New SongTower speakers

[Swerd]

I pulled the trigger today on some new floorstanding speakers. Salk Sound has recently introduced a new speaker, the SongTower QWT (http://www.salksound.com/songtower.shtml). It is a floor standing MTM speaker that combines two excellent Seas CA15RLY 5¼" midwoofers (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=149&products_id=824), and a simply outstanding ¾" dome tweeter, a Hiquophon OWII (http://www.hiquphon.dk/page5.html).

These are the least expensive speakers in the Salk line, but for me, a confirmed DIY guy (or so I thought), these "budget" speakers are the most I would ever consider paying for a commercially made high-end speaker. At $1,500 a pair, I think these speakers have no competition. There will soon be a home theater “Song Series” with a matching center channel, rear channel speakers, and a subwoofer. I hear that they may be announced soon.

Instead of putting these drivers in a sealed or vented cabinet, they come in a transmission line cabinet. Transmission line design, although it has been around for some time, was new to me. This cabinet design has always been said to allow floor standing speakers to exhibit greater bass extension than a vented design would normally allow. But some of these were difficult to build because they involved folded interior chambers. More importantly, a successful transmission line cabinet required trial and error and lot of luck. In contrast, sealed or vented cabinets have been well enough understood since the early 1970s that many plug-in math formulas exist to aid in their design. Until recently no similar method existed to predict or model the bass response of transmission line cabinets. Thanks to the pioneering work of Martin King (http://www.quarter-wave.com/), this is now more easily understood and accomplished. Still, there very few TL cabinet speakers available commercially.

When I first heard the new MTMs, I simply could not believe that two 5¼" woofers could produce such bass. To say that "a transmission line cabinet allows a floor-standing speaker to exhibit greater bass extension than a ported design would normally allow" understates what I experienced. The effortless bass of these speakers seemed to defy the laws of physics. What's more, the sound differed to my ears, from that of either a low-Q sealed woofer or a properly designed ported woofer. Without a better way to describe it, a transmission line produces a third type of bass sound that sounds superior in quality and quantity.

The SongTower’s designer, described this exceptional bass response somewhat better than I can. “Martin King's scientific approach to transmission lines really has made the difference. And the benefits of his work aren't limited to bass quantity and quality. Before Martin King really figured out how to model TL's, this type of bass loading often generated higher order harmonics that severely colored midrange reproduction. That was a complete waste, since a long damped line held out the potential to dissipate the back wave from a woofer and reduce colorations over its operating range. Martin figured out how to achieve the bass benefits of TL loading while eliminating its negative effects in the midrange. As a result, a design that is optimized according to his calculations achieves superior bass and midrange clarity.”

These rather easily driven MTM speakers are flat ± 3 dB from 40 to 20,000 Hz. They have an 8" × 11.5" footprint, and they sound to die for! :D

[Davemcc]

I've only heard a single transmission line speaker, from Role Audio. To be honest, I wasn't impressed with it. But given Salk's reputation and the quality of components and knowledge that go into his speakers, I have little doubt that they are superb. I haven't heard a Salk speaker yet, but I would sure like to.

[Dan]

Well since I was in the room next to Swerd, we heard the same stuff so I'll keep my comments short. I shopped in the $1500-2000/pair range in 2003 and listened to a lot of stuff available in brick and mortar stores (Vandersteen 2ce, Monitor audio silver9, NHT, Meadowlark) and all were missing something or had a noticeable flaw. The Song Towers have none at least for music. The bass is as said very surprising for such small drivers, mid range clear off axis response better than usual for the few MTM designs I've heard. To beat these speakers I think you would have to spend twice as much or more retail. They also are not too demanding on an amplifier which is a nice plus as well. Beautiful woodwork is a Salk given for high WAF.

[Swerd]

I've only heard a single transmission line speaker, from Role Audio. To be honest, I wasn't impressed with it. But given Salk's reputation and the quality of components and knowledge that go into his speakers, I have little doubt that they are superb. I haven't heard a Salk speaker yet, but I would sure like to.The only other TL speaker I've heard was a Meadlowlark Kestrel a number of years ago. Just like you, I wasn't at all impressed. It lacked bass, and it cost about $2500 if I remember correctly.

