If Hd Dvd Dies, Will You Buy Bd?

[stratman]

For those that haven't jumped on the bandwagon yet, will you buy a Bluray player if HD DVD dies off officially? How about you guys that already own HD DVD machines, will you go ahead and buy a Bluray player? Will you wait for Black Friday or will you purchase on onset of breaking news from Toshiba?

[allargon]

A lot of us don't hate BD. We just think it's underfeatured (and most of all) overpriced. You can buy almost 3 standalone HD DVD players for the same or less than an obsolescent Bonus View Blu-Ray standalone right now.

(Really, why are they even bothering not adding Ethernet ports to $500 players?)

[j_garcia]

They ARE adding ethernet ports to $500 players...according to CES releases the BD-50 will hopefully have a street price right around there (profile 2.0). With the release of profile 1.1 it BD is no longer "underfeatured", and I don't really see a big benefit to PiP commentary/behind the scenes anyway.

The cheapest HD DVD players are cheaper because Toshiba is either taking a loss or making no money at all on them to get them out there, but without significant studio support it doesn't really matter.

[Seth=L]

A lot of us don't hate BD. We just think it's underfeatured (and most of all) overpriced. You can buy almost 3 standalone HD DVD players for the same or less than an obsolescent Bonus View Blu-Ray standalone right now.

(Really, why are they even bothering not adding Ethernet ports to $500 players?)
One of the $500 and under players has an Ethernet port, the PS3:D, the most expandable Blu-ray player available.;)

[Seth=L]

They ARE adding ethernet ports to $500 players...according to CES releases (profile 2.0 players). With the release of profile 1.1 it BD is no longer "underfeatured", and I don't really see a big benefit to PiP commentary/behind the scenes anyway.

The cheapest HD DVD players are cheaper because Toshiba is either taking a loss or making no money at all on them to get them out there, but without significant studio support it doesn't really matter.
I am starting to think they knew they where going to loose their grip a long time ago, and hense the huge blow-out sale at Wal-Mart.:D

[stratman]

They ARE adding ethernet ports to $500 players...according to CES releases (profile 2.0 players). With the release of profile 1.1 it BD is no longer "underfeatured", and I don't really see a big benefit to PiP commentary/behind the scenes anyway.

The cheapest HD DVD players are cheaper because Toshiba is either taking a loss or making no money at all on them to get them out there, but without significant studio support it doesn't really matter.

They're taking a hit, enough so that a couple of marketing research firms (one being Understanding and Solutions, Inc.) are hedging their bet against Toshiba winning and are saying that any support Toshiba has will probably disappear by the end of 2008. For it's part Toshiba is starting a campaign blitz (too little too late) and get this "chopping the HD A3 to $149.00 and the A30 to $199.99 and finally the flagship A35 at $299.99".

[Buckeye_Nut]

I think the resident K-mart shoppers should hold off a little longer, because the 'average' price for a HD-dvd player will soon be <$100.

[The Dukester]

I bought an A2 for $98 @ Wally world. I had determined to wait this war out another year, but at that price, couldn't say no. Since then, I bought one of the Samsung 5000 duo players b/c I liked HDM and wanted some of the titles BD had. The 5000 has so much potential, but is just not cutting it atm. Firmware has not come out and we are getting way too many different answers from them on when or even if it will. Not too sure I'll keep it beyond my return window of Jan 31. We'll see. If they don't fix it or put in writing when they will, I will return it and buy a stand alone BD later this year. I may wait until BF to buy it and just suffer not having BD for now. BD just seems to have way too many playback issues right now. I know HD DVD had some as well, but seems like not as many and not as long as BD.:(

I was really pulling for Toshiba and HD DVD. If the prices keep dropping on the players and I can find a new (or even used, if it's low enough) XA2 or even a third gen high end player for HD DVD, I will. I will also keep buying the discs. The biggest thing I would have against the A2 is no 1080p. I don't have a display that I can use it on atm, but will look at a new 1080p pj buy the end of the year, depending on my financial situation (Strat, you are really having a negative influence on my optomism for the economy!) and what I can find.

I'm a little perturbed at the DLP group for not putting out 3 chip players to compete with all the new LCD units coming out. LCD is going to blow right by them if they don't do something. I like DLP better, but won't pay a big up-charge to get it.

[D.R. Payne]

Higher prices are not nearly as bad as people make it out to be. When I look at what I have invested in my home theater the movie disc transport is the cheapest part of the whole thing by a very large margin. The last Denon DVD player I bought I paid just over $200 for because I care about quality. Toshiba's HD-DVD players are selling for LESS than a quality DVD player?

The race-to-the-bottom player prices is why Toshiba has been going it alone. It's gotten very difficult to make money on DVD players, so CE manufacturers were attracted to something that would have a margin for them. Yes, prices will go down over time, but companies are used to recouping some R&D costs from the early adopters. Every single person I know with a home theater (dedicated rooms and livingrooms) have a DVD player that costs more than $300 and recievers/pre-amps for $2000 and up. The perception that players must be < $200 seems odd to me.

[The Dukester]

Every single person I know with a home theater (dedicated rooms and livingrooms) have a DVD player that costs more than $300 and recievers/pre-amps for $2000 and up. The perception that players must be < $200 seems odd to me.


You obviously don't know me.:D;)

All kidding aside, receivers, amps, preamps and speakers are uints that don't require anything other than power after you buy them, unless you want to include wiring. To me, when you buy a DVD player, you also have to consider you will keep putting money into it by buying or renting discs. The high price of the player coupled with the high prices of the discs are what kept me out of the war up until the $98 WW players.

[Nomo]

I'll probably sit tight for a while wth my A2. probably at least till summer, regardless of the future of HD-DVD.
But yes, considering the improvement in PQ of the HD formats. I'll most likely be buying a stand alone BD player. When the prices drop under $200.;)

[j_garcia]

I figured Blu would win, but I picked up my A2 because it was cheap also. The number of movies I want to purchase is fairly slim, but for the price it is a good upscaling player. The only problem is, my Oppo is just as good at upscaling if not a bit better and it does SACD and DVD-A also... I do plan on purchasing a stand alone BD player here in the near future, probably the BD-50.

