! CAPITALISM NOT WORKING!!!)
-MP3 players in 1998. (How much for a crappy 512MB???? PRICE FIXING AT WORK!!! CONSUMER GETTING screwed!!!)

Seriously, what did the author, who, as you helpfully pointed out, is a professional AV article writer, expect to happen to the price of BR players after the elimination of HD-DVD? I'm guessing BR player manufacturers expected an INCREASE IN DEMAND subsequent to:
1)Increased market share and
2)Decreased disincentive to buy due to format war uncertainty.

So, there is a price bump, and the author posts a ridiculous graph with a line through it, and we are supposed to conclude something is wrong? Really?

Since you asked for explanations, here is one more reason why the article is dumb: the author couldn't help throwing in a little gratuitous "the wrong format won" hand wringing.

But, I figured all of this would be self-evident to any reader, so I just said "This article is dumb."

How's that?

[Johnd]

Ok sure!. The basic gist of the article is that Blu-ray player prices are "too high" whatever that means, and this somehow is indicative of nefarious anti-market forces, specifically the operation of a "cartel."

Here is one reason why the article is dumb: the same whining nonsense could have been written about

-VHS players in 1978. (Crappy VHS still expensive? CARTEL! The market is broken!)
-CD players in 1984. (Too expensive! The consumer will never adopt these! Run for the hills FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!)
-DVD players in 1997. (Players still cost to much!! CAPITALISM NOT WORKING!!!)
-MP3 players in 1998. (How much for a crappy 512MB???? PRICE FIXING AT WORK!!! CONSUMER GETTING screwed!!!)

Seriously, what did the author, who, as you helpfully pointed out, is a professional AV article writer, expect to happen to the price of BR players after the elimination of HD-DVD? I'm guessing BR player manufacturers expected an INCREASE IN DEMAND subsequent to:
1)Increased market share and
2)Decreased disincentive to buy do to format war uncertainty.

So, there is a price bump, and the author posts a ridiculous graph with a line through it, and we are supposed to conclude something is wrong? Really?

Since you asked for explanations, here is one more reason why the article is dumb: the author couldn't help throwing in a little gratuitous "the wrong format won" hand wringing.

But, I figured all of this would be self-evident to any reader, so I just said "This article is dumb."

How's that?

Well, that's a little more descriptive Jack, albeit in a seemingly spiteful manner. ;)

I hear what you're saying, and some subjectivity invariably enters the equation. Judges do it. Writers do it. Reviewers do it. That does not undo the facts.

And this is pertinent. I myself am a newb to high def. I would not have gotten into it but for the price slashing of HD hardware and software. The only way I would ever consider BD is if their prices too were slashed...and I don't think I'm alone on that.

I see your point, but the little bit of inserted subjectivity in no way undoes the facts, nor slants the story to be pure fodder. Not to me. And, imho, nothing is "self-evident." Nothing. That is a myth. Cheers, John

[lonwa]

It just sounds like Jack is not having a good day. Don't be too hard on him though, this week has been kicking my butt (I blame the DST time change...)

:)

[Johnd]

It just sounds like Jack is not having a good day. Don't be too hard on him though, this week has been kicking my butt (I blame the DST time change...)

:)

You may be right. Then I wish you and Jack a better tomorrow. :)

[birdonthebeach]

And lets not forget - editorials are SUPPOSED to be subjective...

[Johnd]

And lets not forget - editorials are SUPPOSED to be subjective...

Ahhh. The voice of reason. Happy day birdonthebeach. :)

[dobyblue]

And lets not forget - editorials are SUPPOSED to be subjective...

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.

sub·jec·tive /səbˈdʒɛktɪv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[suhb-jek-tiv] –adjective
1. existing in the mind; belonging to the thinking subject rather than to the object of thought (opposed to objective).
2. pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation.
3. placing excessive emphasis on one's own moods, attitudes, opinions, etc.; unduly egocentric.

[Johnd]

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.

Wow. You're not suggesting this lies entirely within Mr. Waratuke's mind are you? The subjective part is for a little flavor, and the story is not tantamount to pure sophistry. It is largely fact.

[dobyblue]

Wow. You're not suggesting this lies entirely within Mr. Waratuke's mind are you? The subjective part is for a little flavor, and the story is not tantamount to pure sophistry. It is largely fact.

No, it is sensationalism. Learn to spot the difference. Remove yourself from your emotional attachment to HD DVD for just two minutes and you'll see how contrived this analysis is.

[JackT]

It just sounds like Jack is not having a good day. Don't be too hard on him though, this week has been kicking my butt (I blame the DST time change...)

:)
Heh, it takes me a few months to adjust to the spring ahead one.

[Johnd]

No, it is sensationalism. Learn to spot the difference. Remove yourself from your emotional attachment to HD DVD for just two minutes and you'll see how contrived this analysis is.

I do not get emotional with electronics. ;)

Sensational? Emotional? Contrived?

Who's not looking at this objectively? The story is fact based, and is itself largely factual. Your failure to interpret that lies within yourself. :o

[PENG]

-VHS players in 1978. (Crappy VHS still expensive? CARTEL! The market is broken!)
-CD players in 1984. (Too expensive! The consumer will never adopt these! Run for the hills FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!)
-DVD players in 1997. (Players still cost too much!! CAPITALISM NOT WORKING!!!)
-MP3 players in 1998. (How much for a crappy 512MB???? PRICE FIXING AT WORK!!! CONSUMER GETTING screwed!!!)

I'm guessing BR player manufacturers expected an INCREASE IN DEMAND subsequent to:
1)Increased market share and
2)Decreased disincentive to buy due to format war uncertainty.

So, there is a price bump, and the author posts a ridiculous graph with a line through it, and we are supposed to conclude something is wrong? Really?

How's that?

I think you are right, that's how the rule of supply and demand works. DVD and CD players did not get widely accepted until their prices became affordable by the middle class. BD is going to follow the same path except that the path will be more difficult, unless it is cut short, meaning rapid price drop. Reason being is, the PQ improvement (perceived) between DVD and VHS is far greater than that between DVD and BD. On a 42 inch or smaller screen, most people don't see the need to pay $449 for an entry level Sony BD. In other words, to many people, anything beyond 480p is approaching the point of diminishing return even though theoretically there is a huge jump from 480 to 1080. This is even more true on the audio side, most people are quite happy with plain 5.1 let alone DTS6.1. The format itself also has a lot to do with it, there is a huge physical difference between Video/Audio cassette tapes and the disc. BD offers no advantage in terms of the physical format.

[Dezoris]

You will only hear the HDDVD adopters crying about Blu-Ray prices.
(Some Audioholics staff)
They went with Microsoft and got the shaft, should have known better.

Secondly the PS3 price has gone down which should be the only first generation BluRay player anyone should buy until we have 2.0 spec standalone players being sold off the shelf.

[Johnd]

You will only hear the HDDVD adopters crying about Blu-Ray prices.
(Some Audioholics staff)
They went with Microsoft and got the shaft, should have known better.

Secondly the PS3 price has gone down which should be the only first generation BluRay player anyone should buy until we have 2.0 spec standalone players being sold off the shelf.

