Are HD players really worth it?

[westcott]

Well, I decided that prices had fallen far enough to take the HD plunge. This is no small matter because of the format war. So.......... I bought a player for both formats. The Samsung BD-P1200 and the Toshiba HD-XA2. I did not buy them new so I did save myself some money. They both put out a beautiful standard definition picture via regular DVDs. They also put out a gorgeous video picture. But, I just watched the Bourne Ultimatum (HD-DVD) last night, and to be honest, I could not tell that this was an HD picture for 99% of the movie. The other 1%, I really had to struggle to tell the difference. Now, in all fairness, the Planet Earth (HD-DVD) vidoes looked better than what I could get via DishNetwork HD and this series are truly remarkable but one would expect great quality using the latest HD video cameras. On the other hand, film was not much better than SD DVD's.

What makes the investment even more questionable is all the hassles I am going through to find an HDMI switch that will work with all of my components. The first switch I bought failed miserably. I have another on its way from Impact Acoustics but I am not holding my breath. So now I have all the new components sitting on top of my AV credenza (the other half is not too tickeled about this with guests coming for the holidays) so I can access the rear panels to switch out HDMI cables for the different players.

Another real pain is that my first disc I acquired through NetFlix was Pirates of the Caribian: At Worlds End. Well, it got all the way through the preliminary trailers and halted at the talking skull. And, that is as far as it got. It seems I am not the only one with this problem, even with the latest firmware update. Again, in all fairness, the Cars trailer was VERY impressive. It looked like you could pull the car right off the screen. But, this should be expected from a high resolution digital source. Blu-Ray also provided a spectacular standard DVD picture. Lord of the Rings looked really good.

But, once again, my Denon also produced a great standard DVD picture. So much so that I would challenge most people to tell me which DVD was which through the three players on the same source material I have seen so far that is HD.

Lastly, I noticed a big difference in audio quality on concert DVDs between Dolby Digital and Pro Logic II, with the latter, in most cases sounding better. I have read that the drop in LFE is to be expected, but what a pain to have to adjust for every movie and every source. This was not experienced on film based material or on the Planet Earth discs.

I am renting all of my HD material because I see no reason to buy it just to have obsolete material laying around years from now, should one or the other go away. I can justify the hardware purchase because both have awesome SD video processing via Silicon Optix Reon chips.

Maybe I am not giving the formats enough time to see more examples of HD film material but so far, I am really wondering if all the money, time, and continuous troubles is really worth the marginal improvement I see so far. Are Denon's that good or are the quality of transfers really that marginal on HD films?

Does anyone feel the same as I do?

[fmw]

Apparently, most people feel like you do and that's why the HD disc technology is floundering in the marketplace. I think the format war might be over in a year or two with both formats losing to DVD. I have players for both formats as well and they are both for sale. I've watched all the HD movies I want to watch on them.

[ParadigmDawg]

I felt like their wasnt a big difference when I first got a HD player but after a month of watching BD and then trying to go back and watch a SD movie is where I really noticed. Now you cant even get me to watch a SD. If your display is not that big, it will be harder to notice the difference but to me; it is very worth it.

I had the exact sme issue with Pirates of the Caribian: At Worlds End.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I say watch great special effects blockbuster movies on HD players. Watch TV shows & mediocre movies on SD DVD.
HD is definitely worth my money. Not only is the picture great, I love the TrueHD & Uncompressed Audio formats.

[croseiv]

I do plan to acquire one of the combo players early next year (2008), once I've seen how others feel about the new combo players coming out. I will most probably get the new Samsung one. I will rent the movies though.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do plan to acquire one of the combo players early next year (2008), once I've seen how others feel about the new combo players coming out. I will most probably get the new Samsung one. I will rent the movies though.

I was going to buy the Samsung BD-UP5000 for sure until I found out that it could only send DTS-MA via Bitstream.
Damn you, DTS-MA! Damn you to hell!:D

[j_garcia]

Yes, they are.

[croseiv]

I was going to buy the Samsung BD-UP5000 for sure until I found out that it could only send DTS-MA via Bitstream.
Damn you, DTS-MA! Damn you to hell!:D

I guess that's bad?