[spacedteddybear]

I'm personally gonna do the opposite. BD still has a ways to go before it becomes a complete format. I know there are some tech fanboys out there who must have the " in style" technology who'll dump their HD players and media for cheap. Hopefully, it'll be an XA2, mainly for the upconversion quality of the player.

[GlocksRock]

I'm personally gonna do the opposite. BD still has a ways to go before it becomes a complete format. I know there are some tech fanboys out there who must have the " in style" technology who'll dump their HD players and media for cheap. Hopefully, it'll be an XA2, mainly for the upconversion quality of the player.

It will be a completed format when profile 2.0 is ready... and it is. The first disc that supports this will be out Jan. 22 (Saw IV) so I would expect Sony to release a firmware update for the PS3 that will make it 2.0 compliant sometime before next Tues. They were already demonstrating this with a PS3 at the CES show, so it's only a matter of time before the new blu ray players start shipping with 2.0. I think now most people are just waiting for the prices of stand alone blu ray players to come down to a level where they are willing to purchase them.

[patnshan]

I am not jumping into blu ray until a capable (read: can play and take advantage of ALL BD's!) non-Sony machine is available for $250 or less.
Until then, I can wait and watch SD DVD's and HD DVD's. I planned to wait anyway until Toshiba hit my magic price point. Until BDP's do, I am out.

Pat

[BMXTRIX]

The reality is that most people that are aware of the format war have already picked a side and only a certain few are incredible fanboys with their head in the sand.

Some are serious Sony haters claiming that Sony makes no good products at all.

Others just have invested a ton into HD DVD and refuse to think that they will have to dish out even more to continue to get the movies they want.

At the end of the day, the PS3 is the best current player on the market, as it was a year+ ago when it was released. It'll hit profile 2.0 specifications, and you can get a universal IR remote interface for it that allows 100% integration with any universal remote.

So, maybe the price is higher than the subsidized HD DVD players, but there's a reason those HD DVD players are being subsidized... and a reason why no other major CE manufacturer has ever made a stand alone HD DVD player.

So, I think that regardless of what some die hards will say - the real answer for most people is 'Yes' - whether they want it to be or not.

[mike c]

where do I download sony ps3 firmware to be burned on a disc, I have no intention of using LAN or network thingies to upgrade firmware. up to now, I don't even know if my 60gb ps3 has wifi built in or is only wifi compatible.

[j_garcia]

60G has wifi built in. Once connected, updates are automatically pushed to you. If an update is available, it is actually required for you to be able to log in, though you do not normally need to log in unless you want to do something online.

System Software Update Page (http://www.us.playstation.com/PS3/About/SystemUpdate).

[frostbyte]

I was hoping Blu Ray would win and have been waiting for a clear winner for well over 8 years now. I finally think it's clear enough to put some money int a player. I believe that with the PS3's constant upgrading ability that it's the winner for me despite a few features I would like changed. For the money, I can handle a little "engine" noise. I'll just sign up for Netflix again and rent their blu ray selections and buy the good ones like Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings type movies as they come out.

The format war has to end so the average person will join in.

As far as features from the movie go, I just want a better picture. Who cares about online features and all the stuff I've seen on the comercials that HD DVD can do. It's all about the video and audio content for me. Who's is better and will have room to continue to upgrade as new stuff comes out. HD DVD seems to have much tighter limits even with todays films such as Transformers.

So this has helped me make the plunge! If I buy this month, I can still get the 5 free Blu-Ray titles with my purchase!

[j_garcia]

Re:"engine noise" My A2 is no quieter than the PS3.

[frostbyte]

I have not heard it personally, but from what I've read from other forum members in a different site, it's a pretty noise machine compared to normal DVD players. More like a projector than a DVD player. My old projector was a little distracting, but my new one is pretty quiet. The PS3 will sit in the front of the room so it shouldn't be too bad no matter what unless it's a very quiet part of the movie. I think it's a small price to pay to have been able to buy a 1.0 profile player that will be upgradable to either 1.1 or 2.0 and probably anything else that may change. Kudos to Sony for this great support for a gaming system. I don't even play games and see it as my best option.

[j_garcia]

Yes, it isn't exactly a silent player, but it isn't too obtrusive either; as you said, it is noticeable during quiet passages - my A2 is also, though neither on the order of a projector IMO. Give it enough ventilation area and it should be fine (note that it vents out the side). The PS3 has low and high, and on high it would be more akin to a projector, but I have only had that happen once with mine and that was on a 100 degree day. The current update for the PS3 has taken it to Profile 1.1 (2.0 actually, current is 2.1)

[frostbyte]

Not sure if I should open a new thread or just ask here so I'll just do so here.

Can you use the hard drive in the PS3 for storing movies and music? I assume you can, but better ask just to be sure.

If I buy a PS3 now, will it be able to do anything PS3 adds later? Are all the updates just through the ethernet or will I have to send it in somewhere to get these mods?

Does it use the phone line for upgrades?

[j_garcia]

You can connect it wirelessly or via ethernet (no phone line). I believe the current models both have wifi built in, as did the 60G. If the 40G does not, then it can be added via USB adapter easily as was the case with the 20G. If you don't connect it, you can download updates and put them on a USB drive, a disc, or any type of media the PS3 can read (60G, 80G have a card reader built in) to update. See this post regarding updates: http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=358905&postcount=18

I use a 320G USB drive to store pictures, music and video externally, but you can also store them on the internal drive as well :) The internal drive is a SATA laptop drive so it can also be upgraded to a larger one.

[frostbyte]

Is there a thread dedicated to the PS3 that has all this info? I have WIFI so that's awesome! Can you just hot swap any larger SATA laptop drive or do you have to copy files to it first?

[j_garcia]

I haven't tried it myself, but it has a backup function and I read instructions that said back it up, swap the drive, the PS3 will automatically format the new drive and then you restore your backed up data, though I would say it is going to be best to try this before you have installed anything significant as it says not everything is backed up (for whatever reason). There are a variety of threads in the Gaming area mainly, but no one thread that has everything.

[mike c]

my toshiba A35 is noisier than my ps3. unlike the regular fan noise of projectors and receivers ... my A35 whirrs.