Crying? Sheesh. You guys are emotionally wrought.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I am not remotely interested in BD until the hardware and software becomes reasonably priced, and nor do I believe is the mass market. Boo-hoo. :p

[alexsound]

The long awaited end to the format war may help consumers by clearing up some confusion created by choice in HD optical discs, but it is not bringing about better pricing to the consumer. Based on price comparison research performed by TG Daily, the demise of HD-DVD and the industry charge to embrace Blu-ray Disc (BD) does not seem to be increasing market competitiveness that invariably should lead to reduced prices. Worse, current prices for players on the market are not just stagnating, but are actually drifting back up.
http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/format-war-blu-ray-up-hd-dvd-down/image_thumb

Discuss "Format War Pricing Aftermath: Blu-ray Up, HD-DVD Down" here. Read the article (http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/format-war-blu-ray-up-hd-dvd-down).


I don't know if this is necessarily a "dumb article" but certainly premature in it's judgement. Upward pricing? No market competitiveness? It's been LESS than a month since Toshiba made their announcement to kill HD-DVD. If the "graph" is the same a year from now, then this article would be relavent. At this point in time, this article comes across as just sour grapes. Honestly, the market is just beginning to react to the BD win. Give it some time before passing judgement.

[Johnd]

I don't know if this is necessarily a "dumb article" but certainly premature in it's judgement. Upward pricing? No market competitiveness? It's been LESS than a month since Toshiba made their announcement to kill HD-DVD. If the "graph" is the same a year from now, then this article would be relavent. At this point in time, this article comes across as just sour grapes. Honestly, the market is just beginning to react to the BD win. Give it some time before passing judgement.

Well, it's practically a "quarterly report" for BD. It draws data from the first of the year, and is it's now mid March, we are almost at the end of the quarter. I take it for what it's worth, and see no misrepresentation.

[dobyblue]

Well, it's practically a "quarterly report" for BD. It draws data from the first of the year, and is it's now mid March, we are almost at the end of the quarter. I take it for what it's worth, and see no misrepresentation.

You say this, yet not an hour ago acknowledged in another thread that the pricing changes between January and March are "perhaps" normal for a/v products.

Which is it? The misrepresentation is glaringly obvious.

[Johnd]

You say this, yet not an hour ago acknowledged in another thread that the pricing changes between January and March are "perhaps" normal for a/v products.

Which is it? The misrepresentation is glaringly obvious.


C'mon. Are you really 15? This isn't that complicated. Why can both not be true? Mr. Waratuke's report is tantamount to a quarterly report (a microcosm, as it were:ytd retail sales pricing of BD players). He did not state why BD prices are inclining, but alluded to the fact that there may be multiple reasons. It is quite possible that the next "quarterly report" will show a decline in prices. Possible. Likely? I doubt it.

[Jim Robbins]

<Rant>

You will only hear the HDDVD adopters crying about Blu-Ray prices.
(Some Audioholics staff)


I don't cry about hardware. I complain... And when I complain, you'll hear it! Am I audioholics staff? Well, probably not "Staff" but a contributing writer sometimes. And yeah, the end of HD-DVD bugs me. I like completed specifications. I like cheaper prices. I like HD video and sound.


They went with Microsoft and got the shaft, should have known better.

As a full time software developer who programs on the MS platform every day, I know full well, that Microsoft succeeds more often than they fail. And heck, if MS really wanted to put their heart (and money) behind HD-DVD, it wouldn't have failed.


Secondly the PS3 price has gone down which should be the only first generation BluRay player anyone should buy until we have 2.0 spec standalone players being sold off the shelf.
Yes, I have a PoS3, so I can play games and watch Blu ray. The thing works fine for a video game/ techno junkie like myself. But the average consumer won't want a console for their movie player. I help a lot of people with HT installs, and now the price of HD video just went up from $150 to $400 for a decent HD player. Only, I have to tell them that their $400 player won't be fully compatible with stuff coming out at Christmas time. But, if they buy a game console it will. The 50ish year old owner of my company will be working on an HT soon. He isn't really a gamer, buy you expect me to put a PS controller in his hand to play HD movies? You know, the guy with money who can afford to blow $400 on a player? No, he wants a remote... Oh, get the BlueTooth remote then... Well, that's not going to work with the Crestron control panel he's buying. PS3 isn't an option.

Come on people! HD A/V has been out for 2 years now, and the format that "wins" is incomplete, costs more, and is run by a company that is known for proprietary standards. Am I bitter? No, I am ticked off. I want HD to be easy and cheap enough for everyone.

Is it nice that BD has more space? Sure it is. Does BD or HD DVD look better? It's the same with the same video and audio codecs, etc... Is one "better" than the other? Not really. I enjoy moves on HD DVDs as well as BD DVDs.... Equally!

Do I care who wins and loses? NO!!! I still just want good, cheap, and easy.

</Rant>

[Johnd]

Come on people! HD A/V has been out for 2 years now, and the format that "wins" is incomplete, costs more, and is run by a company that is known for proprietary standards. Am I bitter? No, I am ticked off. I want HD to be easy and cheap enough for everyone.

Do I care who wins and loses? NO!!! I still just want good, cheap, and easy.

My sentiments exactly. Well stated Mr. Robbins. :)

[Dezoris]

<Rant>



I don't cry about hardware. I complain... And when I complain, you'll hear it! Am I audioholics staff? Well, probably not "Staff" but a contributing writer sometimes. And yeah, the end of HD-DVD bugs me. I like completed specifications. I like cheaper prices. I like HD video and sound.


As a full time software developer who programs on the MS platform every day, I know full well, that Microsoft succeeds more often than they fail. And heck, if MS really wanted to put their heart (and money) behind HD-DVD, it wouldn't have failed.


Yes, I have a PoS3, so I can play games and watch Blu ray. The thing works fine for a video game/ techno junkie like myself. But the average consumer won't want a console for their movie player. I help a lot of people with HT installs, and now the price of HD video just went up from $150 to $400 for a decent HD player. Only, I have to tell them that their $400 player won't be fully compatible with stuff coming out at Christmas time. But, if they buy a game console it will. The 50ish year old owner of my company will be working on an HT soon. He isn't really a gamer, buy you expect me to put a PS controller in his hand to play HD movies? You know, the guy with money who can afford to blow $400 on a player? No, he wants a remote... Oh, get the BlueTooth remote then... Well, that's not going to work with the Crestron control panel he's buying. PS3 isn't an option.

Come on people! HD A/V has been out for 2 years now, and the format that "wins" is incomplete, costs more, and is run by a company that is known for proprietary standards. Am I bitter? No, I am ticked off. I want HD to be easy and cheap enough for everyone.

Is it nice that BD has more space? Sure it is. Does BD or HD DVD look better? It's the same with the same video and audio codecs, etc... Is one "better" than the other? Not really. I enjoy moves on HD DVDs as well as BD DVDs.... Equally!

Do I care who wins and loses? NO!!! I still just want good, cheap, and easy.

</Rant>

You said you like HD, completed specs, and cheap prices?

Those cheap HDDVD players did not have HDMI 1.3 1080p/24 output and HD audio which is the whole point of this HD format.

So that argument does not make much sense if you like HD?

Microsoft had the ability to have HDDVD in the hands of over 18 million customers. They chose that it was not important enough in the long run to include HDDVD players in the Xbox360 so they rushed to market botched hardware.

Almost everything MS does with hardware fails, and they have no experience in A/V.

They blew it and Toshiba bet wrong that MS would follow through on helping support the format. They had limited manufacturer support and studio support which was the absolute key in securing a format right from day one.

And don't give me the PS3 does not work bit. You can use an IR USB connector for optional remotes. And it's ready for 2.0 spec.
They will also have movie rental service soon backed by Netflix.