[j_garcia]

Have you recalibrated your system for the new HD players? I found the Denon 910 to be one of the worst looking progressive players I've ever seen. I noted that my display's calibration levels for my 2900 are VERY different from those of my PS3 or HD-A2, so if you watch HD material with the same calibration settings as your 910 of course the difference will not be apparent.

What Greg said also. Give it some time. Going back after watching a greater number of movies, known for their video quality, the difference in color and sharpness is glaringly apparent to me when I go back to SD DVD. Upscaled, the SD DVDs do look good, but still nowhere near what I am seeing on BD and HD DVD.

[Nomo]

Yes, they are.

Yup.:D
Realistically, I only paid $100 for my A2. So that's a no brainer.
I don't know where the cut-off point would be between worth it of not.

[patnshan]

To the OP, I am surprised you feel the way you do given that you have a similar display to mine. I am highly impressed with the difference in HD and SD on the 100U, thinking it would be similar on your 700. I would recommend getting the HD DVD calibration disc to see if you can improve the picture.

I would echo that some discs are better than others at transfers, the same for SD's. If I watched Arctic Tale or 300 to get my impression if HD media, I'd be disappointed too. I recommend Transformers (good movie, audio, and transfer) or Hot Fuzz (stupid movie, good transfer, good audio) as a good test for what HD media should be.

As for audio, I have heard about the LFE dropouts, but haven't noticed them myself. Maybe my ears are bad:) I do notice a huge difference in True HD and even DD+ vs. audio on SD's. I like to flip back and forth during a movie to see if it is truly different. I know it's not blind, but is strikingly obvious all the same.

My recommendation is to calibrate everything again and give it some time. As for the handshake issues, I feel for you. It must be a royal PITA! I luckily have not had them yet, but I may be needing a switcher soon when I get a new vid card for my HTPC:eek:

Good luck and I hope it works out for you,

Pat

[pmac]

If i read properly. The Toshiba has 2 HD players that are only 1080i the A2 and A3 whereas the A20 and A30 are 1080p. I am not sure why they did this, but I bought an A2 and when I got home realized this, and returned it, and for the exact same $ got the A20.

[westcott]

The Denon 910 can look bad with some digital displays. For that matter, any Faroudjia chipped DVD player can when combined with the right (or wrong display, depending on how you want to look at it). I have had no problems with either my Panasonic displays (AE700u and TH 42PE7U). Even the satellite service guys could not tell it was not an HD player.

No amount of calibration is going to make the picture any sharper (other than turning sharpness all the way down). As I said, video looks better than satellite HD but film based material really is no better than on my Denon. This tells me it is the material, and not the hardware. I do like that both standard DVD video and film looked better on the HD players than my Denon, but I doubt many could tell besides me.

I will give it more time and chalk it up to poor transfers for the few movies I have watched. I will provide more feedback once I have several more under my belt but after shelling out hundreds of dollars on hardware, I am a little underwhelmed.

[MUDSHARK]

I find myself in the camp of the originsl poster. Our set is a 50 inch Samsung DLP(1080i) while the player is the Toshiba model two. I purchased the Harry Potter HD set for my wife for Christmas and we all watched the last one this evening. Besides the twenty glitchs (HDMI via Marantz 4001 receiver) the picture was somewhat underwhelming. I would be hard pressed to distinguish a HD-DVD from the standard DVD. The difference in cable programming versus SD programming is like night and day but not so in the movies. Watching blu-ray movies on the PS#3 has left a similar impression. There is a firmware update that I will try to down-load in the hope that some of the HDMI issues are addressed.

[annunaki]

I have a Toshiba HD-A2 with a Sony KDL-34XBR800. I am running the HDMI out to the set with an HDMI to DVI converter. While I do notice that SD DVD's look very good, there is still a big difference with the HD-DVD player. Not just the picture, but the audio is much, much better.

The depth and detail of the background is much improved with HD-DVD as is the rest of the picture. Many people would most likely be happy with the upconverted image, but it appears a bit soft when comparing to HD-DVD.

