Plasma TV is Dead - Pioneer Exits

[admin]

You heard it here first: Plasma TV is dead. As we predicted several years ago, plasma technology is on its way out. Putting one of the nails in the lengthy coffin is Pioneer Corp, who is stopping ALL production of plasma display panels. Last week we reported that they had decided to stop all 42-inch panel production, however that has now been expanded to its entire plasma line. Rather than panic, Pioneer shares immediately jumped to a four-month high following the report - up 11.2 percent. Pioneer is the world's fifth-largest plasma TV manufacturer and has constantly struggled for relevance against the larger Panasonic brand (Matsushita). Now, Pioneer will buy its panels from the competing brand and it will begin picking up LCD panels from... you guessed it - Sharp.
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Discuss "Plasma TV is Dead - Pioneer Exits" here. Read the article (http://www.audioholics.com/news/industry-news/plasma-tv-is-dead).

[Davidt1]

It's rather sad, actually. It's just another case of inferior technologies winning mass market acceptance.

[stratman]

It's obvious why this happened. They shot themselves in the foot, by being perceived as "high-end" in a market that sees the high end shrinking only to an elite (no pun intended) few. Panasonic's efforts were smarter from a business point of view, bring a high quality product to market, make a smaller profit per unit, but clean up in volume, and they've done this to a Tee. Inch per inch Pio's TVs are the most expensive and the PQ difference isn't that great to warrant the prices they were asking. The KURO line at a better price point would have mopped the floor with Panny, but alas it tain't so sheriff. As for plasma exiting the market, well, LCD still has light years to catch up in PQ before it can best color rendition offered by plasma.

It has been rumored for the longest time that Panny was looking to leave the plasma market behind, but after billions of dollars in tech investments, that rumor might just be that, a rumor.

[obscbyclouds]

This is pretty dissapointing. I was planning on a nice 50" Plasma for my next display. I really am not fond of LCD's for critical viewing. Maybe they'll have some nice Plasma fire sales? :confused:

[stratman]

I really don't think plasmas are dead yet, I think Panny will be in it for the long haul.

[Wayde Robson]

OH NO YOU DIh-ENT!

Don't mess with MY plasma!

Actually I can see the truth to the story. Although I personally love plasma technology and own a plasma (by Panasonic) myself. In its price range and size it clearly won me from competing LCD panels.

Yes, I suppose I do see the current generation of plasma as superior to LCD in picture quality. Since we now know plasma burn-in is a myth there is no real drawback.

Except of course - heat and energy efficiency. But in terms of contrast and pixel 'rise-fall' speed, LCD is still playing catch up.

No, I'm not a plasma fan-boy. I really don't care which is superior, based on the information available I see plasma as the one.

[Pyrrho]

It's rather sad, actually. It's just another case of inferior technologies winning mass market acceptance.

Let's see, comparing plasma with LCD, LCD uses less power, generates less heat, is lighter weight, is better for viewing in lighted rooms (which is how most people view), zero chance of "burn in"...how do you come to the conclusion that an "inferior" technology won? In my case, the absolute determinant was the "burn in" issue, as I hate distorted and cropped images, and watch quite a bit of material that is not 16:9. So I often have black bars for hours at a time. And for those who say, "burn in is no longer an issue with plasma", I say, I will believe that when manufacturers give warranties against burn in. If the makers of the screen admit the fault, I will continue to believe them, because if it were really not an issue, they would want to brag about it as it would help sales. I have seen burn in on a screen before, and it isn't pretty.

Anyway, Panasonic will probably continue with plasma for a while, and you can still get a Pioneer in the stores, if you really want a plasma screen. Eventually, though, I expect plasma will die. I doubt many, if any, will be made 10 years from now. And it may die sooner; perhaps in 5 years it will all be over for plasma, but we will see.

[stratman]

Well from personal experience and use I can tell you that my soon to be 5 year old Panny plasma hasn't suffered any maladies, and my kid leaves it on for hours at a time with the black bands and what have you, screen looks as good as when it was installed. My newer lcd in my master is crap and the PQ doesn't come close to the Panny's.

[allargon]

LCD became the de facto format due to its smaller form factor. At equal sizes, plasma is cheaper than LCD. However, LCD's come as small as 9" diagonally. Plasmas generally bottom out around 32 (really 42) inches. Therefore, a lot of people bought smaller LCD's. I know a lot of people (raises hand) with 37" or smaller LCD's that they bought for less than $1k.

All the FUD about burn-in and image retention didn't help plasma. Moreover, the not at all FUD issue about power consumption is another one.

LCD is still a visually inferior technology to CRT, plasma and (yes, I'm saying it) DLP. It's going to come out on top. Flat panel sexy is in except for enthusiasts with projectors. They're in the minority. I figured plasma would outlast RP DLP. We'll see.

[Hi Ho]

Wow, I was not expecting this. It is very dissapointing. I wouldn't buy an LCD as my main set for any amount of money. They just can't compete. I really hope Panasonic sticks with it. Maybe they'll even make a deal with Pioneer and adopt some of the techniques that made Kuro so wonderful.

[Jim Robbins]

Since we now know plasma burn-in is a myth there is no real drawback.


Well, it's not really a myth. It's just difficult to burn in plasma screens these days. For example, I have a coworker who recently bought a 50" Panasonic plasma. This was less than 6 months ago, so it isn't one of the older models. His wife was playing some kids cartoon for their children, then she paused it for whatever reason and forgot about it. When he got home from a business trip the following evening, it was still on the screen. He unpaused it, and of course, there was a ghost of the previous cartoon still on the screen. He wasn't too happy. The next day he came in to work, and he was still pretty worked up. He has played some noise patterns for hours at a time to reduce the burn it. I think it has eventually since faded to the virtually undetectable level. But still, burn in can happen. So, I recommend NOT pausing bright cartoons with hard edges for over 24 hours on you plasma tvs, even if they are pretty new. *grin*

[autoboy]

So why does everyone want these super thin displays? I just don't understand the consumer's reasoning. I am perfectly happy with my 60" rear projection SXRD that I got for $1500 vs the $3000 - $5000 flatscreens. If I'm putting it on a 2' deep cabinet, who cares how think it is? Most of America is so fat they can't fit through a door, do they feel like their slim TV makes up for their fast food addiction?

I think plasmas are on their way out for several key reasons.
1. Cost - the primary reason LCD is more popular is because a comparable LCD is cheaper to build, and thus, cheaper to the consumer.
2. Screen Size - most displays sold today are no bigger than 42" and plasmas do not make $ at less than 50" right now. 42" sounds huge to the average consumer but the screen real estate is really no bigger than their old 36" CRT. Eventually bigger sizes will become more popular. I believe 50" is just about the perfect screen size for most homes.
3. Weight - plasmas weigh a ton compared to the LCD and this is a major concern for people who also believe in thin TVs. Thin is in.

One notable exception here is quality. It matters little in a society that still believes that stretched 4:3 content looks fine. As we all know here too well, quality is ignored until the salesman tries to sell you monster cables. You can make up for a bad off brand TV with quality cables. The packaging says so!

[croseiv]

Well, it's not really a myth. It's just difficult to burn in plasma screens these days. For example, I have a coworker who recently bought a 50" Panasonic plasma. This was less than 6 months ago, so it isn't one of the older models. His wife was playing some kids cartoon for their children, then she paused it for whatever reason and forgot about it. When he got home from a business trip the following evening, it was still on the screen. He unpaused it, and of course, there was a ghost of the previous cartoon still on the screen. He wasn't too happy. The next day he came in to work, and he was still pretty worked up. He has played some noise patterns for hours at a time to reduce the burn it. I think it has eventually since faded to the virtually undetectable level. But still, burn in can happen. So, I recommend NOT pausing bright cartoons with hard edges for over 24 hours on you plasma tvs, even if they are pretty new. *grin*

Seems like a bizarre and rather unusual occurance really.

[Pyrrho]

LCD became the de facto format due to its smaller form factor. At equal sizes, plasma is cheaper than LCD. However, LCD's come as small as 9" diagonally. Plasmas generally bottom out around 32 (really 42) inches. Therefore, a lot of people bought smaller LCD's. I know a lot of people (raises hand) with 37" or smaller LCD's that they bought for less than $1k.

All the FUD about burn-in and image retention didn't help plasma. Moreover, the not at all FUD issue about power consumption is another one.

LCD is still a visually inferior technology to CRT, plasma and (yes, I'm saying it) DLP. It's going to come out on top. Flat panel sexy is in except for enthusiasts with projectors. They're in the minority. I figured plasma would outlast RP DLP. We'll see.

I think you are oversimplifying things. If I compare my LCD with my old CRT, the blacks are better with the CRT. But the picture geometry is better with my LCD (that is, straight lines are very, very straight, even into the corners). And the tint on my LCD TV is as good as I have ever seen on any TV. Using a test disc with a pattern with color bars and the flashing boxes of color, when I look through the special blue filter, the boxes are completely invisible with the default center "zero" setting on the tint control on the TV. It just can't get any better than that.

Each type of TV has its virtues and its vices. There is no such thing as a perfect TV, or one that is the best in every way. It is all a question of which virtues and vices one cares to live with. If black level is your only concern, then LCD (both direct view and rear projection) is probably going to be judged by you to be one of the worst. If off-axis viewing is your only concern, then rear projection is probably going to be judged by you to be one of the worst. And if "burn in" matters most to you, then you will probably judge plasma to be one of the worst (followed by CRT). It really is simply a matter of what vices one can live with, and the idea that there is one best type for all people, given the various faults they all have, is ridiculous.

There are some people for whom each of the various current possibilities is the "best" choice. It depends upon budget, size of TV desired, the room in which it will be viewed (both size and ambient light matter for this), one's viewing habits, and it also depends upon which imperfections bother one the most. For a lot of people, LCD is the right choice, though certainly not for everyone.

If I had an ideal situation with unlimited funds, I would have some sort of front projector. But since I am renting, a permanent installation is out of the question, and what I would want is beyond my budget.

[Pyrrho]

Well, it's not really a myth. It's just difficult to burn in plasma screens these days. For example, I have a coworker who recently bought a 50" Panasonic plasma. This was less than 6 months ago, so it isn't one of the older models. His wife was playing some kids cartoon for their children, then she paused it for whatever reason and forgot about it. When he got home from a business trip the following evening, it was still on the screen. He unpaused it, and of course, there was a ghost of the previous cartoon still on the screen. He wasn't too happy. The next day he came in to work, and he was still pretty worked up. He has played some noise patterns for hours at a time to reduce the burn it. I think it has eventually since faded to the virtually undetectable level. But still, burn in can happen. So, I recommend NOT pausing bright cartoons with hard edges for over 24 hours on you plasma tvs, even if they are pretty new. *grin*
Seems like a bizarre and rather unusual occurance really.

You think it is bizarre and unusual for someone to forget something and accidentally leave it on? You must not have any contact with humans at all.

[Wayde Robson]

My mom comes to visit once in awhile. When it comes to a/v gear she's pretty clueless. I had to leave for work and she took care of my young son for the day. I reminded her to turn off the TV (almost brand new Panny plasma) when she's done watching.

I come home that night, a little late. Nobody is home, TV is one with a digital cable radio station playing, grey bars on the sides burned into the screen. I was freaking out.

I knew logically the damage was unlikely to be permanent. After playing back normal video for an hour all evidence of the grey bars were gone. It's very VERY difficult to burn-in a plasma these days. But there is no doubt that it probably can happen.

[GlocksRock]

So is LCD going to be the only tv technology in the near future? It seems as though most manufacturers are dropping rear projection sets, and now plasmas are being phased out, what else does that leave? Will Mitsubishi's laser technology come to fruition, and can it compete with LCD?

[westcott]

I think several of you hit the nail on the head. The majority of Joe Shoppers do not even know the technical differences between LCD and Plasma. They just want a "flat panel display" in HD. And, if the mfg's can sell a cheaper set to fill this need, that is what they are going to do.

And yes, Plasmas are superior to LCD panels in almost every category. Contrast, off axis viewing, Depth perception, and black levels.

I will give the slight nod to lcd for brightness and color accuracy, but the latter is rather mute if not in a light controlled environment.