The PS3 passes 1080p/24 does HD (limited) audio everything the HD format was designed for, including the support for 40mbs video something HDDVD was not capable of.

[birdonthebeach]

I'm not sure what exactly the definition of "win" is in the whole HD format war. Certainly HD DVD did not win - that we can agree on. I'm just not sure what BD has "won" anything yet. They certainly out-spent their competitor and ended up killing them off, but there is no way that they are anywhere near making up all the cash they sunk into the "war." So does this opinion make me "some Audioholics staff" crying?

I'm certainly not emotional about the situation, and would almost say I am indifferent. I have a $98 HD DVD player and about 15 discs that I paid $0.00 for. (mail-in offers) And here is the truth, regardless of what you might think: If the Blu-ray player w/free discs had been on sale for $98, THAT is what I would have purchased. My projector can't pass 1080p anyway, so it has all been sport for me. No way I was gonna jump in early on this one when the cost of entry was $400-$500.

My guess is that before the hardware and physical media become mainstream (affordable and mass market), we will see digital delivery beat it to the punch. As Audioholics (by nature or by profession), we tend to be early adopters (with opinions) and will sometimes spend big $$$ to have the latest and greatest. This has not been one of those times. I had no problem dropping $98 on this little experiment - but no way I am gonna drop $399. I don't buy many DVD's anyway - we use Netflix.

Until I get the dream theater built (probably about a year away), I will sit back and enjoy my 15 movies and whatever Netflix has left. It stinks that the format failed, but so far it's been a decent bang for my $98 bucks....

[Johnd]

Those cheap HDDVD players did not have HDMI 1.3 1080p/24 output and HD audio which is the whole point of this HD format.

So that argument does not make much sense if you like HD?

I disagree (surprisingly :p).

One does not need, nor can they take advatage of 1080 if their display is only 720...and there are an awful lot of 720 displays out there. And many of them display quite good picture quality.

One does not need a 1080p signal if their display is 720, and the deinterlacing can be performed easily by any quality display.

24 Hz only becomes problematic, or necessary, in a small amount of people's theaters.

In a perfect world, perhaps we could avoid the redundancy (and related cost) of 1080p if all players were 1080i, and all displays were 1080p native, but sadly, we do not live in a perfect world. :)

[dobyblue]

And yeah, the end of HD-DVD bugs me. I like completed specifications. I like cheaper prices. I like HD video and sound.

1) HD sound and HD DVD didn't go hand in hand, certainly not like BD did.
2) I think less than 10% of HD DVD players supported dts-HD Master Audio, so how were the specifications complete when the players didn't support all that the discs supported.

As a full time software developer who programs on the MS platform every day, I know full well, that Microsoft succeeds more often than they fail. And heck, if MS really wanted to put their heart (and money) behind HD-DVD, it wouldn't have failed.

This seems a little gullible to me. You think MS would be able to take on all the CE's and all the Hollywood studios minus Toshiba? Given that HD DVD wasn't ready to launch when they launched the 360, so they couldn't have incorporated it without delaying their launch date.

Yes, I have a PoS3, so I can play games and watch Blu ray. The thing works fine for a video game/ techno junkie like myself. But the average consumer won't want a console for their movie player. I help a lot of people with HT installs, and now the price of HD video just went up from $150 to $400 for a decent HD player. Only, I have to tell them that their $400 player won't be fully compatible with stuff coming out at Christmas time.

You'd be misleading them if you led them to believe that it wouldn't be compatible with 100% of all the movies and over 90% of the special features.

Come on people! HD A/V has been out for 2 years now, and the format that "wins" is incomplete, costs more, and is run by a company that is known for proprietary standards. Am I bitter?

It sounds like it, if you seriously believe that Sony runs Blu-ray. The average software for Blu-ray has been cheaper than HD DVD for well over a year, you can look through the timeline of eProdictwars. So you think one piece of hardware being more expensive is more anti-consumer in the long run than cheaper software?

No, I am ticked off. I want HD to be easy and cheap enough for everyone. Do I care who wins and loses? NO!!! I still just want good, cheap, and easy.


Me too, I'm patiently waiting for that $99 plasma HDTV!!
:rolleyes:

[Johnd]

[QUOTE]1) HD sound and HD DVD didn't go hand in hand, certainly not like BD did.

I don't know what that means (or infers). I am enjoying DD+ and True (and DD, DTS, DTS ES, DD EX, etc) on my somewhat ancient 5803. :) I think it sounds incredible...no problems whatsoever with audio playback.

2) I think less than 10% of HD DVD players supported dts-HD Master Audio, so how were the specifications complete when the players didn't support all that the discs supported.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous, or worse, misleading? I can think of one title that has DTS HDMA. One.

This seems a little gullible to me. You think MS would be able to take on all the CE's and all the Hollywood studios minus Toshiba? Given that HD DVD wasn't ready to launch when they launched the 360, so they couldn't have incorporated it without delaying their launch date.

Not to be so presumptuous to speak for another, let alone a mod, but what I took from that statement is MS has the wherewithal to do just about anything they want with software. And that I believe.

You'd be misleading them if you led them to believe that it wouldn't be compatible with 100% of all the movies and over 90% of the special features.

Again, I don't know what this means. I have three HD players, and there is not one HD disc (or feature) that I have not been able to play on it. Not one. So in the real world, what does it matter?

It sounds like it, if you seriously believe that Sony runs Blu-ray. The average software for Blu-ray has been cheaper than HD DVD for well over a year, you can look through the timeline of eProdictwars. So you think one piece of hardware being more expensive is more anti-consumer in the long run than cheaper software?

In all actuality, although Amazon just announced a big BD sale, I think those are mostly old titles, and titles that have been repeatedly on sale. The new releases are not $10 or $15. And these sale prices are only at Amazon...it has not trickled down in any meaningful way to b&m stores.

Me too, I'm patiently waiting for that $99 plasma HDTV!!
:rolleyes:

Hmmm. I'm not (waiting), because I might as well be waiting for the cows to come home. :p

[JackT]

My guess is that before the hardware and physical media become mainstream (affordable and mass market), we will see digital delivery beat it to the punch.

I think it is undoubtedly true that digital delivery will be the way it is done some day. It seems clear to me, though, that this is more than 5 years away from being mainstream, mainly because this requires a lot of infrastructure to be deployed. A lot of people have been waiting for decent broadband connections, much less having the ability to conveniently download 2hr. HD movies.

Another thing is, people are buying HDTVs NOW, and want to watch HD discs, and the players are in the stores TODAY. Someday they will be able to get movies digitally, but even if they are aware of that fact, they certainly have no idea when.

[obscbyclouds]

<Rant>

I don't cry about hardware. I complain... And when I complain, you'll hear it! Am I audioholics staff? Well, probably not "Staff" but a contributing writer sometimes. And yeah, the end of HD-DVD bugs me. I like completed specifications. I like cheaper prices. I like HD video and sound.


As a full time software developer who programs on the MS platform every day, I know full well, that Microsoft succeeds more often than they fail. And heck, if MS really wanted to put their heart (and money) behind HD-DVD, it wouldn't have failed.




I have to take issue with some of this. Where was the HD sound on the "Transformers" HD-DVD? Dolby Digital Plus? phhbbbttt to that. This bugged me to no end, it was a flagship title, not some shabby remastered release.