[frostbyte]

Well, I sprung for a PS3 last night and it's AWESOME!! I can barely hear it at all with nothing on and standing right in front of it. Beautiful picture even with my 100" screen and $900 projector. Very amazed. I though for $900 it wouldn't be that much better with anything better than DVD, but I was wrong. I also bought the first 4 Harry Potter movies on Blu Ray. Guess some PS3 owners use it as a Blu Ray player. ^_^

[Alamar]

I'll probably hold out for a while before I take the plunge into the wild Blu yonder. The reasons that I haven't bought HD yet are the primary reasons that I haven't bought into Blu yet .... The ongoing media costs are way out of line with what I want to pay.

I like to own my favorite movies but I'm not about to slap down 25-35$ for a single movie any time soon. Combine this with [IIRC] region codes and in general a less consumer friendly attitude makes my decision to wait an easy one.

I imagine that when the price premium for Hi Def material is only +15% of DVD OR when I can't get the material that I want on DVD any more then I'll make the jump.

[j_garcia]

There are enough sales around that the average movie price is actually a lot lower than that. Some new releases do carry a premium, but after about 2 weeks, the prices tend to drop relatively quickly online. I'm averaging about $15 per disc, with a few costing me around $25 or so. Look at it this way, right now it is a good way to keep your collection free of movies you probably won't watch many times because you really have to want it to buy it :)

[GlocksRock]

where do you buy your movies that cheap?

[j_garcia]

Frys.com ususally (we have stores here, one is 3 blocks from work), as they have regular sales of BD, but Best Buy occasionally has deals that bring them down to around the same price range. The sales are always on select titles obviously, but there are usually at least 2 or 3 that I want, and each time Fry's runs them, they add some of the new releases. There are select titles going for $14.00 right now; I picked up Resident Evil last week for $19, then it went on sale for $14 on Friday, so I went back and got the difference back. Amazon runs frequent sales as well.

[GlocksRock]

I don't usually go to best buy, as I try to avoid them, and there is no Frys in my state unfortunately. I don't normally buy movies, but I think I want to get Ratatouille on blu ray. I don't really want to pay more than $20 shipped for it.

[tn001d]

For those that haven't jumped on the bandwagon yet, will you buy a Bluray player if HD DVD dies off officially? How about you guys that already own HD DVD machines, will you go ahead and buy a Bluray player? Will you wait for Black Friday or will you purchase on onset of breaking news from Toshiba?

There are plenty of movies out on HD-DVD with more coming. There is no reason to get rid of an HD-DVD player.

Assuming paramount goes Blu-ray or even format neutral at the end of the contract it might be 6 mo -12 mo after that before you have Transformers on blu-ray.. thats over 2 years from now!!

Look how long Matrix has been out on HD-DVD and still no date on for a blu-ray release. Its too bad that Fox and Warner were swayed away from going HD-DVD (like they wanted to) by Sony.

http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?homevdeo&1205441382

[j_garcia]

There are ~400 titles on HD DVD and there will be FEWER coming out, not more as time goes on, with Warner only releasing those currently in production over the next few months (and not day and date with the BD). With Warner holding so many key titles (mainly catalog titles, though some more recent also), there really aren't enough big titles in the pipeline for HD DVD to realistically stay alfoat. The Matrix and Batman Begins Warner said they would have them out by the end of the year on BD; I will enjoy my HD DVD versions for now though.

[GlocksRock]

I know batman begins will be awesome in blu ray. The dolby digital track on the regular dvd is awesome, I can't wait to hear it on blu ray.

[patnshan]

Some are serious Sony haters claiming that Sony makes no good products at all.



Sony hating is a results of more than just products. For me it's products somewhat, but mostly their tactics. Charging higher prices for the same stuff (ie: TV's), strongarming competitors (HD DVD), proprietary crap (memory stick), and sneaky practices (rootkits). That's all I can think of for now, I am sure there are more.

Bluetooth only remotes are stupid, why should one have to buy an adapter to use their harmony??? Otherwise PS3 is an option, but standalone players suit more people IMHO. I don't want a game system and especially not one that looks like a game system. That thing would look like crap in my rack. Why can't they make an economic standalone that is capable of everything (except gaming) that the PS3 is???

Bottom line, these players are not reasonably priced, especially for what you get. The ones close to reasonably priced are old and will be outdated soon with the new specs.

I am waiting for final specs and a good price. From what I have seen, that will be a long time coming. I never got a laser disc player either, sound familiar;) It sure does to me. Blu Ray will be another laser disc player if they don't get prices in line or force DVD out of existance (I doubt they can do that, but I wouldn't put anything past them).

Pat

[BMXTRIX]

Sony hating is a results of more than just products. For me it's products somewhat, but mostly their tactics. Charging higher prices for the same stuff (ie: TV's), strongarming competitors (HD DVD), proprietary crap (memory stick), and sneaky practices (rootkits). That's all I can think of for now, I am sure there are more.
See, that's what I don't get. It seems like a double standard - especially by your own usage of the terms - and tends to amount to standard business practices except for a few things.

1. Many companies offer identical products with different pricing including Denon and Yamaha who have custom and consumer product which may have slightly different pricing structures.

2. Strongarming Competitors? Toshiba chose to not support Blu-ray after the BDA was formed. They have gone through very standard business practices to earn support... including signing incentives for studio support.

3. Proprietary Crap... Do X-Box games play on other systems? Does apple software work in Windows? Do my DS games play in anything besides my DS? Almost every major company has 'proprietary crap' - Toshiba, for example, has HD DVD which is easily as proprietary as Memory Stick...

4. Sneaky Practices: Let's be honest - The rootkit was flat out a crap decision by someone. They also had the bad batteries (which they did replace).

But, considering the above, how fair is it to focus on them so singularly? When you consider the 'same' product - what are you talking about? There is a great deal of Sony product used in the professional arena with incredible results. Sony also continues to get rave reviews for its displays and projection products. Yet, it makes some stuff that is undisputedly not very good.

Bluetooth only remotes are stupid, why should one have to buy an adapter to use their harmony??? Otherwise PS3 is an option, but standalone players suit more people IMHO. I don't want a game system and especially not one that looks like a game system. That thing would look like crap in my rack. Why can't they make an economic standalone that is capable of everything (except gaming) that the PS3 is???
There are some personal opinions here don't you think?

