The giant is here: Velodyne DLS 5000R 15" Monster

[Bluesmoke]

Future Shop just delivered this sucker to my door. Bought it for $460can online during the Boxing day sale. I've never seen the sub in person and the box is a frikken giant. I'm afraid of hauling it upstairs to the bedroom theater by myself.

Impressions coming later. It dwarfs my Energy S10.3 in size.

[furrycute]

By all means post your impression here. I am really eager to hear how this sub performs, especially with music.

Is the sub sealed or ported?

[billy p]

Future Shop just delivered this sucker to my door. Bought it for $460can online during the Boxing day sale. I've never seen the sub in person and the box is a frikken giant. I'm afraid of hauling it upstairs to the bedroom theater by myself.

Impressions coming later. It dwarfs my Energy S10.3 in size.

Hey Bluesmoke even at its regular price I though it was a decent sub, just preferred others. At that price point IMO its a an outstanding sub, lets face it outside of DIY you can't touch it for 460.00 in Canada. I would like to hear your thoughts as well? I know the s10.3 is very musical sub, but not so good for H/T and the velo should be better in every aspect.

Regards, Billy P:)

[Bluesmoke]

Hey Bluesmoke even at its regular price I though it was a decent sub, just preferred others. At that price point IMO its a an outstanding sub, lets face it outside of DIY you can't touch it for 460.00 in Canada. I would like to hear your thoughts as well? I know the s10.3 is very musical sub, but not so good for H/T and the velo should be better in every aspect.

Regards, Billy P:)

Yea, the S10.3 is an amazing sub for music. For HT it's not so hot. It just doesn't have the output and High SPL you'd want. Especially with 12 feet ceilings like mine.

I'm waiting for my GF to get home so we can try to bring it upstairs.

[j_garcia]

You haven't seen a SVS PB-13 Ultra then :D or my sub :eek:

Congrats on the new sub. Let us know what you think.

[Bluesmoke]

You haven't seen a SVS PB-13 Ultra then :D or my sub :eek:

Congrats on the new sub. Let us know what you think.

The PB13 is a killer. $460can it is not. :D

[j_garcia]

I don't mean for the price, just the size :D

[croseiv]

Pics man pics!





:)

[Bluesmoke]

Pics are coming. I have to say I'm sort of mixed about this sub. I just had it setup. It certainly pounds MUCH harder than my Energy S10.3 and I can feel the floor shake. So far, I've only listened to music. And I feel for my tiny room (14x11x11), it's massive overkill. The S10.3 seemed more accurate with music because I guess the driver could move faster. Even at mid volume my receiver set the bass dlb at -8.5. I brought it up a notch to -5.5. It feels bigger and the bass seems more expansive and with less color than the Energy which had an emphasis on the upper mid bass region (does that make any sense? That's just the Guitar player in me trying to use guitar amp bass analogy). I'm going to try it with Blackhawk Down Blu-ray tonight. I think the pillars downstairs will crumble.

The funny thing is, my Energy RC30s seemed very small before, and now seems miniscule when next to the 15" Velo. :eek:

[mike c]

did you put the velo in the same location as the energy sub? 10's are not faster than 15's ... it could be a result of the subwoofer location and room acoustics.

[Gimpy Ric]

Pics please!

[annunaki]

Mike C is correct here.

10's are not "faster" than 15's. See HERE (http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35455) The difference you are hearing is a result of the 15" having much more output than the 10" especially at frequencies from 50hz-80hz. This will make the sub sound "boomy or sloppy". Properly integrate the sub through calibration and room placement and you should be very happy. :)

[Davidt1]

I think smaller drivers are faster than big drivers. Thinks of speaker drivers as marathon runners. World-class runners are small and slender, not big or fat. What about the distance drivers have to travel (the movement of the cone)? Smaller drivers don't have to travel as far, thus they complete the job faster.

[annunaki]

Did you read the link I provided in the link to the "Subwoofer Myths" thread? That issue is addressed. As long as the woofer has the motor capable of pushing and pullling the mass to the distances the driver is designed for, there is no issue.

Here (http://www.audiopulse.com/know-how/s...ut-subwoofers/) it is if you missed it :)

The trade off for your way of describing it is the output is significantly lowered and thus requires more drivers to achieve a set volume.

Why is it that the JL Audio W7 series woofers are some of the most accurate drivers on the market in terms of motor and suspension linearity, yet boast some of the highest xmax numbers available for their size categories, specifically the smaller drivers????

Your analogy is flawed to a fairly large degree.

That is like saying a small car will be faster than a bigger car because it should be able to accelrate and deccelerate quicker since it is smaller and thinner. That makes no sense. There are too many variables involved that play into the equation with woofers or cars than simply the size of the cones or the cars.

If the bigger car has an appropriate amount of horsepower/torque and braking system it will/can be every bit as quick as the smaller car or faster.

If the bigger car is made of carbon fiber composite, (weighing 400 lbs. less than the small car), a ceramic/carbon brake setup, and 300 more horsepower it can easily match or beat the small car.

This is not the best analogy but more fitting. :)

[Sheep]

I think smaller drivers are faster than big drivers. Thinks of speaker drivers as marathon runners. World-class runners are small and slender, not big or fat. What about the distance drivers have to travel (the movement of the cone)? Smaller drivers don't have to travel as far, thus they complete the job faster.

You think wrong. When the driver slows down, it plays a different note altogether. The distance is just volume. It's the speed that determines the frequency. And small drivers need to move farther to reproduce the same SPL as a larger driver. Moving air = SPL.

SheepStar

[annunaki]

I think smaller drivers are faster than big drivers. Thinks of speaker drivers as marathon runners. World-class runners are small and slender, not big or fat. What about the distance drivers have to travel (the movement of the cone)? Smaller drivers don't have to travel as far, thus they complete the job faster.

Other ways to look at it:

If the smaller cones completed the job faster than the input signal they would not be producing the appropriate frequency. If a driver is sent a 60hz input signal and it moves faster as your logic suggests it might actually produce a 65hz signal. A larger woofer moving the same distance as a smaller driver actually moves the same speed as the smaller driver yet has more output since it has a larger surface area. A smaller woofer actually has to worker harder to keep up with a larger driver in terms of output as it must move farther to equal the amount of output since it is at a disadvantage in terms of surface area.

Here is way to think about it correctly.

We have two woofers, woofer A and woofer B. "A" has a 10" cone with 12mm of linear xmax and "B" has a 12" cone with 18mm of linear xmax.

Say Cone A has an xmax of 6mm at 50hz and 95db. Cone B is a 12" and has an xmax of 3mm at 50hz and 95db. Cone "B" does not need to move as far because it has a sizeable advantage in surface area. Cone B also requires a lower amount of input from the amplier to do this amount of work since it has a higher amount of surface area.

Since it is at a surface area disadvantage, a smaller woofer indeed must move the cone out faster and pull it back faster since it is moving farther to reproduce a said said frequency at a given output properly. In your terms of thinking the smaller woofer would actually sound "slower" because it has to cover more distance. As long as both woofers move back and forth 60 times a second they will reproduce the same frequency.


This is most likely where this myth is derrived.

[mike c]

I think smaller drivers are faster than big drivers. Thinks of speaker drivers as marathon runners. World-class runners are small and slender, not big or fat. What about the distance drivers have to travel (the movement of the cone)? Smaller drivers don't have to travel as far, thus they complete the job faster.

how about this example I read on AVS:

you're on a sinking boat. you got two buckets, a 10" and 15" one. which one will get the water out FASTER?

[billy p]

how about this example I read on AVS:

you're on a sinking boat. you got two buckets, a 10" and 15" one. which one will get the water out FASTER?

Mike, if the boat is sinking I think your screwed either way!:p LOL

[furrycute]

So, a smaller driver will have to travel a larger distance in order to achieve the same SPL as the larger driver. This makes very good sense.

However, this requires the larger driver has a motor of sufficient quality and power to move the larger driver without creating too much distortion. And such a large motor is difficult and expensive to produce.


As to the car analogy. How many cars do you see made entirely out of composite materials. If two cars are made of the same materials, pound for pound, the engine in the smaller car has to accelerate significantly less mass than that engine in the bigger. Thus that bigger car needs to have a much more powerful, and refined engine, in order to achieve the same acceleration, and the same quality of acceleration, as the smaller car.


Large motors of such refinement are difficult to design and expensive to produce.

[furrycute]

Mike, if the boat is sinking I think your screwed either way!:p LOL

I will use that 15 incher as a tub to hold me until the coast guard arrives...

[mike c]

Mike, if the boat is sinking I think your screwed either way!:p LOL

I will use that 15 incher as a tub to hold me until the coast guard arrives...

exactly!

you live a little while longer :D or you get tired before you die. :rolleyes:

[Sheep]

However, this requires the larger driver has a motor of sufficient quality and power to move the larger driver without creating too much distortion. And such a large motor is difficult and expensive to produce.

You know this first hand? How do you make a quality motor and how much does it cost? The extra stress produced from the larger cone can't be that much considering most TC sounds woofers use the same motor structure for range of subwoofer sizes. You have been lulled into thinking it costs more, when it really doesn't.