Cheaper prices? You realize those Toshiba players were sold at a fairly high loss. You can't tell me a HD-A35 only cost $150 to build. I think the A35 originally went for $500, A30 for $400. Not to mention the XA2 at $799. Because Toshiba was willing to sell at a loss doesn't mean that other manufacturers are willing to do the same. For example Onkyo's HD-DVD player was going to cost $899 at release. Ouch!

Microsoft succeeds...well, I suppose that's debateable. As a company, there's no doubt it's true. However, as an owner of my 3rd X-Box 360, they certainly didn't succeed on that front. Either way, this seems like a strange reason to support a certain format.

As far as the gist of the article goes, yup, prices are going up. So is everything else, as the dollar gets weaker and weaker, things we buy will get more and more expensive. It's a fact of life. However, I do believe as more and more manufacturers produce BR players, the cost will fall. Maybe we need a government inquest into the "Big Blu-ray" industry for price gouging. I'm sure you could find a few Senators and Congressmen who want some more T.V. time. :D

[birdonthebeach]

I think it is undoubtedly true that digital delivery will be the way it is done some day. It seems clear to me, though, that this is more than 5 years away from being mainstream, mainly because this requires a lot of infrastructure to be deployed. A lot of people have been waiting for decent broadband connections, much less having the ability to conveniently download 2hr. HD movies.

Another thing is, people are buying HDTVs NOW, and want to watch HD discs, and the players are in the stores TODAY. Someday they will be able to get movies digitally, but even if they are aware of that fact, they certainly have no idea when.




I agree pretty much with what you point out, but I still say that mainstream America (Wal-Mart Guy or Best-Buy Guy) who is buying up all those HDTV's is just fine with the picture quality they get from their $9.99 SD DVD, and are not yet ready to spend another $400 on the player and upwards of $25 on the BD.

Don't get me wrong - I WANT everyone to want a HD disc format, but I still think it is a niche product for us hardcore guys... Pricing, in my opinion, is what will make it mainstream.

[JackT]

Don't get me wrong - I WANT everyone to want a HD disc format, but I still think it is a niche product for us hardcore guys... Pricing, in my opinion, is what will make it mainstream.

Agreed. This is no different than the situation for any of the previous formats (VHS, CD, DVD.) Prices will come down, and everyone will have a DVD player with a BluRay logo on the front.

[birdonthebeach]

I'm sure you could find a few Senators and Congressmen who want some more T.V. time. :D

I love it!!! Maybe Spector, after he finishes with the Pats. Geez - save us from our politicians. I have said it before and I will say it again. Washington DC is Hollywood for ugly people.....

[Johnd]

Either way, this seems like a strange reason to support a certain format.

Strange? That's the only reason I got into HD. It was incredibly cheap. I wouldn't have delved in otherwise. Birdonthebeach stated the same. And so have other members here. The fact is HD hardware has always been cheaper than BD hardware. Still not cheap enough for me (and others) until the firesales began. Strange. No. It's purely economic. If and when BD players (a decent one) comes out for about $150, and most titles are $10 - $15, I may then renew my interest in a new format. Until then, all you rich guys can have it. :p

[obscbyclouds]

Strange? That's the only reason I got into HD. It was incredibly cheap. I wouldn't have delved in otherwise. Birdonthebeach stated the same. And so have other members here. The fact is HD hardware has always been cheaper than BD hardware. Still not cheap enough for me (and others) until the firesales began. Strange. No. It's purely economic. If and when BD players (a decent one) comes out for about $150, and most titles are $10 - $15, I may then renew my interest in a new format. Until then, all you rich guys can have it. :p

Read again John, I meant Microsoft's support.....the "because they usually succeed" comment. I wasn't talking about price there.

[Johnd]

Read again John, I meant Microsoft's support.....the "because they usually succeed" comment. I wasn't talking about price there.

Oh. Kind of a runon (that was the gist of the first part of your post), even though it is a separate paragraph. Sorry. Nevermind. ;)

[Dezoris]

I agree pretty much with what you point out, but I still say that mainstream America (Wal-Mart Guy or Best-Buy Guy) who is buying up all those HDTV's is just fine with the picture quality they get from their $9.99 SD DVD, and are not yet ready to spend another $400 on the player and upwards of $25 on the BD.

Don't get me wrong - I WANT everyone to want a HD disc format, but I still think it is a niche product for us hardcore guys... Pricing, in my opinion, is what will make it mainstream.

Yes, the pricing is key and apparent by even the way people who are somewhat into A/V are doing on this site.

Strange? That's the only reason I got into HD. It was incredibly cheap. I wouldn't have delved in otherwise. Birdonthebeach stated the same. And so have other members here. The fact is HD hardware has always been cheaper than BD hardware. Still not cheap enough for me (and others) until the firesales began. Strange. No. It's purely economic. If and when BD players (a decent one) comes out for about $150, and most titles are $10 - $15, I may then renew my interest in a new format. Until then, all you rich guys can have it. :p

This is what I am getting from my friends. They want HD but don't want to spend the money to get the most out of the capability.

It's like buying the 6 cylinder Mustang instead of the V8. You have the look but not the real deal. (I dont like Mustangs BTW)

I am shocked at the amount of people investing in something because it is cheap instead of what is best for the long haul.

Its like one of the older podcasts from here talked about. The guy who has the plasma over the fireplace and got HD Dish service and had it hooked up with a composite cable.

If you are not going to run 1080p with HD audio why buy an HD player when you will be fine with DVD?

[dobyblue]

I don't know what that means (or infers). I am enjoying DD+ and True (and DD, DTS, DTS ES, DD EX, etc) on my somewhat ancient 5803. :) I think it sounds incredible...no problems whatsoever with audio playback.
Of course it sounds incredible, but the point you've conveniently missed is that the number of titles available with lossless audio on the red was pathetic compared to the # of titles available on Blu.
Isn't that a bit disingenuous, or worse, misleading? I can think of one title that has DTS HDMA. One.
There are lots of HD DVD releases with dts-ma on them. Pretty much all of Studio Canal's releases have dts-ma on them, unless of course you're arrogant enough to suggest that anything outside the borders of the USA doesn't count?
In addition to that, over 30% of the HD DVD units sold cannot even output decoded Dolby TrueHD, as they have no analog or HDMI output for audio. (360 HD DVD add-on)
In all actuality, although Amazon just announced a big BD sale, I think those are mostly old titles, and titles that have been repeatedly on sale. The new releases are not $10 or $15. And these sale prices are only at Amazon...it has not trickled down in any meaningful way to b&m stores.

Who's talking just about the most recent sale, I'm talking about all the sales throughout the past year.
Hmmm. I'm not (waiting), because I might as well be waiting for the cows to come home. :p
BINGO!!!!!!!!!!

[bobnegi]

VHS players in 1978. (Crappy VHS still expensive? CARTEL! The market is broken!)
-CD players in 1984. (Too expensive! The consumer will never adopt these! Run for the hills FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!)
-DVD players in 1997. (Players still cost too much!! CAPITALISM NOT WORKING!!!)
-MP3 players in 1998. (How much for a crappy 512MB???? PRICE FIXING AT WORK!!! CONSUMER GETTING screwed!!!)

Please correct me if I am wrong, the above formats are classified as 'open source' whereas Blur Ray is proprietary, hence little impetuous from the manufactures to achieve economies of scale to reduce street prices.

I know most of you are early adopters...did Sony come to your house, stick a gun in your mouth and force you to by Blue Ray and to replace your existing SD DVD?