For many consumers, they don't have a universal remote, so the Sony PS3 remote is fine with them. They don't necessarily even know that it is Bluetooth, they just know that it works reliably. But, I imagine that including top notch IR relaibility would really piss off the competition (Panny, Samsung, Pioneer, etc.).

I agree that stand alone players are more suitable for most people. But, at current cost for development, Blu-ray has a cost that is a bit higher for comparible product between Blu-ray and HD DVD. While PS3 is subsidized, and (RUMOR) HD DVD is subsidized - or sold at cost - no Blu-ray stand alone player holds this distinction. So, with a PS3 you get what might normally cost $1,200+ for 400 or 500 dollars. With their players, they probably cost 200 or so, then come to consumers at $400 or so. That's a lot less product for the money.

Of course, if you don't want it, just because it would look 'ugly', then that is, once again, your choice, right, and opinion. But, it doesn't mean it doesn't work better than any other stand alone player, from any manufacturer, on the market.


Bottom line, these players are not reasonably priced, especially for what you get. The ones close to reasonably priced are old and will be outdated soon with the new specs.
Depends on what you mean by reasonably priced. Toshiba, operating as a monopoly, has been using subsidization practices to give consumers a 'reasonable' price, yet this doesn't work when you want free market competition.

As for 'old and outdated' - this is so true! Unless of course people don't care that much about PIP or web interactivity. In which case, the current players will last them forever.

Or, they have a PS3 which will not be outdated by 1.1 or 2.0 specifications.

I am waiting for final specs and a good price. From what I have seen, that will be a long time coming. I never got a laser disc player either, sound familiar;) It sure does to me. Blu Ray will be another laser disc player if they don't get prices in line or force DVD out of existance (I doubt they can do that, but I wouldn't put anything past them).
I am waiting to get a stand alone player for the same reasons you are, but I'm not going to avoid enjoying HD movies because there is no stand alone player, when there clearly is a very good alternative. No, it's not for everyone, but it doesn't change the fact that it is excellent for most.

It's also great that there are options available to make it compatible with universal remotes.

The choice is to invest in a format that will not deliver 70% of the current movie releases come May.

If HD DVD had this level of support, then it would be a no brainer, but I think we would all see substantially higher pricing if this were the case.

[patnshan]

We agree on more than we disagree. Maybe I am too hard on Sony, but then again maybe not:D

What I like(d) about HD DVD is the final standard ready on all the players. I guess the moving Blu Ray standards could be akin to the moving HDMI standards, which also pisses me off.

None the less, I am hoping that something meeting my criteria will be avaiable by summer. Until then, I will rent HD DVD as long as I can and buy what I want to keep around. It's not like my player and my movies will suddenly vaporize;)

The great thing about all of this is that DVD's will be around at least 10+ years, and all these players are great at playing those regardless of what happens with HDM! PPV HD actually looks pretty damn good, so I always have that:)

Pat

[Clint DeBoer]

We'll likely buy a few of the $299 BD-Live-enabled players that go on special discount this Christmas season... oh, was that a prediction? ;)

[stratman]

We'll likely buy a few of the $299 BD-Live-enabled players that go on special discount this Christmas season... oh, was that a prediction? ;)

$299.00 you're being kind sir!:D

[Duffinator]

For those that haven't jumped on the bandwagon yet, will you buy a Bluray player if HD DVD dies off officially? How about you guys that already own HD DVD machines, will you go ahead and buy a Bluray player? Will you wait for Black Friday or will you purchase on onset of breaking news from Toshiba?I own a HD player and was planning on buying a BD player before the unofficial end of the war. I'm still planning on buying a BD player but now I'm holding off a few more months to see if any of the new players will decode and output the new audio formats via analog connections. My plan all along was not to buy any HD discs, which I didn't, and to use the player in my bedroom as an upconverting player if HD lost. Which it did and I will. :D

[Clint DeBoer]

I don't want to give them too much credit, but if it were MY show, I'd incentivize one or two of the final studios to bail before the end of the year, drop the prices on players and solidify Blu-ray as the future niche HD format... that is, until downloads take over.

[patnshan]

I don't want to give them too much credit, but if it were MY show, I'd incentivize one or two of the final studios to bail before the end of the year, drop the prices on players and solidify Blu-ray as the future niche HD format... that is, until downloads take over.

Me too. That would give them a chance at their goal, getting the players in everyone's home. At the current prices, no way in hell.

Pat

[stratman]

Here's something to mull over, if it took two competing formats combined to penetrate barely 10% in shares, what will that equation be if one falters? This is what the OP was getting at. Will the old HD DVD faithfull pull ranks come over to the blue side and try and keep penetration at roughly 10% or just hold on to their defunct format untill the NBT (Next Big Thing) arrives, some claim that'll be downloads. I'm not 100% sold on that yet, physical media appeals to a large number of people, it's like cash, it feels good in the palms of your hands. So that being the case, the end of HD DVD might bring an early retirement to Bluray if numbers don't improve and consumers don't bite, then it'll be a real niche player just like LD, just something to think about. Remember the economy and this past Christmas sales numbers!

[Rob Babcock]

I'm no die-hard fanboy. There was a time when I think HD-DVD had the better mousetrap but they failed to capitalize on it. If, as it's starting to appear, the format war is almost over I'll definately start buying BluRay.

Just as soon as they release a $250 player.

[Rob Babcock]

I don't want to give them too much credit, but if it were MY show, I'd incentivize one or two of the final studios to bail before the end of the year, drop the prices on players and solidify Blu-ray as the future niche HD format... that is, until downloads take over.


If/when things go to all-downloads, I just might take the opportunity to retire from the hobby. I can't say for sure, but currently I have no interest in renting-via-download. If that becomes the model, and unless a consumer-friendly DRM scheme emerges, I'll just enjoy the thousand or so movies I'll already have by then and catch the occasional new one at the multiplex. That would be a good excuse to stop chasing HT and get solidly back to a focus on music.

BTW, if music went to all downloads...well, I already have enough music to listen to for a couple lifetimes.

