Diminishing Returns

[Cawdor]

I have $2000 in my budget for new right and left speakers.

I'd like to hear your opinions about the how much better $2000 speakers are than $1000 speakers. In other words, are $2000 speakers 50% better than $1000 speakers? 25% better? 10% better? Put differently, is the improvement obvious? Or does it require careful listening?

Although I have just started shopping, I suspect that I am going to purchase speakers from one of the internet direct manufacturers. (Right now it is Ohm or Axiom because custom veneers are available.)

So how much more is the extra $1000 going to buy?

[Haoleb]

Depends on which $1,000 speaker and which $2,000 speaker.

I have the M80's and while I do really like them If I was ready to spend $2000 for a pair I probably would choose something else, Such as Rockets or perhaps paradigm. Or something used. I believe that the Axioms are alot better than many other speakers in their same price range and above but there are of course other speakers on the market that can say the same.

If your going from just an average 1,000 pair speaker to some that are a great value at 2,000 a pair you will probably notice a appreciable difference. Will the more expensive speakers be twice as good? Probably not. But then again it does depend on what you have now and what you think your missing, and what you plan on buying.

[gus6464]

I personally think from the speakers that I have auditioned that diminishing returns exists in a multiplication of 2. So for example if you start with a $1000 speaker it will take $2000 to get a significant increase, then $4000-5000, then 8000-10000, and so on. My best example would be the B&W 800 series line. I have heard all the way up to the 801D and with the 804S as the base I found the 803D to be the next step up with the 801D after that. But then again I think the speaker with the most bang for the buck in that line is the 803D.

[rolyasm]

I have heard $1,000/pair speakers that sound better than $2,000/pair. It is such a subjective thing that I don't think there is any set rule. As Gus said, perhaps within a given makers line, you can see some kind of "step" situation, but there is no way to say that between brands that there is any kind of a pattern. I certainly would never spend an extra grand on a set of speakers just because they were a grand more and I was expecting them to sound "x" amount better. Listen to what you want. If it sounds a lot better, get it. If it doesn't, save the cash.

[eljr]

But then again I think the speaker with the most bang for the buck in that line is the 803D.

But very power hungry. What do you drive them with?
(and I think they are a little above the $2,000 budget ;))

[mazersteven]

My best example would be the B&W 800 series line. I have heard all the way up to the 801D and with the 804S as the base I found the 803D to be the next step up with the 801D after that. But then again I think the speaker with the most bang for the buck in that line is the 803D.

IMO once you get to this caliber of speakers costing over $8000 a pair. The % of diminishing returns is much greater. Meaning I think the sound quality difference between a $8000 pair, and a $12000 pair is very small.

I would almost agree that it doubles on sound quality up to about $5000.

So yes I would say that a $2000 pair of speakers would sound twice as good as a $1000 pair of speakers.

[mazersteven]

But very power hungry. What do you drive them with?
(and I think they are a little above the $2,000 budget ;))

They are $8000 a pair. Awesome :D

[eljr]

They are $8000 a pair. Awesome :D

What amp do you use for them?

[gus6464]

But very power hungry. What do you drive them with?
(and I think they are a little above the $2,000 budget ;))

Well the place I went to had a pretty crazy setup. It was a very large room acoustically treated to hell. They had the 805S, 804S, 803S, 803D, 802D all lined up next to each other with a speaker selector all hooked up to $20000 worth of McIntosh gear and 2 seats right in the sweet spot. So my wife and I just went back and forth between all of them.

The best thing I learned from that experience was how much of a difference acoustic treatments can make. I mean this room was almost as big as my entire apartment and the 805S which are bookshelves had no trouble filling the entire room with sound.

[Tomorrow]

I have a little different take on speaker values. I believe that speaker preference is so subjective that cost is rendered insignificant. It's not unimportant, mind you, just not very significant to what you believe sounds good in a loudspeaker. Certainly quality cabinetry, drivers, and even looks can have a bearing on what most people prefer. What you as an individual prefer is possibly much different, no matter what anyone tells you about speaker values.