I think not, I bought a HD DVD after the Toshiba announcement, and guess what? All my SD DVD's look great! Not to mention the free movie deal

[Dezoris]

I disagree (surprisingly :p).

One does not need, nor can they take advatage of 1080 if their display is only 720...and there are an awful lot of 720 displays out there. And many of them display quite good picture quality.

One does not need a 1080p signal if their display is 720, and the deinterlacing can be performed easily by any quality display.

24 Hz only becomes problematic, or necessary, in a small amount of people's theaters.

In a perfect world, perhaps we could avoid the redundancy (and related cost) of 1080p if all players were 1080i, and all displays were 1080p native, but sadly, we do not live in a perfect world. :)

So basically the argument has turned into:

HDDVD was cheaper but provided none of the HD features the format was designed to provide. But that is ok because its good for people who are not using the features anyway.

This is the mentality I do not understand at all.

[Johnd]

If you are not going to run 1080p with HD audio why buy an HD player when you will be fine with DVD?

I agree in principle Dezoris..but at what cost, and is it necessary?

Some people's vision is not all that good...or they're not discerning enough for 1080p. 720p on a 40" display is more than adequate at 10 or 12 feet. Heck, some think it's the cat's meow at 5 feet. :p And all 1080p is not equal. There are some 720p displays that appear better than some 1080p displays. And although HD audio is not present on SD, a properly upscaled SD is phenomenal in pq. I guess my position is there are many variables, and the different formats and resolutions is nothing new...really. It's more of the same old, same old, in a different package. I'm not telling you this (just kind of speaking out loud here), but this stuff is not created in a vacuum. Players, formats, displays etc., are developed by people all over the globe, and at different times. It may be nice to get all the brightest minds (engineers, designers) together with the best technology with the best manufacturer, but that is the double-edged sword of capitalism (competition). You get more, and lots of it, and it can appear disconcerted and sporadic because it's coming from here, there, and everywhere. Hopefully we'll get it together one of these days. But I have to say, I am loving my 70 HD movies on my three HD players on a large glass bead screen with True thumping through my servo 15...no complaints here. I'm a happy camper. Enjoy your weekend Dezoris. :)

[JackT]

If you are not going to run 1080p with HD audio why buy an HD player when you will be fine with DVD?

Gonna have to disagree somewhat with that. My TV is only 720p, but I absolutely get a benefit with HD content over 480p. 480p can look pretty good, though.

[Johnd]

So basically the argument has turned into:

HDDVD was cheaper but provided none of the HD features the format was designed to provide. But that is ok because its good for people who are not using the features anyway.

This is the mentality I do not understand at all.

I am not wanting of anything on my HD. I watch the movie, and listen to the track. Missing? I don't know what is, and I don't want to. 1080p/24Hz on a 120" glass bead screen with True thumping through a servo 15 and Studio 100's is where it's at...for me. Honestly, I rarely, if ever look at extras and features in movies...I rather watch another movie. Ironically, I was just watching the extras in Bullitt HD the other night. Pretty interesting, but not enough to make me watch it in its entirety. I flicked it off about halfway through. I say, give me another movie over extras and features anytime. But that's just me. I guess I'm easily pleased. :p;) Cheers, John

[Johnd]

Gonna have to disagree somewhat with that. My TV is only 720p, but I absolutely get a benefit with HD content over 480p. 480p can look pretty good, though.

Beat you to it Jack in my previous post. ;)

I agree with you 100% (that 720p is somehow automatically inferior...it is not).

[JackT]

VHS players in 1978. (Crappy VHS still expensive? CARTEL! The market is broken!)
-CD players in 1984. (Too expensive! The consumer will never adopt these! Run for the hills FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!)
-DVD players in 1997. (Players still cost too much!! CAPITALISM NOT WORKING!!!)
-MP3 players in 1998. (How much for a crappy 512MB???? PRICE FIXING AT WORK!!! CONSUMER GETTING screwed!!!)

Please correct me if I am wrong, the above formats are classified as 'open source' whereas Blur Ray is proprietary, hence little impetuous from the manufactures to achieve economies of scale to reduce street prices.


I believe there are licensing consortia for the CD & DVD formats to whom a fee must be paid to produce a disc. No different that Bluray. (Not sure what licensing is for CD & DVD players, though.)

It amazes me that, no matter how many times the market proves its ability to produce very cheap and high quality consumer electronics goodies, we are still always ready to believe that THIS time it won't work, and the laws of supply/demand will be ignored for some sinister reason. When people aren't accusing manufacturers of being greedy, they are accusing them of not really wanting your dollar.

Count on this: somebody will find a way to do whatever it takes to get you to buy one of these things, and make money doing it.That means cheap manufacturing and low prices.

[JackT]

Beat you to it Jack in my previous post. ;)

I agree with you 100% (that 720p is somehow automatically inferior...it is not).

On a 50" at my viewing distance, 720p is close to as good as you can see. However, I REALLY want a 60" so.........

[ParkerAudio]

You guys know the war is over right?
I don't see why this article is at all controversial. Bottom line, Bluray has got the consumer by the balls right now. What are you going to do about it? If you want HD movies and want a physical copy it is the only game in town.

[Jim Robbins]

So many replies!! What do I say first...

Microsoft is Awesome! I love them. Bow to Bill! *laugh* Just kidding... It's true, MS doesn't always do the best in the hardware arena. I do like gaming on my 360 better than my PS3, even though I am on my second unit. There's something about Microsoft's Achievement system that draws me in. Yeah, that's a software feature, but a nice one. MS is about software...

The PS3 works great for BD movies. And I have one of those IR receiver things (acquired with a Nyko remote) and I have had a lot of trouble programming my Harmony remote to get that thing to work correctly. It's about an 80% solution at this point. Again, the average guy won't want to spend $400 on a game console, nor does he want a game controller for his remote. He certainly doesn't want an 80% solution. Nor does he want an expensive solution that's 100% effective!

Don't worry, I was complaining about the cost of HD DVD back when it was more expensive. This hardware dumping stuff is great! Yeah, it's nice when hardware vendor's lose money and it benefits me!!! *laugh* But of course, the lack of money doesn't drive anyone to make anything better. It's just frustrating that this stuff costs a lot, when we have all the technology to do better with less bugs and more features.

I guess I am going to have to build myself some kind of HTPC and reprogram the whole dang thing from scratch! What needs to be done:

1. Cheap, like $199 for the unit.
2. Fully featured, like the HD DVD spec or BD 2.0
3. Lots of space on a disc. Heck, lets just jump up to 1TB. :-P
4. Fast. None of this 45 seconds to boot up, crap!

Anyone have a few hundred million bucks they want to throw at the project? Or, perhaps some technology from a crashed alien space craft?

Later!!

[dobyblue]

Or, perhaps some technology from a crashed alien space craft?
Later!!

Tom Cruise might be able to help you there!

[allargon]

You will only hear the HDDVD adopters crying about Blu-Ray prices.
(Some Audioholics staff)
They went with Microsoft and got the shaft, should have known better.

Secondly the PS3 price has gone down which should be the only first generation BluRay player anyone should buy until we have 2.0 spec standalone players being sold off the shelf.

Nope. I complained about prices on both formats over a year ago--check crave. I still feel that for $600 a player should play SACD, DVD-A, Blu-Ray profile 2.0 AND record. It's pretty sad when a gaming console is as closet as it comes to that. The PS3 at least added DivX and WMV playback, so it's not entirely a bad thing.