As to the car analogy. How many cars do you see made entirely out of composite materials. If two cars are made of the same materials, pound for pound, the engine in the smaller car has to accelerate significantly less mass than that engine in the bigger. Thus that bigger car needs to have a much more powerful, and refined engine, in order to achieve the same acceleration, and the same quality of acceleration, as the smaller car.Large motors of such refinement are difficult to design and expensive to produce.

So a small car motor doesn't need to be built well because it only hauls limited weight? Look at an older Toyota or Honda 4 cylinder motor. I have seen adds for a Civic for sale with almost 1 million miles, and it never had the motor or transmission replaced. But wait, these are small light cars... they should have less refined motors. They need a bit more power to compensate for the weight, but in the end, unless the weight difference is double or more, it's not going to make a quantifiable difference. Sure, its 0-60 will suffer, but I don't think that is a design goal for a grocery getter.

SheepStar

[furrycute]

A larger motor of refinement and quality is more difficult to design and to produce than a smaller motor.

Just take a look at the rocket engines.

I don't remember the exact numbers. The Titan rocket that sent our spaceship to the moon was the largest rocket ever constructed by man. It has how many fantastically large engines? 4 or 6? I don't remember the exact numbers.

The Soviets tried to duplicate our feat. However, they never overcame the engineering obstacles in designing and building large rocket engines such as the ones used in the Titan rocket. So the Soviets bundled together a whole bunch of smaller engines hoping that will do the job. All of their rockets exploded shortly after take off. That's why the Soviets could never send one of their own to the moon.

[furrycute]

A 6 or 8 cylinder engine is more difficult to design and build than a 4 cylinder engine. But this does not preclude the possibility that Honda or Toyota can make a fantastic 4 cylinder engine that still keeps running after 100k miles.

[Sheep]

A 6 or 8 cylinder engine is more difficult to design and build than a 4 cylinder engine. But this does not preclude the possibility that Honda or Toyota can make a fantastic 4 cylinder engine that still keeps running after 100k miles.

I said 1 million. Yes, 1 million.

But now you're comparing apples to oranges. A 6 cylinder engine and 8 cylinder engine need more materials and have different ways of working/different parts, but an internal combustion engine still works the same way. The same parts in each, although different, still can benefit from the same technology and design.

SheepStar

[annunaki]

As long as the motor appropriately matches the mass it is intended to control you will have no difference other than increased output and lower frequency extension.

There used to be, and there still are to some degree, manufacturers who use the same motor for their 10", 12" and 15" drivers. This goes wrong when the motor was orginally for the 10" or 12" unit. This becomes a problem particularly on the 15" driver and causes response errors such as peaky response. This is why you see so many people claiming big woofers are sloppy. This is also cheaper because less material is needed in the motor.

Many companies can get around this hurdle (like TC Sounds) by designing a single motor for a 15" driver rather than a 10" or 12" and using it on all the subs. It costs a bit more because there are larger parts involved, but the benefits are truly worth it.

Other companies like JL Audio, particularly the W7 and W6v2, have different motors optimally designed for each size woofer. Even on the lower lines the 10" & 12" share the same motor but the 13.5" models get a proprietary one.

[annunaki]

You are reading too far into my car analogy. What I am saying is that if a larger driver is competantly designed it will always be as accurate as it's smaller brethren. If both are competantly designed, there will be no difference with the exception of lower frequency response and increased output over the operating range.

Many people mistake the increase in output, particularly in the 45hz-80hz range, as sloppiness when going to a larger woofer. The larger you go in woofer size, the lower one may need to go in terms of crossover point as the main speakers may/do not have the capability of effectively blending the 60hz-100hz content at the same level the woofer is capable of. Even though the sub may have ruler flat output from 100hz-15hz it can have substantially more output than the mains can efffectively keep up with near the crossover point. This is where room equalization can be very effective and proper calibration is essential.

[furrycute]

For the Velodyne DD series, do you know if Velodyne uses the same motor or different motors for the different sized subs in that series?

I've been thinking, if one day I can ever save up enough money, I might go for a Velodyne DD series 15inch sub. But if that motor is optimally designed for a 12inch, then I might just go with a DD 12inch sub.


By the way, excellent info on subs, annunaki.

[mike c]

For the Velodyne DD series, do you know if Velodyne uses the same motor or different motors for the different sized subs in that series?

I've been thinking, if one day I can ever save up enough money, I might go for a Velodyne DD series 15inch sub. But if that motor is optimally designed for a 12inch, then I might just go with a DD 12inch sub.


By the way, excellent info on subs, annunaki.

im not sure if motor size is related to magnet size ... but the 10 and 12 DD has the same magnet and the 15 and 18 has the same one.

so a jump from the 12 to the 15 is significant.

but the piston diameter is different between sizes


Woofer (Forward Firing): 10" (8" piston diameter) 12" (9.7" piston diameter) 15" (12.7" piston diameter) 18" (15.2" piston diameter)

[furrycute]

1 million miles on a Civic? Is that Civic still in one piece?:eek:

How in the world do you get 1 million miles on any car??? Is that still the same engine? Or did that guy replace the engine at 500k miles?

Suppose you drive 20k miles per year, that means you need to drive that car for 50 years in order to reach 1 million miles.

Suppose you drive 50k miles per year, that means you need to drive that car for 20 years in order to reach 1 million miles.


Was that Civic the first Civic Honda ever sold in the U.S.? And when did Honda start selling Civics in the U.S.? The 80's? And that's only been what, 30 or so years.

[annunaki]

So, a smaller driver will have to travel a larger distance in order to achieve the same SPL as the larger driver. This makes very good sense.

However, this requires the larger driver has a motor of sufficient quality and power to move the larger driver without creating too much distortion. And such a large motor is difficult and expensive to produce.

Actually the motor can essentially be the same, the force just needs to be increased slightly to handle the extra mass accordingly.

There are plenty of small drivers out there that have much distortion. Smaller drivers do not equal less distortion. Linear motors and suspensions equal less distortion regardless of size.


As to the car analogy. How many cars do you see made entirely out of composite materials. If two cars are made of the same materials, pound for pound, the engine in the smaller car has to accelerate significantly less mass than that engine in the bigger. Thus that bigger car needs to have a much more powerful, and refined engine, in order to achieve the same acceleration, and the same quality of acceleration, as the smaller car.


Large motors of such refinement are difficult to design and expensive to produce.


You are understanding this correctly. Larger motors only cost more in terms of material for subwoofers. The design is all the same from the 10" to an 18" within the same brand and series the amount of material simply increases.

[annunaki]

For the Velodyne DD series, do you know if Velodyne uses the same motor or different motors for the different sized subs in that series?

I've been thinking, if one day I can ever save up enough money, I might go for a Velodyne DD series 15inch sub. But if that motor is optimally designed for a 12inch, then I might just go with a DD 12inch sub.


By the way, excellent info on subs, annunaki.

Even if it is the same size, as long as the enclosure dimensions reflect the change in the T/S parameters there should not be much issue due to the use of the servo for limiting distortion. The use of a lighter cone/voice coil assembly in the 15" to reach the same mass as the 12" will also work appropriately.

[annunaki]

As Mike C indicated they use a shared motor for the 15" and 18" and one for the 10" and the 12". I would not worry about the DD15 being an inaccurate woofer. :D ;) They understand subwoofer design fairly well. :D

[Thunder18]

So, a smaller driver will have to travel a larger distance in order to achieve the same SPL as the larger driver. This makes very good sense.

However, this requires the larger driver has a motor of sufficient quality and power to move the larger driver without creating too much distortion. And such a large motor is difficult and expensive to produce.


As to the car analogy. How many cars do you see made entirely out of composite materials. If two cars are made of the same materials, pound for pound, the engine in the smaller car has to accelerate significantly less mass than that engine in the bigger. Thus that bigger car needs to have a much more powerful, and refined engine, in order to achieve the same acceleration, and the same quality of acceleration, as the smaller car.


Large motors of such refinement are difficult to design and expensive to produce.


I love car analogies! Ok, here goes: a group of auto reports recently went to Japan to test the new Nissan GT-R owned by a regular citizen that was willing to let them run some pretty brutal acceleration tests. For those that don't know, the GT-R's main target is the Porsche 911 Turbo, MSRP $122,900 via carpoint.com. 0-60 mph in 3.55 sec, 1/4 mile in 11.75 sec @ 124.30 mph and brakes from 60-0 mph in 110 ft. It also weighs in at a relatively light 3,360 lbs(it's light for a twin turbo all wheel drive sports car) and makes 480 hp and 460 lb-ft of torque.

The GT-R on the other hand will be priced starting at just under $70,000 via Edmunds.com. 0-60 mph in 3.3 sec, 1/4 mile in 11.6 sec @ 120.9 mph(on an admittedly slick surface) and brakes from 60-0 mph in 104 feet. The GT-R weighs 3,836 lbs. and does not have the benefit of ceramic composite brakes(for what it's worth, the Edmunds tested 911 Turbo stopped in 103 feet, but ceramic composite brakes add $8,800 to the price of the car for a 1 foot better improvement). Nissan has stated the US spec GT-R will make at least 473 hp and 434 lb-ft of torque.

As several people have mentioned earlier, smaller and lighter is not necessarily superior.

[Sheep]

1 million miles on a Civic? Is that Civic still in one piece?:eek:

How in the world do you get 1 million miles on any car??? Is that still the same engine? Or did that guy replace the engine at 500k miles?

