Pioneer Elite sounds awesome

[Unregistered]

Just traded my 4 and a half month old Yamaha 1400 for a Pioneer Elite VSX-53TX at Tweeter ($750). The Pioneer blows away the Yamaha, and the Denon AVR3802 I had before the Yammy. Everything sounds great on it, cd's, high-rez discs (I have a Pio DV45-A), dvd's and high def cable. It is lush, full, warm, and gutsy. Compared to it, the Yamaha had a cheesy-sounding midrange, and ear-biting highs. With all due respect, my speakers (DCM TF600's) are a little bright and forward sounding, but with the Pioneer, they sound like really high end speakers. Never before have I just been able to play a cd and sit back and listen without critiquing the sound. Now I can relax and listen to music for hours. Pioneer's new models are just coming out (the one comparable to mine is the 54. Please listen to a Pioneer before buying anything else. By the way, I think it sounds a lot like H/K, but without the reliability problems.

[ericb]

Just want to re-inforce the comments. I have bright detailed speakers as well (Canton Karat M60's) and the warmth of the pionneer VSX 53 can't be matched by anything in that price range and even above. I tried. And I had to be convinced pretty hard to consider pioneer. I tried the Denon 3805, the Yammy and and and. And even against my own will, WOW, I couldn;t resist the pioneer and it came in at a much lower price than the others I was considering. Pioneer should definitely be considered for you guys out there shopping for a receiver... Especially if you have chosed to match it up with bright speakers.

[Falp]

I've been reading great things about Pioneer AVReceivers.

Can you compare them to Marantz? Or NAD? (in sound quality)

[Unregistered]

It is very hard to find a dealer that has NAD and Pioneer, or Marantz and Pioneer, or any combination of any 2. Just go to Tweeter, and listen to the Pioneer. Bring a couple of multichannel high-rez discs, a couple of cd's and a couple of dvd's with you. Be prepared to be blown away with any disc you throw at the Pioneer. You will think you are listening to a $4000 receiver. It's that good.

[rgriffin25]

I too own the Pioneer Elite VSX-53TX. I must say that I am very satisfied with this receiver. Before buying this receiver I was always left wanting more or thinking about which receiver I will buy next. I have owned mine for about 8 months and not once have I considered replacing it. (I suffer from upgrade-itis)
The user interface is very easy to navigate and use. I have also found that the MCACC is easy to use and is pretty accurate. After doing research on other brands I felt that this receiver just had more to offer for the price.

Pioneer has released the VSX-54TX to replace the 53TX. It adds component video upconversion and DPLIIx. If these features aren't important to you this is probably a good time to buy one on clearence.

[dontsleep]

Just traded my 4 and a half month old Yamaha 1400 for a Pioneer Elite VSX-53TX at Tweeter ($750). The Pioneer blows away the Yamaha, and the Denon AVR3802 I had before the Yammy. Everything sounds great on it, cd's, high-rez discs (I have a Pio DV45-A), dvd's and high def cable. It is lush, full, warm, and gutsy. Compared to it, the Yamaha had a cheesy-sounding midrange, and ear-biting highs. With all due respect, my speakers (DCM TF600's) are a little bright and forward sounding, but with the Pioneer, they sound like really high end speakers. Never before have I just been able to play a cd and sit back and listen without critiquing the sound. Now I can relax and listen to music for hours. Pioneer's new models are just coming out (the one comparable to mine is the 54. Please listen to a Pioneer before buying anything else. By the way, I think it sounds a lot like H/K, but without the reliability problems.
What do you think is the reason for "cheesy-sounding midrange and ear biting highs"?
And what do you think is responsible for the pioneer blowing it away?

[Unregistered]

Perhaps the quality of the amps; I read somewhere that mosfet amps behave like vacuum tubes. I always thought that you couldn't have detailed home theater without having bright 2-channel. The Pioneer has convinced me otherwise. Go listen to it.

[dontsleep]

The quality of the amp? Any decent solid state power amp will not add a sound of its own.So unless there was something wrong with your Yamaha,the amp was not to blame for the bad sounds you experienced.