[Alamar]

Hmm....

-- To the fan boys on both sides [myself included]: Get over it. Let's just, as a group and individually, try to make the best out of the situation.

-- As I've pointed out in several threads the price increase isn't surprising. It's a simple supply vs. demand issue.

-- To those people who think that the BD camp don't have the customer's [our] best interests in mind ... You're right. The companies are doing what they think is best for themselves. While I don't like it from a consumer POV if I was an executive, in the short term, I would likely do the same thing.

[Jim Robbins]

-- To those people who think that the BD camp don't have the customer's [our] best interests in mind ... You're right. The companies are doing what they think is best for themselves. While I don't like it from a consumer POV if I was an executive, in the short term, I would likely do the same thing.

Yeah, if I was a big international company, I'd be greedy and try to make a lot of money at the expense of my customers, too. That's what the stock holders want. That's what would pay my over-the-top executive salary.

But of course, I am the greedy consumer, who wants to have it all for virtually nothing... Penny's on the dollar at the expense of that previously mentioned company!!

Really, is there some middle ground? Is there a good feature set and a fair price to be had? Can't we just all get along?

Never mind... I am still greedy... Where's that cheap HD audio and video player with the low cost movies already.... :D

[Alamar]

I don't really think that it's an issue of greed per-se it's just common sense economics.

For example if your [short term] maximum capacity to build units is just 3K units you are ablidged [all other things being equal] to sell those 3K units for however much you can get for them.

In the long term if you see a lot of demand for lower priced units then it would be worth your while to increase production capacity to meet that unfilled demand. This would tend to increase supply and hopefully drive down prices. Even with the increased supply though you'll still want to price your units as high as you can to maximize profits. [All other things being equal].

The only thing that would throw a kink into my plan would be if the manufacturers realized that they have to kill off not just HD-DVD but also basic DVD. The price competition there would be dramatic and is our best chance to see cheaper players soon. [Seeing that the Sony CEO implied that they weren't licensing BR to the cheaper manufacturers] ...

[PENG]

So basically the argument has turned into:

HDDVD was cheaper but provided none of the HD features the format was designed to provide. But that is ok because its good for people who are not using the features anyway.

This is the mentality I do not understand at all.

I am confused, please help! I thought the A30 and A35 can do 1080p/24 and the A35 can do all the HD sound formats plus it has 5.1 analog outputs.

BTW, I thought BD owner who paid high prices naturally feel better now that they see HD DVD die. HD DVD early adopters (some) may have reason to cry because they paid high prices just like the BD owners but at least the BD owners can count on continous supply of BD movies. I do think people who bought HD DVD players at fire sale prices with free movies are the winners because those players have very decent upconverters for SD DVDs.

[Johnd]

I am confused, please help! I thought the A30 and A35 can do 1080p/24 and the A35 can do all the HD sound formats plus it has 5.1 analog outputs.

BTW, I thought BD owner who paid high prices naturally feel better now that they see HD DVD die. HD DVD early adopters (some) may have reason to cry because they paid high prices just like the BD owners but at least the BD owners can count on continous supply of BD movies. I do think people who bought HD DVD players at fire sale prices with free movies are the winners because those players have very decent upconverters for SD DVDs.

Spoken like one who knows. ;)

[Nomo]

You guys know the war is over right?
I don't see why this article is at all controversial. Bottom line, Bluray has got the consumer by the balls right now. What are you going to do about it? If you want HD movies and want a physical copy it is the only game in town.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Who here is actually surprised by the temporary spike in the BD players?
It is " the only game in town" as far as HD content is concerned anyway.
Unfortunately for Bluray, they still need to take on the DVD format.
What am I going to do about it?
As a HD DVD owner, I'll sit back and watch for a while. At least until the BD player prices drop below $200. Maybe not even then. I'm about out of shelf space, and the last thing I need is another White Elephant taking up space.

[stratman]

Blu-ray is facing the fight for it's life, the economy, the market, VOD.

1. The slowing economy removes CE from J6P's list of needs.

2. High prices coupled with item number 1, will stagnate any possible growth
for BD to expand into mass market.

3. Though plagued with issues, VOD is making ripples and young consumers
that can't afford BD players see it as an excellent option to expensive
hardware/software at any price point.

Will BD survive? For the time being. It needs to get into over-drive mode, slash software/hardware prices, start consumer "education" campaigns, if none of these issues get worked out, BD will be relegated to a niche market with a very short life span.

[mouettus]

DVD was not the only media offered? Still the price god down and down with time. So it has nothing to do with a war, with being "the only one in town".

btw i saw a couple dvd movies with a blu-ray intro that explained what it is and it was unskippable. So I guess they are making an effort at saying: "hey dvd people, you can have better" ... but give us your hard earned bucks. Buy that 600$ player that can't decode HD audio formats, buy a 150$ HDMI cable, buy 35$/pop movies, and then enjoy.

It's not a bad format at all. It got off to a bad start and still struggling and will eventually die faster than it should because of this exact same reason. Even being a person who doesn't care to shell a little more than others for technology, the thing I hate the most about hi-def is that it took me months to fully understand picture formats, resolutions, 24fps, 3:2 pulldown, hdmi versions, audio formats, internal/external decoding, yadda yadda. Can't they just put out a box that you plug in and everything works like dvd did at first?! And then just upgrade the reliability instead of "profiles".

They shot themselves in the foot there. All they do is put duck tape here and there to patch.

I would definitly love to rent my movies on a flash memory card. That would be awesome. No scratches, plenty of space, re-usable, less fragile hardware-wise, cheaper to make - lower prices.

I use my PS3 for rented movies and it's all I care. They lost my trust, price spike or not.

[deanmurphy]

All I can say with all this talk about pricing is that anyone who lives in the United States of America is amongst the luckiest in the world as far as pricing goes. Here in Australia (and I see it happens to some extent in the UK too) we get ripped off by the CE companies and other companies too. Thats why more people are beginning to order on Amazon.com and also import from overseas from other sources. When I look at pricing for CE equipment Australian RRP is usually about DOUBLE the U.S. price. Several years ago I found that acceptable as our dollar wasn't worth much more than 50 cents U.S. but our dollar now is almost worth the same as yours on the stock market and STILL our prices are double. A small example is the Harmony One remote. RRP here is $400.00. I can order this from the U.S. for 250.00 and still be way ahead after postage costs. Usually if a DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player etc costs $800.00 in the U.S. it will be at least $1,500.00 here. Not sure if this will change. It hasn't yet. Unless someone knows something I don't I just cant see the justification in this.

Sorry for the rant,

Dean.

[Johnd]

All I can say with all this talk about pricing is that anyone who lives in the United States of America is amongst the luckiest in the world

Thank you for reminding us of that Dean. It is far too easy to forget at times.

As far as current HD DVD pricing, you have the best pricing in the world right now...at least as far as about half of the HD titles. Electronic pricing can be all over the board. But you're just a hop, skip and and a jump from Japan, so it's convenient for Aussies to cash in on some of those deals. But I know what your saying...I know a number of people from Oz (and Tasmania). You have a great country in your own right. Cheers, John

[deanmurphy]

I suppose I should not feel too ripped off. I do live in the better country! I should not take that for granted. Thanks for the reminder! (Actually just kidding!!!! Really!!!! My aunty is American. I would actually love to visit your country one day. Especially New York, Nashville and San Francisco. Out of the whole entire world though I want to do Canada and Alaska, that is my dream).