Panasonic made the right business decisions to put them at the top of the heap. Pioneer could not survive on the few that could afford AND appreciate their high level of performance in plasma technology.

[Biggiesized]

This news deserves an expletive "what the ****?!"

I am absolutely stunned by this news. In fact my throat just sank into my stomach. No wonder Pioneer did a behind the doors showing of its 9G panels.

I honestly can't believe this. I first thought this was just re-iterating the news that they were dropping their 42 inch line, but the whole thing?! That's craaaazy! I'm Brian Fellow!

No wonder Tweeter is selling the Elite 50" 768p Kuro for nearly the same price as the closeout PDP-5080HD. You can pick one up for $2300 ($1200 off) while supplies last.

I want to hear official word before I drop some money on the last line of Kuros. This is totally disheartening.

[Jack Hammer]

I recently bought a new 52" LCD. I'm happy with the black levels and colors overall. I still have occasionaly doubts about not getting a plasma. What I least like about lcd's is the way motion is on it. To me it almost seems as if you can see each individual frame, the motion is jerky. I've never seen an lcd that didn't do this.

What drove my decision wasn't the inch slimmer the lcd is or the energy efficiency, it's that I constantly pause movies and go to bed or fall asleep and leave the menu up all night. If there ever was a person who could make a tv with a million to one chance of suffering burn in suffer it, it's me. Unequivocably and without any doubt.

Most people I talk with believe lcd to be the superior type of tv. This is what they've been led to believe either by other uninformed individuals or salespeople or just old fashioned advertising. I'm sure one day it will be a better technology, improvements are coming all the time. Honestly though, I really don't think that Joe Public can tell the slightest bit of difference between the pictures on plasma, lcd, and dlp tvs (both flat panel and projection). That's why they will buy what they're told to get, not what is best.

Jack

[Biggiesized]

Another thing.

The same people that buy LCDs for their brightness levels are probably the same that buy loudly mixed CDs.

If you have a screen burn-in problem, I'd recommend hooking up your desktop or laptop to your flat panel display and running a nice little java app called JScreenFix. It's free and it'll clear up your problem in a jiffy. It can run a variety of patterns, but you should mainly use the white snow pattern.

[Kolia]

Dang!

Oh well, I still love my KURO.

[hodedofome]

Where do people get that lcd is cheaper than plasma? At 50" (which lcd doesn't make) I look at Circuit City and I can get a 720p plasma cheaper than a 47" 1080p LCD. If someone thinks the 1080p 47" LCD looks better than a LG or Panny or Sammy 50" 720p plasma I'll give them a dollar. Maybe they sit 4 feet away...doubtful. No they probably sit 10-12ft away and can't tell a difference, but that's another topic.

If I compare 50" 1080p plasmas to a 52" 1080p LCD the plasmas are cheaper, so it looks to me like both panels are about the same price, 47" 1080p LCD is slightly cheaper than 50" 1080p plasma, and 52" LCD is slightly more expensive than the plasma. This is assuming you can even tell the difference with 1080p at this size and seating distance.

I can burn in my Samsung 50" 768p plasma if I keep something paused on the screen for a few hours, but I can get rid of it lots faster than I can make it. I play Halo 3 on it all the time and my friend with a Sony 50" SXRD swears mine looks better even with half the resolution. Thank goodness for a glossy screen that fools the eye.

Since when does weight become a factor when buying a tv, do people move them around their house daily? My goodness, once I got my plasma on the stand it's staying there like every other house in America.

The only reason I would get an LCD is if I wanted to watch a bunch of daytime stuff in a bright room and I was concerned about glare. However even then your plasma may not show glare depending on the angle of the light coming in. My tv is low to the ground and shows glare from the lamp next to me, my dad's plasma is high above the ground and doesn't show any perceivable glare.

[JackT]

I love my 50" Panny plasma (9UK). People have told me it's the best picture they have ever seen.

I prefer plasma to LCD because of black levels. I expect OLED will eventually become the display of choice, as it outperforms even plasma.

[yettitheman]

Let's see, zero chance of "burn in"

I wouldn't say that. I thought that LCD never burned in until I took a factory tour of a Delphi that happens to run quite a few SMT machines and the LCD screens that control, report and change the way the machine runs, had burn in.
So, yes, they actually can burn-in, however, I haven't had a case personally.
All my problems are stuck pixels :mad:

[yettitheman]

I love my 50" Panny plasma (9UK). People have told me it's the best picture they have ever seen.

I prefer plasma to LCD because of black levels. I expect OLED will eventually become the display of choice, as it outperforms even plasma.

DING DING DING! We have a winner :D

OLED will be fun... it's expensive right now, but just wait.
That or Laser TV's.... mmmm....

[autoboy]

Definitely waiting for OLED with baited breath. I saw the Sony OLED at the Sony store and, while I probably looked retarded with my face 12 inches from the 11" screen, it looked amazing. I only spent $1500 on my 60" Sony SXRD, and I will be ready in 5 years to trade it up.

[JackT]

Definitely waiting for OLED with baited breath. I saw the Sony OLED at the Sony store and, while I probably looked retarded with my face 12 inches from the 11" screen, it looked amazing. I only spent $1500 on my 60" Sony SXRD, and I will be ready in 5 years to trade it up.

Those SXRDs had great PQ.

[rgriffin25]

To say plasma is dead because the 5th largest manufacturer pulls the plug on building their own panels is silly! Lets see last time I checked there were 4 other companies selling the crap out of plasma TVs. So if Panasonic, Samsung, or LG stopped making plasmas this statement might have a bit more truth to it.

No one doubted the quality of Pioneer's Plasmas, the problem is its hard to sell a TV that costs twice as much as its competitors. Just like anything else in the electronic industry quality doesnt always win out over a good price. Why do you think so many people buy the junk poloroid and vizio tvs? PRICE

[JackT]

I wonder if they announced the death of LCD when Sony announced it was getting out of that segment.

[autoboy]

Those SXRDs had great PQ.

Yeah. They have good black levels, color, and brightness. The only thing that bugs me is the silk screen effect. It used to bother me a lot at first, but now that I am used to it I don't see it. Still, even when I am not aware of it, I think it contributes to a grainy feeling to the picture that Plasma and LCD do not have. However, I'm still glad I didn't drop $5500 on a 60 Kuro. I'll patiently wait for my OLED. Maybe I'll have $5500 to waste by then.

[The Dukester]

Pioneer is getting out of the glass market, but not the plasma market. They will still put their electronic in them, and that's just as big a part of the overall picture as the glass. I look for them to sell a plant or two to Pannasonic and either sell the technologies they have outright or at least sell the rights to them as well.

I still look for the ECC units in the 10g line to come out, as well as the 9mm thick display. The gap between Panny and Pio will obviously close, but with the volume Panny is capable of, especially if they obtain a plant or two from Pioneer, look for all the PDPs you want at good pricing and of good quality.:)

As for the 9gs coming out in a few months, from what the insiders were talking about last night on AVS, they will still be all Pioneer. I'm not so sure, though, as they are offering several different bezel designs with the standard coming out first, a "slim line" coming out next and the Elites last in late fall. We shall see. I'm glad I jumped on one of the 1150s at Tweeter last weekend:D:D:D I sold my Pio 5016 I bought from there about 18 months ago for 1500 and plunged head first:p With my AViD discount and tax, I got out for just over 2300. You just can't get a better tv for that money, period, IMO.;)

Will plasma tvs continue to improve? For this year and next, yes. With 0 ire (FLAT black), reduced power consumption, lighter weight and thin bezels, I don't know how much more they could improve. Pannasonic may even pay Pioneer (or at least joint venture) to continue r & d to improve them, but who knows? I'll be satisfied with my 1150 for awhile, but if the ECC models come out and the following year they are half price, I'll jump on one of those, too!;)

[jonnythan]

Let's see, comparing plasma with LCD, LCD uses less power, generates less heat, is lighter weight, is better for viewing in lighted rooms (which is how most people view), zero chance of "burn in"...how do you come to the conclusion that an "inferior" technology won?
Notice that "picture quality" and "black levels" didn't appear in your list :)

[annunaki]

How is plasma dead when Pioneer will continue to sell plasma and add LCD? Sure they are not building the panel itself, but they are still "making" them.

The last I had heard was that Panasonic will continue with plasma until 2011-2012 where they will then shift to OLED or similar format.

I honestly cannot stand LCD's, for the most part. The motion, even with "120hz" is literally unwatchable in my opinion. It completely distracts you from watching the movie.

[stratman]

I think the headline "PLASMA DEAD" was just to grab attention, I really don't think that plasma will die anytime soon, or that the mods seriously believe that. Plasma and lcd aren't at war as per the now defunct Hi-Def DVD fiasco. Plasma has outsold LCDs primarily for two reasons, price, and size. PQ traits are important to us, but the majority of people look at price first then PQ and as we all know going to your local BB is not the best way to compare PQ, unless you strong-arm one of the sales kids. Pioneer will buy from Panny, probably strike some sort of deal with them for R&D, most likely like Duke writes, sell them a plant or two. Panny will exit plasma when OLED is a mature and viable (read affordable and mass-produceable) technology, they'll most likely come to market with a high-quality, low cost unit, outsell everyone and make a killing with volume.

[gus6464]

Honestly who cares if Pioneer exits the market? They only cover a niche portion of it while Panasonic and Samsung has the big pie with Panasonic controlling most of it. Look at the new Panasonic models coming out which are cheaper, bigger, and better PQ wise than their LCD counterparts. What did Pioneer expect when they were selling a product that was considerably more expensive but only a tiny bit better than their competitor?

[rgriffin25]

Its all about production, the more you can cut out of a sheet of glass the cheaper you can sell the TV. Pioneer did not have the capacity to compete with the more established companies. That is why they pulled the plug.. Cheaper to buy than to produce yourself.. Why do you think sony does so well with lcd?

[Clint DeBoer]

I wonder if they announced the death of LCD when Sony announced it was getting out of that segment.Sony never announced it was getting out of LCD. Everyone is moving towards LCD. Sony left the microdisplay (SXRD/LCoS) market and I absolutely think that is headed for extinction as well.

When we say "plasma is dead" it simply means that the end of plasma is now tangibly inevitable. When companies who have been plasma-exclusive suddenly shift to be LCD-inclusive it tells us that there are things going on in the industry which say that LCD will get so cheap to manufacture soon and be so consumer-compelling (ie <1-inch panels, etc) that plasma is in trouble.

LED backlighting will remove one of the last hurdles - black levels from the plasma camp, while 120Hz (if they ever implement it correctly) can alleviate the blurring issue.

[AdrianMills]

So what is the probability that the ultra black concept Kuro (or an equivalent model from someone else) will make it to market next year? I do hope it does, I'd planned on going for the 60". :(

[JackT]

Sony never announced it was getting out of LCD. Everyone is moving towards LCD. Sony left the microdisplay (SXRD/LCoS) market and I absolutely think that is headed for extinction as well.


I'm referring to stories like these from '06

http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20060822A1001.html

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Sony-Steps-Out-of-the-LCD-Display-Market-33976.shtml


You are correct, there was never an announcement, just statements from "undisclosed sources within the industry."

Also, there were similar stories about Fujitsu getting out of LCD about a year earlier. Not sure if that actually came to pass or not.

My point is, companies are ALWAYS saying they are getting out of or getting into this or that without it signaling the "death" of anything in particular. Yes, all current display technologies will eventually be gone, but not necessarily because of what Pioneer did or did not do.

[stratman]

Sony never announced it was getting out of LCD. Everyone is moving towards LCD. Sony left the microdisplay (SXRD/LCoS) market and I absolutely think that is headed for extinction as well.

When we say "plasma is dead" it simply means that the end of plasma is now tangibly inevitable. When companies who have been plasma-exclusive suddenly shift to be LCD-inclusive it tells us that there are things going on in the industry which say that LCD will get so cheap to manufacture soon and be so consumer-compelling (ie <1-inch panels, etc) that plasma is in trouble.

LED backlighting will remove one of the last hurdles - black levels from the plasma camp, while 120Hz (if they ever implement it correctly) can alleviate the blurring issue.