Suppose you drive 20k miles per year, that means you need to drive that car for 50 years in order to reach 1 million miles.

Suppose you drive 50k miles per year, that means you need to drive that car for 20 years in order to reach 1 million miles.


Was that Civic the first Civic Honda ever sold in the U.S.? And when did Honda start selling Civics in the U.S.? The 80's? And that's only been what, 30 or so years.

Same engine and tranny. 4 clutches, 7 water pumps. I'll find the link.

http://www.autoblog.com/2007/10/01/craigslist-find-of-the-decade-930-000-mile-95-honda-civic/

All of those fixes are regular maintenance.

SheepStar

[furrycute]

Like those people on that car page pointed out, Honda should definitely let the owner of this million mile Civic trade it in for a brand new Honda. This car should be in a Honda museum!


With regard to sports cars. I was watching the Discovery channel the other day. They had a segment on future concept cars. There is this one guy one built an electric race car powered 100% by lithium ion batteries. That's right, he uses the same lithium ion batteries you and I use in our laptops. He just uses a WHOLE lot of those batteries. The entire car is almost covered up in lithium batteries.

And he claims that his electric car is the current world 0-60 speed record holder. In that TV segment, he raced his electric car against a Viper, and man, that electric car left the Viper in the dust! This is all due to the electric car's incredible initial torque. It takes the electric car almost no time to reach max torque. But the Viper will eventually out run the electric car once the Viper's engine builds up to max torque.

[annunaki]

An F1 car will do 0-62 mph in about 1.5 seconds or so and go from 0-100 mph in around 2.8-3.0 seconds. It will go 0-100-0 mph in about 5.0 seconds. This is all done with a 780 bhp 2.4L V-8 revving to 19,000 rpm.

The V-10 powered monsters from '04 were even quicker in straight line accelration (fractionally) and were making 980+ bhp from just a 3.0L V-10 revving to over19,000 rpm. Honda and Ferrari were developing a 20,000+ rpm V-10 until they regualted the engines to just 8 cylinders. The V-10s sounded so sweet at full song.

That (F1) is a purpose built racecar though. A production sports car doing 0-60 in 2.8 seconds or so is VERY impressive.

[Sheep]

That (F1) is a purpose built racecar though. A production sports car doing 0-60 in 2.8 seconds or so is VERY impressive.

Ariel Atom can do 2.9. Honda Powered of course.

SheepStar

[annunaki]

The Atom is an impressive machine. The top end supercharged version has an excellent power-to-weight ratio. The Atom is at around 1bhp:3.33 lbs. For a street car, that is phenomenal! The Atom only weighs, if I remember correctly, 1,000 lbs. or 454.5 kilos!

For reference, F1 cars are currently at 1bhp:1.74 lbs with driver. (minimum weight with driver is 1,320 lbs. or 600 kilos)

[Bluesmoke]

Ariel Atom can do 2.9. Honda Powered of course.

SheepStar

In consumerland, Honda = reliability. In F1 land, Honda = exploding engines. :D

[HTfan14]

Soooooo, where the pics of the sub? Further reviews?:cool:

[annunaki]

In consumerland, Honda = reliability. In F1 land, Honda = exploding engines. :D


That was/is/has been true. With the engine freeze they have been much better. It says to me they are really pushing the envelope with engine development, for F1 that is.

Honda's road cars have phenomenal reliability for engine and drive train as a whole. (...Knocks on wood as I own a Honda)

[Warpdrv]

That (F1) is a purpose built racecar though. A production sports car doing 0-60 in 2.8 seconds or so is VERY impressive.

That is very impressive, as my Motorcycle does exactly that, 0-60 in 2.8 seconds with 1300cc 150hp...

I love motorsports... in fact my Moto is

If it doesn't have a motor, Its not a sport !!!

[annunaki]

A bike and the Atom are the closest thing available the average consumer can experience that are remotely close to F1 type acceleration. Unfortunately there is nothing available that will brake or corner like an F1 car.

[Sheep]

That is very impressive, as my Motorcycle does exactly that, 0-60 in 2.8 seconds with 1300cc 150hp...

I love motorsports... in fact my Moto is

If it doesn't have a motor, Its not a sport !!!

Really? I thought they were called ENGINES! Motors don't generate their own power.

Continue.

SheepStar

[Bluesmoke]

Soooooo, where the pics of the sub? Further reviews?:cool:

Coming friend. In fact, I think I'm doing a full review with comparisons. I'm not that technically sound in terms of measurement but I do have a good ear and will compare my Energy S10.3 to the 5000r. Pics are coming as well. I'm waiting for my GF to get back from her Montreal trip (Friend's wedding). Her camera is much better than my garbage 1 mpixel.

[Bluesmoke]

A bike and the Atom are the closest thing available the average consumer can experience that are remotely close to F1 type acceleration. Unfortunately there is nothing available that will brake or corner like an F1 car.

http://www.3autos.com/upload/3autos.com/200508/2005_ultima_gtr_sets_0_100mph_0_world_record.jpg

You forgot this badboy.

[Sheep]

http://www.3autos.com/upload/3autos.com/200508/2005_ultima_gtr_sets_0_100mph_0_world_record.jpg

You forgot this badboy.

You both forgot this badass.

Caparo T1

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SheepStar

[jagxtype]

Really? I thought they were called ENGINES! Motors don't generate their own power.

Continue.

SheepStar

Neither do engines hints the gasoline or diesel you put in your tank:rolleyes:
Just like electrical motors use electricity to produce a magnetic field that turns the electrical energy to mechanical energy, Internal Combustion engines use gasoline to create combustion which is heat and then turns thermal energy into mechanical energy. explain to me in terms of relativity how the two differ from one another. According to the law of conservation of energy, you cannot create energy from nothing and energy cannot be destroyed, but only transfered.

I beleive a motor is in part defined as a internal combustion which inpart is defined by engine. An Engine is a MOTOR that uses thermal energy to create mechanical energy. Motors are anything that create motion.

:eek:

[Bluesmoke]

To get back to the topic at hand,

I have a question. So far, what I really love about the velodyne 5000r is the SLAM it produces. I'm probably using about 1/2 volume and it really outclasses my Energy S10.3 in tactile effects on loud explosions and electronic music. The S10.3 felt weak. Anytime I turned the volume more than 1/2 up, it sounded bloated and boomy.

However, since my room is only about 1400cu/f, I'm wondering whether or not the SVS PB10 NSD would be a better choice for me. It's $499 and I can buy it locally at Sonicboom (authorized dealer) and $50 more than what I paid for the 5000r. I can also return the Velo 5000r within 25 days (from today) to Future Shop. Any advice here? My main concern is that the PB10 will play deeper than the Velodyne and I'm wondering how much I'm missing out in terms of deep bass. Hwoever, I don't want to miss the slam of the Velo. It shakes my room good. ;):eek:

[mike c]

if you said it was the PB12NSD (goes to 18hz), I'd think about it. but the PB10 goes to 20 and i'm not sure if it's that much of a difference with the 5000R ... in a room that small, you'd have room gain up to your neck though :)

i'm using my axiom EP500 as comparison for the PB10NSD.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21574&highlight=axiom+velodyne+ep500

[Mudcat]

Just take a look at the rocket engines.

I don't remember the exact numbers. The Titan rocket that sent our spaceship to the moon was the largest rocket ever constructed by man. It has how many fantastically large engines? 4 or 6? I don't remember the exact numbers.

The Soviets tried to duplicate our feat. However, they never overcame the engineering obstacles in designing and building large rocket engines such as the ones used in the Titan rocket. So the Soviets bundled together a whole bunch of smaller engines hoping that will do the job. All of their rockets exploded shortly after take off. That's why the Soviets could never send one of their own to the moon.

This was actually funny sort of like Gilda Radner's Rosann Rosanadanna from 70's SNL because everything within the quotes is seriously very wrong.

The first thing is the rocket we (NASA) sent to the moon was the Saturn, not the Titan. The Titan was the two stage launch vehicle that sent the Gemini Astronauts up. The Titan was also the launch vehicle for the USAs largest ballistic missles. The Titan had two first stage engines, each rated at about 150,000 lbs of thrust barely enough to achieve obital velocity, much less escape velocity and one second stage engine of 80,000 lbs thrust . The Saturn on the other hand was a three stage rocket. The Saturn had five Rocketdyne F1 first stage engines, each of which was rated at 1,500,000 lbs thrust for a total of 7,500,000 lbs thrust. In terms of horsepower, each of the five engines is approximately 32,000,000 BHP. There were also five Rocketdyne J2 second stage engine of 250,000 lbs thrust each, and on Rocketdyne J2 third stage engine.

The Soviets actually landed (crashed) an unmanned vehicle on the moon a couple of years before we got there, and until the Saturn was built had the most powerful rockets. The soviet rockets were not cobbled together but appear that way because of the fluted first stage. The Saturn has a fluted first stage too, but only for the bottom 10 percent while the Soviets was probably about 50% of the first stage length.

All those old movies of rockets exploding. Those are ours (USAs).




Originally Posted by Sheep
Really? I thought they were called ENGINES! Motors don't generate their own power.

Continue.

SheepStar
.
Neither do engines hints the gasoline or diesel you put in your tank
Just like electrical motors use electricity to produce a magnetic field that turns the electrical energy to mechanical energy, Internal Combustion engines use gasoline to create combustion which is heat and then turns thermal energy into mechanical energy. explain to me in terms of relativity how the two differ from one another. According to the law of conservation of energy, you cannot create energy from nothing and energy cannot be destroyed, but only transfered.