[gus6464]

Screw downloads! I like shiny plastic discs in cases as they don't crash and corrupt all your data.

[mike c]

downloads ain't gonna happen in the next 5 years. maybe even 10.

you forget the rest of the world have dial ups.

[BMXTRIX]

We'll likely buy a few of the $299 BD-Live-enabled players that go on special discount this Christmas season... oh, was that a prediction? ;)
I don't think this is kind at all. BD 1.1 players are out now at $399 MSRP and will be more readily available. It is very likely that by this holiday season $299 we will see BD 2.0 players and that the 299 price point isn't even going to be a special.

Actually, if you look at the drop in price of players over the last 18 months since launch we see about a 50% price drop... or more. While some of this drop may be due to pressure from HD DVD, it also comes from the necessity of competing with other Blu-ray manufacturers and the DVD industry. It is not unrealistic to expect to see more fully featured players come to market while prices fall another 25% by the end of 2007 for normal pricing.

It just seems so silly to me that people are stuck with the here and now picture of technology while so eagerly lapping up other technologies which have so much further to go.

Downloads are a joke. Period. They don't even have the possibility of reaching 75% of America that doesn't have broadband right now - yet people are waxing poetic about how great it will be when you can't own your own HD media.

I guess you were a huge supporter of DivX over DVD correct?

Is that harsh? I don't see how it could be considering that is EXACTLY what Apple is pushing. A heavily DRM protected download, non-ownership, non-sharable format with severe limitations on usage.

When you have something - ANYTHING - worthwhile to show me in the HDDL category, please, let me know.

[BMXTRIX]

Here's something to mull over, if it took two competing formats combined to penetrate barely 10% in shares, what will that equation be if one falters? This is what the OP was getting at. Will the old HD DVD faithfull pull ranks come over to the blue side and try and keep penetration at roughly 10% or just hold on to their defunct format untill the NBT (Next Big Thing) arrives, some claim that'll be downloads. I'm not 100% sold on that yet, physical media appeals to a large number of people, it's like cash, it feels good in the palms of your hands. So that being the case, the end of HD DVD might bring an early retirement to Bluray if numbers don't improve and consumers don't bite, then it'll be a real niche player just like LD, just something to think about. Remember the economy and this past Christmas sales numbers!
I think it's actually far less than 10% at this time. But, the numbers for Blu-ray have outpaced the numbers compared to DVD at this point in the release of DVD. It isn't a sprint, but a marathon when you are talking about steering billions of dollars of resources and getting them out to consumers. So, while it could end up a niche, the end of the format war means that the general consumer has a much more directed and focussed buying strategy. It isn't "Do I buy Blu-ray or HD DVD?" - It becomes "Do I buy the Panasonic, or the Pioneer Blu-ray player?" When you remove doubt from consumers, consumer confidence grows and buying trends increase. This means that owners of existing players will also buy more discs because they are less concerned about their investment becoming worthless.

Yet, the future of Blu-ray most definitely is not assured. It isn't, as some would like to claim, destined to be a niche format - not when the buzzword in EVERY piece of CE advertising is HD. People want HD, and as player prices fall over the next few years (yes, years) more and more people will continue to buy in to HD, and they will gain consumer awareness of HD optical discs in the Blu flavor.

I'm not sure of how many formats have come to market which have ended up so prominently displayed on showroom floors, with so much CE backing, with so much studio backing - then went on to become a 'niche' product.

I sure didn't see this level of marketing from DVD-A or SACD. How much market was there for laser disc? A good technology, but not widely embraced - which is the model that Blu-ray should not be following.

10% would be phenomenal market share of a multi-billion dollar industry to take ownership of in 18 months. It isn't that much, but it would be extremely encouraging to investors (CE corporations and studios) that they are going down a very good road.

Warner Brothers claimed that Blu-ray was worth 63 million dollars MORE to them last year than HD DVD. Not sure if the 'more' is correct, or if the number represents net profit or gross sales. But, considering that Blu-ray had barely begun to walk (6 months) a year ago, it seems like a pretty amazing number to me.

[patnshan]

A good start to improve adoption of HDM would be to sue the crap off of every company who uses "HD" to describe their upconverting DVD players.
J6P already thinks they have an HD player:rolleyes:

I realize that nobody "owns" the right to use HD, but it is absolutely terrible that they continue to steer unsuspecting consumers wrong.

Pat

[aberkowitz]

A good start to improve adoption of HDM would be to sue the crap off of every company who uses "HD" to describe their upconverting DVD players.
J6P already thinks they have an HD player:rolleyes:

I realize that nobody "owns" the right to use HD, but it is absolutely terrible that they continue to steer unsuspecting consumers wrong.

Pat

But these are the same people that think they have high-definition tv b/c they went out and bought a Plasma/LCD/DLP but they still have their old cable box with a coaxial cable going into the back of the tv. :confused:

[j_garcia]

Digital high def comes across just fine through that coaxial cable, but I get your point.

[Joe Schmoe]

I would have to buy a substantially larger TV before either format would interest me.

[frostbyte]

What gets me is all the people that spend extra to buy a high def 1080P TV and have no plans to get any way to actually view that content. A 720P will be just as good for Satellite Standard def, Cable, DVD's etc. I personally can't tell the difference in a 1080i, 1080P, 720P TV if viewing a standard def signal. But they just HAVE to have the best TV. If they are saving up to get a Blu Ray, or Comcast HD or any HD broadcasting, then that's different, but so many just think having the TV is all they ahve to do.

[patnshan]

Digital high def comes across just fine through that coaxial cable, but I get your point.

Yep, but it's gotta be direct from the wall, not through an SD cable box.

Pat

[j_garcia]

I would have to buy a substantially larger TV before either format would interest me.

Maybe, but I have a 34" 16:9 set and the difference is already quite noticeable.

[Geno]

I'm finally going to pull the trigger on BD, but I'm waiting for a player that'll decode the new audio formats internally. I have a 1 year old Denon 4306 which doesn't decode Dolby TrueHD or DTS HDMaster. I understand the upcoming Panny 50 will be what I'm looking for.