I agree somewhat, but there are still so many "ifs", I don't know how far along Panasonic is on the road to recover their initial investments in plasma technology, perhaps if they sunk more money than the competition they need to stay the course a bit longer to recoup. What's the limit to plasma development? Thinner? Better resolution? Has it reached it's potential? Can these goals be reached at a worthwhile economic level? Will switching to LCD cost Panasonic an arm and a leg, causing them to invest in a transitional technology (we do know LCD is transitional, eventually to be overtaken by another display technology)and thereby hampering the adoption of the next gen display? More than technology, the current world-wide economic picture will dictate what the next leap will entail, OLED,LASER or a hybrid of sorts. And you can add to the mix, the Korean CE industry who happens to be swimming in cash right now, they might take the lead from Japan and come to market first. These are interesting times indeed.

[quarlo]

Sensationalist BS, IMHO. There is nothing as in *NOTHING* that even comes close to a Kuro at the high end (50"+). Sad that Pioneer's somewhat greedy pricing policy kept them confined to a smaller segment of the market than they could have had based on quality. Like the man on the corner selling $50 apples - don't have to sell many, but not too many people buying, either. I am so very happy that I got my 60" this year. I've seen dozens of LCD, RP, projector and even other large form factor plasmas (many of those systems professionally calibrated) and absolutely nothing beats the Kuros for PQ *in my opinion*. As someone mentioned previously in the thread - inferior technology often wins in the marketplace for reasons having nothing to do with being the best. :confused:

[stratman]

I had my eye on the 50" KURO, but now I might go back to my original target, the new 50" Panny coming out this year.

[Pyrrho]

Let's see, comparing plasma with LCD, LCD uses less power, generates less heat, is lighter weight, is better for viewing in lighted rooms (which is how most people view), zero chance of "burn in"...how do you come to the conclusion that an "inferior" technology won?
Notice that "picture quality" and "black levels" didn't appear in your list :)

You evidently need to be told that something is a picture quality issue when it is a picture quality issue. Take another look at the fragment of my post that you quoted, and you will see in the list for LCD: "is better for viewing in lighted rooms". Evidently I need to spell this out for you. LCD tends to have less issues with glare. Glare is a picture quality issue. What did you think it meant?

One could also regard burn-in as a picture quality issue. Burn in an image, and see how you like the looks of it.

My comment to which you replied was a reaction to the claim that LCD was an inferior technology to plasma, not to a statement about picture quality. Consequently, issues other than picture quality are relevant to the issue, and is why non-picture quality issues were included.

You might also want to look at my post #14 above in this thread for comments about black level. I certainly do not say that LCD is the best in every way. But to call it "inferior technology" when, in fact, it is superior in many ways, is just plain wrong. Plasma, in some ways, is currently superior to LCD. Does it make you happy to see this? As I stated in post #14 above, every current TV technology has its share of virtues and vices. There simply is no such thing as a perfect TV, or one that is the best in every way.

Of course, all of these comments are regarding the best that is currently possible; any type can be bad if improperly made.

As for the future, as LCD continues to improve in the areas in which it is behind plasma, we might expect that, eventually, it may catch up or even surpass plasma. Or it might not. But there is no chance that plasma will catch up with all of the virtues of LCD, as, for example, in order for plasma to work, the gas in the screen needs to be heated, which means they will always give off more heat and use more power (just do a search for how plasma works). For related reasons, it is doubtful if it will ever be as light as LCD, though I suppose some new light-weight heat-resistant transparent material might be invented. Whatever the future may bring, of course, that does not tell you what is best to buy right now. But the future certainly looks better for LCD, and were I investing in manufacturing, I would not be investing in plasma. Evidently, Pioneer now agrees with me on this. But, for buying a TV today, plasma might be the right choice for a particular individual, depending on what one's needs are and which vices one can tolerate. If you are one of those for whom plasma is the best choice, then buy one and be happy. But do not imagine that your circumstances are the same as everyone else's circumstances, or that everyone would be better off making the same choice you have made.

[autoboy]

Long live rear projection!

I really want rear projection to stick around because it has such potential for cheap, big displays with outstanding picture quality. Why is thin so popular!

I want my Laser DLP with deep blacks, accurate colors, and a foot thickness in a 60", lightweight, and beautiful tabletop TV.

Or an OLED. But 5 years plus is a long time to wait. I usually only last 2 years before I get bored with what I have.

[chrisivan]

"Plasma TV is dead"

Whoa, Nelly. Dont bet on it.

When do they start having clearance sales on all those Kuro's.........I'm drooling and chomping at the bit :) :)

[Maxsunset]

I'm calling BS on this article. There are NO referenced listed whatsoever.

And as of now, I dont think I'll be coming back to Audioholics anytime soon. What's with the sensationalist headline? Even if the story were true, the headline is a complete exaggeration. So between the lack of decent articles on Audioholics, the terrible selection of products on their online store (I mean, really terrible selection (it feels like what they have is all they could manage to get)), and the countless reviews of dime-a-dozen recievers from Denon and Yamaha (variety is the spice of life guys) and other crap products that seem to be reviewed over and over again just because the Audioholics staff are fanboys of some particular brands, and not to mention all the stupid articles that have nothing to do with A/V whatsoever (Apple announcements, videogames...).... I'm done. If I want gaming news I'll go to a reputable gaming news outlet. If I want apple news, I'll go somewhere without the fan-bias. If I want to buy crap recievers, I'll buy one at a box store, which I dont do in the first place because I like good sound...

[jonnythan]

I'm calling BS on this article. There are NO referenced listed whatsoever.

And as of now, I dont think I'll be coming back to Audioholics anytime soon. What's with the sensationalist headline? Even if the story were true, the headline is a complete exaggeration. So between the lack of decent articles on Audioholics, the terrible selection of products on their online store (I mean, really terrible selection (it feels like what they have is all they could manage to get)), and the countless reviews of dime-a-dozen recievers from Denon and Yamaha (variety is the spice of life guys) and other crap products that seem to be reviewed over and over again just because the Audioholics staff are fanboys of some particular brands, and not to mention all the stupid articles that have nothing to do with A/V whatsoever (Apple announcements, videogames...).... I'm done. If I want gaming news I'll go to a reputable gaming news outlet. If I want apple news, I'll go somewhere without the fan-bias. If I want to buy crap recievers, I'll buy one at a box store, which I dont do in the first place because I like good sound...

I've learned not to take the "news articles" too seriously. Most of them are either jokes or gross exaggerations. They're more akin to wonky editorials than news posts.

[kaiser_soze]

To say plasma is dead because the 5th largest manufacturer pulls the plug on building their own panels is silly! ...

No one doubted the quality of Pioneer's Plasmas, the problem is its hard to sell a TV that costs twice as much as its competitors. ... PRICE

I am glad that someone here finally said what was begging to be said.

When I saw the email in my inbox, from Gene, and saw the subject line, i.e., plasma is dead, I could not help but open the mail. When I did, it was immediately apparent that I had been misled. The actual information was about Pioneer having made a strategic business decision to stop manufacturing their own plasma panels and to procure them from Panasonic instead. What sense does it make to infer from this information, that plasma is dead? It makes no sense at all. Plasma may be losing sales rapidly to LCD panels for all I know, but for it to make sense to infer the imminent demise of plasma, you would have to look at sales trends, and while the decision by Pioneer may have somthing to do with sales trends, their was no such information given in the article.

So it was a little annoying, and then when I decided to read the forum posts, all I saw for the first several pages were a lot of people who had taken what they were told at face value, without questioning the obvious problem with it, and then jumping into a debate which was wrought with a lot of misinformation.

Why did it take almost three full pages of posts before someone pointed this out? One person even stated, in effect, that you can't get an LCD panel larger than 48". What complete nonsense. At least one person made statements regarding the hysteresis of LCD, i.e., the motion blur or jerkiness. These problems are historically correct, but not any more. My new 52" Sony XBR has zero motion artifacts. There is no blur at all, and with the 120 Hz screen refresh rate, there are no motion artifacts.

As for black levels and contrast ratio, I don't doubt that it is marginally inferior to the best plasma panels that are available today, but during the daytime or at night when the room lighting is on, the black bands at the sides when watching 4:3 content appear every bit as black as the black frame that covers over the speakers on the sides. At night with the lights all turned off, you can tell that the black is not completely black, but it is hardly noticeable at all when looking at the picture. I have a critical eye when it comes to television, and I was fully aware that there is a detectable difference in the depth of the black levels, with the best of the plasma sets having a slight advantage. But all the information that I have says that efficiency and/or sensitivity of the plama cells diminishes over time, i.e., that the more an individual cell is used, the less light it produces for a given applied voltage or power. That is all I need to know, to know that screen burn-in of plasma is necessarily a real effect. Everything that I have read says that this effect is very real, and yet at least one person here claims that it is not real. If this effect is not real, why would the manufacturers make a fuss over that pixel-shifting stuff, which, by the way, would be the last thing that I could imagine wanting in a TV. If this effect is not real, why don't they give a five-year warranty against screen burn-in?

[kaiser_soze]

I honestly cannot stand LCD's, for the most part. The motion, even with "120hz" is literally unwatchable in my opinion. It completely distracts you from watching the movie.

It is misinformative for you to state that as though it is a universal property of all LCD panels. It probably was as recently as two or three years ago, but it certainly is not anymore.

Perhaps it has been a few years since you have visited an electronics store. Two or three years ago, the effect was time smear, which was due to the decay time or hysteresis being too slow. That was fixed, as evidenced by the fact that many of LCDs from a year or two back exhibited a jerky effect with motion. There is no way that the jerky effect could occur as long as the hysteresis was too great (slow). With the hysteresis problem being fixed, all that was needed to fix the jerky effect, which was effectively due to the over-correction of the hysteresis problem, was to double the frame refresh rate. If you do that by synthesizing a complete (progressive) frame in between each time-adjacent pair of complete frames in the signal, then there can hardly be any doubt that the net effect will be an improvement in the perceived smoothness of the motion.

It should also be noted that when reverse 3:2 pulldown is applied to extract 24 original frames per second for content that was originally shot at 24 frames per second, that the ratio of original frames to frames as presented on the screen is a nice integer ratio of 1:5, which tells you that in between each time-adjacent pair of original cinematic frames, you need to synthesize four frames. Were you to simply repeat each frame four times, the effect would be very similar to the jerky motion that you see in the theater. If you have observed jerky motion with an LCD panel TV that uses a screen refresh rate of 120 Hz, the most likely explanation is that you were watching film-based content where the LCD TV had applied reverse 3:2 pulldown to extract the original 24 frames per second, but then simply repeated each frame four times in succession. If so, what you saw was very much the same as you would have seen had you watched that film-based content in a theater.

[mk7se]

Even if the story were true, the headline is a complete exaggeration. So between the lack of decent articles on Audioholics, the terrible selection of products on their online store (I mean, really terrible selection (it feels like what they have is all they could manage to get)), and the countless reviews of dime-a-dozen recievers from Denon and Yamaha

I agree.

While I am and have been a big fan and have gleaned alot of info here. This article is hog-wash.
Plasma might not last for ever, but it's harldy dead.

I also thought I was the one who noticed their bias toward Denon and Yamaha.
But hey, write a raving review and cover every time a new Denon receiver or OVER-PRICED dvd player comes out (twice a year it seems), and you get free stuff to furnish your own HT.
Wonder what the headline would say if Denon made plasmas?

[kaiser_soze]

Its all about production, ... Pioneer did not have the capacity to compete ... That is why they pulled the plug.. Cheaper to buy than to produce yourself..

Much as this seems like stating the obvious, it was entirely appropriate to state it here, since this evidently did not occur to the vast majority of people here who interpreted the fact of Pioneer's decision to stop making the things themselves as proof positive of the demise of plasma technology.

[JackT]

Wonder what the headline would say if Denon made plasmas?

Ha ha, or Axiom. :)

[kaiser_soze]

Sony never announced it was getting out of LCD. Everyone is moving towards LCD. Sony left the microdisplay (SXRD/LCoS) market and I absolutely think that is headed for extinction as well.

