B&W 802 or 803D's with Mcintosh or Mus Fid???

[Matz1]

Guys,

I am going to buy in the next 24 hours either

B&W 802D's
Mcin MC252 Amp or Mus Fidelity A5

or

B&W 803D's
Mcintosh MC 252 or Music Fidelity A5

although I love both of these speakers, I currently own the B&W 804's, I want to upgrade.

I am not sure if the 802's are worth an extra 4K over the 803's, I listened extensively to both of them and the diff are not much IMHO, I also did not hear much of a diff using the Mcintosh amp vs the MF A5 amp, IMHO

Can anyone in our world help push me one way or the other, my teeth are about wore out from the grinding!!

Txs,

Dave

[mike c]

i think the marlan head starts with the 802D ... that to me is worth the price of admission. :)

[mazersteven]

I have never auditioned the 802's. I have spent a considerable amount of time with the 801's, and even more time on several occasions with the 803D's. I love the 803's, and think they are awesome.

I say if you didn't hear much difference. Take the extra cash, and invest in some acoustic treatments and gear.

[ParadigmDawg]

Like Steven said; why would you pay more for one model if you couldnt hear a difference? Since we are talking a good amount of money here; I would get the dealer to let you try both pairs, in your home, so you can really tell what's going on.

[WmAx]

802D is absolutely, without question, worth the upgrade in cost. It moves to an absolute non-resonant cabinet system, which has zero timbre distortion. The 803 has a resonant cabinet, though less resonant than most speakers, is still appreciably resonant, and any resonance bothers me greatly. The 802D is the standard neutral monopole playback monitor at the world's most respected studios, such as Lucasfilm's mixing studio and Abbey Roads. Further more, the 802D, overall, is essentially the best you can get for monopole playback purposes, compared any speaker of any cost. As a benefit of the extreme linearity and zero timbre distortion, I highly recommend using a precision DSP equalizer on the 802D. It will allow you to achieve any desired signature that you so desire -- simply not a possibility with non-linear speakers.

That 'difference' you heard, I would bet, is much related to the cabinet resonance of the 803. It removes realism from playback, as the speaker is applying a sameness coloration to all things played back through them, and masks detail and subtle cues in the source material.

-Chris

[ParadigmDawg]

Each speaker weighs a backbreaking 176 pounds...HOLY COW....

[mazersteven]

802D is absolutely, without question, worth the upgrade in cost. It moves to an absolute non-resonant cabinet system, which has zero timbre distortion. The 803 has a resonant cabinet, -Chris

I will start a new thread if I have to. But how much of this resonants is audible?

[annunaki]

I second the vote for the 802D. The midrange is better on the 802 in my opinion by a slight amount not to mention it plays or appears to play a bit deeper. The midrange difference is mostly due to the non-resonant Marlan head shell that houses the FST midrange. I have had extended listening sessions with the 801 and the 802 and those were a tough choice either way, but it was easy between the 803 and the 802. I would recommend big amplification on either of these. Something with 800 watts rms a channel or so will really bring their dynamic character to life. It allows for totally unclipped headroom.

They like power. The more you feed them the more dynamic they get. One Classe CA-M400 on each channel would be a good start. Lots of dynamic capability there.

I am not sure what your budget is for amplifiers, but you could easily get by and then some with the Crown offerings if it is running a bit low after the speaker purchase. A single Crown XLS802D would work well, or a bridged pair of XLS402D would yield 900W rms at your fingertips.

Just be sure to upgrade the amperage available to your dedicated wall circuits.

If you are feeling saucy, a pair of the XLS802D would work for active biamping (1000 rms per speaker available) or bridged to each speaker for 1,600 watts available to each speaker. You could rest assured you would NEVER have an issue with compressed dynamics. Not to mention it could be done for under $1,700.00 ;)

[mazersteven]

I would recommend big amplification on either of these. Something with 800 watts rms a channel or so will really bring their dynamic character to life. It allows for totally unclipped headroom.



My friends 801's are powered by a 700 watt Krell. :eek: :D

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/mazersteven/FloridaGetTogether3008.jpg

[avaserfi]

I will start a new thread if I have to. But how much of this resonants is audible?

The best source to read would be the article:

The Modification of Timbre by Resonances: Perception and Measurements. J. Audio Eng. Soc. 36, 122-142, 1988 by Toole, Floyd E. and Olive, Sean E.

If you really would like to discuss the topic in depth I suggest you start a new thread as it is a topic who's serious is often is not realized in speaker design and a rather complex issue as a whole.

[annunaki]

My friends 801's are powered by a 700 watt Krell. :eek: :D

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y211/mazersteven/FloridaGetTogether3008.jpg

Good on 'em. That is the way to go with those monsters.