That may be why I was so impressed with the Songtowers. I also have a pair of bookshelf 2-way speakers made with the same two drivers. It is in a small vented cabinet. (It's a DIY design, made by Dennis Murphy, see CAOW1 below in my signature line.) They produce bass down to about 50 Hz, and then rapidly drop below that. When I first heard ths Songtowers, Dennis used an electronic tone generator to show that they could rattle windows and doors in his house at 38 Hz.

Here is the frequency response curve from 200 to 20,000 Hz.
http://www.salksound.com/gallery/dennismurphy/mtm-fr.gif

Its as flat as I've ever seen. The crossover frequency is about 2600 Hz.

Jim Salk is located just oustide of Detroit, in Oakland, Michigan. That's not too far away for you.

[Swerd]

Hey Dan, thanks for your extra words while I try to convert those who can't hear these speakers.

For all those readers who don't know, Dan & I are brothers, who share an audio addiction.

[Tomorrow]

I have been following some of the doings at Salk for years. (I wonder if they feel 'stalked'?! ;)) Dennis Murphy and Jim Salk make up a pretty terrific team of speaker builders. The birth of the SongTowers is more or less documented over at Audiocircles in the Salk Circle.

Please, Swerd, give us a reasoned and comparative review when you get them set up. (I still think they should have named the speaker Salk Acuity. :)) Congrats, you lucky dawg.

[Davemcc]

Jim Salk is located just oustide of Detroit, in Oakland, Michigan. That's not too far away for you.

I actually placed Salk's Ellis 1801's on my short list of speakers to audition based on size, price, reputation and the quality of finish that I could see in photos. I'm leaving the door open to getting a set of Salks if I ever get the chance to get over for a visit, but there is no rush at this point.

[gus6464]

Is the tweeter on the Salk Veracity line a ribbon tweeter?

[Tomorrow]

Is the tweeter on the Salk Veracity line a ribbon tweeter?

Yes.

http://www.salksound.com/

[Joe Schmoe]

Definitive Technology BP series towers are a transmission line design. The quantity and quality of bass that they put out is utterly incredible for the size of the drivers and cabinets.

[gus6464]

Ahh ok. I was wondering if it is possible for a person to be for a lack of better words "allergic to metal dome tweeters". I have listened to a lot of speakers in recent months and I have always found that all the ones with metal tweeters after serious listening would kind of hurt my ears. It wasn't like searing pain just uncomfortable. On my current speakers I had to turn down the treble on the eq to fix the problem. The only speakers that I could hear that didn't give me that sensation were ones made with ribbon tweeters (Dali Ikon, Mentor) and there doesn't seem to be many manufacturers that use ribbon tweeters. Everyone seems to use some sort of metal.

What are ribbon tweeters made out of?

[avaserfi]

Pretty sure they are generally made from metal ;).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweeter#Ribbon_tweeter

[gus6464]

Pretty sure they are generally made from metal ;).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tweeter#Ribbon_tweeter

Ohh ok hmm that's strange. I wish I could find more brands that use ribbon tweeters so that I could test some more.

[Swerd]

Ohh ok hmm that's strange. I wish I could find more brands that use ribbon tweeters so that I could test some more.We all do :).

Ribbon tweeters are a completely different technology than dome tweeters and most if not all are a lot more expensive.

What were the speakers that bothered your ears. I've found that it is often a metal coned midwoofer, improperly filtered by the crossover network, and not a metal tweeter that was the culprit for listeners' fatique.

[silversurfer]

This is just a generalization, but ribbon tweeters are notorious for thier distortion. To some, this distortion adds something to the sound that is pleasant.

Metal dome tweeters often have ringing at higher frequencies. This ringing may be inaudilble, but still may have an effect on your ears and bother them.

I have not heard any Salks before, but I do admire the cabinet work.

[gus6464]

We all do :).

Ribbon tweeters are a completely different technology than dome tweeters and most if not all are a lot more expensive.

What were the speakers that bothered your ears. I've found that it is often a metal coned midwoofer, improperly filtered by the crossover network, and not a metal tweeter that was the culprit for listeners' fatique.