[rgriffin25]

All you guys who are saying "when Blu-ray gets to $xxx.xx I'll consider buying one" are full of crap! Let me explain... Most if not all of you own nice A/V equipment, and your trying to tell us that the BD players are too expensive?? Lets see here... a certain member here has 120" screen, Velodyne DD-15 subwoofer, Paradigm Speakers, Denon Receiver and cannot afford a $400 BD player? Do you guys really want to buy the consumer / walmart quality players when they come out? Oh wait I know what you will do... Buy the newly released Denon BD player for $600.

Lets be honest guys, here are some legitimate reasons you do not want a blu-ray player.

1. Profile 2.0 / BD live. I can see how this profile could have its advantages.

2. Lack of internal HD/lossless audio decoding of all formats. (I'll agree with you on this arguement, talk about a frustrating time trying to get the most out of your new player)

And the most obvious reason...

3. Sour Grapes i.e. trying to start arguements with us BD player owners about why our format won't survive.

My response for this is simple. Guys, I am sorry your format lost. :(:(

[Johnd]

Hah! LOL!!!

That's a good post rgriffin, but after reading it I'm not sure which side is to have the "sour grapes," BD or HD owners? :p;)

You may be referring to me, as I have all of that equipment (except I have a servo 15, not a DD18 ;)). And my comment was, is and always will be:
- when they get it right I may consider buying into BD
- I only bought into HD because of the pricepoint...wasn't even in the market til the sales began...and then the firesales began on the players.

Last time I was at a b&m store, all of the BD titles were full msrp (except two), and their cheapest player was $400.00 No thanks. I wasn't born with a silver spoon, and I work for my money. Too rich for my blood. On the other hand, getting two A35's and 70 HD discs for about $800 was a no brainer, particularly since my old Denon player had just died.

Sorry? Sour Grapes? Detest BD? Never. Would I like BD to be close to this pricepoint? Yes. But why would I bite the hand that has fed me? That is, were it not because of these cheap prices (initially competition, then due to HD's downfall) I never would have been introduced to HD, and I never would have gotten two flagship players and 70 disc for $800.

Sour grapes is non-HD owners disavowing HD owner's joy in great prices in hardware and software. I'm not here to rub anybody's face in it, especially now that most of the deals are expired, but I've been challenged more than once on my purchase prices. Funny thing is, that invariably comes from non-HD owners: the price drops were advertised all over the board and the forums and the retailers sites. How could the inquirer not know that? Becuase they're not in the market for HD. But then, why would they be challenging me on the prices I've paid? :o

I would not have gotten into HD were it not for the terrific pricing. Other members here have stated the same (Birdonthebeach so stated). And I have never looked back. And for the time being, not remotely in the market for BD. Why would I be? I have two flagship players, and titles are still being sold at heavily discounted prices. I'm a pea in a pod. :p:)

[patnshan]

1. Profile 2.0 / BD live. I can see how this profile could have its advantages.

2. Lack of internal HD/lossless audio decoding of all formats. (I'll agree with you on this arguement, talk about a frustrating time trying to get the most out of your new player)

And the most obvious reason...

3. Sour Grapes i.e. trying to start arguements with us BD player owners about why our format won't survive.

My response for this is simple. Guys, I am sorry your format lost. :(:(



How about many of us got into HD media when we could purchase the player for $200 with 8 free movies and would love to do the same with Blu Ray. To purchase a player in the $300 range without any free movies with the picture quality and sound we are used to already with HD DVD is too much to ask? Maybe it is but it is not sour grapes, rolleyes:.

For me, the real sticking pount is #1 and #2. You lost me with #3. I could care less what format wins as long as the price of entry is "reasonable". I don't like Sony but am willing to live with them. Heck, I don't like oil companies either but have to buy their gas. Obviously, reasonable is in the eye of the beholder but I suspect that most folks think $400 to $500 for a player than cannot do everything that a given format offers is too much. They were willing to sacrifice a bit with a $100 to $200 player, but not twice that. I will likely suck it up and buy a PS3 for $299 but not without some trepidation.

Pat


Pat

[Johnd]

Sour Grapes


How about many of us got into HD media when we could purchase the player for $200 with 8 free movies and would love to do the same with Blu Ray. To purchase a player in the $300 range without any free movies with the picture quality and sound we are used to already with HD DVD is too much to ask? Maybe it is but it is not sour grapes, rolleyes:.

For me, the real sticking pount is #1 and #2. You lost me with #3. I could care less what format wins as long as the price of entry is "reasonable". I don't like Sony but am willing to live with them. Heck, I don't like oil companies either but have to buy their gas. Obviously, reasonable is in the eye of the beholder but I suspect that most folks think $400 to $500 for a player than cannot do everything that a given format offers is too much. They were willing to sacrifice a bit with a $100 to $200 player, but not twice that. I will likely suck it up and buy a PS3 for $299 but not without some trepidation.

Pat


Pat


Likewise Pat. I don't know if he just got kicked out of the house, or was drunk when he wrote that post :p;), but apparently rgriffin hasn't read our posts (and birdonthebeach's and others).

I for one never stated that I "could not afford a $400 BD player," but like you and botb I stated that the thing that prompted me to get into HD was $150 hardware and $10-$15 software. Plain and simple. Wasn't even in the market until the deals came around. Posted as much repeatedly. Must have been in invisible ink. :p

And then to be further discounted by the statement:
"All you guys who are saying "when Blu-ray gets to $xxx.xx I'll consider buying one" are full of crap!"
is well, just rude. :p Why would I lie? If it's still around, I may buy into BD when it hits $150 hardware for a decent player and $10-$15 software because HD software is inevitably going to dry up. That's not to say my existing titles turn to vapor, but if the difference between an SD and a BD title is a mere $5, I'll opt for the latter.

And then Mr. Griffin proposes the only options for us lowly HD owners is the cheapy Walmart special, or a mid/high class Denon. Sheeesh. Hardly. And then he brashly accuses us of picking fights with the poor, downtrodden BD owners, so they have to call in teacher (a moderator) :p to finish the fight for them. Sheeesh. :p;)

Sour Grapes?


It's pretty obvious who has 'em! :p;)

[PENG]

And the most obvious reason...

3. Sour Grapes i.e. trying to start arguements with us BD player owners about why our format won't survive.

My response for this is simple. Guys, I am sorry your format lost. :(:(

I bought my HD DVD players after the "format lost", for a total of less than $220 with 2 players and 9 movies. It seems to me this sour grapes thing might apply more to people (may be youself?) who, deep down, feel they had paid more, for less.:D

[patnshan]

Sour Grapes





Likewise Pat. I don't know if he just got kicked out of the house, or was drunk when he wrote that post :p;), but apparently rgriffin hasn't read our posts (and birdonthebeach's and others).

Sour Grapes?


It's pretty obvious who has 'em! :p;)

I don't know, I'm reading this on 3 glasses of Aussie Shiraz and understand you fully!:D And I can say with some authority that the grapes used to make this Tapestry Shiraz are not sour! Yes this is an endorsement;)
Thanks,
Pat

[rgriffin25]

While I enjoy your humor guys, I hate to disappoint.. But, the format I decided to go with WON. No Sour Grapes here! I don't have the necessity to run out and buy all the HD DVDs I can find before they disappear. Which brings me to this question, are there really 80 HD DVDs worth owning??