When I listened to them, one of the Audiophools I worked with wanted to run some Lamm Audio 100 watt rms tube amps on the 801's. They were like $8k or more for the pair. Of course his audiophool tendancies were rampant, "Listen to how warm it sounds blah, blah, blah". "They have lots of headroom (supposedly) :rolleyes:". While they sounded good it seemed that they were not "alive" so to speak.

After a week we put a big Classe' 300w x 2 on them. (it is capable of 1000 x 2 at 2 ohms so it has some headroom available!). All I can say is our jaws about hit the floor. It was a completely different speaker. In fact it did not even sound like a speaker at all anymore. It literally felt like you were in the studio with the band. The top end opened up they were very dynamic in the bass region and more. The Audiophool even admitted that it sounded loads better. I asked him what the point of spending over 2x the price on those amplifiers was and he could not give me a straight answer. The store sat on those amps for something like 2 yrs. until he finally found some poor chap who bought into the whole bs and they were sold at a heavy discount. Though he was using them on a pair of 805's so it worked a bit better in that regard.

I feel bad for those people out there with dinky amps on their high end speakers as they won't really know what they have until they get something with some dynamic headroom capability on them. What you don't know can't hurt you I guess.

There is a load of high end goods in that photo. A bit ridiculous even! :D

[WmAx]

I am not sure what your budget is for amplifiers, but you could easily get by and then some with the Crown offerings if it is running a bit low after the speaker purchase. A single Crown XLS802D would work well, or a bridged pair of XLS402D would yield 900W rms at your fingertips.

Behringer EP2500 is a better amplifier; it is constructed far better than Crown XLS amplifiers and nearly on par with the QSC RMX units it is inspired from.

EP2500 will produce a real/measured 450/channel 8 ohms, 650/channel 4 ohms and 1000/channel 2 ohms. 4 ohms bridged yeilds 2000 watts. All very low distortion(<0.1% for the worst case), all both channels driven. Apparently, the EP2500 is class A/B at several hundred watts of operation, and when high power is needed, it goes into a switching mode, called class 'H' by Behringer. A friend of mine has schematics and was describing the operation to me. The amplifier measures a noisefloor of about -110 dB. The only concern may be the fan, which needs to be swapped out for an $8 Panaflo model that is very low noise.

-Chris

[gus6464]

And I was starting to think that the reason studios use the 802D was mostly marketing FUD. Good to know they really are the best speakers ever (I am a B&W fanboy so please disregard that last statement if you wish).

[gus6464]

Behringer EP2500 is a better amplifier; it is constructed far better than Crown XLS amplifiers and nearly on par with the QSC RMX units it is inspired from.

EP2500 will produce a real/measured 450/channel 8 ohms, 650/channel 4 ohms and 1000/channel 2 ohms. 4 ohms bridged yeilds 2000 watts. All very low distortion(<0.1% for the worst case), all both channels driven. Apparently, the EP2500 is class A/B at several hundred watts of operation, and when high power is needed, it goes into a switching mode, called class 'H' by Behringer. A friend of mine has schematics and was describing the operation to me. The amplifier measures a noisefloor of about -110 dB. The only concern may be the fan, which needs to be swapped out for an $8 Panaflo model that is very low noise.

-Chris

So you are saying that there really is no need to buy $10000 worth of Classe monoblocks to power those beasts since $600 worth of EP2500's will do it just as good?

[WmAx]

So you are saying that there really is no need to buy $10000 worth of Classe monoblocks to power those beasts since $600 worth of EP2500's will do it just as good?

Probably. But most people willing to put out for the 802D would want more attractive amplifiers. There is nothing pretty about the Behringers.

-Chris

[gus6464]

Probably. But most people willing to put out for the 802D would want more attractive amplifiers. There is nothing pretty about the Behringers.

-Chris

Yeah I am just picturing in my head going in to the store buy a pair of 802D and when the sales guy starts talking about amps you just tell him you already have 2 amps at home that will power them just as good as the Classe. He will obviously ask what they are and the look on his face when you tell him would be pretty funny.

[annunaki]

Behringer EP2500 is a better amplifier; it is constructed far better than Crown XLS amplifiers and nearly on par with the QSC RMX units it is inspired from.

EP2500 will produce a real/measured 450/channel 8 ohms, 650/channel 4 ohms and 1000/channel 2 ohms. 4 ohms bridged yeilds 2000 watts. All very low distortion(<0.1% for the worst case), all both channels driven. Apparently, the EP2500 is class A/B at several hundred watts of operation, and when high power is needed, it goes into a switching mode, called class 'H' by Behringer. A friend of mine has schematics and was describing the operation to me. The amplifier measures a noisefloor of about -110 dB. The only concern may be the fan, which needs to be swapped out for an $8 Panaflo model that is very low noise.