I beleive a motor is in part defined as a internal combustion which inpart is defined by engine. An Engine is a MOTOR that uses thermal energy to create mechanical energy. Motors are anything that create motion..

An engine is a motor that consumes fuel. Your dafynition of a motor is correct. An electric motor does not consume fuel but convert energy from one form to another.

[annunaki]

To get back to the topic at hand,

I have a question. So far, what I really love about the velodyne 5000r is the SLAM it produces. I'm probably using about 1/2 volume and it really outclasses my Energy S10.3 in tactile effects on loud explosions and electronic music. The S10.3 felt weak. Anytime I turned the volume more than 1/2 up, it sounded bloated and boomy.

However, since my room is only about 1400cu/f, I'm wondering whether or not the SVS PB10 NSD would be a better choice for me. It's $499 and I can buy it locally at Sonicboom (authorized dealer) and $50 more than what I paid for the 5000r. I can also return the Velo 5000r within 25 days (from today) to Future Shop. Any advice here? My main concern is that the PB10 will play deeper than the Velodyne and I'm wondering how much I'm missing out in terms of deep bass. Hwoever, I don't want to miss the slam of the Velo. It shakes my room good. ;):eek:

That is a small room! The reason the sub is sounding boomy is because it is beginning to overpower everything else in the room (most likely because of room gain). Try backing the gain down a bit on the subwoofer. Calibrate it at high volume so it blends in, if that is where you will use it most. Then relisten to the system and see what you think. Also take into account room placement. double check to make sure it is the best sounding spot in the room. Just because the 10" sounded good there may not mean the 15" will sound good there. The main reason is that the 15" may excite room modes that the 10" simply was not capable of.

[jagxtype]

This was actually funny sort of like Gilda Radner's Rosann Rosanadanna from 70's SNL because everything within the quotes is seriously very wrong.

The first thing is the rocket we (NASA) sent to the moon was the Saturn, not the Titan. The Titan was the two stage launch vehicle that sent the Gemini Astronauts up. The Titan was also the launch vehicle for the USAs largest ballistic missles. The Titan had two first stage engines, each rated at about 150,000 lbs of thrust barely enough to achieve obital velocity, much less escape velocity and one second stage engine of 80,000 lbs thrust . The Saturn on the other hand was a three stage rocket. The Saturn had five Rocketdyne F1 first stage engines, each of which was rated at 1,500,000 lbs thrust for a total of 7,500,000 lbs thrust. In terms of horsepower, each of the five engines is approximately 32,000,000 BHP. There were also five Rocketdyne J2 second stage engine of 250,000 lbs thrust each, and on Rocketdyne J2 third stage engine.

The Soviets actually landed (crashed) an unmanned vehicle on the moon a couple of years before we got there, and until the Saturn was built had the most powerful rockets. The soviet rockets were not cobbled together but appear that way because of the fluted first stage. The Saturn has a fluted first stage too, but only for the bottom 10 percent while the Soviets was probably about 50% of the first stage length.

All those old movies of rockets exploding. Those are ours (USAs).





An engine is a motor that consumes fuel. Your dafynition of a motor is correct. An electric motor does not consume fuel but convert energy from one form to another.

And what is consumed to produce that electricity? FUEL! An engine can be run off of steam which is directly converting thermal energy into mechanical energy, does this make it a motor? Like said in my previous post, prove to me how they differ using relativity. They do not, so dont waste your time :) Both the steam ENGINE and the electric MOTOR require an external source for their energy which in one way or another comes from a fuel. Even if your using solar energy, the sun has to have fuel :p

Sorry for leading the thread astray, carry on.

[Sheep]

Neither do engines hints the gasoline or diesel you put in your tank:rolleyes:
Just like electrical motors use electricity to produce a magnetic field that turns the electrical energy to mechanical energy, Internal Combustion engines use gasoline to create combustion which is heat and then turns thermal energy into mechanical energy. explain to me in terms of relativity how the two differ from one another. According to the law of conservation of energy, you cannot create energy from nothing and energy cannot be destroyed, but only transfered.

I beleive a motor is in part defined as a internal combustion which inpart is defined by engine. An Engine is a MOTOR that uses thermal energy to create mechanical energy. Motors are anything that create motion.

:eek:

Wrong. Gasoline has no kinetic energy, just potential. The ENGINE converts that potential energy into kinetic energy.

"An engine whose purpose is to produce kinetic energy output from a fuel source is called a prime mover; alternatively, a motor is a device which produces kinetic energy from a preprocessed "fuel" (such as electricity, a flow of hydraulic fluid or compressed air)."

"A car has a starter motor, a windscreen wiper motor, windscreen washer motor, a fuel pump motor and motors to adjust the wing mirrors from within the car and a (motorised) radio antenna - but the power plant that propels the car is an engine."

SheepStar

[Sheep]

if you said it was the PB12NSD (goes to 18hz), I'd think about it. but the PB10 goes to 20 and i'm not sure if it's that much of a difference with the 5000R ... in a room that small, you'd have room gain up to your neck though :)

i'm using my axiom EP500 as comparison for the PB10NSD.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21574&highlight=axiom+velodyne+ep500

Really? I've seen in room measurements of the PB10 in a bigger room the Bluesmoke's and it went down to 15Hz.

The subwoofer is tuned to 20Hz, but it doesn't crap out there.

SheepStar

[mike c]

Really? I've seen in room measurements of the PB10 in a bigger room the Bluesmoke's and it went down to 15Hz.

The subwoofer is tuned to 20Hz, but it doesn't crap out there.

SheepStar

that's with room gain. i was looking at the svs anechoic graph, if im not mistaken, it's likely SVS is using a subsonic filter on their plate amp.
plus the fact, I dont think that a 10"er should be doing 10hz in significant SPL's anyway.

[Sheep]

that's with room gain. i was looking at the svs anechoic graph, if im not mistaken, it's likely SVS is using a subsonic filter on their plate amp.
plus the fact, I dont think that a 10"er should be doing 10hz in significant SPL's anyway.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/images/svs-pb10-isd-fr3s.gif

That is in a larger room then Bluesmoke's.

SheepStar

[mike c]

that says +/-5 dB "3 seat average"?
this one from SVS says: +/- 3dB from 20-100 Hz anechoic http://www.svsound.com/pix/f_pb10_curve.jpg

[Bluesmoke]

Good god, now I'm confused. So far, I can't complain about the Velo. But I'm seriously considering the PB10 if it can sound better and deeper in my room.

[Sheep]

that says +/-5 dB "3 seat average"?
this one from SVS says: +/- 3dB from 20-100 Hz anechoic http://www.svsound.com/pix/f_pb10_curve.jpg

Yeah, do you live in a anechoic chamber? No. In room measurements are more reliable and more relatable.

SheepStar

[mike c]

Yeah, do you live in a anechoic chamber? No. In room measurements are more reliable and more relatable.

SheepStar

no, that means, that measurement already had room gain and is almost half as loud.

actually, room measurements are more UNrelatable than anechoic measurements. at least everybody starts at the same point with anechoic.

my ep500 measures 18hz anechoic and in room as well.

[Sheep]

no, that means, that measurement already had room gain and is almost half as loud.

actually, room measurements are more UNrelatable than anechoic measurements. at least everybody starts at the same point with anechoic.


How can an in room measurement be un-relatable? Do you not have rooms? You're never going to get Anechoic performance, ever. Sounds relatable to me.

SheepStar

[mike c]

simply because in my old room, the ep500 really does 18hz. in my bedroom, i dont think it even breaks 20hz. thats how unrelatable rooms are ... and these two rooms are similar in size.

[annunaki]

Anechoic response is much more reliable data. In-room nearfield response would be more accurate than in-room response at the listening positions, even if they are averaged.

[Sheep]

simply because in my old room, the ep500 really does 18hz. in my bedroom, i dont think it even breaks 20hz. thats how unrelatable rooms are ... and these two rooms are similar in size.

That would be an acoustics problem. Also could be the seating. The output will be greater in a room, and when setup properly lower. I think the room used for those measurements was rather large.

All of Tom Nousaine's measurements are done in a 7500cu.ft. room, with the subwoofer corner loaded.

Measure the output near-field and you will get real world performance.

SheepStar

[HTfan14]

Good god, now I'm confused. So far, I can't complain about the Velo. But I'm seriously considering the PB10 if it can sound better and deeper in my room.


How is there return policy? You could always bring one home and compare to the Velo...:cool:

[furrycute]

A 10inch going deeper than a 15inch? I will believe that when pigs start flying.

A 10inch may go as low as a 15inch, but with a LOT more distortion and strain.

Don't buy into all the hype.

[Bluesmoke]

A 10inch going deeper than a 15inch? I will believe that when pigs start flying.

A 10inch may go as low as a 15inch, but with a LOT more distortion and strain.

Don't buy into all the hype.

Well, I know the PB10 can get down to 18hz with good SPL. The Velo 5000r is rated at 23hz, so I don't know what kind of spl it maintains if it gets down to the teens. It's also a slot loaded sub, so I don't know if it's capped at a certain tuning point.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_3/velodyne-dls-5000r-subwoofer-9-2005-part-2.html

I can't make head and tails from this review. The graph doesn't look very impressive but he says it's a great subwoofer. :confused:

[Warpdrv]

In a smaller room the PB10 will do pretty well... in a medium size room I would be looking towards a PB12.

A ported design can and will go lower then a sealed design, unless EQ is used to raise that low end roll off..

So it is possible in a small room that a smal 10" ported designed sub can go lower then a 15" sealed sub design.. of coarse there are alot of variables here as well... so YMMV


*****EDIT**** My bad, the Velo is a ported sub... BLAH...

But what I said is possible...

[mike c]

yep. the velo is tuned to around 30hz but has an EQ boost lower than that BUT a subsonic filter at 24hz. the PB10 is tuned to 20hz. so in SPL, the PB10 is pretty much outgunned (because of the tuning and size of the driver and amp) but in extension, the PB10 is better, in a small room ... but as you can see here, it compresses slightly around 100db outdoors

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/994-svs-pb10-isd-2nd-unit.html

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests/6013-svs-pb10-isd-1st-unit.html

here, the 5000R can do 105db before compressing.

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=14732&start=0&rid=14&SQ=1126361620

you decide. but you can get around the SPL thing using dual PB10's.

[Sheep]

A 10inch going deeper than a 15inch? I will believe that when pigs start flying.

A 10inch may go as low as a 15inch, but with a LOT more distortion and strain.

Don't buy into all the hype.

It's possible, but the 10inch driver would need to be very well engineered and the 15inch would not.

AVtalk has ground plain measurements for the 5000R, it wasn't that impressive, at least not compared to the PB10 as far as extension goes.

SheepStar

[Bluesmoke]

I don't have a big budget. In fact the reason I got the 5000r was because it was on sale for a ridiculous price. I also can't really afford 2 PB10s.

Would it be wise to stick with the 15" sub or perhaps wait for a sale on a Energy s10.3 so I would have 2 of them. I find that the quality of the bass is superior on the Velodyne to a single S10.3.

[Sheep]

I don't have a big budget. In fact the reason I got the 5000r was because it was on sale for a ridiculous price. I also can't really afford 2 PB10s.

Would it be wise to stick with the 15" sub or perhaps wait for a sale on a Energy s10.3 so I would have 2 of them. I find that the quality of the bass is superior on the Velodyne to a single S10.3.

Well if there was a time to get another 10.3, it was then.

I have done extensive listening with both those models, back and both in the same room and I preferred the Energy. It just seemed cleaner. No doubt the 5000R will win the SPL competition, but in your room both should be adequately loud.

SheepStar

[Warpdrv]

Bluesmoke... did you list your room size, and your budget...

There are alternatives.. $600 will get you a eD A5-350 15" that will probably wreck ya... but wait time is into the 2 months range...

Oh cr@p, here I go again... you live in ahhhh up there... :)

Can you get B-Stock..? good deals there yes.. ?

[furrycute]

It's not a good idea to mix and match 2 different subs. It will give you nothing but a ton of headaches.

Be satisfied with what you have right now. You made a very good purchase with that Velodyne, excellent bang for the buck factor.

If you want to go higher up still, wait a couple of years, save up the money to buy a top of the line Velodyne DD series 15inch or 18inch sub.

In the mean time, start enjoying your sub, and stop second guessing your decision, and stop wasting money on lower end subs. "A 10inch will go lower than a 15inch." Yeah right! If you believe that than I have some prime real estate on the moon to sell you.

[Bluesmoke]

Bluesmoke... did you list your room size, and your budget...

There are alternatives.. $600 will get you a eD A5-350 15" that will probably wreck ya... but wait time is into the 2 months range...

Oh cr@p, here I go again... you live in ahhhh up there... :)

Can you get B-Stock..? good deals there yes.. ?

14x11x11 is my room size. The reason I got the 5000r was so I could finance some of it ny selling the Energy S10.

[Sheep]

It's not a good idea to mix and match 2 different subs. It will give you nothing but a ton of headaches.

Be satisfied with what you have right now. You made a very good purchase with that Velodyne, excellent bang for the buck factor.

If you want to go higher up still, wait a couple of years, save up the money to buy a top of the line Velodyne DD series 15inch or 18inch sub.

In the mean time, start enjoying your sub, and stop second guessing your decision, and stop wasting money on lower end subs. "A 10inch will go lower than a 15inch." Yeah right! If you believe that than I have some prime real estate on the moon to sell you.

You asked for it...

5000R ground plain from AVtalk.
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=4731

SVS PB-10ISD
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/images/svs-pb10-isd-fr2m.gif

Both microphones are placed 2m from the sub, ground plain. I highly doubt the equipment would make change the results.

SheepStar

[Bluesmoke]

It's not a good idea to mix and match 2 different subs. It will give you nothing but a ton of headaches.

Be satisfied with what you have right now. You made a very good purchase with that Velodyne, excellent bang for the buck factor.

If you want to go higher up still, wait a couple of years, save up the money to buy a top of the line Velodyne DD series 15inch or 18inch sub.

In the mean time, start enjoying your sub, and stop second guessing your decision, and stop wasting money on lower end subs. "A 10inch will go lower than a 15inch." Yeah right! If you believe that than I have some prime real estate on the moon to sell you.

I wasn't thinking of matching 2 different subs. My options are:

a) Keep the Velo 5000
b) Keep my Energy S10.3 and add another when they go on sale at Future Shop
c) Get a SVS PB10

So far, I really have no complaints about the Velo 5000r. I love the fact that I can place it where I want and switch phase with the remote. It's so convininent. And its SPLs are nuts! However, as I mentioned, I'm concerned about its abilities to produce low bass in the 20hz-25hz range. I'm not too concerned about the 17-19hz as I know I'll have to shell out a ton of $$$ to get a good sub that can do that. The SVS PB10 is the only one that may within my budget.

[mike c]

S10.3 spec from energy website 21Hz-120Hz +/- 3dB

i dont think i would replace the 5000R with two of those.

[Sheep]

S10.3 spec from energy website 21Hz-120Hz +/- 3dB

i dont think i would replace the 5000R with two of those.

The Tom Nousaine measurements state the S10.3 producing 84dB at 20Hz with 10% THD. That's in a 7500cu ft room. It also average 104dB from 25-62Hz. The DLSR5000R did 108 from 25-62, and hit 91dB, at 25hz. The S12.3 managed 86.9dB at 20hz, 105.7dB at 25hz, and averaged 110dB from 25-62Hz. All these measurements were done in the same room, same place. I'd say that is a pretty good showing for a 10inch subwoofer. The S12.3 is ranked 7th from the top.

SheepStar

[annunaki]

According to Sheep's last post it clearly shows more output potential with the Velo. I say keep it start enjoying it and tweaking for best performance.

A 10" driver can easily play deeper than a 15" driver, if the 15" driver is in a higher tuned vented enclosure. The 15" will have more output over its operating bandwidth by a pretty large margin, but a 10" (vented) tuned lower could play deeper. However, it will have to struggle a bit at those low frequencies to produce higher spl's. If the 10" and the 15" were in equally tuned, vented enclosures, the 15" would appear to play deeper as it can play the frequencies below the tuning frequency at a higher spl until the rolloff or infrasonic filter of the system renders them inaudible.

Depending upon the tuning frequency of the Velo, it is entirely possible that the 10" SVS plays a bit louder at low frequencies near it's native tuning frequency (around 20hz). Once the subwoofer's are "in room" this difference will disappear some.

[furrycute]

Yeah, a 10inch trying to pump out sub 20Hz frequency, impressive, but at what price?

That graph only shows SPL, it doesn't show distortion. A 10inch trying to reproduce sub 20Hz frequencies will have CRAZY amounts of distortion. Is this what you are looking for in a sub?



You asked for it...

5000R ground plain from AVtalk.
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=4731

SVS PB-10ISD
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/images/svs-pb10-isd-fr2m.gif

Both microphones are placed 2m from the sub, ground plain. I highly doubt the equipment would make change the results.

SheepStar

[furrycute]

Thanks for the graphs Sheep. These graphs just bring home another point about that SVS 10 inch.

SVS is clearly pushing beyond the limits of what a 10 inch woofer is realistically capable of producing. In trying to reproduce those sub 20 Hz frequencies, that 10 inch woofer is clearly breaking up and making all sorts of nasty distortions. Luckily for SVS, 20 Hz is the lower limit of human hearing. Those subsonic distortions are not normally audible. But you can feel that something is definitely not right. If you hear these kinds of distortions from your front speakers, you will freak out.

SVS's design philosophy in this instance clearly demonstrates that it is willing to sacrifice clarity (low distortion) for unrealistic subsonic SPL.

[Matt34]

Thanks for the graphs Sheep. These graphs just bring home another point about that SVS 10 inch.

SVS is clearly pushing beyond the limits of what a 10 inch woofer is realistically capable of producing. In trying to reproduce those sub 20 Hz frequencies, that 10 inch woofer is clearly breaking up and making all sorts of nasty distortions. Luckily for SVS, 20 Hz is the lower limit of human hearing. Those subsonic distortions are not normally audible. But you can feel that something is definitely not right. If you hear these kinds of distortions from your front speakers, you will freak out.

SVS's design philosophy in this instance clearly demonstrates that it is willing to sacrifice clarity (low distortion) for unrealistic subsonic SPL.

Am I missing something, where are you getting the distortion levels on that graph?

[Sheep]

Thanks for the graphs Sheep. These graphs just bring home another point about that SVS 10 inch.

SVS is clearly pushing beyond the limits of what a 10 inch woofer is realistically capable of producing. In trying to reproduce those sub 20 Hz frequencies, that 10 inch woofer is clearly breaking up and making all sorts of nasty distortions. Luckily for SVS, 20 Hz is the lower limit of human hearing. Those subsonic distortions are not normally audible. But you can feel that something is definitely not right. If you hear these kinds of distortions from your front speakers, you will freak out.

SVS's design philosophy in this instance clearly demonstrates that it is willing to sacrifice clarity (low distortion) for unrealistic subsonic SPL.

I can get you the distortion graphs for the SVS. I believe it was 10% limited. And BTW, distortion that low is extremely hard to detect with the human ear. It could go up to 25% and not be that noticeable.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/images/svs-pb10-isd-thd2m.gif

Here are the ground plain numbers.

20 Hz: 93.9 dB (8.0 % - amplifier limited)
22 Hz: 96.9 dB (2.7 % - amplifier limited)
25 Hz: 102.2 dB
32 Hz: 104.1 dB
40 Hz: 105.8 dB
50 Hz: 106.7 dB
63 Hz: 105.7 dB
80 Hz: 104.0 dB

My DIY sub will be using the Infinity Kappa perfect 10inch driver, and it will make a mockery of the 5000R, guaranteed.

SheepStar

[Sheep]

Yeah, a 10inch trying to pump out sub 20Hz frequency, impressive, but at what price?

That graph only shows SPL, it doesn't show distortion. A 10inch trying to reproduce sub 20Hz frequencies will have CRAZY amounts of distortion. Is this what you are looking for in a sub?

And just to salt the wounds, here is the distortion graphs from the 5000R. A 15inch woofer doesn't create distortion because it's bigger right?

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=getfile&id=4733

SheepStar

[Sheep]

According to Sheep's last post it clearly shows more output potential with the Velo. I say keep it start enjoying it and tweaking for best performance.

A 10" driver can easily play deeper than a 15" driver, if the 15" driver is in a higher tuned vented enclosure. The 15" will have more output over its operating bandwidth by a pretty large margin, but a 10" (vented) tuned lower could play deeper. However, it will have to struggle a bit at those low frequencies to produce higher spl's. If the 10" and the 15" were in equally tuned, vented enclosures, the 15" would appear to play deeper as it can play the frequencies below the tuning frequency at a higher spl until the rolloff or infrasonic filter of the system renders them inaudible.

Depending upon the tuning frequency of the Velo, it is entirely possible that the 10" SVS plays a bit louder at low frequencies near it's native tuning frequency (around 20hz). Once the subwoofer's are "in room" this difference will disappear some.

The DSLR and CHTR series were tuned at either 34 or 32Hz (smaller driver versions 34Hz, larger 32Hz).

SheepStar

[Bluesmoke]

So any advice on what I should do?

My budget is $600CDN max for a sub. I already own an Energy S10.3. I bought the 5000r for $450 and still have the return window at Futrue Shop.

[Sheep]

So any advice on what I should do?

My budget is $600CDN max for a sub. I already own an Energy S10.3. I bought the 5000r for $450 and still have the return window at Futrue Shop.

Well, if you're considering this it sounds like you're not completely satisfied with the 5000R. You could take it back now, and try out dual S10.3s. Then if you aren't completely satisfied with that, you can take it back and get a PB-10NSD. I have a feeling you will be satisfied with that. Then you can sell your old S10.3.

SheepStar

[Bluesmoke]

I think what I'm going to do is see if there's a sale on the S10 sometime in the next 2 weeks, or I'll just buy one to test it with mine and then return it. If I don't think it can compete with the Velo in the 25hz+ range, then I won't keep it. It really sucks that I can't go low 20s with the Velo without massive distortion.

[annunaki]

The SVS is one of the best buys in getting even response into the low 20hz range. A DIY option could get you even better for less money if you are open to it. The Dayton High fidelity driver at parts express and the Infinity Perfect VQ are very nice options there.

[Bluesmoke]

The SVS is one of the best buys in getting even response into the low 20hz range. A DIY option could get you even better for less money if you are open to it. The Dayton High fidelity driver at parts express and the Infinity Perfect VQ are very nice options there.

Yea, but will the PB10 shake the floors like the 5000r in my room? The Energy S10.3 can't do it. I can barely feel any tactile effects from it. So I'm wondering exactly how much of an improvement am I going to get out of it over the Energy. I'd prefer to buy in Canada. WIth shipping from Parts Express, there's nothing to be saved.

[billy p]

Yea, but will the PB10 shake the floors like the 5000r in my room? The Energy S10.3 can't do it. I can barely feel any tactile effects from it. So I'm wondering exactly how much of an improvement am I going to get out of it over the Energy. I'd prefer to buy in Canada. WIth shipping from Parts Express, there's nothing to be saved.

I've ordered supplies from them(partsxpress). I didn't like their customer service and the actual shipping cost me more the than the parts I purchased! Although I saved a couple of bucks in place of buying locally, it wasn't worth the hassle.

[annunaki]

In the US parts express is a decent place to go. There may be other distributors who carry the items in question.

If you want shake the floors type output, along with very low frequency extension, I would look (at minimum) into the PB12, a diy sub woofer with a 12" woofer or larger, or a more expensive sub with lower tuning and a large driver.

[Matt34]

My first suggestion would be to return the Velo and sell the 10.3 and get a PB-12 and have no remorse.

2nd suggestion (if finances permit) sell the 10.3 and get a second Velo 5000r.



When I was running a single HSU VTF 3.2(comparable to the PB-12) in a room close in size to yours it would shake, rattle and roll anything not bolted down.

[annunaki]

After looking at the DLS-5000R again, something does not make sense. If the -3db point is at 23hz it cannot be tuned at 30hz. Here's why. Vented enclosures exibit a 24db/oct. rolloff below the tuning frequency. If it were tuned to 30hz, the response would be down -12db at just 25.5hz. This could be fixed with massive amounts of EQ but would then also probably destroy the driver.

Since we know that subs roll off at 24db/oct. in a vented enclosure the true tuning frequency should be around 24hz-24.5hz. (The sub will be -24db at 12hz, -12db at 18hz, -6db at 21hz and -3db at 22.5hz most likey rounded up to 23hz) My guess is that the infrasonic filter is also just below the tuning frequency since it rolls off so quickly probably at 20hz or so. Maybe even at the -3db point of 23hz.

Due to the high amounts of distortion showing on the plots, I would assume that the response rolls off from around 32hz or so and then sharply below the tuning frequency. To fix this (I assume) Velodyne has eq'ed the response in this region (24hz-30hz) to bring it in line with the rest of the woofer's response. The Eq is causing the woofer to have more distortion at the lower frequencies below 30hz.

Applying an eq below the tuning frequency is a big no-no so I doubt Velodyne have done this.

I like Matt34's options by the way.

[3db]

Whats going on here? :eek:

ten pages of "size matters" :rolleyes: and no pics?

Come on guys!! Get with teh program already!! :D

[FIqbal]

Yea, but will the PB10 shake the floors like the 5000r in my room? The Energy S10.3 can't do it. I can barely feel any tactile effects from it. So I'm wondering exactly how much of an improvement am I going to get out of it over the Energy. I'd prefer to buy in Canada. WIth shipping from Parts Express, there's nothing to be saved.

---------------
In case you decide to buy SBS from Electronics for Less, based on my expereice I can tell you that you can negotiate the price for the SVS. I have brought an STF-2 from there and paid CAD 50 less than the advertised price. Since the seller will be saving on courier charges in case you pick it up, do not be afraid to make a counter offer.

[mike c]

After looking at the DLS-5000R again, something does not make sense. If the -3db point is at 23hz it cannot be tuned at 30hz. Here's why. Vented enclosures exibit a 24db/oct. rolloff below the tuning frequency. If it were tuned to 30hz, the response would be down -12db at just 25.5hz. This could be fixed with massive amounts of EQ but would then also probably destroy the driver.

Since we know that subs roll off at 24db/oct. in a vented enclosure the true tuning frequency should be around 24hz-24.5hz. (The sub will be -24db at 12hz, -12db at 18hz, -6db at 21hz and -3db at 22.5hz most likey rounded up to 23hz) My guess is that the infrasonic filter is also just below the tuning frequency since it rolls off so quickly probably at 20hz or so. Maybe even at the -3db point of 23hz.

Due to the high amounts of distortion showing on the plots, I would assume that the response rolls off from around 32hz or so and then sharply below the tuning frequency. To fix this (I assume) Velodyne has eq'ed the response in this region (24hz-30hz) to bring it in line with the rest of the woofer's response. The Eq is causing the woofer to have more distortion at the lower frequencies below 30hz.

Applying an eq below the tuning frequency is a big no-no so I doubt Velodyne have done this.