Let's see the ones that were probably the worst after a while were B&W (only one where it isn't bad is the 800 series), but all these others bothered me after a while as well: Paradigm Studio, PSB Platinum, Mirage Omnisat v2, Vienna Acoustics Haydn, Definitive Technology SM and BP. I've been trying to go and listen to Monitor Audio, Sonus Faber, and Revel but I'm afraid it will just be more of the same.

Why can't there be more ribbon manufacturers!!! :(

[Swerd]

Wow you have been doing some serious searching. That is a long list of disappointments.

Here is an example that I hope shows what I'm trying to say. First is a raw frequency response curve for a good quality 1" metal dome tweeter (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H1147.pdf). Scroll over to the top right of that page and enlarge it to at least 125%. It is pretty smooth from 2 to 20 kHz. Above 20 kHz its a mess, but you would be a dog and not human if your ears could hear that.

Now here is a raw frequency response curve for a good quality 6.5" metal midwoofer (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H1224.pdf). Scroll over to the top right again and enlarge. See those nasty peaks above 6 kHz? Unless they are completely supressed by a steep crossover and maybe also a trap filter, you will hear that noise and think it must be caused by the tweeter. This is not limited to only metal coned midwoofers, I've seen some stiffer Kevlar or carbon fiber woofers with similar problems. Usually paper and other less stiff woofers don't suffer from this kind of problem.

[gus6464]

Wow you have been doing some serious searching. That is a long list of disappointments.

Here is an example that I hope shows what I'm trying to say. First is a raw frequency response curve for a good quality 1" metal dome tweeter (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H1147.pdf). Scroll over to the top right of that page and enlarge it to at least 125%. It is pretty smooth from 2 to 20 kHz. Above 20 kHz its a mess, but you would be a dog and not human if your ears could hear that.

Now here is a raw frequency response curve for a good quality 6.5" metal midwoofer (http://www.madisound.com/catalog/PDF/seas/H1224.pdf). Scroll over to the top right again and enlarge. See those nasty peaks above 6 kHz? Unless they are completely supressed by a steep crossover and maybe also a trap filter, you will hear that noise and think it must be caused by the tweeter. This is not limited to only metal coned midwoofers, I've seen some stiffer Kevlar or carbon fiber woofers with similar problems. Usually paper and other less stiff woofers don't suffer from this kind of problem.

Ok thanks for the great info. So why would you say that the only two speakers I listened to which didn't bother me had ribbon tweeters? There has to be something wrong with me because all those speakers can't have bad crossovers.

[Swerd]

So why would you say that the only two speakers I listened to which didn't bother me had ribbon tweeters?I was only trying to illustrate a point how an insufficiently filtered woofer could make noise at a far higher frequency than its crossover point. In my example, the crossover would probably be around 2 kHz. Many people wrongly assume that a shiney tweeter must sound bright.

It could very well be that you really are sensitive to some unpleasant sound created by metal dome tweeters and not by ribbon tweeters. Do you ever experience the same with fabric dome tweeters?

There has to be something wrong with me because all those speakers can't have bad crossovers.Seriously, you'd be surprised how many commercial speakers skimp on the crossovers.

[gus6464]

I was only trying to illustrate a point how an insufficiently filtered woofer could make noise at a far higher frequency than its crossover point. In my example, the crossover would probably be around 2 kHz. Many people wrongly assume that a shiney tweeter must sound bright.

It could very well be that you really are sensitive to some unpleasant sound created by metal dome tweeters and not by ribbon tweeters. Do you ever experience the same with fabric dome tweeters?

Seriously, you'd be surprised how many commercial speakers skimp on the crossovers.

I just started to get really into home audio, especially 2ch so I don't know which speakers use fabric dome tweeters.

[Kitsum]

I' m close to ordering the SEAS Thor (Zeus) speakers from Zalytron, for about the same price. These are also TL, but with the Excel magnesium 6.5" drivers, and OWII tweeters. Of course better drivers doesn't always mean better sound. Are the Songtowers a better deal? The Thors are a dated but classic design.

[Joe Schmoe]

Pretty sure they are generally made from metal ;).