The point I was trying to make was for most of us $400 is a drop in the bucket compared to everything else we have invested into our home theater.

As far as the Walmart BD player... Most if not all of us Audioholics refuse to buy electronics at Walmart. So to say you are going to buy the 1st BD player that hits $150 saying your more concerned with price than quality. Which is ironic after seeing what you guys have invested in your current rig.

Im sure we could go on and on but I have some movies I'd like to go watch. Thought I would check out "3:10 to Yuma", "Sunshine", and "I am Legend".

[Johnd]

Sour Grapes?


I don't know, I'm reading this on 3 glasses of Aussie Shiraz and understand you fully!:D And I can say with some authority that the grapes used to make this Tapestry Shiraz are not sour! Yes this is an endorsement;)
Thanks,
Pat


Of course you can Pat! :) Some of that good Shiraz from Oz coupled with the crystal wisdom granted only to us HD bretheren does it every time. ;)
Enjoy your evening.

[Johnd]

While I enjoy your humor guys, I hate to disappoint.. But, the format I decided to go with WON. No Sour Grapes here! I don't have the necessity to run out and buy all the HD DVDs I can find before they disappear. Which brings me to this question, are there really 80 HD DVDs worth owning??

The point I was trying to make was for most of us $400 is a drop in the bucket compared to everything else we have invested into our home theater.

As far as the Walmart BD player... Most if not all of us Audioholics refuse to buy electronics at Walmart. So to say you are going to buy the 1st BD player that hits $150 saying your more concerned with price than quality. Which is ironic after seeing what you guys have invested in your current rig.

Im sure we could go on and on but I have some movies I'd like to go watch. Thought I would check out "3:10 to Yuma", "Sunshine", and "I am Legend".

Meh. Didn't care much for Legend Mr. Griffin. Gonna go watch 300 and Beowulf tonight myself (in HD). ;)

[rgriffin25]

Meh. Didn't care much for Legend Mr. Griffin. Gonna go watch 300 and Beowulf tonight myself (in HD). ;)

Touche sir Johnd, you had to pull out Beowulf... :(

[Johnd]

Touche sir Johnd, you had to pull out Beowulf... :(

Yes...Beowulf is reference quality cgi. :)

But here's another thing that makes the deal sweeter for HD owners who bought from BB. They are automatically sending out $50 gift cards to all stand alone HD purchasers (bought prior to 2-23-08). They are also now offering a trade in offer HD for BD...no thanks. I'll take the $50...practically makes mine free. ;) Sour grapes? SWEET VICTORY!!! :D

[bancroft]

I've read the complete list of comments and felt inclined to jump in.

I am happy that Blu Ray will be the method we will use to watch and listen to hi def. I didn't say "win" because this is not appropriate. I, like so many others, simply want to watch and listen to the best that we can and within all of our respective budgets. Sorry, no more, no less. It's that simple.

But, if there is not widespread acceptance, our "Blu" lives will be short live. Sure, we're early adopters, but this needs broader appeal to succeed.

I help a lot of friends with their buying decisions because they need help from someone they trust. When they watch my hi def picture during "movie night" at my house, they DON'T ask me what player I have or if its Blu or HD. They ask, "how much will that cost if I install this on my system". I tell them the player costs and the cost premium for the Hi Def DVD's and they say no thanks. It's not worth it.

This is Blu's and our, my friends, biggest problem. It's not the lack of 2.0 or hi def DTS MA. They like it but they're not going to spend that much!

The day after Thanksgiving, I got in line at an electronics store for a friend to by a non HD product. HDDVD players were aggressively priced for a short period of time, "while they last". Their were very few "early adopters" in this line but the people were commical to me as they spoke of their purchase of a "cheap" hddvd player even though they were clueless as to what its capabilities were. They were buying on price.

If players stay at $400 and above, then we will suffer because the "blu" window of opportunity will be lost and the hype will also go away. By also having players priced at $1,000 and up, many of these next tier buyers get the feeling they might be buying a product that is missing something. If they feel strongly, they may wait thinking more can be had for less if they wait.

This is our problem. As a point of reference, I'm not too concerned with price but I want to spend my money on something that works and gives me a decent run before I need to replace it.

I own a Sony "ruby", Stewert 130 "100 inches" and a Pioneer 50" elite plasma so give me a decent product. I'll sell the benefits to my friends. But you MUST make it affordable to the next tier of buyer.

Thanks and have a nice day.

[Clint DeBoer]

Blu-ray has the capability of being a simple transport with newer AV receivers equipped with HDMI. With this being the case, I see no reason why someone can't offer a line of very inexpensive players that handle all the new formats and have only a power, HDMI and Ethernet connection on the back by Christmas. Nothing else.

By all means make the others as well, but a line of inexpensive Blu-ray transports would be a good thing for the market.

[Nimrod]

Lenny Kraritz

[dobyblue]

By all means make the others as well, but a line of inexpensive Blu-ray transports would be a good thing for the market.

According to Warren News (http://www.warren-news.com/CEservices.htm) and Consumer Electronics Daily, Wal*Mart are expected to have the Funai-made Sylvania player on their shelves for no more than $249 by Q3/08, so what that price will be over the last fortnight or so before Christmas, and on Black Friday, is anyone's guess, but less than $249 would be a starting point.

This will support bitstreaming of all the audio formats, ethernet port and Bonus View, as well as HDMI 1.3.

If players stay at $400 and above

They absolutely will not. It doesn't really matter what happens over the course of the next few months, it is Q3 and Q4 that will be very telling for whether or not Blu-ray has a chance of being mass market adopted. By that time both Paramount and Universal (as well as Weinstein) will be releasing on Blu-ray and the consumer market will be there for the taking. Now we just have to wait and see.

Universal won't get anything out on Blu (they were pretty caught out) until this Summer, which means two of their biggest movies, The Incredible Hulk and Hellboy 2, will see the light of 1080p24.

:)

[Davidt1]

Just got back from Fry's and BB. More and more BR titles are selling for $15. I saw some people buying BR stuff. I hate to say it but it appears that BR is here to stay. It will take off big time once players sell for around $200.

[allargon]

Blu-ray has the capability of being a simple transport with newer AV receivers equipped with HDMI. With this being the case, I see no reason why someone can't offer a line of very inexpensive players that handle all the new formats and have only a power, HDMI and Ethernet connection on the back by Christmas. Nothing else.

By all means make the others as well, but a line of inexpensive Blu-ray transports would be a good thing for the market.

Clint, I'm not sure where you've been. However, Denon plans to do just such a thing this spring. Well, they forgot about the Ethernet connection. It's only a profile 1.1 player. :mad: Moreover, it's $1k.

http://www.usa.denon.com/beyond/products/DVD-2500BTCI.html

The cheaper Toshiba and Venturer players had the right idea of forgoing multichannel audio outputs (heresy here).

Just got back from Fry's and BB. More and more BR titles are selling for $15. I saw some people buying BR stuff. I hate to say it but it appears that BR is here to stay. It will take off big time once players sell for around $200.

Are you sure those aren't the same people that always show up for a sale? It's been a good while since there's been a decent sale on Blu-Ray media. With this and the Target BOGO, people decided to show up again. I do agree that sales will take off once players come below $200.

[Clint DeBoer]

Clint, I'm not sure where you've been. However, Denon plans to do just such a thing this spring. Well, they forgot about the Ethernet connection. It's only a profile 1.1 player. :mad: Moreover, it's $1k. Comedy GOLD my friend! lol