[ericb]

You mention that Pioneer has the new model, VSX54 I am assuming. Do you know when it will be available? Do you know where I can get info on it? Cant seem to find it on the pioneer site.

Thanks,

Eric

[Unregistered]

I just ordered the 54tx last week from www.expressaudiovideo.com for $729 best price I found...just having a hard time waiting for it to get here :)

Does anyone have any recommendations for a good mid priced speaker set up for this reciever? Currently using Infinity Minuette's and a Infinity BU-2 sub.

[photoeye]

Hi,

with the 53tx's MCACC auto calibration,
can u tell the unit first to set the front
speakers to small and not large. Then
continue with the auto calibration?

i have towers with built in subs so they
are not full range large speakers.

would the auto calibration of the 53tx cause
any damage by pumping out full range into
the towers?

still waiting for my 53tx unit to arrive.

thx for your help...

[rgriffin25]

If the MCACC sets your speakers to Large you can go in and manually set them to small once the auto set-up is complete.

[Rip Van Woofer]

Like dontsleep I am always deeply sceptical of claims of audible differences between amps and receivers. Appreciate the comments about ease of use. However, I am also interested in the bass management features/capabilities as I am planning to buy a good receiver and use it mostly as a prepro with outboard amps for my planned DIY biamped front speakers. How'dya like the unit in that regard? I'd been impressed with HK's bass managment features at moderate prices but am still surveying...

[Unregistered]

I just ordered the 54tx last week from www.expressaudiovideo.com for $729 best price I found...just having a hard time waiting for it to get here :)

Actually, one of the best prices from an authorized vendor is from a person listed in one of the message threads at the AVS Forum.

For $792, you can get a 54TX delivered to your home that is from a vendor that is authorized to sell Pioneer gear. Express Audio and Video does not appear to be authorized, so buy at your own risk.

With that being said, my 54TX will be arriving this coming Tuesday. It's going to be one heck of a long, long weekend. :(

[mitch57]

About 6 months ago I auditioned a Pioneer Elite Receiver and the Denon 3805. I don't remember which model the Pioneer was but it was either the top of line model or very close to it. It retailed for around $4000.00. They were setup in the same listening room and I listened to them through a switching device so the salesman could switch back and fourth between the two receivers.

He defeated the tone control on both receivers so they both had the same tone settings which was flat. At the time I was auditioning a pair of Monitor Audio Silver S6s.

There were a couple of other customers in the room auditioning at the same time. The salesman switched from the Pioneer to the Denon several times during the audition.

All of us noticed a substantial difference between the two. The Denon was very crisp and even with detailed bass, mids, and highs. The Pioneer sounded good but lacked bass and seemed to be less detailed. We all agreed that the most noticble difference by far was the sheer lack of bass on the Pioneer.

We also switched to several other speaker lines but the results were the same. We all felt the Pioneer was lacking in comparrison to the Denon. Especially in the bass department.

That's my 2 pennies...

[ericb]

Would be curious how they had them setup though. If the pionneer wasnt configured properly, speaker setting etc. that could of made the difference. I did the same side by side comparison, with the VSX 53tx which is not the top Pioneeer receiver in my basement and did not experience this. The only edge I gave to the denon was it came with more bell and whistles and cooler remote.

[Rob Babcock]

You could pick any two manufacturers out of a hat and have the same comments posted. Some people like Yammies, some like Denon, some Pioneer. You'll never get any agreement. IMOHO, is there's a comparison between similarly priced models and you can hear a significant differernce, then something is likely damaged or improperly set up.

It would be interesting to have a test set up where listeners that claim one sounds vastly better had to pick them apart blindfolded. The results might raise some eyebrows.

[Rip Van Woofer]

IMOHO, is there's a comparison between similarly priced models and you can hear a significant differernce, then something is likely damaged or improperly set up.

It would be interesting to have a test set up where listeners that claim one sounds vastly better had to pick them apart blindfolded. The results might raise some eyebrows.

Amen. To which I will add: if the levels aren't matched to 0.15dB or less the results will mean two things:

1) Diddly.

2) Squat.