I've auditioned many dozens of speakers from 40 bucks a pair up the the many thousands of dollars per speaker. I've A/B switched speaker listening until my ears got tired. But per my preference for their unique sounds, I almost would rank them randomly with regard to cost.

My pair of L/R mains has an MSRP of $1,000. I have heard no speakers I like better that cost less than $5,000 per pair. And though I like those better, it surely is not 5 times better. Not even 1/4 again better. Yes, diminishing returns is at work, and mightily so. But so is my preference for a certain audio presence.

Here's an old thread that has some interesting philosophical posts about loudspeaker quality vs. cost. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22802&highlight=high+upgrade

Happy speaker hunting. IMHO, audition, audition, audition, and don't ask how much it costs unless you find one you simply must have.

[eljr]

Well the place I went to had a pretty crazy setup. It was a very large room acoustically treated to hell. They had the 805S, 804S, 803S, 803D, 802D all lined up next to each other with a speaker selector all hooked up to $20000 worth of McIntosh gear and 2 seats right in the sweet spot. So my wife and I just went back and forth between all of them.

The best thing I learned from that experience was how much of a difference acoustic treatments can make. I mean this room was almost as big as my entire apartment and the 805S which are bookshelves had no trouble filling the entire room with sound.

I think you are right when it comes to room treatments.
I am considering upgrading my system and am not sure if I should upgrade my amps or speakers that's why my interest in what amps people are using with these apeakers. At the price point this thread is asking about I'd go Klipsch. My opinon, the best at $3,000-$4,000 price point.

[Davemcc]

I've heard $8,000 speakers I just didn't like at all (paradigm S8). I did like the 803S that I heard and I think (opinion) that what I have is very similar sounding to those. Although the 803S might in fact be a huge upgrade for me if I heard them in my room, I find that I was pleased with the sound of the 803S in their demo room and find my system equally pleasing to me in my room with very similar qualities between the two. I also think that the Focal.JMLabs Electra 1007be would be an upgrade from my current system based on side by side auditions between my speakers and the Electras, but at 5x the cost. I would find that expense hard to justify when I am very happy with my system.

[mazersteven]

I did like the 803S that I heard and I think (opinion) that what I have is very similar sounding to those.

"Era Design 5 Satellites" :eek::eek::eek:

[mazersteven]

The best thing I learned from that experience was how much of a difference acoustic treatments can make. I mean this room was almost as big as my entire apartment and the 805S which are bookshelves had no trouble filling the entire room with sound.

That had nothing to do with the acoustic treatments.

[gus6464]

That had nothing to do with the acoustic treatments.

How do you figure? I am talking about a room that was around 2500-3000 ft^3. How could 2 bookshelves fill up all that?

[mazersteven]

How do you figure? I am talking about a room that was around 2500-3000 ft^3. How could 2 bookshelves fill up all that?

They could fill the room with sound with no problem. It's how they sound that the room comes into play. But filling the room with sound is no problem.

[mazersteven]

What amp do you use for them?

Between the Bryston

Bryston 4B SST

http://www.bryston.ca/4bsst_m.html

and the (I like this amp better. But it comes down to performance. I would have to listen to the 803D's with it.)

Bryston 14B SST

http://www.bryston.ca/14bsst_m.html

Maybe the Parasound A-21

http://www.parasound.com/halo/a21.php

Or the

McIntosh MC252

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?hid=1&id=14&cat=Power+Amplifiers&prodid=1055&product=MC252

McIntosh MC275

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?hid=1&id=14&cat=Power+Amplifiers&prodid=1093&product=MC275

[silversurfer]

It is about sound quality vs output.

[dorokusai]

I've found diminishing returns at every level of audio in my travels, as well as suprising benefits and/or results. Audio is such a F'd hobby that I often wonder why I ever got involved. I've went from a Cary 306 SACD to my standby Sony CDP-555ES and am able to enjoy it just as much, plus I don't have to get up and change discs anymore. Is it as good as the Cary? IMO, No but that's not really the point. I can listen to my music and that's what matters.