Oh, the irony. (Pun intended.):)

[Swerd]

I' m close to ordering the SEAS Thor (Zeus) speakers from Zalytron, for about the same price. These are also TL, but with the Excel magnesium 6.5" drivers, and OWII tweeters. Of course better drivers doesn't always mean better sound. Are the Songtowers a better deal? The Thors are a dated but classic design.That would be a very interesting comparison. I couldn't say which might be a better deal. If you have a preference for metal coned woofers over coated paper, you might prefer the Thor, but that is only a guess.

The Thor kit does not use the OWII tweeters, it uses the Seas Millenium T25CF002 tweeters, which are not too shabby. Also, it is a kit, you would probably have to assemble and solder the crossover, and wire and install the drivers. I don't know whether the cabinets from Madisound will be similar in finish to those from Salk. The price is certainly similar.

I haven't heard the Thors, but with those Seas components, a properly designed TL cabinet (it claims -3 dB response at 45 Hz and useable bass below 30 Hz), and the design work of Joseph D'Appolito, it should be excellent.

[satish536]

Good thread

These are the only speakers ive heard with ribbon tweeters.

http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=254

Though i think the tweeter was slight improvement over my infinities silk dome ,these speakers dint please me overall !

i think im so used to colored inexpensive speakers that when i listen to expensive considered to be neutral speakers i find them dull.

[Kitsum]

If you live with a good neutral speaker for a few weeks, you can't go back. It happened to me, now i find most commercial speakers bright and boomy.
;)

[Swerd]

Kitsum

I just reread your post about the Zeus kit. I confused it with the Seas Thor kit. I read about the Thor kit at Madisound, I should have gone to Zalytron's site - my mistake. What is Zalytron's price for the Zeus parts and cabinets? Or are you going to build your own cabinets?

Both kits are MTMs in a TL cabinet that use the same Seas W18 midwoofer. The Zeus uses the Hiquphon ¾" tweeter, and the Thor uses the Seas T25 1" dome tweeter. Just as a guess, I think the smaller dome tweeter might have better dispersion. I've only heard the T25 tweeter once for only a short time, but I am very familiar with the Hiquphon tweeters' sound, and I like it a lot.

Which is a better deal? It depends on price and cabinet quality. I think Salk's cabinets are among the best available, but the SongTowers will have simpler cabinets than other Salk models, and at $1500, they will not have all the finish choices that Salk is so well known for. As a kit, the Zeus offers some savings over the SongTower.

Another thing to consider is cabinet size and footprint. The SongTowers have a rather small footprint, 8" × 11.5", and are about 45" tall. What are the dimensions for the Zeus? It might be larger.

[Swerd]

My new SongTowers now have been made. Jim Salk sent me these photos today. He said the camera flash made the color of the unstained cherry veneer look somewhat lighter than it really appears. They may be ready to ship as soon as Thursday!

[3db]

The only other TL speaker I've heard was a Meadlowlark Kestrel a number of years ago. Just like you, I wasn't at all impressed. It lacked bass, and it cost about $2500 if I remember correctly.

That may be why I was so impressed with the Songtowers. I also have a pair of bookshelf 2-way speakers made with the same two drivers. It is in a small vented cabinet. (It's a DIY design, made by Dennis Murphy, see CAOW1 below in my signature line.) They produce bass down to about 50 Hz, and then rapidly drop below that. When I first heard ths Songtowers, Dennis used an electronic tone generator to show that they could rattle windows and doors in his house at 38 Hz.

Here is the frequency response curve from 200 to 20,000 Hz.
http://www.salksound.com/gallery/dennismurphy/mtm-fr.gif

Its as flat as I've ever seen. The crossover frequency is about 2600 Hz.

Jim Salk is located just oustide of Detroit, in Oakland, Michigan. That's not too far away for you.

and has gotten rave reviews in Home Theater Magazine. Same kind of response from them, can't believe so much bass is possible from one driver so small. I must audition a pair just to see what its all about. I hope I won't get hooked into upgrading!! :D

[ParadigmDawg]

Sweet!!!!!

My new SongTowers now have been made. Jim Salk sent me these photos today. He said the camera flash made the color of the unstained cherry veneer look somewhat lighter than it really appears. They may be ready to ship as soon as Thursday!

[3db]

My new SongTowers now have been made. Jim Salk sent me these photos today. He said the camera flash made the color of the unstained cherry veneer look somewhat lighter than it really appears. They may be ready to ship as soon as Thursday!


have fun!!!