...because with even a very slight difference in level (even if it is not perceived as such), the louder one will almost invariably sound "better". This is well established fact, based on extensive research, in audio engineering. It was already well known back in the stone ages (though the numbers mighta changed a bit) when I first got involved in this hobby.

Not a likely scenario in your average audio store showroom.

[mitch57]

Yes indeed! I agree! And that's exactly what we did! We verified before the listening started that all levels on both receivers were the same. We also compenstated for differences in efficiency of each speaker (less efficient speakers required more volume versus more efficient speakers equals less volume).

The salesman then had us turn our backs away from the receivers so we couldn't see which one he was switching from and to. He then had us close our eyes and listen...

He would switch from one receiver to another at about 20 -30 second intervals. During the auditions he would ask us if we noticed any difference between the two and what differences we noticed.

Keep in mind he sells both of these lines (Denon/Pioneer). We, the customers, who had our backs turned and didn't know which receiver was playing at the time, were the ones who said "what happened to the bass?".

We didn't know which receiver was lacking the bass until the salesman told us.

The bottom line is this:

Those were our ears! Your ears are your ears! What sounds good to me/our ears may sound like crap to your ears!

I have come to realize in this industry, which I am a new commer to, that there is nothing more subjective then "Sight and Sound" (Audio/Video). I might think it looks awesome and sounds fantastic. On the other hand, you might think it looks like camel dung and sounds like finger nails clawing a chalk board.

That being said, I suspect that's why there are so many manufactures in this market that manage to stay in business despite the disparity in products. Another factor, of course, is the fact that many of us just don't know how much better it can get.

We think that what we have is fantastic! That is, until we see and hear something that is much better. And then there's those (like my wife) who couldnt tell the difference between the sound coming from a radio out of a cracker jack's box to a $40,000.00 Home Theater system.

To them, if there's noise coming out of the speakers, It sounds great.

To each his/her own!

[b_panther_g]

I’m not an expert, but I do believe the amp could make a difference to the sound.

I don’t think well designed amps sound different IF they are not pushed into clipping. But I believe that people push their amps into clipping a lot more than they realize. Although the amp may only clip for brief moments, it's still audible distortion every time the amp clips.

If someone is listening to dynamic music or watching an action movie, all those peaks and loud passages require a lot more power to reproduce accurately.

BTW – I looked at the specs for the top of the line receivers from Denon and Pioneer. The Denon is a bit more powerful. This might account for some of the differences that mitch57 and the others heard during the demo.

To the person who started this thread – Great job! I’m happy that you found a receiver that works for you. Believe me, I know how frustrating it can be to constantly search for HT components that sound/look right.

Later,
B

[Polkfan]

I've read several articles about electronic modifications that claim to improve the sound of an amplifier. The primary factor seems to be the filter capacitors. Higher quality caps (with higher uF) really seem to add bass and warm up the sound. Also, the Pioneer amp design is a MOSFET system which *may* induce a significant difference in sound compared to other systems. I would think the quality of electronic components used in a system could affect its sound considerably.

The general consensus on many a forum seems to be that if it costs more and has more power, then any amp that displaces a previous amp sounds better. But is that really true? Or is it more along the lines of the person has spent alot of money, so of course it sound better? But I've always thought it was the speakers and room acoustics that affected the sound more than anything else.

This link, while rather technical, is pretty informative:

http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm

And I quote from the article:

"Speaker - Amplifier Interface

Many is the claim that the ear is one of the most finely tuned and sensitive measuring instrument known. I am not going to dispute this - not so that I will not offend anyone (I seem to have done this many times already), but because in some respects it is true. Having said that, I must also point out that although extremely sensitive, the ear (or to be more correct, the brain) is also easily fooled. We can imagine that we can hear things that absolutely do not exist, and can just as easily imagine that one amplifier sounds better than another, only to discover that the reverse is true under different circumstances.