I mean that in the sense that you have to pick your battles based on what you hear or do not, then if you try something new and it actually works or changes the perspective, you're back at square one....so to speak.

That being said, it's fun to experience things, good or bad, new or vintage because that's what you should be doing.

Mark
Polk Audio CS

[emorphien]

I have a little different take on speaker values. I believe that speaker preference is so subjective that cost is rendered insignificant. It's not unimportant, mind you, just not very significant to what you believe sounds good in a loudspeaker. Certainly quality cabinetry, drivers, and even looks can have a bearing on what most people prefer. What you as an individual prefer is possibly much different, no matter what anyone tells you about speaker values.

I've auditioned many dozens of speakers from 40 bucks a pair up the the many thousands of dollars per speaker. I've A/B switched speaker listening until my ears got tired. But per my preference for their unique sounds, I almost would rank them randomly with regard to cost.

My pair of L/R mains has an MSRP of $1,000. I have heard no speakers I like better that cost less than $5,000 per pair. And though I like those better, it surely is not 5 times better. Not even 1/4 again better. Yes, diminishing returns is at work, and mightily so. But so is my preference for a certain audio presence.

Here's an old thread that has some interesting philosophical posts about loudspeaker quality vs. cost. http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22802&highlight=high+upgrade

Happy speaker hunting. IMHO, audition, audition, audition, and don't ask how much it costs unless you find one you simply must have.
I agree with this. I auditioned a lot before buying the speakers I have. While $1000 was my max budget, I certainly did spend some time enjoying speakers I could never afford, and there were a few speakers which I did like better including some higher end Totem floorstanders but they were 2.5-4x the price and there were others I liked as well for $5000+ but there were also plenty of speakers I auditioned which cost many times more that I didn't like as much.

I've listened to one of the top end Focal Utopia Be speakers and really enjoyed them but I don't know if I'd chose them personally as my favorite. I'm not sure I've found "it" yet. I've also heard a number of Aerials, including their top of the line which I actually did not like. I much preferred some of their less expensive speakers.

[Davemcc]

"Era Design 5 Satellites" :eek::eek::eek:

The system, which includes dual subs, not just the Design 5. And the B&W in their room, which was a large showroom more than a "demo" room vs. my room which is quite small and treated with acoustic panels and bass traps. I found both the B&W and my era system display similar characteristics, each within their own venue, that I find pleasing. Both have full, rich midrange, clear but not overly bright highs and tight yet effortless bass. The B&W probably are, and should be, much better than the era in certain ways. Of all the speakers that I've heard, they are the closest tonal match to what I have, but I doubt the B&W would work in my small space. I count myself lucky that I've found a set of speakers that I like so much that I don't feel the need to upgrade. I was actually listening to the B&W to test the amp that was driving them and went home with the amp.

[eljr]

Between the Bryston

Bryston 4B SST

http://www.bryston.ca/4bsst_m.html

and the (I like this amp better. But it comes down to performance. I would have to listen to the 803D's with it.)

Bryston 14B SST

http://www.bryston.ca/14bsst_m.html

Maybe the Parasound A-21

http://www.parasound.com/halo/a21.php

Or the

McIntosh MC252

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?hid=1&id=14&cat=Power+Amplifiers&prodid=1055&product=MC252

McIntosh MC275

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/mcprod/shopdisplayproducts.asp?hid=1&id=14&cat=Power+Amplifiers&prodid=1093&product=MC275

I think your choice needs to take into account your listening habits. If I had it to do over I think the Bryston 14B SST is clearly what I would do. My reason would be that I like sustained loud music and the heat sinks on the 252 and 501's simply cannot handle this. This seems to be a strong point of the
14B SST. Also, the 803d's benefit from power. They seem insatiable in this regard.