Thanks for clarifying what Sony actually did do, since at least one person had something along the lines of Sony getting out of the LCD market. Even if that comment was based on Sony's deal with another manufacturer, it was not apparent to me, from what little I read about that, that it meant that Sony would stop manufacturing their own LCD panels. It does seem that SXRD/LCoS is now a dead-end, and I attribute that to two factors, one of which is that the quality of shine-the-light-through-it LCD is now good enough that LCoS no longer offers a significant advantage. The other factor is that people simply want flat panels, and that spells death for all "micro-display" technology, i.e., for DLP as well.

When we say "plasma is dead" it simply means that the end of plasma is now tangibly inevitable. When companies who have been plasma-exclusive suddenly shift to be LCD-inclusive it tells us that there are things going on in the industry which say that LCD will get so cheap to manufacture soon and be so consumer-compelling (ie <1-inch panels, etc) that plasma is in trouble.

Your conclusions simly do not logically follow from the given information. There may well be other information that, when all of it is taken together, would lead you to that conclusion. But if so, you should present all of that information and explain how you reached that conclusion, and not write as though you believe that it is logically sensible to deduce, from the fact that Pioneer has decided to stop manufacturing their own plasma sets and has decided to sell LCD panels alongside their branded plasmas, that plasma is dead. As far as what the objective information here tells you about "what is going on in the industry", the given information, in and of itself, tells you exactly what it tells you in and of itself, no more and no less. The immediate information deals only with Pioneer's business decisions, and that information, in and of itself, tells you nothing at all about the future cost trends for LCD.

LED backlighting will remove one of the last hurdles - black levels from the plasma camp, while 120Hz (if they ever implement it correctly) can alleviate the blurring issue.

I am not aware of any problem whatsoever with the implementation of the 120Hz refresh rate of my new Sony XBR. I have not been able to detect any problems whatsoever with it, and the motion that I observe, both for video-based content and film-based content, is as natural as any motion that I have ever observed on any TV. It goes without saying that it is better than the jerky motion that you see in a theater using a mechanical projector that operates at 24 frames per second.

[kaiser_soze]

I'm calling BS on this article. There are NO referenced listed whatsoever.

And as of now, I dont think I'll be coming back to Audioholics anytime soon. What's with the sensationalist headline? Even if the story were true, the headline is a complete exaggeration.

It did not occur to me that the story might have been fabricated. But the rest of what you said there is right on the mark. I received an email that turned out to be a completely sensationalist exaggeration, unquestionably written for the specific purpose of getting me to open and read the email.

So between the lack of decent articles on Audioholics, the terrible selection of products on their online store (I mean, really terrible selection (it feels like what they have is all they could manage to get)), and the countless reviews of dime-a-dozen recievers from Denon and Yamaha (variety is the spice of life guys) and other crap products that seem to be reviewed over and over again just because the Audioholics staff are fanboys of some particular brands, and not to mention all the stupid articles that have nothing to do with A/V whatsoever (Apple announcements, videogames...).... I'm done. If I want gaming news I'll go to a reputable gaming news outlet. If I want apple news, I'll go somewhere without the fan-bias. If I want to buy crap recievers, I'll buy one at a box store, which I dont do in the first place because I like good sound...

I don't know about the quality of the articles, etc., but today for the first time I took a look at the store, and this was the first time that I even was aware that Audioholics had a store. I didn't see any particularly good bargains.

I could not help but consider the possibility that the full explanation for the sensationalist, B.S. headline has something to do with the store...

[Clint DeBoer]

I am not aware of any problem whatsoever with the implementation of the 120Hz refresh rate of my new Sony XBR. I have not been able to detect any problems whatsoever with it, and the motion that I observe, both for video-based content and film-based content, is as natural as any motion that I have ever observed on any TV. It goes without saying that it is better than the jerky motion that you see in a theater using a mechanical projector that operates at 24 frames per second.Throw up a detailed test pattern on it like a 2-3 Moving Zone Plate. :)

I think some of you need to read my other article (http://www.avrant.com/?p=252).

I have yet to hear one person actually address any of my points. Many just don't like what I wrote, how I wrote it, or my conclusions. If this were an encyclopedia I may feel the need to come up with more data, however I think I was thorough enough. The trouble is most people didn't read the whole article and got ticked off after the first paragraph (if they made it past the headline.)

It's not like this isn't big news for plasma.

In short...

http://members.aol.com/plittle/StrawmanPoster.jpg
lol

[JackT]

Sony never announced it was getting out of LCD.

FWIW, Pioneer hasn't announced it's getting out of plasma.

[croseiv]

This is a funny thread. Almost knee-jerkish...

[croseiv]

Pioneer plasmas are overpriced. Samsung and Panasonic sets can be had for lower prices and are essentially as good. I suspect Pioneer's sales are hurting due to higher prices.

[mk7se]

The trouble is most people didn't read the whole article and got ticked off after the first paragraph (if they made it past the headline.)

Maybe YOU didn't. Then you would know that Pioneer is simply out-sourcing manufacturing plasmas but still putting their name on them.

or those concerned, this doesn't mean that Pioneer will exit the plasma business. It simply means that they are, in the interim at least, looking to leave the plasma panel manufacturing business



Pioneers panels are more expensive, but to say they are over-priced is only relevant to your own personal finances.
It's just like high-end audio. Most people can't justify buying separates from people like Krell and Levison or heaven forbid, Denons' new separates. (i.e.). Like-wise the general populace going into Costo, Best Buy, etc.... see a glowing LCD tv and they want that. The average consumer is "under educated".

[Clint DeBoer]

This is a funny thread. Almost knee-jerkish...No doubt.

Maybe YOU didn't.I wrote it, but let's not quibble over details. lol

[mk7se]

I wrote it, but let's not quibble over details. lol

Exactly my point. Nlol

[1tribeca]

Hold you friggin horses people!!! Pioneer ain't goin' anywhere. The first clue was the headline...bulging at the seams with A/V hyperbole.

There is an announcement (official from Pioneer) coming Friday.

I think you'll find that "some" of the components of future Pioneers will contain Panny technology ie. the glass and a few other goodies. The main guts...video processing, Kuro technology etc. will remain Pioneer. Why would you not continue to make the premier panel?

It's a matter of forethought & economics. Panasonic is a HUGE company compared to Pioneer (as far as revenue and market share are concerned) So they can afford to maintain a premium product and market it accordingly. Remember, Panny has their large fingers in all kinds of profitable pie...Pioneer is pretty much a plasma & A/V component company solely.

The nearest comparison I can see at this point is like the Porsche Cayenne...it starts with a Volkswagen Toureg frame, but in the end it comes out a Porsche...fast, well built, slick, and expensive! BTW, Porsche now owns 33% of Volks...and growing...just an aside!

If you're worried, go grab an Elite PRO-110 while you can...new panel coming June/July!!

[JackT]

Nope, sorry. Clint said it was dead.

By way of review, here is a list of things that Clint DeBoer has declared dead:

1)BluRay
2)HD-DVD
3)Plasma Displays
4)Magnets
5)Peanut Butter & Jelly Sandwiches

[1tribeca]

C'mon...Clint is a good fella! Like most "rumours" there is some truth to the article. Things are definitely gonna change at Pioneer, let's just hope it's for the good and that Elite panels remain leagues above everyone else.

Prick up your ears Friday....drumroll please...

[Duffinator]

FWIW, Pioneer hasn't announced it's getting out of plasma.True but I'm not sure that's the point of this article. Pioneer, which has been one of the biggest supporters of plasma technology, invested billions of dollars in plasma manufacturing while Sony, Samsung, LG, Philipps, Sharp, and on and on were investing in LCD plants. I posted articles here almost three years ago questioning Pioneers decision as being very near sighted and a bad business decision. So now, after that large committment and lots of money, they are saying they are getting out of manufacturing pdp's. So what they are admitting is they were wrong and must now go in a different direction. Three years ago capital investment was ten times as much in LCD as plasma. LCD has virtually caught up and will soon match or surpass plasma in every catagory. While Pioneer pulling out of plasma manufacturing is not the death of pdp's the writing is on the wall. How much money is Sony putting into pdp technology? Remember, regardless of PQ all of these companies are in business to make money. Pioneer isn't making much if any money so the right thing for them to do, as a publicly traded company, is to maximize shareholder wealth and make good business decision that make money.

I own a Sharp LCD and will be purchasing a new TV for my HT within the next 60 days. I was looking exclusively at Panasonic and Pioneer plasmas 58" and 60" but this news is making me rethink that. While PQ is very important I don't want to buy a technology that may well be history in two years. I'll still most likely get the new Panasonic 800 series anyway but I will once again look at LCD's before I make my purchase.

[stratman]

True but I'm not sure that's the point of this article. Pioneer, which has been one of the biggest supporters of plasma technology, invested billions of dollars in plasma manufacturing while Sony, Samsung, LG, Philipps, Sharp, and on and on were investing in LCD plants. I posted articles here almost three years ago questioning Pioneers decision as being very near sighted and a bad business decision. So now, after that large committment and lots of money, they are saying they are getting out of manufacturing pdp's. So what they are admitting is they were wrong and must now go in a different direction. Three years ago capital investment was ten times as much in LCD as plasma. LCD has virtually caught up and will soon match or surpass plasma in every catagory. While Pioneer pulling out of plasma manufacturing is not the death of pdp's the writing is on the wall. How much money is Sony putting into pdp technology? Remember, regardless of PQ all of these companies are in business to make money. Pioneer isn't making much if any money so the right thing for them to do, as a publicly traded company, is to maximize shareholder wealth and make good business decision that make money.

I own a Sharp LCD and will be purchasing a new TV for my HT within the next 60 days. I was looking exclusively at Panasonic and Pioneer plasmas 58" and 60" but this news is making me rethink that. While PQ is very important I don't want to buy a technology that may well be history in two years. I'll still most likely get the new Panasonic 800 series anyway but I will once again look at LCD's before I make my purchase.

I don't think that in 24 months plasmas will be extinct or deminished. I still believe Panny will hold it's course with plasma production for 2 reasons: invested capitol, economy of production. It wouldn't make business sense for Panny to get into LCD production when they're making out like bandits with plasma screens and besides LCD, like plasma, is a transitional technology. They've done well because their business model is sound: quality, high production, low margin, volume sales. If anything I'd say look to Panny and others to start investing in alternative display technology such as OLED or a hybrid in the near future.

[Duffinator]

I don't think that in 24 months plasmas will be extinct or deminished. I still believe Panny will hold it's course with plasma production for 2 reasons: invested capitol, economy of production. It wouldn't make business sense for Panny to get into LCD production when they're making out like bandits with plasma screens and besides LCD, like plasma, is a transitional technology. They've done well because their business model is sound: quality, high production, low margin, volume sales. If anything I'd say look to Panny and others to start investing in alternative display technology such as OLED or a hybrid in the near future.I don't think they will be extinct but their market share will be further eroded as it has been now. I wouldn't be surprised to see Samsung and others stop selling plasmas within two years. Please define "making out like bandits". They maybe be selling lots of TV's but are they making any money? ;) You don't have to "look to Panny and others to start investing in alternative display technologies such as OLED" they have already been doing it for years. :eek:

Remember Pioneer wasn't going to make or sell LCD TV's come hell or high water three years ago. So which one happened? IMO this is a big decision that will effect the rest of the plasma industry.

[stratman]

Please define "making out like bandits". They maybe be selling lots of TV's but are they making any money? ;)

I can't give internal numbers, but if you do a bit of research into Matsushita's growth, you can gauge more or less. I'll talk to my analyst buddy see if he can get some internal numbers. As for the obvious, you don't hold a commanding lead for so long in a technology segment if you're hemorrhaging capitol, look at what happened to Pioneer and Toshiba. The fact that Pioneer stuck with plasma and Masushita proves that they felt comfortable with their new supplier and still have enough faith in the platform. Matsushita is also investing in LCD technology, but not as heavy as their competition, there is a strong LCD market for sub 42inch sets. Still, both technologies have their days numbered and neither will survive.

[Duffinator]

Remember Pioneer wasn't going to make or sell LCD TV's come hell or high water three years ago. So which one happened?You didn't answer my question. ;)

[annunaki]

My statement was not any sort of misinformation at all. I have played around extensively with LCD sets featuring 120hz technology. (Last week in fact) The 120hz adds an effect to the image that is not intended to be there. To be honest it is rather annoying and makes it harder to get immersed in the movie. I do not want movies shot on film appear as though they were shot with a hand-held camcorder in live action. That is the type of effect 120hz adds.