[Tomorrow]

Report Swerd. Report!

If you don't like 'em...I have an offer I'll make ya....;)

[Swerd]

Report Swerd. Report!I'd love to oblige, but they are now being shipped to me. The tracking numbers for the boxes don't yet come up on the DHL tracking site. I guess its too early... I've only looked, oh about a half a dozen times this afternoon :o.

[Swerd]

DHL now says delivery will be Friday, that's tomorrow! I think I have to rehearse my "Hey boss, I'm feeling sick this morning" phonecall :rolleyes:.

For all those who are curious about how these speakers sound, I may be offline for a while, starting tomorrow...;)

[ParadigmDawg]

Go back and read my thread in general AV discussion called "when will Friday come?". Tomorrow is going to be the longest day of your life and the one second you can no longer stand it and have to go to the restroom, is when UPS will be at your house.

[3db]

DHL now says delivery will be Friday, that's tomorrow! I think I have to rehearse my "Hey boss, I'm feeling sick this morning" phonecall :rolleyes:.

For all those who are curious about how these speakers sound, I may be offline for a while, starting tomorrow...;)

and tell him your sick as a dog:eek:

[Swerd]

Go back and read my thread in general AV discussion called "when will Friday come?". Tomorrow is going to be the longest day of your life and the one second you can no longer stand it and have to go to the restroom, is when UPS will be at your house.
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/images/smilies/rotfl.gif

[oldgoalie33]

I'm lucky since I didn't have to wait for delivery...I was able to audition them at Jim's and take them home with me! The SongTowers are (to my ears) just what I wanted in a speaker. They present a wide and deep soundstage and fill the room with sound. Imaging is very good. I've owned some monitors with perhaps a bit more detail and maybe better imaging, but their overall performance is simply outstanding. Bass response is very impressive, and the treble is airy and transparent. Midrange is expressive and clear. All I can say is that I look forward every day to come home from work just to be able to listen to music: they really give me the connection with music that I've been looking for...that's how good they are for me. Overall, probably the best speaker I can recollect owning in almost 40 years of involvement in this audio 'hobby'. BTW..the build quality is AWESOME too!

[Swerd]

Thanks for the comments, and I'm glad to hear how much you enjoy your speakers. By any chance, did you also post under the moniker jd3 on the Salk Audio Circles forum? He bought a pair of STs, with the Honey Locust finish, that Jim had built but never delivered, after listening to them in Jim's shop. He compared STs to some Bud Fried designed speakers that he owned years ago.

Dennis Murphy had earlier commented (http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/index.php?topic=40820.40) how he had worked with transmission line designs in the past, including Bud Fried's 2-ways. He said they were disappointing to him because they suffered from midrange colorations due to back waves from the woofer that were insufficiently damped by that TL design.

Dennis says that mathmatical model devolped by Martin King was key to developing a TL design speaker. It allowed him to "achieve the bass benefits of TL loading while eliminating its negative effects in the midrange."

I'm still waiting this morning for word from the delivery guys.

[oldgoalie33]

Swerd,

Yep, that was me. It's been a long time, but one thing about the Fried's that I remember was how they gave that 'live' feeling in their presentation. If I remember, the cabinets weren't all that great, and they did have some deficiencies, but I'll never forget that sense of presence they offered...the ST's have that same quality.

John

[ParadigmDawg]

Ok Swerd...it is Friday and I am certain you have already looked outside your door 20 times because you thought you heard the UPS truck. It will be a long day but hang in there as your house will be the last stop the truck makes late tonight...

[Swerd]

Greg
Yes, its Friday, and I am now at work! There are several pressing matters I must get off my desk today before I leave.

There are 3 boxes that DHL says they'll deliver today. Two are now with the delivery courrier, and the 3rd is off in DHL land somewhere. I'm going on the assumption that DHL, like UPS or FedEx, usually does all its deliveries to business and commercial sites during working hours, and saves its home deliveries for late in the afternoon or early in the evening. I'm checking the website once an hour.

John
That's a great testimony to how good the SongTowers are, you listened once and bought them immediately. Where you expecting to buy some speakers that day, or did they take you by surprise?