I like Matt34's options by the way.

the Axiom EP500 has an EQ boost below tuning (which is why it has tons of distortion) see the Audioholics review.

the Velo has an EQ boost near the tuning point, but still above it IF the tuning point is indeed 30hz or it could be higher seeing how short the port is.

http://www.velodyne.com/tech/whitepapers/Subwoofer%20tuning%20white%20paper2_final.pdf

see page 5

[Bluesmoke]

---------------
In case you decide to buy SBS from Electronics for Less, based on my expereice I can tell you that you can negotiate the price for the SVS. I have brought an STF-2 from there and paid CAD 50 less than the advertised price. Since the seller will be saving on courier charges in case you pick it up, do not be afraid to make a counter offer.

Where are you seeing SVS subs at Electronics for less?

[Sheep]

My first suggestion would be to return the Velo and sell the 10.3 and get a PB-12 and have no remorse.

2nd suggestion (if finances permit) sell the 10.3 and get a second Velo 5000r.



When I was running a single HSU VTF 3.2(comparable to the PB-12) in a room close in size to yours it would shake, rattle and roll anything not bolted down.

The Velodyne is no longer on sale for that price. Also, good luck matching the volumes on those subwoofers, no knobs.

His room isn't that Big. 14x11x11 isn't much. A PB-10 should be able to pressurize that no problem.

SheepStar

[mike c]

i have no problem matching the volume of two of those. i just always start at the default setting by resetting the subs.

Bluesmoke, why don't you bring your Velo to sonic boom audio. A/B there and be done with this question. they must have some sort of small office or room you can use. I'm sure even they will welcome a free A/B test with their competition.

[FIqbal]

Where are you seeing SVS subs at Electronics for less?

------------------
On the top right corner of electronics for less webpage there is a link "sonicboomaudio". It sells in the same store, but most likely under a different company name.

[billy p]

------------------
On the top right corner of electronics for less webpage there is a link "sonicboomaudio". It sells in the same store, but most likely under a different company name.

EFL and Sonicboom are the same store! Sonicboom is EXCLUSIVE to SVS, they share management and ownership.

[Bluesmoke]

I'm going to trek down to Sonic boom and have a listen. I'm not going to take my Velo there though. It's just too heavy. I'll have a good idea still.

I really didn't want to spend too much on a sub as I spent way more than I had planned to already with my setup.

I'm going to listen to the PB10 and PB12 there. And God forbid I try the Plus subs. No, I don't think I will do that. :(

[Matt34]

I'm going to trek down to Sonic boom and have a listen. I'm not going to take my Velo there though. It's just too heavy. I'll have a good idea still.

I really didn't want to spend too much on a sub as I spent way more than I had planned to already with my setup.

I'm going to listen to the PB10 and PB12 there. And God forbid I try the Plus subs. No, I don't think I will do that. :(

I think your making a mistake if you don't take your Velo down there with you. For the slight inconvience you will have both subs in the same enviroment with no second guessing about which one performs better.

[Bluesmoke]

I think your making a mistake if you don't take your Velo down there with you. For the slight inconvience you will have both subs in the same enviroment with no second guessing about which one performs better.

I don't have a truck. It won't fit in my car. I was able to borrow my neighbour's van for 5 min to get the Velo (I live across the street from Future Shop). I can't ask him to let me do a 100km trip even if I pay for gas.

In the end I may just keep it. I know I'm probably only getting 30hz+ in my room but its remote operated cool factor and room shaking ability is nice.

Is there a site where I can download quality Mp3s of 20hz or 15hz tones to see how my sub performs?

[billy p]

FYI they may even have some HSU's there?

[furrycute]

Have you considered the opportunity cost of your time making a 100km trip? Not to mention the real possibility of sustaining a serious back injury of moving and hauling that 15 inch sub. And who's going to pay the doctor's bills when you do sustain a back injury? Your SVS buddies on this forum?

And you are having doubts about your initial purchase all based on what? Based on what people on an internet forum tell you of a supposedly super 10 inch sub outrumpeting your 15 inch sub? Have you ever stopped for a minute and considered the possibility that all this hype could be just vaporware?


Suppose people on a car forum keep telling you that a Kia is a superior vehicle to your Toyota Sequoia which you just purchased. Would you be willing to go out on a limb and make a 1,000 km trip and return your Sequoia and purchase a Kia?


This is unbelievable.


I don't have a truck. It won't fit in my car. I was able to borrow my neighbour's van for 5 min to get the Velo (I live across the street from Future Shop). I can't ask him to let me do a 100km trip even if I pay for gas.

In the end I may just keep it. I know I'm probably only getting 30hz+ in my room but its remote operated cool factor and room shaking ability is nice.

Is there a site where I can download quality Mp3s of 20hz or 15hz tones to see how my sub performs?

[Matt34]

I don't have a truck. It won't fit in my car. I was able to borrow my neighbour's van for 5 min to get the Velo (I live across the street from Future Shop). I can't ask him to let me do a 100km trip even if I pay for gas.

In the end I may just keep it. I know I'm probably only getting 30hz+ in my room but its remote operated cool factor and room shaking ability is nice.

Is there a site where I can download quality Mp3s of 20hz or 15hz tones to see how my sub performs?

Regardless of what Furrycute thinks we are trying to pull, I am just trying to help. It sounded to me you weren't incredible happy with the performance of your new Velo hence my recommendation to take it to the SVS shop and do a side by side comparison and let your own ears be the judge.
I was not aware that the store was 60 miles away or of your transportation constraints.


Furrycute,

Your blinding hatred for all things ID has really skewed your perception of what myself and IMO others are trying to accomplish in this thread and that is finding a product, regardless of who makes it, that will suit this gentleman's need.

[annunaki]

Matt34,

A 100km is actually about 62 miles for reference. ;) :D

If he is that unsure about his purchase, doing the comparision will quelch any issues in the back of his head.

[furrycute]

Your blinding hatred for all things ID

Specifically, I have problems with AV123 and SVS's incessant viral internet marketing.

On the other hand, I much prefer HSU, Axiom, Aperion, and other internet direct marketers' much more benign marketing.

[abboudc]

Specifically, I have problems with AV123 and SVS's incessant viral internet marketing.

On the other hand, I much prefer HSU, Axiom, Aperion, and other internet direct marketers' much more benign marketing.

Recommending a product because Company X makes it is dumb.
Recommending against a product because Company X markets it poorly is dumber.

Certainly not buying something because you don't like the company is a completely personal and respectable position. But recommending against a product because of your personal distaste for the company and not the product is a disservice to who you're recommending it to, unless you tell them the reason and let them make up their own mind. The same thing with recommending yet to be released products by a company. How can you recommend something that no one's ever heard?

[furrycute]

When a company is willing to engage in underhanded sales tactics (viral internet marketing), do you still feel comfortable dealing with that company?

If a company is willing to compromise ethics in order to make some quick bucks, it makes you seriously question what else that same company is willing to compromise in order to beef up their bottom line.

[abboudc]

When a company is willing to engage in underhanded sales tactics (viral internet marketing), do you still feel comfortable dealing with that company?

If a company is willing to compromise ethics in order to make some quick bucks, it makes you seriously question what else that same company is willing to compromise in order to beef up their bottom line.

My experience with both companies you mentioned was not the same as yours. I made my decisions on their products mostly by reading independent reviews, so i wasn't exposed to "viral marketing". The products i bought are well-made, performance is good, and were very competitively priced. When i've needed customer service (which i've needed with both companies), it's been excellent.

Forums fanboys, well that's another matter. Both have their rabid fans, and they're just that -- rabid fans. Most industries have them...there are mercedes fanatics, Sony fanatics, and yes, AV123 and SVS fanatics. Whether or not the company caters to them doesn't really affect the quality of the product, performance of the product, or service provided. So in this instance, i have zero problem buying from them.

Now if they were doing something *I* considered morally wrong (clubbing baby seals, burning down the rainforest, etc), then yes, *I* would have a problem. No two people have the same ethics or have exactly the same viewpoint. The original poster asked what was a better performing sub, not what was the most ethical company. FWIW, neither company to me seems "out to make a quick buck" as you suggest. One cross shipped a $250 replacement part, no questions asked, the other is eating the bill on $300+ worth of freight to right a wrong.

The fanboys can get annoying. While there may be a couple "plants", i think the tenacity of the fanbase makes it appear much worse than it actually is. You can't organize stupidity, it has a way of just spreading on its own...

Recommending against a product that you don't have experience with because you don't like the marketing isn't the answer...it makes you as objective as the fanboy blindly recommending the product.

[Bluesmoke]

Ok ok. Let's not turn this into which company has ethics and what not.

The fact of the matter is, in Canada, we don't have many - heck ANY online stores to order Speakers and subs from. The only one is Sonic Boom/ Electronics For Less, which is not too far away.

So realistically, and all Canadians here will agree with me: you either buy a sub from a store or get an SVS from Sonic Boom. That's it! And let's face it, for the money, SVS has ZERO competitors in Canada in terms of price because all other sub brands are ridiculously expensive. HSU used to be the go to sub here, I guess but now they're on clearance here.

I haven't said I am unsatisfied with the sub, it's just that I don't really know what sub-20hz sounds like in my room. It will either be "not a big deal" or "WOW! I can't believe I didn't experience this before" type of reaction.

As far as power and SPL goes, No complaints. The Velo 15" IS a monster. It is loud, and shakes the room well. However, I'm wondering how much I'm missing from movies due to the deep bass limitations of this sub. That was my concern. As I said before, I'm going to try and listen to some SVS to see what the hoopla is about.