In my opinion, LCD has to come a LONG way before I will even consider purchasing one.

Besides that, they still have not fixed the black level/color uniformity, off axis viewing problems. The low res signals still look better on plasmas as well.



It is misinformative for you to state that as though it is a universal property of all LCD panels. It probably was as recently as two or three years ago, but it certainly is not anymore.

Perhaps it has been a few years since you have visited an electronics store. Two or three years ago, the effect was time smear, which was due to the decay time or hysteresis being too slow. That was fixed, as evidenced by the fact that many of LCDs from a year or two back exhibited a jerky effect with motion. There is no way that the jerky effect could occur as long as the hysteresis was too great (slow). With the hysteresis problem being fixed, all that was needed to fix the jerky effect, which was effectively due to the over-correction of the hysteresis problem, was to double the frame refresh rate. If you do that by synthesizing a complete (progressive) frame in between each time-adjacent pair of complete frames in the signal, then there can hardly be any doubt that the net effect will be an improvement in the perceived smoothness of the motion.

It should also be noted that when reverse 3:2 pulldown is applied to extract 24 original frames per second for content that was originally shot at 24 frames per second, that the ratio of original frames to frames as presented on the screen is a nice integer ratio of 1:5, which tells you that in between each time-adjacent pair of original cinematic frames, you need to synthesize four frames. Were you to simply repeat each frame four times, the effect would be very similar to the jerky motion that you see in the theater. If you have observed jerky motion with an LCD panel TV that uses a screen refresh rate of 120 Hz, the most likely explanation is that you were watching film-based content where the LCD TV had applied reverse 3:2 pulldown to extract the original 24 frames per second, but then simply repeated each frame four times in succession. If so, what you saw was very much the same as you would have seen had you watched that film-based content in a theater.

[bandphan]

annunaki is correct the over processing with 120hz seems to do more harm than help.

stratman is also correct in that pioneer will continue to put out plasmas, and they are both correct in stating that plasma looks better that lcd.

I have yet to see any lcd that looks as good as plasma(with in well branded circles). All the negaitive talk about burn in, cost more to operate, heat factor ect, doesnt cut it for me. Ive ben on the recieving end of the "my friend says" and "consumer reports says" for along time and have come to find that you cant change peoples opinions. IMO pioneer hasnt been in the tv business in way that others have, they stuck to their niche, and the dollars are not falling in a good way so the are cutting fat to try to make it work. When they were purchasing panels from nec their processing is what made them, and i believe it will still make them, as long as the are in the game. Technology is still the driving factor for sales, so as long as new tech keeps rolling out, old tech will be questioned and put to the test and if the dollars are not there, the product will dissapear. A good buddy of mine recently told me that their company is dropping all tvs under 32" because the cant compete with the wallmarts of the world, and his company has been in florida since 77, with a pretty good rep. If the money isnt there how does a business justify their model? They dont they change it or create a new one

[1tribeca]

Anything below 40" is not worth making a premium type panel...not cost effective....with BB and other big box stores selling small size panels like LG, and other assorted garbage for wickedly low prices. In fact, here in Canada, it's next to impossible to grab the Pioneer (not Elite) panels in 42" or "50" because BB and Future Shop (same owner) has snagged them all up!! Keep in mind "Elite" is a line that is nowhere to be found outside N. America

Plasma isn't going anywhere fast!! Sure, new technologies will arise and replace the old, but LCD & plasma are still selling large numbers.

The LCDs of "today" are so far from being equal to plasma in PQ that it'll take a lot more time to equal out...if at all. By then maybe both will be toast.

Medium-sized A/V corps. like Pioneer have to brace themselves in an ever-changing marketplace...filled with takeovers by "big fish" etc. Hence the reason they bought a good amount of Sharp stock, and Sharp purchased Pioneer stock.

By the way...it was Pioneer who "pioneered" OLED technology (the used it in their car audio displays) and they sold the technology to Sony some time ago!

[Jack Hammer]

Samsung told me to only use the 120hz for live sporting events or fast action "scenes" in movies. It causes motion blurring and "3 ball effect" while using it on non'fast action scenes. I like the concept and initially was impressed with the effect, but like many, now I just leave it off. It causes more problems than it fixes.

Jack

[kaiser_soze]

My statement was not any sort of misinformation at all. I have played around extensively with LCD sets featuring 120hz technology. (Last week in fact) The 120hz adds an effect to the image that is not intended to be there. To be honest it is rather annoying and makes it harder to get immersed in the movie. I do not want movies shot on film appear as though they were shot with a hand-held camcorder in live action. That is the type of effect 120hz adds.

In my opinion, LCD has to come a LONG way before I will even consider purchasing one.

Besides that, they still have not fixed the black level/color uniformity, off axis viewing problems. The low res signals still look better on plasmas as well.

The problem here is quite simply that you are taking flaws that are present in many LCD panels and attributing those flaws to all LCD panels in a universal way. By analogy, it would be as though, if some of your relatives were known to be liars, that I went around saying that the problem with your family is that you are all liars.

The off-axis viewing issue is one example of this. This is unquestionably a problem with many LCD panels, but it is definitely NOT a universal problem with LCD panels. It is logically dubious to take a flaw that is generally present in some category of thing and claim that it is universally, invariably a flaw with that category of thing. That is exactly what you are doing, and it is simply B.S.

The same applies to your claims re the 120 Hz refresh rate. The 120 Hz refresh rate is not even an intrinsic part of LCD technology. The technical property of LCD molecules that can potentially lead to motion-related artifacts, is the hysteresis of the molecule, i.e., the resolving time for it to return, from the form where it permits light to pass, to the form where it does not permit light to pass. It has been true that the hysteresis of the molecules was generally so great as to cause motion smear. This is certainly not universally true of flat-panel LCD televisions today.

It was only necessary to reduce the hysteresis to the point where motion would look the same on an LCD panel using a 60 Hz refresh rate as it does on a CRT set using a 60 Hz refresh rate. But it is manifest that the resolving time of the molecules was decreased to the point that it even offered the potential for doubling the screen refresh rate. As I previously explained, it is not difficult to imagine ways in which this could be done poorly. In particular, if reverse 3:2 pulldown is applied to film-based content to extract the original 24 frames per each second, then exactly four additional frames have to be inserted between each of those original frames. The simplest way to do that will be by simple repetition of the original frame, in which case the effect that you see on a good, state-of-the-art flat panel LCD TV is for every intent and purpose the same as what you see when you watch that film-based content in a theater. When I watch DVD's sourced from film-based content, the motion looks entirely the same as motion looks when watching a movie in a movie theater. The inherent jerkiness of fast motion captured by a 24 fps film camera is faithfully preserved.

[Duffinator]

Excellent post KS.

But the point of this thread is the future of the plasma technology and not to debate, once again, the merits of LCD vs. plasma. So is there a future for pdp's? I for one think it's days are numbered. And nobody has answered my question:

"Remember Pioneer wasn't going to make or sell LCD TV's come hell or high water three years ago. So which one happened?" ;)

[JBElliott]

If this effect is not real, why don't they give a five-year warranty against screen burn-in?

Do other types of televisions (e.g. LCD) come with that sort of warranty?

[JBElliott]

One of the killers of plasma television is supposed to be the 1" thick screens that will come out in the future. To 1" screens I say, so what? What's the big deal? You can hang them on the wall? Sure, but you've still got to plug cables into the television no matter how thin it is. That being the case, hanging anything on the wall and dealing with hiding the cables is a pain in the neck and will always be more difficult that putting the television on a stand on a cabinet or the light. On the other hand, if the 1" screens have can receive the A/V signals and power wirelessly (to power part some MIT scientists have developed in the past year or so), then hanging them on the wall becomes as easy as putting up a picture and bigger, heavier screens will face a lot of problems. But until that time, 1" screens don't really buy you anything.

[Clint DeBoer]

Cool, a new place to direct hate-mail: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/308pioback/

:)

We'll know more Friday, but I suspect it will just be a formalization of this news - that Pioneer is ceasing making panels and will simply assemble plasma displays using Panasonic glass. I bet the displays will be just as good and perhaps they will even work out a deal to make Matsushita's panels even better (ie license them some technology).

[Maxsunset]

Cool, a new place to direct hate-mail: http://www.ultimateavmag.com/news/308pioback/


Clint, the reason people are getting pissed at you is because you are making deliberately inflammatory headlines that are simply not true. No other AV new source is being as xyz about this news, mostly because they have more journalistic integrity then you obviously do, and they are also saddened that the most advanced and best plasma glass manufacturer might be ceasing production. You seem to have some sort of morbid death wish just to prove your predictions.

[stratman]

And nobody has answered my question:

"Remember Pioneer wasn't going to make or sell LCD TV's come hell or high water three years ago. So which one happened?" ;)


Hey D,


To answer your question: Hell and high water came a-knocking on Pio's door. So they had a choice, sink or swim. What would you do as a corporation? They did the smart thing, delegated production to a supplier that can provide a tech cheaper than they can produce, there by generating capital. LCD: now they have a two prong attack on the market, provide plasmas at a profit and provide LCDs at a profit. I'll say it again both technologies are nearing their end-of-life cycle.

[audiovideobob]

Hi Clint
I believe that the title of this article is misplaced.Pioneer is still going to make plasma tvs.Just because they have some one else make the panels for them is not unusual.Pioneer was getting their panels made by NEC up until a few years ago.Aligning with Sharp to make LCDs makes sence because now they can offer both and expand their flat panel business.When you get to 50" and above in screen size plasma offers more choises and bigger panels.Plasma is not going be with us for at least another 5 years or more.

[kaiser_soze]

Do other types of televisions (e.g. LCD) come with that sort of warranty?


The logic that is implied by this rhetorical question is manifestly goofy. I hate when people go around dropping little turds like this for someone else to have to clean up after them. Let me try and explain:

Fact A: No warranty is given against screen burn-in with LCD sets.
Assertion B: The lack of such warranty with plasma sets lends support to the supposition that screen burn-in is a real effect with plasma sets.

Contrary to what JBElliott is implying, Fact A does not say anything about the correctness or lack thereof of Assertion B. What he is implicitly proposing, is logically absurd.


If someone doesn't point out to people when they do silly things such as this, then how will they ever learn not to do silly things?

[Duffinator]

What would you do as a corporation? They did the smart thing, delegated production to a supplier that can provide a tech cheaper than they can produce, there by generating capital. LCD: now they have a two prong attack on the market, provide plasmas at a profit and provide LCDs at a profit. I'll say it again both technologies are nearing their end-of-life cycle.I would have invested in both technologies three years ago. I agree they are doing the right thing now.

When are the new Panasonic 800 series 58" plasmas supposed to hit the street? I'm going to need one by the end of April.

[stratman]

I would have invested in both technologies three years ago. I agree they are doing the right thing now.

When are the new Panasonic 800 series 58" plasmas supposed to hit the street? I'm going to need one by the end of April.

I've been hearing conflicting reports, some say now in Spring others are saying August, I'm really not sure. I tell you what though, those new 50" KUROS are beautiful, but way too much money. The Panny is a better deal.

[JBElliott]

The logic that is implied by this rhetorical question is manifestly goofy. I hate when people go around dropping little turds like this for someone else to have to clean up after them. Let me try and explain:

Fact A: No warranty is given against screen burn-in with LCD sets.
Assertion B: The lack of such warranty with plasma sets lends support to the supposition that screen burn-in is a real effect with plasma sets.

Contrary to what JBElliott is implying, Fact A does not say anything about the correctness or lack thereof of Assertion B. What he is implicitly proposing, is logically absurd.


If someone doesn't point out to people when they do silly things such as this, then how will they ever learn not to do silly things?

That's what I was doing. Pointing out the silly thing you were doing. :D

[enormo]

Let's see, comparing plasma with LCD, LCD uses less power, generates less heat, is lighter weight, is better for viewing in lighted rooms (which is how most people view), zero chance of "burn in"...how do you come to the conclusion that an "inferior" technology won?

TVs show moving pictures. Plasma's moving pictures are better.

[tsteves]

"The future looks bright. We can't wait to see what happens next."
I have lost all respect for Clint.
Audioholics has now become the National Enquirer of Audio Video "magazines".

[mk7se]

Here is some info from Gizmodo...http://gizmodo.com/364842/pioneer-will-give-kuro-secret-sauce-to-panasonic-says-nikkei

"According to a new Nikkei report, Pioneer is going to cease plasma production, as we suspected, but will not just become a passive buyer of Panasonic's plasma technology. Instead, it will combine forces with Panasonic (aka Matsushita) to make sure that the hot Kuro line doesn't fall in quality. At the same time, Panasonic benefits even more, getting all that sexy intellectual property to make ultra-black panels.

The two firms are expected to combine their strengths to develop low-cost, high-quality panels. Plasma TVs based on a jointly developed panel will likely be added to their individual product lineups as early as 2009. Some Pioneer engineers may be transferred to Matsushita in the process."


Like I said before, I wonder what kind of headline Clint would have posted had this been their beloved Denon brand?

[MDS]

Some of you guys are just way too harsh and are definitely not looking at the news objectively. Don't bash the article and its author just because you are a fan of Plasma and want to see it survive.

The fact is Pioneer is ceasing to make their own panels and will instead buy from Panasonic. That is step one towards phasing out Plasma from the product line altogether in the near future. Step two is shifting more resources towards LCD development which is what it and every other company is also doing - including Panasonic.

Of all the arguments we see time and time again the only thing Plasma has going for it is 'picture quality' and a lower price for large sizes - it fails in every other comparison (see Pyrrho's posts - he covered pretty much all of them). Picture quality is entirely subjective and the simple fact is that 90% of the TV buying public doesn't perceive any difference between Plasma and LCD. Over time the picture quality and price differences will narrow too.

Go to any electronics store or online retailer and compare the number of Plasma sets available vs the number of LCD sets. Usually there are three times as many LCD sets available. Sometimes your favorite team doesn't win, for whatever reason.

[tsteves]

MDS
"Picture quality is entirely subjective"
This could not be more wrong.

"the only thing Plasma has going for it is 'picture quality' and a lower price for large sizes - it fails in every other comparison"
Wrong, and besides - picture quality would seem to be the most important for a video display.

"Go to any electronics store or online retailer and compare the number of Plasma sets available vs the number of LCD sets"
Irrelevant.
This is not about winners and losers, it's about disingenuous hype. But, hey, I'm sure it got of lot of page views. So it may be disingenuous hype, but it isn't stupid disingenuous hype.

[1tribeca]

It could be a sad state of affairs all in all. The numbers of buyers who are TRULY concerned with the product's capability is dwindling I'm afraid...otherwise Pioneer Elite panels would be the best seller...regardless of price.

There is the buyer who wants a "good" TV, but will not dish large coin, then there's the buyer who obviously isn't bleeding cash, but puts performance above all else. These folks are diminishing dontcha think?

How many retailers (and I'm talking about quality brand carriers, not BB and that mass market tripe) still have a large portion of the retail environment dedicated to 2-channel audio. I used to love going into the high end shops and being surrounded by really nice, quality audio.

Curse the Mp3 and blasted iPod!!!

Lossless audio, high fidelity, and vinyl records should be a mandatory subject from grade 2 onwards!!!

[stratman]

It could be a sad state of affairs all in all. The numbers of buyers who are TRULY concerned with the product's capability is dwindling I'm afraid...otherwise Pioneer Elite panels would be the best seller...regardless of price.

There is the buyer who wants a "good" TV, but will not dish large coin, then there's the buyer who obviously isn't bleeding cash, but puts performance above all else. These folks are diminishing dontcha think?

How many retailers (and I'm talking about quality brand carriers, not BB and that mass market tripe) still have a large portion of the retail environment dedicated to 2-channel audio. I used to love going into the high end shops and being surrounded by really nice, quality audio.

Curse the Mp3 and blasted iPod!!!

Lossless audio, high fidelity, and vinyl records should be a mandatory subject from grade 2 on wards!!!

Consumers prefer convenience over performance and price point over quality.

[1tribeca]

Exactly...like I said, kinda sad. The Elite PRO-110 is way beyond my modest means, but all the same I'm saving every penny to grab one...I love the performance of the panel plain & simple. I could get a Panasonic PZ700 for much less coin, but the difference is too big for my liking. Guess I'm one of those quality over quantity guys.

[annunaki]

The problem here is quite simply that you are taking flaws that are present in many LCD panels and attributing those flaws to all LCD panels in a universal way. By analogy, it would be as though, if some of your relatives were known to be liars, that I went around saying that the problem with your family is that you are all liars.

The off-axis viewing issue is one example of this. This is unquestionably a problem with many LCD panels, but it is definitely NOT a universal problem with LCD panels. It is logically dubious to take a flaw that is generally present in some category of thing and claim that it is universally, invariably a flaw with that category of thing. That is exactly what you are doing, and it is simply B.S.

The same applies to your claims re the 120 Hz refresh rate. The 120 Hz refresh rate is not even an intrinsic part of LCD technology. The technical property of LCD molecules that can potentially lead to motion-related artifacts, is the hysteresis of the molecule, i.e., the resolving time for it to return, from the form where it permits light to pass, to the form where it does not permit light to pass. It has been true that the hysteresis of the molecules was generally so great as to cause motion smear. This is certainly not universally true of flat-panel LCD televisions today.

It was only necessary to reduce the hysteresis to the point where motion would look the same on an LCD panel using a 60 Hz refresh rate as it does on a CRT set using a 60 Hz refresh rate. But it is manifest that the resolving time of the molecules was decreased to the point that it even offered the potential for doubling the screen refresh rate. As I previously explained, it is not difficult to imagine ways in which this could be done poorly. In particular, if reverse 3:2 pulldown is applied to film-based content to extract the original 24 frames per each second, then exactly four additional frames have to be inserted between each of those original frames. The simplest way to do that will be by simple repetition of the original frame, in which case the effect that you see on a good, state-of-the-art flat panel LCD TV is for every intent and purpose the same as what you see when you watch that film-based content in a theater. When I watch DVD's sourced from film-based content, the motion looks entirely the same as motion looks when watching a movie in a movie theater. The inherent jerkiness of fast motion captured by a 24 fps film camera is faithfully preserved.

EVERY LCD panel I have looked at suffers to one degree or another from off angle uniformity. Some do it better than others, but it is still present. I am attributing these flaws to all LCDs because it is an inherent flaw with the technology at this point.

Some LCD's are pretty good with motion as they seem to have improved the response times. However, one must keep the 120hz features turned off for them to be remotely enjoyable. They still do not look as nice as good plasmas do however. Not to mention the plasmas cost less money and give better performance.

[MDS]

MDS
"Picture quality is entirely subjective"
This could not be more wrong.
But of course you didn't offer any facts to refute it, did you? Picture quality can be quantified with expensive test equipment but the point is that the vast majority of people don't know and don't care and as I said the majority of the TV buying public cannot discern any difference in quality between Plasma and LCD.


"the only thing Plasma has going for it is 'picture quality' and a lower price for large sizes - it fails in every other comparison"
Wrong, and besides - picture quality would seem to be the most important for a video display.
See above. Just saying 'wrong' does nothing to bolster your case. Show me facts.


"Go to any electronics store or online retailer and compare the number of Plasma sets available vs the number of LCD sets"
Irrelevant.
This is not about winners and losers, it's about disingenuous hype. But, hey, I'm sure it got of lot of page views. So it may be disingenuous hype, but it isn't stupid disingenuous hype.

It is entirely relevant and is in fact the whole point. The trend is pretty clear.

I bet if I look back in the thread you were one of the people bashing Clint because you are a fan of Plasma. There is nothing wrong with having a personal preference for Plasma but you have to be objective and weigh all the facts. Plasma is not dead, but it is on its way...and no amount of extra 'picture quality' is going to save it when the masses don't see it.

[mk7se]

Of all the arguments we see time and time again the only thing Plasma has going for it is 'picture quality' and a lower price for large sizes

Gee that should be enough for most folks....

Picture quality is entirely subjective and the simple fact is that 90% of the TV buying public doesn't perceive any difference between Plasma and LCD.

Wait a minute...the first post I quoted you says plasma has pic quality going for it, then you say most people can't see a difference. How can it have it going for it, but people can't see it?

The bottom line is that the general public isn't educated. It's funny how as you have stated lower price for larger sizes, and pic quality, but yet people are still choosing LCD. Just like they'll go choose Monster Cable to hook everything up, even though they can't tell a difference, and it's more expensive than the other cables the tv stores sell.
You think if they were actually educated on the differences in tvs and cables that the results wouldn't be different? It's all marketing....

Plasma unfortunately won't last forever, but hopefully we won't be left with LCD as the alternative either...

[MDS]

Wait a minute...the first post I quoted you says plasma has pic quality going for it, then you say most people can't see a difference. How can it have it going for it, but people can't see it?

Is that actually a serious question? Plasma measures better than LCD and in subjective viewing tests by people that actually know what to look for they usually score slightly higher than LCD. That slight difference gets more narrow every year.

The small number of people in that group are not the people that drive the market. The market is driven by the mass consumer - the people that don't know and don't care about the perceived difference in 'picture quality' - on the one hand and the business costs vs profits of the manufacturers on the other.

The article was about the market reality. The trend is towards LCD and is gathering steam and LCD's advantages far outweigh Plasmas in the minds of both consumers and manufacturers. You can't fight the market even if you want to feel that you are part of a select group that really 'gets it' and everyone else is an uneducated sucker being sold a bill of goods.

[mk7se]

Hmm... I think you just re-worded what I wrote....

[mk7se]

Hmmmm.....

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasonic/consumer_electronics/whitepapers/Future_Looks_Bright_for_Plasma_TVs.pdf

From above link...
The most exciting advancement in plasma TVs is occurring in luminous efficacy. Luminous efficacy can be simply
expressed as the relationship between luminance (brightness) and power consumption. As luminous efficacy improves,
higher brightness can be achieved at the same power levels and lower power can be achieved at the same brightness
levels. But the effects of higher luminous efficacy are not just limited to brightness and power. Improvements in luminous
efficacy will have far reaching effects in:
Brightness
• Power consumption
• Brightroom contrast
• Grayscale
• Design tolerances
• EMI
• Heat
• Reliability/lifetimes
• Device technology
• Process technology
• Panel costs
• Circuitry costs
• Mechanical costs
• Total costs
• Power supply costs
• Optical filter costs
As a result, increases in luminous efficacy should dramatically boost the competitiveness of plasma TVs vs. competing
TV technologies. This White Paper will examine when expected improvements in luminous efficacy are likely to occur
and what impact they will have on performance, panel costs, TV costs, TV prices and cost/price competitiveness vs.
LCD TVs.
In addition, plasma TVs have inherent advantages in motion performance which have been difficult to quantify until recently and not broadly marketed. We expect to see this advantage more widely demonstrated and marketed in the
future which should also improve the outlook for plasma TVs.
Finally, plasma TV cost advantages at larger sizes will also be quantified. As prices for larger sized TVs come down,
the 50” and larger TV market will grow rapidly and plasma TVs are well positioned to dominate these markets due to
their inherently lower costs than LCDs in this size category.

[Biggiesized]

Pioneer was shooting for 5 lumen tech this year.

[stratman]

Bottom line: Plasma and LCD will in the not-too-distant future cease to be, some other technology will replace it. That's the gist of the article. No one put a timeline to the demise of either plasma nor LCD, but it will happen.

[Buckeyefan 1]

The latest Kuro plasma's have been suffering from a loud buzz, which really ticked off a lot of Pioneer Elite backers. The picture was out of this world, but trying to overlook the "buzz" killed the deal. I wonder if that was part of the issue. Plasma's do have somewhat of a buzz compared to their LCD counterparts.

As others have said, plasma hands down has the better picture. It will suffer screen burn in, no matter what you're told. Every plasma comes with a warning the warranty does not cover screen burn in.

My 46" 1080p Aquos has an amazing HD picture, and works great with our PC in our main room. The anti reflective screen is also very nice. It does suffer from color banding, like every other LCD I own. The bigger the screen, the more obvious the banding.

My 50" 720p Samsung plasma in our living room is the flat screen of choice for sports and movies. Even with it's glass screen, the reflection isn't bad at all. There's no ghosting, no banding, and the contrast, blacks, colors, and brightness beats our Aquos into the ground. It's our "wow" tv.

Everything is relative. If I didn't own a 50" plasma, I would be more than satisfied at the picture compared to our last sets. Owning both technologies, I'm always trying to bump the contrast and sharpness on the LCD. With the plasma, I never go for the adjustments.

Just because Pioneer quit manufacturing plasma panels doesn't mean the technology is dead. FWIW, the Aquos ran me $1150 and the Samsung plasma $884 out the door just before Black Friday. The plasma was the better deal, even at 720p.

[bandphan]

The latest Kuroo plasma's have been suffering from a loud buzz, which really ticked off a lot of Pioneer Elite backers. The picture was out of this world, but trying to overlook the "buzz" killed the deal. I wonder if that was part of the issue. Plasma's do have somewhat of a buzz compared to their LCD counterparts.

the buzz is a non issue with all the installs ive done, i and my clients dont think that Killed the deal at all. There is a hum to plasmas but most wouldnt trade theirs for an lcd. Ive of the opinon that while lcds can look good, plasmas look better. As stated in my previous post, their buissness model is what did them in.

[tsteves]

MDS
"Picture quality is entirely subjective"
#This could not be more wrong.
Quote:
"But of course you didn't offer any facts to refute it, did you? Picture quality can be quantified with expensive test equipment but the point is that the vast majority of people don't know and don't care and as I said the majority of the TV buying public cannot discern any difference in quality between Plasma and LCD."

What you said is : "Picture quality is entirely subjective" Which is patently absurd. Don't move the goalposts now. Where are any facts that support this?

Quote:
"the only thing Plasma has going for it is 'picture quality' and a lower price for large sizes - it fails in every other comparison"
#Wrong, and besides - picture quality would seem to be the most important for a video display.
Quote:
"See above. Just saying 'wrong' does nothing to bolster your case. Show me facts."

Where are your facts? "Picture Quality" is a bit vague, but would seem to me the main measure of a displays quality. LCD's are perfect for the casual viewer. Where else does it excel?

Quote:
"Go to any electronics store or online retailer and compare the number of Plasma sets available vs the number of LCD sets"
Irrelevant.
#This is not about winners and losers, it's about disingenuous hype. But, hey, I'm sure it got of lot of page views. So it may be disingenuous hype, but it isn't stupid disingenuous hype.
Quote:
"It is entirely relevant and is in fact the whole point. The trend is pretty clear."

Yes, the trend is clear. It is a sad trend for lovers of quality. I do disagree that this is the point. It is not the point I am complaining about.

Quote:
"I bet if I look back in the thread you were one of the people bashing Clint because you are a fan of Plasma. There is nothing wrong with having a personal preference for Plasma but you have to be objective and weigh all the facts. Plasma is not dead, but it is on its way...and no amount of extra 'picture quality' is going to save it when the masses don't see it."

Yes, I did complain about Clints story. In the podcast he complained that manufacturers don't respect Audioholics as a magazine. Well, it is a great Website, but I'd guess that not a lot of print magazines are going to throw up a "PLASMA IS DEAD!" headline over this. I just think it is a bit over the top and not real sound journalism.

[yettitheman]

Wow, what a pissing match! :D
Let me throw down...

A: Plasma - NOT DEAD. They are still being made and sold. Technically, that means they are twitching.
B: All the technologies exist right now are because there isn't one to replace CRT in my mind. We've used CRT's for how many years and now all of the sudden, "BOOM! Lets make lots of **** that has at least one thing that equals CRT picture quality!" Great idea... except nobody has really declared a winner. It's similar to HD-DVD Vs. Blu-Ray, except throw in more technologies like (oh lets make some names up shall we?) HD-BlueMuffin, Blue-TrueView, HD-UltraDigitalMaxorz, Advanced Progressive High Technology Extreme Digital Versatile Disc Cartridge Movie Playback System and Soda Fountain.
C: I happen to be a physic, and one day all of these will be dead or near non-existent on the consumer market. Why? There will be something better.
Like amplifier technology...
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g297/yettitheman/HT/1609bc5b.jpg
^ That is old crap.

THIS is the new hotness and greatest trend:
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g297/yettitheman/DSCF0096.jpg
It kills Anthem's and Emotiva's like **** Cheney shoots senators :D


BTW... can I be funny and say this is all blamed on the consumption of chicken sandwiches?
http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g297/yettitheman/flip45.gif

[stratman]

"manufacturers don't respect Audioholics as a magazine"


I would venture to say that any manufacturer that doesn't respect Audioholics as a magazine has something to hide, or doesn't like the white glare of truth pointed at their equipment as it gets a thorough review. Although they will like the garbage that passes itself as "authoritative" that caters to their advertising dollars, these are the same that spout silver cables will make your system dance or placing stones on equipment or using green markers on CDs will blaze a path to nirvana, even though this snake oil has been disproven over and over again. Shamefully, these companies care more for the all-mighty buck than the truth or the consumer's interest, so yes it wouldn't surprise me if certain companies won't like Audioholic's truthful reviews. As for the so called "horrid piece" about plasma being dead, well, too many are reading too much into an editorial. Did anyone specifically say when plasma was going to "die?" Did anyone say "after Pioneer's pull out, plasma is dead FOR SURE," In defense of the article, I will say this, people took a few key words and ran with it, without really digesting the obvious. Was it correct to say that one of the hi-def formats was going to die? Is it correct to say that Blu-ray one day will die? Is it correct to say that technology today as opposed to 10 or 15 years ago reaches end-of-life cycles faster? Yes to all. Plasma will die, LCD will die, when? When the market says so. Let's not forget that market forces determine the policy CE manufacturers adopt regarding product longevity, introduction and termination. Pioneer needed desperately to stop production of plasma screens, it cost them too much money, the market didn't respond to their price points and like Toshiba they pressed the issue, which led to massive capitol hemorrhaging. Don't forget that at the end of the day the sole mission of a publicly traded corporation is to provide investors with a comfortable bottom line, something that Pioneer hasn't been doing for a while, their stock shot up after the announcement.

[yettitheman]

As for the so called "horrid piece" about plasma being dead, well, too many are reading too much into an editorial.


I agree. It is inevitable, Mr. Anderson :D

[stratman]

I agree. It is inevitable, Mr. Anderson :D

One of my favorite "anti-hero.":D

[JackT]

As for the so called "horrid piece" about plasma being dead, well, too many are reading too much into an editorial. Did anyone specifically say when plasma was going to "die?"

Oh come on. If you put PLASMA IS DEAD in the title, you can't really say people are "reading too much" into it, can you? What was the author expecting?

Some people are claiming that the article was merely explaining that plasma will be gone "some day", which, if true, makes the article utterly trivial and pointless, because, of course, ALL TECHNOLOGIES will be gone SOME DAY.

Hey, I predicted CRT was dead in 1930, and LO AND BEHOLD I was right!!!

[stratman]

Oh come on. If you put PLASMA IS DEAD in the title, you can't really say people are "reading too much" into it, can you? What was the author expecting?

Some people are claiming that the article was merely explaining that plasma will be gone "some day", which, if true, makes the article utterly trivial and pointless, because, of course, ALL TECHNOLOGIES will be gone SOME DAY.

Hey, I predicted CRT was dead in 1930, and LO AND BEHOLD I was right!!!

Jack, it was pure editorializing. Ask Clint personally if he thinks plasma will be dead in two years and I'm sure he'll say most likely not. What the title did do was grab people's attention to the fact that one of the highest regarded manufacturers was stopping internal production. I still don't understand why so many got into a hissy fit. I am a plasma and an LCD owner, I wasn't offended by the title or the discussion, yes both techs will die, so what, it happens all the time, it's one of the inviolable laws of CE. I'm just perplexed at how some responded with such virulence, that was ridiculous.

[Jack Hammer]

This is starting to sound like one of the HD DVD vs Blu-Ray threads.:eek:

Jack:D

[JackT]

Jack, it was pure editorializing. Ask Clint personally if he thinks plasma will be dead in two years and I'm sure he'll say most likely not. What the title did do was grab people's attention to the fact that one of the highest regarded manufacturers was stopping internal production.

Nope, sorry. If it was just a crazy title to catch people's attention, what about this statement found halfway through the article:

You heard it here first: Plasma TV is dead.

Another crazy attention grabber?

[tsteves]

YOU ARE DEAD!
Yep, you heard it here first!
Just because it is inevitable does not make it current news.

Clint predicted Plasma would die, like, a year ago or something, maybe why he wants wants plasma to die, so he can be right. Nothing wrong with that, per se, just not entirely "editor in chief" type of copy. Audioholics is one of, if not the premiere site(s) for "no bs" audio video info on the internet, I don't want to see it getting sloppy. So this is like, my letter to the editor.
Look I like LCD. I recommend them all the time to people who are more likely to benefit from their positive attributes. I won't to sad to see Plasma die, when it does, something better will have prevailed. This is in no way like the HD player war, it is just different video technologies. People who are "advocates" of one tech over another are just plain misguided.

[stratman]

Well, the best solution to this spaghetti incident is to ask Clint, let him straighten it out. OK CLINT, WHAT DO YOU THINK IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO PLASMA? WHEN WILL IT "DIE?" Your audience needs to know.:)

[MDS]

Lighten up, it's just a prediction. A few posts back (can't remember who without scrolling back) someone joked that they predicted the death of CRT in the '30s. That is an especially prescient prediction considering CRT wasn't invented until the '50s. :D

[1tribeca]

Wow! Don't mean to sound like Woody Allen here, but ya'll realize none of us will be walking this planet in a few decades right? (aasuming you're in your late 30's or 40's) you might want to put things into perspective. It's a TV people...settle down!

How can you get offended by Clint's comment(s) I agree with Strat once again...both technolgies will be obsolete soon enough. Til then, enjoy what you prefer.

Either way, I'm sure installers are happy...no more herniated lumbar discs from heaving XBR CRTs around anymore!! They can only get slimmer & lighter from here on...yay!!!

[croseiv]

I do find myself wondering what the next technology will be though (beyond palsma/LCD).

[1tribeca]

Seems OLED is being worked on quite feverishly.

[davidtwotrees]

Well, I didn't like the title, seeing as I just finished setting up a panny plasma a week before! Smiles. It's all good. The best part was yesterday my Polish neighbor and his brother, who are both about 6'4" 275#, walked in, gave me $400 cash, and picked up my 250# Sony Rear Projection TV like it was nothing and walked out with it. I didn't cry one tear..........
My side firing Canton's just opened up another notch sonically! They had been "firing" into the side of that giant TV for some time now. Plasma might be dead, but mine is alive and kicking........now if I could get the big network channels to stop looking like carppola on the panny!

[JackT]

Wow! Don't mean to sound like Woody Allen here, but ya'll realize none of us will be walking this planet in a few decades right? (aasuming you're in your late 30's or 40's) you might want to put things into perspective. It's a TV people...settle down!


Well then why bother with any of it? TVs, websites, discussions, you reading this, etc? Yes, after all, the sun will explode someday.

If it's important enough to write a "Plasma is Dead" article, then it's important enough for a few comments, no? If you don't mind terribly, that is.

[croseiv]

. Plasma might be dead, but mine is alive and kicking........now if I could get the big network channels to stop looking like carppola on the panny!


I hear ya bro! I feel the same way.

[stratman]

Well, I didn't like the title, seeing as I just finished setting up a panny plasma a week before! Smiles. It's all good. The best part was yesterday my Polish neighbor and his brother, who are both about 6'4" 275#, walked in, gave me $400 cash, and picked up my 250# Sony Rear Projection TV like it was nothing and walked out with it. I didn't cry one tear..........
My side firing Canton's just opened up another notch sonically! They had been "firing" into the side of that giant TV for some time now. Plasma might be dead, but mine is alive and kicking........now if I could get the big network channels to stop looking like carppola on the panny!

I say you need HD content, fast!:D

[1tribeca]

Well then why bother with any of it? TVs, websites, discussions, you reading this, etc? Yes, after all, the sun will explode someday.

If it's important enough to write a "Plasma is Dead" article, then it's important enough for a few comments, no? If you don't mind terribly, that is.

True enough...I'm just saying relax. I'm surrounded by KUROs all day...I'm gonna miss 'em more than most, but I take comfort in the fact that something better will be along hopefully sooner than later. It's just a TV. Perhaps in a couple short years, OLED will be spectacular.

Hey, it's been 41 years since the Leafs won a Stanley Cup...we're all still breathing. Patience. God they suck!!!

[Biggiesized]

Modern plasmas don't suffer from burn-in because of features like the picture orbiter. They are, however, still susceptible to image retention.

[Davemcc]

Hey, it's been 41 years since the Leafs won a Stanley Cup...we're all still breathing. Patience. God they suck!!!

Medical science is not advancing rapidly enough for you to see the Leafs win another Cup.:D

3D holographic TV, maybe. Lord Stanley's Cup in Hogtown? Fuggetaboutit.
The closest the Leafs will get to the cup will be viewing it with a paid admission to the Hockey Hall of Fame.:p

[davidtwotrees]

I say you need HD content, fast!:D

I'm on the fence. My cable was "on" when I moved here. So the price is "free". I don't watch a lot of tv......and money is tighttighttight. Also, I am north facing so can't do a dish. Comcast sucks. I am waiting for ATT to bring in their entry to the HD programming. The trucks have been working in the utility ducts underground here for some time. I think they are doing HD optical out there...........Then I will bite as they have good packages for HD and Internet. Does anyone have ATT HD (non dish)?

[audiovideobob]

Hi Clint
I'm just wondering if you are prepared to respond to the title of your article,since it is not true that plasma is dead.Pioneer is simply going to out source their panels.Not uncommon in this business.They are also expanding by going to smaller flat panels using LCD technology.

[GuyClinch]

Honestly I suspect the poster is right..

I bought a new TV - and it was the "horrible" LCD.

Why? The gap between LCD's and Plasma's is narrowed - to the point where against the best LCDs I had to stare a bit to tell which one was an LCD and which one is a a Plasma.

I do think Plasma is better but it's not a huge gap especially with the nicer LCD screens. They have really improved black levels and with LED backlighting have the ability to SURPASS Plasma.

That leaves motion blur - with the 8MS panel it's a problem but my experience with LCD monitors has taught me that around 2MS it's "good enough"..

So why did I go with LCD?

1) Image retention.

I just don't want to WORRY about it. I game. Icons stay in place for HOURS at a time. My g/f is playing Pixel Junk Monsters right now and it sticks an ICON in there and just sits there for hours and hours on end. I heard a Plasma owner screaming about this very problem.

I run windows on my screen as well - and that just sits there for hours and hours - the start menu.

2) Plasma experience.

Yes I never owned a plasma but while little LCD screens are around that look like crap - Plasma's FADE over time. I know because I see it every day. I see real estate offices with BADLY burnt in and faded large plasma screens. That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can't buy into a technology like that.

With LCDs the back light will fail but in the meantime it's a pretty good picture till that happens.. With an LED backlighting it will probably NEVER fail. Those things could last 20 years.

[Pyrrho]

Modern plasmas don't suffer from burn-in because of features like the picture orbiter. They are, however, still susceptible to image retention.

Nonsense. If they were not subject to burn-in, they would have a warranty for it. Also, you might want to talk to this guy about his burn-in problems:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42394

[Biggiesized]

Nonsense. If they were not subject to burn-in, they would have a warranty for it. Also, you might want to talk to this guy about his burn-in problems:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42394
We don't even know for sure that his screen has a burn-in problem. There is a difference between that and image retention. He didn't describe his problem in any detail amongst his enraged ramblings. Image retention should be correctable. Permanent burn-in damage shouldn't occur in modern sets because, as I mentioned earlier, they have functions to shift pixels to prevent the same image/logo from lingering in the same spot.

[Pyrrho]

We don't even know for sure that his screen has a burn-in problem. There is a difference between that and image retention. He didn't describe his problem in any detail amongst his enraged ramblings. Image retention should be correctable. Permanent burn-in damage shouldn't occur in modern sets because, as I mentioned earlier, they have functions to shift pixels to prevent the same image/logo from lingering in the same spot.


Most, if not all, of the manufacturers of plasma TVs disagree with you on this. Just do some reading of the manuals and warranty information and you will see them mention burn-in as something that they will not guarantee against. If it were not real, there would be no reason for them to mention it. And there would be no reason to specifically exclude it from warranties.

[MDS]

Pixel shifting mitigates the problem but does not eliminate it entirely.

Image Retention really only applies to LCD and is a phenomenon where the crystals have been in one state for so long that they are slow to respond to changes. It is not permanent and will go away if the set is turned off for a little while.

Image retention on a plasma or crt is really just a mild case of burn-in. Plasma excites phosphors on the screen and when the image is constantly changing they don't stay in one state very long. When they are constantly bombarded with the same color for a long time they retain their glow for a long time. It may go away or it may not - it's a risk that you must constantly guard against and that's just too much hassle given that nowadays every damn channel has constant network logos and ads.

[Alex2507]

Pixel shifting mitigates the problem but does not eliminate it entirely.

Image Retention really only applies to LCD and is a phenomenon where the crystals have been in one state for so long that they are slow to respond to changes. It is not permanent and will go away if the set is turned off for a little while.

.

My LCD listed in my sig. has burn in where the black bar on the right begins, so it's a vertical line about 3 or 4 inches in from the right. One of the local channels broadcasts in HD but the image is 4:3 with the bars. On regular channels I stretch the picture to avoid this burn in. It happened to me before and I did get a replacement in the 11th hour of the warranty. That line came back on the replacement set. I figured it was here to stay until I replaced the TV. It's only noticeable if a certain type of picture or shade is present on that side of the screen. Anyways, there is a way to make this go away? Just leave the TV off? Seems like there has to be more to it and I am here to learn.

[Biggiesized]

Most, if not all, of the manufacturers of plasma TVs disagree with you on this. Just do some reading of the manuals and warranty information and you will see them mention burn-in as something that they will not guarantee against. If it were not real, there would be no reason for them to mention it. And there would be no reason to specifically exclude it from warranties.
I don't disagree with what you are saying, but you failed to address my post.

He may or may not have permanent burn-in.

[Biggiesized]

My LCD listed in my sig. has burn in where the black bar on the right begins, so it's a vertical line about 3 or 4 inches in from the right. One of the local channels broadcasts in HD but the image is 4:3 with the bars. On regular channels I stretch the picture to avoid this burn in. It happened to me before and I did get a replacement in the 11th hour of the warranty. That line came back on the replacement set. I figured it was here to stay until I replaced the TV. It's only noticeable if a certain type of picture or shade is present on that side of the screen. Anyways, there is a way to make this go away? Just leave the TV off? Seems like there has to be more to it and I am here to learn.
Are you sure it isn't a broadcasting artefact or a column of dead pixels?

[ChrisG]

You heard it here first: Plasma TV is dead. As we predicted several years ago, plasma technology is on its way out. Putting one of the nails in the lengthy coffin is Pioneer Corp, who is stopping ALL production of plasma display panels. Last week we reported that they had decided to stop all 42-inch panel production, however that has now been expanded to its entire plasma line. Rather than panic, Pioneer shares immediately jumped to a four-month high following the report - up 11.2 percent. Pioneer is the world's fifth-largest plasma TV manufacturer and has constantly struggled for relevance against the larger Panasonic brand (Matsushita). Now, Pioneer will buy its panels from the competing brand and it will begin picking up LCD panels from... you guessed it - Sharp.


Well, Pioneer is not exiting the plasma business, so this news "flash" borders on a check-out counter gossip column. Additionally, I don't understand why Clint is so excited about LCDs when the picture quality is much better from plasma displays.

According to a Q&A Pioneer sent to dealers:

- Pioneer is outsourcing the production of plasma panels ONLY. Design, engineering and final assembly will still be done by Pioneer. Secondly, they discontinued the 42" plasma because of slow sales and it is cost prohibitive to make KUROS in the 42" size. Finally, they are going to continue to design and sell plasma displays that are 60" and up which are needed for home theater viewing in the North American market.

- Pioneer still believes that plasma offers the best picture from a flat panel display, so for critical viewing, they will continue to develop the KURO displays -- a premium set that they are marketing to a discriminating audience. LCDs will be sold for smaller, secondary viewing rooms like bedrooms, offices, kitchens, etc and they are partnering with Sharp on these.

- As for discontinuing making panels themselves, there won't be any production changes in 2008, the next generation KURO is already in production in Pioneer's factories. There will some glimpses of production changes in 2009 and even more changes in 2010.

- Pioneer is going to continue to design and engineer the displays and having someone else make the panels will allow them to invest money into innovations for the home theater category.

I'm glad I was able to talk to my dealer in order to get the real story since a KURO will probably be replacing my Panasonic plasma sometime in the near future.

[Gatsby191]

I have been to like 10 different BBs, CCs, PC Richards, Sears, etc, and I was able to do this simple side by side(well not exactly side by side)test on 3 occasions so far. Here it is: Took a certain Movie by Disney Pixar with talking CARS in it, and another certain movie with Bruce Willis in it (Live Free or Die Hard), and had them played on both a Plasma and a LCD.(both 1080P) One time with both sets playing the same movie, at the same time with the DVD signal split to both sets, and one time with seperate dvd player hooked up to each set. Not the sales person, not me, and not anyone else who happenned to catch this demo could deny that the PLASMAs had a better PQ no matter what brand set was used, and the screen sizes were all comparable too. BTW: Lighting was "normal" in every demo. The action was more on the money with plasma, the colors more vibrant, and every detail more precise. Of course this is only MHO, and everyone else's HO that witnessed these demos. I know I am going to hear about the lack of a demo on broadcasts, but in all honesty, the few Basketball games, or Soccer Games that I noticed on a few occasions, looked as sharp as ever on the Plasmas too. But the movie test told me everything that I needed to know in order to pick the winner in this LCD vs. Plasma dilema.
Take care all, Joe B.

[Alex2507]

Are you sure it isn't a broadcasting artefact or a column of dead pixels?

I don't think it's anything being broadcast because the line is there even when DVD's are played. Could be dead pixels. The only thing I'm sure of is that we just bought a Panasonic TH-50PZ77U.

I was only gonna buy an Elvis CD for my girl but the Tweeter was right beside the Borders. :)

[Clint DeBoer]

Lighting was "normal" in every demo. The action was more on the money with plasma, the colors more vibrant, and every detail more precise. Of course this is only MHO, and everyone else's HO that witnessed these demos.I personally like plasma better for theater use, however I also recognize that the 'flamethrower' settings they use in stores does NOT make for a good comparison. Ever. Unless you know what you are doing and bring a test disc to calibrate black levels, etc - LCD will almost always look washed out, though much brighter as well.

[JackT]

Philips has announced it will have its LCD TVs manufactured by Funai. LCD is dead!!!!!!!!!

[croseiv]

Philips has announced it will have its LCD TVs manufactured by Funai. LCD is dead!!!!!!!!!

LOL!:eek::D

[Clint DeBoer]

Funny! That's just a licensing deal, however. Philips isn't shutting down it's LCD manufacturing or plasma manufacturing plants and outsourcing its core production component.

[Biggiesized]

That's strange. LG.Phillips makes some of the best LCD panels in the world.

[bandphan]

That's strange. LG.Phillips makes some of the best LCD panels in the world.

phillips is not branding panels in na, thats all, they will still be here under syntax and other brands.

[jonnythan]

I read on AVS that Pioneer had an extremely inefficient plasma operation, making only one panel at a time, vs other manufacturers that were pumping them out 5 or 9 at a time from one piece of glass.

Furthermore, the word there was that Pioneer is simply licensing their plasma technology and know-how to other panel manufacturers, and that they will continue to research, develop, and market their plasma panels (which will no doubt still be the best).

So they just shut down an extremely inefficient, unprofitable plasma factory and are outsourcing the actual manufacture to other factories instead of making a new one.

[JackT]

Funny! That's just a licensing deal, however. Philips isn't shutting down it's LCD manufacturing or plasma manufacturing plants and outsourcing its core production component.

OMG JVC just dropped out of the consumer LCD business in Japan. Teh LCD is even deader than before!!!!!!!