I've heard the prototypes at Dennis Murphy's house 3 times since he first started working on this general design. I was hooked last May, but they didn't become available thru Jim Salk until August.

[oldgoalie33]

Swerd,
Well, Jim told me he had a pair left that weren't yet spoken for, and said I could take this pair if I liked them. I was hoping I'd like how they sounded since it's about a 3 hour drive from my place to Jim's but yes, my intention was to buy them if I liked them. Turns out that wasn't a problem...their sound literally blew me away! The only issue for me was the finish, but Jim said if I got home and my wife didn't like it he would take them back and build me a pair in another finish (where else can you find that kind of customer service!!??). My wife is happy with the honey locust finish though. I actually prefer the piano rosewood pair he built for himself, but my wife doesn't care for it (too dark for her). The cherry finish you're getting is pretty nice too. BTW...Jim told me when I was there he was finishing up 2 more pair...those must have been yours and the pair he built for himself.

John

[ParadigmDawg]

Any trucks in front of your house yet? I sure hope they are in better shape than my Credenza that arrived earlier today!

[ParadigmDawg]

I think Swerd's speakers may have killed him!

[Swerd]

I got two out of three boxes last Friday. One had a speaker and the other had the bases, hardware and grills. The other speaker was somewhere between Michigan and Maryland. I think DHL screwed up :mad:. After learning that DHL doesn't deliver on weekends, I decided I had a choice between pitching a fit and being patient. Patience won.

So I unpacked the speaker, screwed on the base, and played it. It's wonderful, but it was frustrating not being able to hear it in stereo. I'll wait until I can hear them in stereo before I comment on their sound.

I'm extremely impressed with the build and finish quality. The appearance of the veneer is MUCH BETTER than the photos. I'll try to take better pictures myself. The grill frames attach to the front baffle with buried magnets, so when they are not on there is no visible grill mounting hardware.

Also the speaker was extremely well protected for shipping. It was wrapped in two layers of carboard and 1.5" styrofoam board on all six sides.

It's now Monday afternoon. The other speaker arrived today about an hour ago. I had gone home for the delivery (again), but I haven't unpacked it yet. The outer box looked OK, and considering how well the first speaker was packed, this one will be fine. I'll hear them both tonight :D!

[ParadigmDawg]

Awesome; let us know what you think and take a lot of pictures.

I got two out of three boxes last Friday. One had a speaker and the other had the bases, hardware and grills. The other speaker was somewhere between Michigan and Maryland. I think DHL screwed up :mad:. After learning that DHL doesn't deliver on weekends, I decided I had a choice between pitching a fit and being patient. Patience won.

So I unpacked the speaker, screwed on the base, and played it. It's wonderful, but it was frustrating not being able to hear it in stereo. I'll wait until I can hear them in stereo before I comment on their sound.

I'm extremely impressed with the build and finish quality. The appearance of the veneer is MUCH BETTER than the photos. I'll try to take better pictures myself. The grill frames attach to the front baffle with buried magnets, so when they are not on there is no visible grill mounting hardware.

Also the speaker was extremely well protected for shipping. It was wrapped in two layers of carboard and 1.5" styrofoam board on all six sides.

It's now Monday afternoon. The other speaker arrived today about an hour ago. I had gone home for the delivery (again), but I haven't unpacked it yet. The outer box looked OK, and considering how well the first speaker was packed, this one will be fine. I'll hear them both tonight :D!

[oldgoalie33]

Swerd,
Glad you finally got them! I hope you enjoy them as much as I do mine!:D

[Swerd]

I recently took a few photos of my SongTowers. Browse the 10 photos at photobucket (http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c384/drsdr/rich%20salk%20speakers/?action=view&current=Picture001.jpg)

This one is my favorite
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c384/drsdr/rich%20salk%20speakers/Picture005.jpg?t=1191001324

[ParadigmDawg]

Very nice for plywood speakers.


lol...they look great and I bet they sound awesome. Congrats!!!!!!!

I recently took a few photos of my SongTowers. Browse the 10 photos at photobucket (http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c384/drsdr/rich%20salk%20speakers/?action=view&current=Picture001.jpg)

This one is my favorite
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c384/drsdr/rich%20salk%20speakers/Picture005.jpg?t=1191001324