[billy p]

Bluesmoke for price you got the Velo don't second guess yourself!! Now if you paid full retail, I would say you could of done better. FWIW this hobby is full of second guessing yourself and it appears your happy with you new sub.

Just my 2 cents, Billy p

[Bluesmoke]

Bluesmoke for price you got the Velo don't second guess yourself!! Now if you paid full retail, I would say you could of done better. FWIW this hobby is full of second guessing yourself and it appears your happy with you new sub.

Just my 2 cents, Billy p

There is NO WAY IN HELL I would pay retail $1000CDN for this sub. For that money, I might as well get the PB12 Plus - which I don't think anyone will argue, is better than the 5000r in every way. But I didn't spend $1000. I don't want to spend $1000. I have a budget of $600 and I got the sub with taxes in for little over $520.

[Sheep]

Have you considered the opportunity cost of your time making a 100km trip? Not to mention the real possibility of sustaining a serious back injury of moving and hauling that 15 inch sub. And who's going to pay the doctor's bills when you do sustain a back injury? Your SVS buddies on this forum?


The Government.

And you are having doubts about your initial purchase all based on what? Based on what people on an internet forum tell you of a supposedly super 10 inch sub outrumpeting your 15 inch sub? Have you ever stopped for a minute and considered the possibility that all this hype could be just vaporware?

Supposedly? I just linked 10 graphs showing the unbiased performance of both subwoofers.


Suppose people on a car forum keep telling you that a Kia is a superior vehicle to your Toyota Sequoia which you just purchased. Would you be willing to go out on a limb and make a 1,000 km trip and return your Sequoia and purchase a Kia?

Who the HELL would want to gas up a Sequoia? Have you ever driven one of those things? They're bigs! Anyone that owns an SUV of that size needs to be castrated with a hot iron stick.

SheepStar

[Sheep]

When a company is willing to engage in underhanded sales tactics (viral internet marketing), do you still feel comfortable dealing with that company?

If a company is willing to compromise ethics in order to make some quick bucks, it makes you seriously question what else that same company is willing to compromise in order to beef up their bottom line.

What marketing? The world of mouth from the happy customers that own the product? Yeah, those sleazy bastards. How dare they please people and offer products that perform well for less then half of the competitions price. There is no God!

SheepStar

[mike c]

What marketing? The world of mouth from the happy customers that own the product? Yeah, those sleazy bastards. How dare they please people and offer products that perform well for less then half of the competitions price. There is no God!

SheepStar

he might be referring to the guerilla marketers. those pretending to be real customers.

[Sheep]

he might be referring to the guerilla marketers. those pretending to be real customers.

Do you have any proof of this?

SheepStar

[mike c]

Do you have any proof of this?

SheepStar

i'm not the one pointing fingers. :D

[Bluesmoke]

Update on the 5000R.

I've just got done doing back to back comparisons with my Energy S10.3. For the S10.3, I raised the receiver's Sub levels 3dbls higher than the Velo to get maximum SPL without getting boomy.

Movies include:

War of the Worlds - Pod emergence scene
Star Wars Ep 2 - Ship Landing
Star Wars Ep 3 - Republican Star Destroyer overhead

All three of these scenes go into the 20hz or so and perhaps below in my room. I put the Energy on top of the Velo as well as in its position.

The most obvious observation: The bass on the 5000R is noticably cleaner and more defined than the 10.3. There's a clarity to the bass that's missing from the 10.3. However, my ears felt like they were going to POP from the low bass of War of the Worlds and the Star Wars scenes with the S10.3. I did not get that feeling AT ALL from the Velodyne. It was loud, and the floor shook like hell, but the feeling of being squeezed to death by the bass wasn't there.

So, it looks like the S10.3 goes lower than the Velo. I'm guessing in my room, somewhere in the 19hz-22hz for the Energy and 25-28hz at best in Jazz setting for the Velo.

So, what do I do? I want the pressure cooker sensation of the S10.3 and the clarity and authority of the Velodyne. Right now, it looks like the Velodyne is going back.

[annunaki]

Looks like you need to save up for the SVS PB-12 or go DIY with an Infinity Kappa Perfect VQ or other linear high output driver and quality amplifier.

[mike c]

yep. the velo has a 24hz subsonic filter.

but I would recommend going straight to something that goes even lower and louder than the NSD's. otherwise, a piecemeal upgrade or half step upgrade will cost even more money.

[mouettus]

yep. the velo has a 24hz subsonic filter.

but I would recommend going straight to something that goes even lower and louder than the NSD's. otherwise, a piecemeal upgrade or half step upgrade will cost even more money.

VTF3-MK3 got rave reviews for that. Add a turbo if you want some more extension.

[Bluesmoke]

VTF3-MK3 got rave reviews for that. Add a turbo if you want some more extension.

I don't think there's any dealers in Canada who carry the VTF3 MK3. The one I really want is the PB12 Plus in Piano black. Damn you Warpdrive!!! I'm just going to keep my S10.3 and see if there's any sale at Future Shop for the S10 and then add another one. And try the Dual sub first before selling my S10 for a SVS or HSU.

[Sheep]

I don't think there's any dealers in Canada who carry the VTF3 MK3. The one I really want is the PB12 Plus in Piano black. Damn you Warpdrive!!! I'm just going to keep my S10.3 and see if there's any sale at Future Shop for the S10 and then add another one. And try the Dual sub first before selling my S10 for a SVS or HSU.

Does that mean you're taking the Velodyne back?

SheepStar

[Bluesmoke]

Does that mean you're taking the Velodyne back?

SheepStar

Yea. It's a good sub, but it's an upgrade and downgrade from what I have. I want something that's better than my S10.3 in every way.

[Sheep]

Yea. It's a good sub, but it's an upgrade and downgrade from what I have. I want something that's better than my S10.3 in every way.

Thats odd that you find it boomier. When I auditioned them it was the opposite. I think I'm going to listen to a bunch of speakers tomorrow and post my thoughts.

SheepStar

[Bluesmoke]

More testing with Tool's Anema and 10,000 Days (lots of lows and chest pounding bass). U-571, Blackhawk Down Blu-ray and Pirates 1 Blu-ray.

No contest, the Energy S10.3 definately digs deeper and I was able to discover something - I've had the phase wrong the whole time. In my setup -180 degrees works best. I've had the phase at 0 the whole time. Suddenly, the floors started to shake (not as extreme as the 5000R) but a marked improvement.

Yea, the 5000R is definately going back. I'd stick with the S10 for the time being.

Thanks for all the posts, advice and help from the numerous members here. This is why I love coming here.

[Sheep]

More testing with Tool's Anema and 10,000 Days (lots of lows and chest pounding bass). U-571, Blackhawk Down Blu-ray and Pirates 1 Blu-ray.

No contest, the Energy S10.3 definately digs deeper and I was able to discover something - I've had the phase wrong the whole time. In my setup -180 degrees works best. I've had the phase at 0 the whole time. Suddenly, the floors started to shake (not as extreme as the 5000R) but a marked improvement.

Yea, the 5000R is definately going back. I'd stick with the S10 for the time being.

Thanks for all the posts, advice and help from the numerous members here. This is why I love coming here.

Oh yeah I knew it! I was learning about phase yesterday in school.

SheepStar

[deedubb]

After reading this post, I'm glad I didn't get the Velo. I had ordered 2 during their sale but canceled the order the following day. I'm still undecided as to what to purchase. SonicBoom's prices are so much more than from SVS direct, but they won't deliver to Canada. HSU prices in comparison seem like a bargain, but I've never heard either of them. Similarly, ED prices seem like a bargain in comparison to SVS.

Someone needs to start up a good Canadian online audio store!

[Bluesmoke]

After reading this post, I'm glad I didn't get the Velo. I had ordered 2 during their sale but canceled the order the following day. I'm still undecided as to what to purchase. SonicBoom's prices are so much more than from SVS direct, but they won't deliver to Canada. HSU prices in comparison seem like a bargain, but I've never heard either of them. Similarly, ED prices seem like a bargain in comparison to SVS.

Someone needs to start up a good Canadian online audio store!

Yea, I'm seriously considering the A2 300 from ED. Looking at this chart, I don't want to beleive it for $375US.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/gallery/470_large.jpg

[mouettus]

Someone needs to start up a good Canadian online audio store!

Halleluia!!!

I would already have a HSU VTF3 MKIII if it wasn't the fact that they don't sell them up in Canada.

[Sheep]

Yea, I'm seriously considering the A2 300 from ED. Looking at this chart, I don't want to beleive it for $375US.

http://www.edesignaudio.com/edv2/gallery/470_large.jpg

That graph doesn't have many date points... I would wait for 3rd party measurements (Not Craigsub) and see if they use the standard 24/octave vs that 6/octave.

SheepStar

[annunaki]

I would also question is those are anechoic measurements. Mike C stated that they have posted other graphs as well for the A-750(?) and they were called "power response" graphs. Whatever that means.

The only graphs I like to see are anechoic as they all have the same baseline for judgment. "Ground plane" is a very close second, and "nearfield in-room" a distant third.

[mike c]

the A2-300 graph above is in-room nearfield I think.

the power response graphs are purely theoretical (wishful thinking) :)
i'm trying to get a hold of a PB13 Ultra to see how it does vs. my custom designed ultra killer ... I mean ... A7-450.