Could it be the influence of speaker cables, or even loudspeakers themselves? This is quite possible, since when amps are reviewed it is generally with the reviewer's favourite speaker and lead combination. This might suit one amplifier perfectly, while the capacitance and inductance of the cable might cause minute instabilities in other otherwise perfectly good amplifiers. Although it a fine theory to suggest that a speaker lead should not affect the performance of a well designed amplifier, there are likely to be some combinations of cable characteristics that simply freak out some amps. Likewise, some amps just might not like the impedance presented by some loudspeakers - this is an area that has been the subject of many studies, and entire amplifiers have been designed specifically to combat these very problems [1]. "

[b_panther_g]

I’ve read that article (http://sound.westhost.com/amp-sound.htm) and agree with a lot of what he says about amps. Here’s a quote from the same article.

“Clipping Distortion

How can one amplifier's clipping distortion sound different from that of another? Most of the hi-fi fraternity will tend to think that clipping is undesirable in any form at any time. While this is undeniably true, many of the amps used in a typical high end setup will be found to be clipping during normal programme sessions. I'm not referring to gross overload - this is quite unmistakable and invariably sounds awful - regardless of the amplifier.

There are subtle differences between the way amplifiers clip, that can make a very great impact on the sound.”

That was what I was referring to in my earlier post.

Here is a quote from another article about amps and clipping (http://www.rane.com/pdf/note128.pdf). It’s from the Rane website.

“Today’s newer higher quality amplifiers have greater dynamic range and sound better when clipped with musical transients than older amplifier designs. So it is more likely for a user to overdrive and clip newer amplifiers on low frequency dynamic peaks because of lower audible distortion. This results in compression of the dynamics of the music. The high frequencies get louder but the low frequencies can’t.

This may be heard as an increase in brightness of the sound. Some may simply interpret it as louder with no change in tonal balance.”

Later,
B

[izub]

Question I got the 54tx also Is the on screen display only applicable to the setup mode? I don't see anything when i change volume, dsp's etc. Did I wire incorrecty? Thanks for any replies.

[rgriffin25]

With my 53TX it is only for the setup, not volume. I am sure it is the same with your model.

Hope this helps.

[hopjohn]

Or is it more along the lines of the person has spent alot of money, so of course it sound better? But I've always thought it was the speakers and room acoustics that affected the sound more than anything else.



I wish more people thought the way you do. Stop and think how many times you'v seen a post asking "Which receiver should I buy?" , and think again how many times have you seen "Which accoustic panels should I buy?"

People need to better educate themselves about room acoustics, which I fully admit is marred by technical confusion, though it needn't be. There are many effective means to improve sound quality in rectangular rooms built with drywall that can be somewhat generalized about, but you rarely see articles about how to go about it.

I think the reason is that it's not a sexy topic. A lot of people would like to think they can compensate for a poor sounding room with better sounding components, a very expensive and ineffective way of going about it.

If anyone knows of any good links to quality reading material that doesn't over complicate the process of acoustically treating a room, I think posting it here would help many, many people.

[Falp]

I heard the Canton Karat M60dc as fronts and S8dc as rears with marantz sr7400 and sounded awesome with any music at any volume level.

I'm considering M30dc fronts, CM40 center and S1 rears.

What do you think of the m30 DC?

[Rip Van Woofer]

If anyone knows of any good links to quality reading material that doesn't over complicate the process of acoustically treating a room, I think posting it here would help many, many people.

Well, the new Acoustics forum here, and the Audioholics articles by Rives on the subject, might be good places to start! :cool:

The book "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest is worth the $28 or so investment. It goes into depth but is still written for laypeople.

Searching the Web for articles will work, but Like every other aspect of audio this area has its share of misinformation and outright snake oil. Caveat lector.

Auralex Acoustics (http://www.auralex.com/) has good articles on the subject on their site. They're mainly aimed at recording studios but can offer insights for home listening rooms. Infinity (http://infinitysystems.com/) has white papers written by Dr. Floyd Toole in .pdf format that are very good and not technical.

Other reputable vendors of acoustic treatment products include:

Echo Busters (http://www.echobusters.com/page1.html)

RPG Inc. (http://www.rpginc.com/)

They may also have helpful info on their sites.

I haven't mentioned Rives because they wrote the Audioholics articles so they're already "known" here.

[Unregistered]

any impressions on 56txi? Vs Marantz 8400>?