[Duffinator]

I understand the upcoming Panny 50 will be what I'm looking for.Yes this looks promising. Now the wait begins. Is spring here yet?

[davidtwotrees]

Yawns. Having been burned in the Sacd DVDA thingy, this whole war doesn't interest me. When you can tell me that all movies will be released in a certain format then I will certainly buy a player. And a good one at that-no WallyWorld electronics for me. Until then, this all just hype and another case of someone trying to put their hand in my wallet.

[Peppy]

Yes, I be dissapointed but if Blu win and become the only one left standing; I will have to buy one (I already have a HD) I don't have nothing agains Sony, but I just found that in the past year, the HD player and disc have been a much better product.

But before I buy a Blu, I will wait a longggggggg time. Let the rest of the world paid the big box for there player. So in around 2 years the price and all there problem should have been fix.

Now I know how the fans of the Beta format feel when the VHS won the "tape" war.... even if the Sony product was better.

[Alamar]

If HD-DVD folded tomorrow how long do you think it would take companies to abandon the DVD format entirely as a way of trying to "force" us to buying most of our content at the price premium that HiDef demands???

EDIT: Of course if Blu folded tomorrow the HD camp would likely do the same thing ....

[j_garcia]

EDIT: Of course if Blu folded tomorrow the HD camp would likely do the same thing ....

That is correct, though it would happen over a period of time just as it did with VHS. The difference being, manufacturers already have the infrastructure to handle discs compared to switching over from tape to disc, so the potential is there for it to happnen quickly. No matter which one won, the result was going to be a drop in SD DVD production in favor of the new format.

[frostbyte]

Even if the format war does end, it will be just like any format war of the past. Slowly transitioning over just like HDTV has been for nearly 10 years. If HD-DVD rolled over and dies tomorrow, then Blu Ray was the winner, but no one was buying equipment, it would never replace DVD. Consumers will always have a say in it. We don't spend, they won't continue to make.

There's a lot of talk about the "streaming" or downloadable options taking over before the format war ever ends, but I personally don't think that will ever fully replace a hard copy in the near to distant future, although I could be wrong. If you can stream a rental that somehow has protections built in for only 24 hours to work or a one time use where the consumer can't digitally capture it then fine, but how is someone going to own a digital copy that then can't be copied or you never have a hard copy? I personally like buying the original and if anyone but myself will ever touch it, I want a back up. I would never buy a downloadable copy of a movie if I couldn't make copies. The hard drive fries, the equipment dies, etc and you just lost your movie collection. If they can take care of all these concerns for people then they may compete, but I don't think it will happen anytime soon.

[Alamar]

With the ways that today's companies view DRM good luck having full bit-rate, fully featured digital downloads that aren't totally handcuffed by DRM.

Maybe in 10 years if bandwidth is several orders of magnitude higher than today and long-term, reliable storage space is nigh-unlimited and cheap then I would be ready for prime time but not before.

[Polygon]

I will go with whatever format wins.

[mfabien]

I will go with whatever format wins.

... and let the world go by!

I'm part of the war by being neutral... and enjoying every moment!

Don't you feel you are missing something?

[frostbyte]

Don't you feel you are missing something?

If I bought both formats, I'd definitely feel I was missing something....like extra money in my wallet. ^_^ Assuming there is a single format that wins, which I believe will happen.

[mfabien]

If I bought both formats, I'd definitely feel I was missing something....like extra money in my wallet. ^_^ Assuming there is a single format that wins, which I believe will happen.

So you feel that people who have purchased an HD DVD or a BD player or both would all prefer having back the money in their pocket? Are you prepared to make a poll on that point?

Does the same reasoning apply to those who have replaced their CRT NTSC TV with a widescreen HDTV? Or to those who have elected to buy an audio system to better enjoy music and movies? And I can go on... unless to best situation in which a human being can be is to have lots of money in his pockets... and die that way.

[frostbyte]

I said nothing about anyone but myself. I'm sure there are those that will not regret buying 10 to 20 or more HD DVD movies and a player or 2. Just like there are those that are still glad they bought their DIVX player when DVD was having it's format war. ^_^ Oops did I just say I think HD DVD is a loosing cause?

[mfabien]

I bought very few movies, I rent them (both HD DVD and BD).

But I buy concerts, live shows. Those seem to be mostly in BD format. Never tired of playing back good music... which is much better in good Video and good sound.

In fact I enjoy a concert much better at home with my system vs a big hall, like to Bell Center in Montreal because sound engineers put sound volume much too high... at least that spoils things for me.

The one exception was Barbra Streisand last year... but we know she's a control freak and would know that you can't trust a sound engineer to decide on sound volume.

[j_garcia]

If I bought both formats, I'd definitely feel I was missing something....like extra money in my wallet. ^_^ Assuming there is a single format that wins, which I believe will happen.


I bought both and I don't feel like I am missing anything. I didn't pay an arm and a leg for my player though and I only bought a few movies; a number of them used for good prices. I figured the war would drag out, so I might as well enjoy a few of the exclusives and get another good upscaling player at the same time.

[Shadow_Ferret]

For those that haven't jumped on the bandwagon yet, will you buy a Bluray player if HD DVD dies off officially? How about you guys that already own HD DVD machines, will you go ahead and buy a Bluray player? Will you wait for Black Friday or will you purchase on onset of breaking news from Toshiba?I thought HD DVD HAD died off already. I keep reading its obituaries.

As far as buying a Bluray Player, I'll be waiting until they get down in price to the sub-$300 range. First, we have to get a HDTV. We haven't even made that commitment. I keep waiting for those prices to become "reasonable."

But really, I'm not looking forward to having to replace my DVD collection with Bluray. Those discs are expensive! Nearly 3 or 4 times the price of budget DVDs.

Heck, I still have VHS tapes in my library that still haven't made the conversion to DVD!

What's a Black Friday?

[Alex2507]

Big sale day after Thanksgiving. I think it's termed Black because it is easily the ugliest day of the year to shop.

[mtrycrafts]

What's a Black Friday?

It may be the day that the retail store start making their profits for the year:D

HD is not dead yet.;)

[allargon]

Fortunately, HD DVD isn't dead, yet. (Even if you love Blu-Ray, you have to love the software price wars.) Paramount and Universal are still sticking with HD DVD. Moreover, most independents launch on HD DVD first due to the lower costs.