[3db]

Have you recalibrated your system for the new HD players? I found the Denon 910 to be one of the worst looking progressive players I've ever seen. I noted that my display's calibration levels for my 2900 are VERY different from those of my PS3 or HD-A2, so if you watch HD material with the same calibration settings as your 910 of course the difference will not be apparent.

What Greg said also. Give it some time. Going back after watching a greater number of movies, known for their video quality, the difference in color and sharpness is glaringly apparent to me when I go back to SD DVD. Upscaled, the SD DVDs do look good, but still nowhere near what I am seeing on BD and HD DVD.

I'm curious, do you think you could tell the difference in a DBT? :eek: :D :D.

Seriously though, if you were able to switch seemlessly between the 2 not knowing which was high def and which wasn't do you think you could tell? I suppose with a big screen it would easier to tell. :)

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I guess that's bad?

It's only bad for me since I don't own a receiver.:D
I need a player that has internal DTS-MA decoders, not bitstream.

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yes, they are.

Yeah, I think HD players are so worth it that if they came out with a Combo Player with Internal Decoders for Both DTS-MA & TrueHD, I WILL BUY IT even though I already own a Panasonic DMP-BD10A and a Toshiba HD-XA1!

[j_garcia]

I'm curious, do you think you could tell the difference in a DBT? :eek: :D :D.

Seriously though, if you were able to switch seemlessly between the 2 not knowing which was high def and which wasn't do you think you could tell? I suppose with a big screen it would easier to tell. :)

I can tell, without question on my small-ish display right now. The difference is very apparent with the better examples on disc. Not all of the new transfers are as noticeable. Example: last night we threw in Pan's Labyrinth on BD. I also own the SE DVD and I have to say other than less grain and better color, it is hard to tell the difference between the the SD and HD. On some other films though, there difference in clarity, detail and color is flat out amazing.

[3db]

I can tell, without question on my small-ish display right now. The difference is very apparent with the better examples on disc. Not all of the new transfers are as noticeable. Example: last night we threw in Pan's Labyrinth on BD. I also own the SE DVD and I have to say other than less grain and better color, it is hard to tell the difference between the the SD and HD. On some other films though, there difference in clarity, detail and color is flat out amazing.

Darn. That brings up another issue. How is one to tell before buying, whether or not, the high def is going to be worth the extra money given that some transfers fare no better than SD.

[patnshan]

Darn. That brings up another issue. How is one to tell before buying, whether or not, the high def is going to be worth the extra money given that some transfers fare no better than SD.

There is a huge thread over at AVS forum where members have rated the transfers for audio and video on a HUGE number of HD discs.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=942015
I still think bad transfers on HD look better than SD.

Pat

[westcott]

I think it also depends on what SD DVD player you were using before. If you had a quality SD DVD player then I think the difference is far less noticeable, even at 100+ inches!!!

If you had a so so DVD player and get an HD player with a quality video processor like the Silicon Optix offering, then I feel that the differences would seem much greater, but not necessarily all attributable to the HD player formats!!!

I just got finished watching Seabisquit on HD DVD and A,B'd it against my own SD DVD version and even with a large screen, I would not want to bet anyone which was which.

As far as audio, the jury is still waiting for a court date. I do not have an AV receiver that supports the new audio standards.

[j_garcia]

Darn. That brings up another issue. How is one to tell before buying, whether or not, the high def is going to be worth the extra money given that some transfers fare no better than SD.

www.highdefdigest.com I don't always agree with the opinions of the movies themselves, but I have found his comments on the video quality to be spot on.

[abefroeman]

Yeah,

Some disks are like wow that is much better. But others, not so much.

I bet if you compared a great DVD like the matrix or LTOR or Star wars to a poor quality HD-DVD, the DVDs would be better. I am sure it has been said before but DVDs and HD-DVDs are just storage devices, sometimes they store crap and sometimes they store great stuff.

[boxinghris]

I think it also depends on what SD DVD player you were using before. If you had a quality SD DVD player then I think the difference is far less noticeable, even at 100+ inches!!!

If you had a so so DVD player and get an HD player with a quality video processor like the Silicon Optix offering, then I feel that the differences would seem much greater, but not necessarily all attributable to the HD player formats!!!

I just got finished watching Seabisquit on HD DVD and A,B'd it against my own SD DVD version and even with a large screen, I would not want to bet anyone which was which.

As far as audio, the jury is still waiting for a court date. I do not have an AV receiver that supports the new audio standards.


Hi Wescott,

I just signed up to these forums to post a message seeing if anyone had compared a good upscaling Denon with a good HD DVD player but your thread has probably provided he information I need.

I own the Denon DVD A1XV (5910) which is possibly the best upscaler out there, and my own exposure to hi-def video via the usual 42" and 50" screens in high street stores has been very underwhelming.

While at Audio/AV Shows I have been very impressed with HD content via projectors on large screens, but on a plasma in the home I'm not sure there will be any appreciable improvement for me and of course the software is scarce, expensive and sometimes glitchy.

One of the best HD DVD players in the UK is apparently the Toshiba HD-XE1 but this costs the equivalent of $900, and of course the newer XE2 with 1080p even more, ad it's probably one of these I'd have to buy to stand any chance of competing with my Denon but from what I've read here I think I'll give it a miss.

Finally, although you don't have a receiver which supports the HD audio formats you probably are aware that you can still get full HD audio resolution if your player has 5.1 analogue outputs and on board processing.

[Joe Schmoe]

Apparently, most people feel like you do and that's why the HD disc technology is floundering in the marketplace. I think the format war might be over in a year or two with both formats losing to DVD. I have players for both formats as well and they are both for sale. I've watched all the HD movies I want to watch on them.

I always laugh at threads titled "Movie X looks/sounds great on Blu Ray!" They could leave off the "...on Blu Ray" part and still have a true statement. It is all about the mastering.

[westcott]

Hi Wescott,

I just signed up to these forums to post a message seeing if anyone had compared a good upscaling Denon with a good HD DVD player but your thread has probably provided the information I need.

I hope my insight has helped. I am all for better video and audio quality but I only thought it fair to share my experience. The cost vs. performance return is not what it should be, IMO.

[gus6464]

Although I must say that Ratatouille on BD has by far the most gorgeous PQ I have ever seen on any high def disc so it really depends on the studio as well.

[westcott]

Although I must say that Ratatouille on BD has by far the most gorgeous PQ I have ever seen on any high def disc so it really depends on the studio as well.

Its in my Netflix Queue!!!

But I would expect an all digital format to look good, as does digital video.


"Cars" was incredible too!!!

[evilkat]

I don't own an HD player, but I do see OVA HD channels, and I have to say I'm addicted to them. To my eyes, the quality difference is substantial and very perceptible. This was most recently illustrated when I bought the DVD version of POC III. I don't know if I didn't have the filters set right on my computer, but when I watched it, it was god-awful horrible on the TV. Insanely noisy transfer...or maybe I'm completely hooked on HD:eek:

[funked up]

I picked up the HD-A3, since it was only $100 bucks when I bought my Panny Plasma(be here on tuesday), gonna see how nice the picture and sound is before I drop any more money on a BD player. I'm sure stepping up to 42" plasma with a HD-DVD player from a 27"SDTV and basic dvd-player is going to blow me away. Atleast I'm really hoping it is.

[Duffinator]

I felt like their wasnt a big difference when I first got a HD player but after a month of watching BD and then trying to go back and watch a SD movie is where I really noticed. Now you cant even get me to watch a SD. If your display is not that big, it will be harder to notice the difference but to me; it is very worth it.This is where I'm at as well. For me there is no going back to SD and I too will probably buy a BD player very soon.

But I also have the same problem with not enough inputs on my AVR or TV (component for me) and will end up changing my ATV to S-video instead of component to free up the third component input on my AVR.

I was given the Planet Earth HD DVD's for Christmas and they look amazing. But just like SD DVD's there are good and not so good transfers in all the formats.