-Chris

Thanks Chris!

I was looking at the Crowns mainly because they looked better. The Behringer would have been my first choice anyway. It is more or less unbeatable in the $ per watt category.

Get the speakers, hide the amps and enjoy!

An EP2500 in mono on each channel out to do it. ;)

[annunaki]

If looks were really important, buy the EP2500's. Go to the local fabrication shop and have them construct some really nice aluminum & steel chassis for you and have the local eletronics guru slap the innards into the new chasis and put you own esoteric name on them so you can brag to your friends. Even doing this you would still have less cost involved than buying the high end brands, not to mention more power output. You feel proud because it is your own cosmetic design to boot.

You could start you own brand of high end equipment and sell them, to audiophools and recoup the cost of the whole system!:D

[gus6464]

Or just construct a box with the back open and put them inside. Just show off your preamp. Is spending $4000 on a Classe preamp better?

[TLS Guy]

If you can afford it I recommend the 802 D. I have recently auditioned the B & W range with a friend, who ultimately purchased the 800D. We thought the close second to be the 802D not the 801D. You will be delighted with them.
They are at least average sensitivity, 90dB spl (2.83V, 1m). I would think an amp if 400 watts per channel would drive them fine. Since there are two bass drivers the minimum impedance is 3.5 ohms, so make sure the amp will deliver 400 watts to a 4 ohm load.
Enjoy!

[ParadigmDawg]

I tell you what; if I had the money to get 12k speakers then I would have the money to get an expensive amp to go along with it.

[annunaki]

I would not spend the money just because it looks better though. I would simply get a new chasis built for the Behringers or have a mock fascia case done up to hide them behind. Let's see, $4K+ or $1,000 (including custom mock fascia). I would keep the extra $3k and do further investing with it for my kids or do more room treatments etc.

Just because one has the money does not mean they should waste it. ;):)

[ParadigmDawg]

To each his own....I dont need a 1649 HP Pro-mod drag car...but I have one...I would not spend the money just because it looks better though. I would simply get a new chasis built for the Behringers or have a mock fascia case done up to hide them behind. Let's see, $4K+ or $1,000 (including custom mock fascia). I would keep the extra $3k and do further investing with it for my kids or do more room treatments etc.

Just because one has the money does not mean they should waste it. ;):)

[mike c]

mazersteven, there's a dead dog in your pic :)

re: amps ... personally I'd go in between the behringer or pro amps and the classes and krells ... I'd probably use dual RB1092 to bi-amp each channel ... 4k for both. then again, I can't even afford the speakers. maybe one day when I have the space.

[annunaki]

To each his own...

I agree there I guess. There are other things I would spend money on too, if I had it.

I am not saying it was wrong, just that there are a lot of ways to spend money and get the same result.

[PENG]

Last time I listened to the 802D the sales rep powered it with a Musical Fidelity first and then switched to a Bryston 14B SST. He told me to expect a huge difference because of the extra power. I did hear a difference, not huge but enough to say that the extra power did seem to do a better job.

I would definitely go for the Marlan head and the 176 lbs cabinet.

[jaxvon]

For the reasons that WmAx stated, the 802D is a superior speaker. It is used by Alan Parsons in his personal studio, as well as in other top end studios. Also, don't forget to budget for proper room treatment if you want to get the most out of your speakers, as speakers and room acoustics make up the VAST majority of the sound you hear, basically all if you're using transparent electronics and amplifiers that won't clip or introduce audible distortion at the levels you'll be using.

[mazersteven]

have 2 amps at home that will power them just as good as the Classe.

I am not saying that someone would have to get a $10,000 Classe amp to power those speakers. But I will state that I have a hard time believing that the Behringer 2500 is just as good a Classe, Mcintosh, or Krell amp.

I have a hard time believing it would have the reliability, added features, consistency, noise floor, and the ability to perform identically into any potential speaker load

[WmAx]

I am not saying that someone would have to get a $10,000 Classe amp to power those speakers. But I will state that I have a hard time believing that the Behringer 2500 is just as good a Classe, Mcintosh, or Krell amp.

The EP amplifier I have (EP2500) is overall better then the McIntosh MC7544 amplifiers that I had. Better than the Adcom 555 ampliifer I have on some woofers. By better, I mean PCB board quality, load invariability, etc.