Opus Arte has said they will start releasing on Blu-Ray. However, this is Audioholics. If you want opera, ballet or high art on high def, look to HD DVD.

Seriously, if I could justify purchasing a $400+ Blu-Ray player, I could definitely justify a $100 HD DVD player. That's all I'm saying.

[krzywica]

For those that haven't jumped on the bandwagon yet, will you buy a Bluray player if HD DVD dies off officially? How about you guys that already own HD DVD machines, will you go ahead and buy a Bluray player? Will you wait for Black Friday or will you purchase on onset of breaking news from Toshiba?

Luckily for me I have an HTPC with one of these bad boys in it. Troubles are gone. :)

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16827136133

[allargon]

Luckily for me I have an HTPC with one of these bad boys in it. Troubles are gone. :)

http://www.newegg.com/product/product.asp?item=N82E16827136133

How do you play high res audio?

[krzywica]

How do you play high res audio?


Through the digital optical out built into the motherboard. Its an Asus SLI Delux. Or do you mean for software? There are a few different options in that regard. I tend to use VLC a lot, or you can use power DVD, or intervideo, which both suck IMO. And there are also a host of other players that can do 5.1 or greater audio. I haven't really played around with it too much because I currently have an old receiver and am in the process of upgrading, so right now video quality matters most.

[allargon]

Through the digital optical out built into the motherboard. Its an Asus SLI Delux. Or do you mean for software? There are a few different options in that regard. I tend to use VLC a lot, or you can use power DVD, or intervideo, which both suck IMO. And there are also a host of other players that can do 5.1 or greater audio. I haven't really played around with it too much because I currently have an old receiver and am in the process of upgrading, so right now video quality matters most.

Toslink won't sent high res (LPCM) multichannel 5.1. It's not part of the spec. That's why I asked. I'm hoping they will get things resolved with the audio.

VLC supports Blu-Ray/HD DVD now (or I guess the codecs after they are err... liberated from the discs)?

[krzywica]

Toslink won't sent high res (LPCM) multichannel 5.1. It's not part of the spec. That's why I asked. I'm hoping they will get things resolved with the audio.

VLC supports Blu-Ray/HD DVD now (or I guess the codecs after they are err... liberated from the discs)?

lol. Yes viva la revolution!

Thanks for pointing that out, I wasn't aware that you couldn't pass HD audio through Toslink with HD DVD. But I don't play them from the disk anyway, so I hadn't noticed. What about digital composite out?

[funked up]

Wether hd-dvd dies or not, I'm buying a PS3. Mostly I'll be using it for movies, but why not get a great gaming system also for the same price as a stand-alone player. From what i've been reading it seems like the PS3 is one of the best blu-ray players out there anyways.

[itschris]

Are you guys saying that the current crop of stand alone blue ray components from Denon, Samsung, or Pioneer Elite (which I'm just about to buy) is already a dinosaur because the new spec is on the way. Obviously you can upgrade your PS3, but can you upgrade the firmware on standalone players?

[j_garcia]

Yes, you can update the firmware on pretty much any player, but not all players will be able to be updated to make use of all of the newest features - like you can't add Profile 2.0 to a player that doesn't have some type of network capability.

[mfabien]

Yes, you can update the firmware on pretty much any player, but not all players will be able to be updated to make use of all of the newest features - like you can't add Profile 2.0 to a player that doesn't have some type of network capability.

...or HDD volume to provide more memory.

[itschris]

So I guess it would be stupid to spend $800 on the Elite blue ray. But at the same time, I'm just wondering if I wait, there will always be something new to miss just on the horizon.

I remember when the higher end progressive DVD players came out like the DV09 and it was basically HT nirvana. Anything today, surpasses what was the best you could get from a few years ago... so I'm wondering if it really even matters.

[Nomo]

So I guess it would be stupid to spend $800 on the Elite blue ray. But at the same time, I'm just wondering if I wait, there will always be something new to miss just on the horizon.

I remember when the higher end progressive DVD players came out like the DV09 and it was basically HT nirvana. Anything today, surpasses what was the best you could get from a few years ago... so I'm wondering if it really even matters.

There will always be something coming out...... That's the nature of the AV world.
But IMO, this is a bad time to invest in a high end BD player.

[smurphy522]

I guess I was already betting on the demise of HD-DVD.


A PS3 at this point to me seemed well..........a "no brainer". A network connection (WIRELESS to boot!), good firmware support, for me-better movie selection and a game machine too! The only thing that would have been perfect is having IR remote support (built-in).
I don't regret it one bit. especially with the ever growing lack of HD-DVD support. No matter how much a player costs; without studio support the war is basically over.



Just My 2¢

[tn001d]

Last night.. i was excited to to watch Fantastic Four 2. I had just watched the first one on blu-ray the week before, and just got the second one on blu-ray from netflix.

I first turned on the player, because i know its faster to boot up the disc after the player gets to its main screen. So after i came back from the bathroom :p the player was warmed up and ready at the main screen. I popped in the disc. So now i figured i got about 45 sec before i get to the menu screen.

My player said loading... loading...loading. I was like "ok", i have seen this before, this is normal. But this was the player saying loading. Next the i got a weird bar on the bottom. Like the one you see at the bottom of internet pages when they are loading up. It kept going from left to right, finishing the bar, and restarting over again. Now i was like whats going on :confused:. Then a weird circular thing showed up that kept rotating like a radar.. and it said "loading...loading...loading".

Finally after god knows how long i get to the main menu screen for the movie. I was expecting something big for all this loading.. but it was a boring screen with no video or anything like Bourne or Transformers.

I have selected all netflix movies to prefer HD-DVD format over Blu-ray if available.

HD-DVD is alive and well in my house!! I think i will have a Matrix Marathon, followed by a Bourne Marathon.. maybe top that with a Mission Impossible Marathon.. hell cant leave harry out of it. Finish it off with a Harry Potter Marathon

[j_garcia]

HD DVD = put a fork in it, call it done. Seriously, all they are doing is clearing out inventory of items that are already in production - players and movies, so that they at least make some money off of that before shutting it down.

[stratman]

HD DVD = put a fork in it, call it done. Seriously, all they are doing is clearing out inventory of items that are already in production - players and movies, so that they at least make some money off of that before shutting it down.

Well if the story in Variety pans out, I guess J is right, put a fork in it, it's done. Hopefully we'll be able to move one. We have a gazillion threads on BD vs HD DVD and frankly it's getting boring. Now the question still remains, will BD survive, too?

[dobyblue]

Finally after god knows how long i get to the main menu screen for the movie. I was expecting something big for all this loading.. but it was a boring screen with no video or anything like Bourne or Transformers.

It's the BD+ system that caused it to take so long. You may experience this on a few titles from Fox depending on the player.

The BD-P1400 takes about 40 seconds to load up FF4SS.
The Panny DMP-BD30 takes about 17-20 seconds.
The PS3 takes about 10 seconds.

I believe the Sharp is quite quick with BD+ as well, around the same time as the Panny.

Samsung appear to be the worst for loading times with BD+. Hopefully the BD-P1500 will be much faster.

[stratman]

Well now that Wal Mart is going BD, you HD DVD guys will be able to pick them up for nothing as Wal Mart starts prepping for BD inventory only. Believe me, BB is keeping an eye on Wal Mart, as they can do damage to BB by slashing software prices. I'm just waiting for CC to jump on the bandwagon.

[frostbyte]

I've already seen this on small scale. I wanted to buy the Harry Potter movies on Blu Ray and saw them at Wally World for $18.97 and then went online to Circuit City and they had them for $29.99 I believe. I called them up to see if they would price match and they said no for some reason so I bought the first 4 at Wal-Mart. Then I checked back 2 weeks later and they were suddenly $19.99 at Circuit City. Guess too many people let them know it was cheaper elsewhere. Still not quite as cheap, but close enough for Wal-Mart haters. Once more people buy into HDTV instead of waiting for the war to officially end I believe you will see $20 and under become the new norm instead of $30. I will buy for under $20 if it's a movie I would like to own, but $30 is just above what it's worth to me personally. The magic number for the masses will likely be $20 and you will see sales skyrocket.

[stratman]

I've already seen this on small scale. I wanted to buy the Harry Potter movies on Blu Ray and saw them at Wally World for $18.97 and then went online to Circuit City and they had them for $29.99 I believe. I called them up to see if they would price match and they said no for some reason so I bought the first 4 at Wal-Mart. Then I checked back 2 weeks later and they were suddenly $19.99 at Circuit City. Guess too many people let them know it was cheaper elsewhere. Still not quite as cheap, but close enough for Wal-Mart haters. Once more people buy into HDTV instead of waiting for the war to officially end I believe you will see $20 and under become the new norm instead of $30. I will buy for under $20 if it's a movie I would like to own, but $30 is just above what it's worth to me personally. The magic number for the masses will likely be $20 and you will see sales skyrocket.

You know I feel as if I'm sitting in the middle of a commercial. Fan boys on both sides of the aisle throwing stones at each other, I waited and waited, even when HD DVD players were selling for $100 bucks my inner voice said: don't do it, you'll be sorry. Well I know the argument for a cheap player (that doesn't support 1080p), "it's only $100, it won't kill the bank, blah, blah, blah,......well I'll get the new TOSHIBA BLU-RAY player when it comes out for $100 that supports all 2.0, 3.0 and 4.0 profiles and 10 free BDs that Toshiba will giving away in order to entice buyers, since no one now wants to buy Blu-ray because SD DVD is kicking it's butt.

[frostbyte]

I was tempted to go for the $100 HD DVD since it was so cheap, but I'm not a fan of HD DVD and felt it would end up loosing. Then when Warner announced Blu Ray exclusive, I knew it would be the end so I finally bought a PS3. My other reason for not liking HD DVD was the fact that Universal was in their camp. I very much dislike them and it may not even be their fault. I have a cheap Sanyo DVD player with Parent Guardian that allows the close captioning to mute out swear words which is very handy with having 4 little boys. Universal DVD's I believe are the only ones that it can't bleep out for some reason. Thus my hatred for Universal which bleeds into HD DVD.

[stratman]

Blu-ray prices will tumble just like everything else.

[allargon]

It's the BD+ system that caused it to take so long. You may experience this on a few titles from Fox depending on the player.

The BD-P1400 takes about 40 seconds to load up FF4SS.
The Panny DMP-BD30 takes about 17-20 seconds.
The PS3 takes about 10 seconds.

I believe the Sharp is quite quick with BD+ as well, around the same time as the Panny.

Samsung appear to be the worst for loading times with BD+. Hopefully the BD-P1500 will be much faster.

What about that overpriced, non TrueHD, not bitstreaming slow brick that is the #1 or #2 standalone--the Sony BDP-S300? How long does it take to load with BD+?

[dobyblue]

What about that overpriced, non TrueHD, not bitstreaming slow brick that is the #1 or #2 standalone--the Sony BDP-S300? How long does it take to load with BD+?

I have no idea - outside the PlayStation umbrella I don't buy Sony products.
I'm all about the P's.
Pioneer, Panasonic, Paradigm.

I don't think too many people are impressed with it.

I believe you'll note when the review went up here recommending it over the other as an entry level player, I chimed in and disagreed saying that I thought the Samsung BD-P1400 was a much better entry level player given that it had TrueHD decoding for analog and bitstreaming of TrueHD and dts-ma.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

If they drop the price of the Onky HD DVD player to $100, I'll buy one.:D

http://media.onecall.com/Image_Products/Onkyo/DV-HD805_US_Leaflet_Temp.pdf

[DTS]

I started shopping online a few minutes after my Netflix email. Probably gonna get a PS3.

[frostbyte]

I've posted it before, but just in case you didn't see it, I got mine from sonystyle .com and approved for their credit card which gave me $100 off the system. It made me jump at it right then without a 2nd thought.

[j_garcia]

If they drop the price of the Onky HD DVD player to $100, I'll buy one.:D

http://media.onecall.com/Image_Products/Onkyo/DV-HD805_US_Leaflet_Temp.pdf

Why? It is nothing more than a rebadged Toshiba....;)