I have a hard time believing it would have the reliability, added features, consistency, noise floor, and the ability to perform identically into any potential speaker load

Added features? It is an amplifier. Plain and simple. As for noise floor, it has a measured -110dB noise floor. No noise to be had in proper use/set-up. It remains rock solid down to 2 ohms and nearly doubles power from 4 ohms to 2 ohms, all the while, remaining at very low distortion levels. It has massive current and thermal working range; I can't think of any consumer speaker that it would have the least bit of trouble driving. Though, if you have some strange super low sensitivity speakers(82db/1watt/1M?), perhaps one per channel bridged would be ideal if the speakers can deal with that level of power. As for reliability, the unit uses high quality component parts through out. I'm sure a Krell uses even better parts; but more reliable? This unit is designed to be subjected to intentional electrical and physical abuse. For function alone, it's hard to justify a Krell(or similar). However, for cosmetics and/or pride of ownership, a Krell(or similar) is probably worth while.

BTW, it is rare that some one would pair a pro amp with high end speakers; this I realize. But I do recall at least one person on this forum claiming to use a Behringer EP1500 on B&W801 speakers. The EP1500 is the same amplifier as the EP2500, but the EP2500 has a larger power supply and the added H class switch mode at high power to develop considerably more power into a load.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=131009&postcount=37

-Chris

[highfihoney]

I am not saying that someone would have to get a $10,000 Classe amp to power those speakers. But I will state that I have a hard time believing that the Behringer 2500 is just as good a Classe, Mcintosh, or Krell amp.

I have a hard time believing it would have the reliability, added features, consistency, noise floor, and the ability to perform identically into any potential speaker load

Nothing wrong with the Behringer,decent lil amp for what it is but comparing it against a Mc 252 is nuts,no comparison at all,ive owned 3 Mc 352's so far & i prefered it over the Mc 402,i liked it that much,at low volumes maybe there isnt much difference to be heard but go ahead & drive the crap outta both the Behringer against the Mc 252 & you'll know instantly.

Forget the MF amp,the Mac blows it away on all fronts,buy the Mac & be done with amplification forever.

Heres a pic of 2 of mine.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d91/highfihoney/6c45f36e.jpg

[Matz1]

thanks for everyones help here

I did go with the 802D's and the MF A5 amp, they will be installed tomorrow night and I will post an update

Can't wait!!!

[ParadigmDawg]

Awesome..............

[annunaki]

I am sure you will be thoroughly satisfied! Congrats on your purchase!

[AdrianMills]

It's nice* to see that "big ol' hunkin amp" syndrome is alive and well even at audioholics. Maybe it's just an Americanism?**

I've been tempted to get some 802Ds, hook them up to my Denon 4306 receiver then post the pics on Audio Asylum.

It's a pity they are a little too large for my room.

* Read "very amusing"
** This post is not addressed to anyone in particular.

[Matz1]

Adrian,

They installed my 802D's last night and due to UPS the MF A5 did not make it on time.

I have the Denon 4308 and the sound is fantastic, maybe going from the 804s to the 802D's was diff enough but for what I listened to at my speaker tests and what I hear in my basement is great. I will be getting the MF A5 this Friday and will post a review to let you know if I heard a diff. I am not an audiophile but I LOVE music. My younger brother is a pretty famous Tenor and will be listening with me and he has an amazing gift of hearing.

[AdrianMills]

Adrian,

They installed my 802D's last night and due to UPS the MF A5 did not make it on time.

I have the Denon 4308 and the sound is fantastic, maybe going from the 804s to the 802D's was diff enough but for what I listened to at my speaker tests and what I hear in my basement is great. I will be getting the MF A5 this Friday and will post a review to let you know if I heard a diff. I am not an audiophile but I LOVE music. My younger brother is a pretty famous Tenor and will be listening with me and he has an amazing gift of hearing.
Congratulations on the new arrivals, I'm sure they are really smashing. I've never heard them and deliberately so as I love the look and I'm sure that if they sound as good as people say I'd ignore common sense and squeeze them into my living room somehow. So, I'll just have to put up with my 804S until I can no longer restrain myself. ;)

I've always had issues with people recommending biGGERRR amps just because... well, just because really. This thread started to read like something off Audio Asylum which is a little ironic really.

I'm sure your 802D will sound just as good with your Denon as your A5, in fact I'd bet money on it. Although I'd also put money on the fact that you will "hear" a difference with the new amp too but that difference can be attributed, in all probability, to perceptual bias (think of it as hearing what you’ll expect to hear).

Just so you know, I've witnessed a pair of top of the range JBL Everests ($60K+, each with 2x15" woofers) playing ear splittingly loudly - I mean rock concert levels - off of 2x 2kW McIntosh amps (yes, 4kW in total!) and do you know how much power use they were reporting? The peaks were <40W. Go figure. ;) :D

[highfihoney]

UH oh, There was allmost a report of a difference heard in amplifiers :eek: