AC-3 is exactly the same as Dolby Digital, Right?

[Seth=L]

So, I was showing a friend of mine my find (Sony DVP-S7000) and we where doing a side by side comparison of his player and mine. It outputs PCM just fine but when I set it to "AC-3 Digital" we get no output. We tried direct on the receiver (Onkyo TX-DS787) as well as regular input. We used Toslink and it did work for PCM as mentioned already.

From what I have read and understand there is no difference between AC-3 and Dolby Digital, Dolby just though that they needed to give it a better name. RF is another story entirely of course, and almost virtually exclusive to Laser Disc, so obviously not part of the issue. We ruled out the receiver as the problem, it works fine with the other DVD player.

So, there is something wrong with the player, or AC-3 is a different animal, or I am missing something (I have scanned through the settings to find the culprit for this error.)

(I have not tried connecting this DVD player via SPDIF to any other receiver, DAC, or processor.)

If there are any details you need to diagnose the problem just ask and I will provide the appropriate information sometime later.

Thanks in advance for any help.:)

[no. 5]

Yep, AC-3 is the 'working title' of Dolby Digital.

history (http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_1a.asp)

[mtrycrafts]

So, I was showing a friend of mine my find (Sony DVP-S7000) and we where doing a side by side comparison of his player and mine. It outputs PCM just fine but when I set it to "AC-3 Digital" we get no output. We tried direct on the receiver (Onkyo TX-DS787) as well as regular input. We used Toslink and it did work for PCM as mentioned already.

From what I have read and understand there is no difference between AC-3 and Dolby Digital, Dolby just though that they needed to give it a better name. RF is another story entirely of course, and almost virtually exclusive to Laser Disc, so obviously not part of the issue. We ruled out the receiver as the problem, it works fine with the other DVD player.

So, there is something wrong with the player, or AC-3 is a different animal, or I am missing something (I have scanned through the settings to find the culprit for this error.)

(I have not tried connecting this DVD player via SPDIF to any other receiver, DAC, or processor.)

If there are any details you need to diagnose the problem just ask and I will provide the appropriate information sometime later.

Thanks in advance for any help.:)


AC3=DD.

AC3 was the early name used, Audio Code 3, 3rd generation of the code.

That 7000 was a robust player, so it may be something we are overlooking here.

[Seth=L]

Ok, so we have ruled out AC-3 being different in any way from Dolby Digital, which doesn't get me much closer to the answer because I was already pretty much convinced that AC-3 was just the name of Dolby Digital before they changed the name. I hope that I am missing something on the player, but I don't think I am. The set-up features are fairly elementry.:cool: So until I find something that caused it I will assume there is something wrong with the player.:(

[Adam]

Seth=L, I doubt that this will be it because you know a lot...but is it set up to output bitstream for AC-3?

[Johnd]

Many ac-3 players of that vintage (late '90's) did not have processors to decode the signal...an external processor was necessary.

Case in point: my Denon DVD-5000. I can play dd through analog cables, but not through optical. Maybe that helps.

[Adam]

Many ac-3 players of that vintage (late '90's) did not have processors to decode the signal...an external processor was necessary.

Case in point: my Denon DVD-5000. I can play dd through analog cables, but not through optical. Maybe that helps.

John, that confuses me. If the player can't decode the signal, wouldn't it then be able to output the bitstream through the optical line but not be able to output an analog signal? Thanks.

[Seth=L]

Maybe I should try the coaxial output instead of the toslink.:)

Adam,

Yes, it is set correctly (AC-3 Digital and PCM are my only options)

[Adam]

Maybe I should try the coaxial output instead of the toslink.:)

I thought of suggesting that, but forgot about it during the walk from the bedroom to the computer. Too early in the morning at the time. ;)

[Johnd]

John, that confuses me. If the player can't decode the signal, wouldn't it then be able to output the bitstream through the optical line but not be able to output an analog signal? Thanks.

Sorry. Let me clarify. I can only play dd by sending the signal to my receiver, and allowing the receiver's processor to decode the signal. An optical (or digital) cable prevents any downstream decoding.

[Adam]

Sorry. Let me clarify. I can only play dd by sending the signal to my receiver, and allowing the receiver's processor to decode the signal. An optical (or digital) cable prevents any downstream decoding.

Okay, I'm off to make more coffee to get my brain started. But, that still doesn't sound right to me. I completely understand the notion that a DVD player wouldn't have a built-in decoder (been there, done that). However, I thought that the digital cables are the only ones that DO allow downstream decoding.

[no. 5]

An optical (or digital) cable prevents any downstream decoding.

The only way anything other than the DVD player could decode Dolby Digital is if it had access to the RAW bitstream from the disc, and the only way to get the RAW bitstream out of the player is to use a digital connection (i.e. S/PDIF).

[Johnd]

Okay, I'm off to make more coffee to get my brain started. But, that still doesn't sound right to me. I completely understand the notion that a DVD player wouldn't have a built-in decoder (been there, done that). However, I thought that the digital cables are the only ones that DO allow downstream decoding.

No, no. I'm the one that needs coffee...a pot of it. Scratch most of what I said.

The issue may simply be that your player lacks the processor...so it becomes a cabling issue.

Adam, good catch. I'm off to get some coffee! :)

[Johnd]

The only way anything other than the DVD player could decode Dolby Digital is if it had access to the RAW bitstream from the disc, and the only way to get the RAW bitstream out of the player is to use a digital connection (i.e. S/PDIF).

Yes, yes, no. 5. Just made the catch. Where in Wisconsin? I'm near brew city.

[no. 5]

A bit north, in Door County. :)

[Johnd]

A bit north, in Door County. :)

Sweeeet. Nice area...away from all the hubbub.

[Johnd]

Wasn’t it a (Dolby AC-3 demodulator) I have many laserdiscs still but no modification to the laserdisc players I own two I think the (Dolby AC-3 demodulator) is still obtainable thou a bit pricy on some sites for a technology that is about 10 to 17 years old.

Perhaps. But any processor, as in an av receiver, will decode the signal on his player. Laser disc? You're a dinosaur! But so am I. I still have my Sony El Casette player from 1979.

[no. 5]

Nice area...away from all the hubbub.

Except for this time of year. :p

[Buckle-meister]

If the player can't decode the signal, wouldn't it then be able to output the bitstream through the optical line but not be able to output an analog signal?

If the player couldn't decode the signal then it would have to send it out digitally, in which case either a digital coaxial or optical digital cable could be used to connect the player to something that could decode the signal.

[Adam]

If the player couldn't decode the signal then it would have to send it out digitally, in which case either a digital coaxial or optical digital cable could be used to connect the player to something that could decode the signal.

Thanks, Robbie. I was just trying to kindly steer John in the right direction. :)

[Buckle-meister]

I was just trying to kindly steer John in the right direction.

I understand completely; John's a lost soul in need of much steering. :D

[Johnd]

I understand completely; John's a lost soul in need of much steering. :D

That's it. Now I'm going to stick my head in the sand!:p

[Johnd]

Thanks, Robbie. I was just trying to kindly steer John in the right direction. :)

And gentle you were...always appreciated.

[Seth=L]

The DVP-S7000 does not decode 5.1 Dolby Digital internally, which I already knew when I bought it. The player has two sets of stereo outputs for analog, both tested working which means the Dolby Digital 2 channel downmix in the player is working. It also has an optical (Toslink) connection which only works for PCM I found out after some testing. Lastly it has a Coaxial Digital connection that works for PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1. So I did finally get it to work.

Now there is a new and much more fun problem. During playback of 5.1 material it sounds and works fine. If I stop playback nothing out of the ordinary happens, but as soon as I hit eject I get a hum quite similar to when you touch a RCA jack's positive head when it is connected to a running receiver, preamp, or amplifier, only at a higher level of output (potentially damaging if at reference levels). The sound continues after the player is powered down, but at a different tone. Once the Player is powered back on and a disc is loaded then the sound stops.

NOTE: The cable is an inexpensive video cable, but it was working fine when connected to another DVD player on the same input on the Onkyo TX-DS787. It seems unlikely that it is the error of the cable or receiver given the circumstances.

So, what do you guys think, should I just take it back and get something else (I am stuck with in store credit at a pawn broker, and it does so happen they have another item that interests me)?

Thanks again fellas, you have been a great help so far (not being sarcastic, signified by the lack of the rolleyes character:D)

[Adam]

I just seems so odd to me that the bitstream would work over the coax but not the optical, seeing as how the optical output is working for PCM (so it's not just completely broken).

Anyway, whether it should be working is irrelevant...it isn't. So, to keep it or not to keep it, you ask? I'd say try another cable first (you probably are doing that now) and see if that clears up the problem, or maybe check the coax connector on the inside of the unit - I've seen your pictures so I know that you've been in there - and see if anything looks loose. If you can't get it to work, and you won't use it for something else (like a CD player), then I'd say take it back if there's something at the shop that you'd like to trade it for. After all, the thing is one nice looking machine, but if you don't use it then it's kinda worthless.

Just my two cents.

[Seth=L]

Well, I think that the optical PCM only is just an early design parameter. Coaxial was around long before Toslink and I don't think that toslink's first implentation was designed to work with all SPDIF specs (it doesn't have the bandwidth capability of Coax, but is still more than enough form raw bitstream data for Dolby and DTS). To top it off, under the coax connection it says AC-3 Digital and then it has a slash and says PCM under the toslink connection (they are right next to each other horizontal). So I figured it was worth a shot to see if this player, which started production in 1997 I believe was as strange as the first high end DVD player should be.:D

The Coax connection is soldered to the board, there is no visible problem with the physical connection to my eye. Maybe it is a ground loop problem.

The thing is, it doesn't seem to have any performance advantage to the Toshiba and I think the Toshiba takes the win in most respects. It has DTS output, it has built in Dolby Digital decoding, it doesn't have problems and reads discs with minimal error (the Sony hasn't binded up yet, but I hear it has problems with some DVDs). The Toshiba has more and cooler features that are less frivilous than the drop down face plate on the Sony, which is cool, but completely unnecessary, IMO.:cool:

I will likely return it, I have never seen anything about the SD-9000 or it's successors breaking down, but I have heard that this Sony player has croaked on a few people and Sony had a reputation for faulty players during this time period (inadequate fuses and such that blow frequently, the hard to replace ones that are hardwired to the board:rolleyes:)

Also, nearly forgot, I have no other way of testing the Digital output on this player right now as I don't have my JVC at my disposal at the moment or any Digital receiver.:(

I do hate to see it go after such a short time, I guess that will be on my to do list on Monday.

Thanks again.

[Adam]

Well, I think that the optical PCM only is just an early design parameter. Coaxial was around long before Toslink and I don't think that toslink's first implentation was designed to work with all SPDIF specs (it doesn't have the bandwidth capability of Coax, but is still more than enough form raw bitstream data for Dolby and DTS). To top it off, under the coax connection it says AC-3 Digital and then it has a slash and says PCM under the toslink connection (they are right next to each other horizontal).

Well, I took a look at your photos again. The coax and optical are both within the "DIGITAL OUT" box, and I'll bet that the"PCM/AC-3 DIGITAL" wording applies to both because I've never seen a unit labeled like that to signify that the two jacks are different (but one of us would probably have to either find another owner or an owner's manual to verify that). A good theory that the optical is just PCM because it's an early player, but I don't think it's correct. I have one of the first second-gen DVD players from Toshiba (also no DTS, with both coax and optical digital outputs), and I hooked it up using optical from day one for Dolby Digital 5.1. Ahh, the good old days. $600 for that Toshiba, no DTS, and it had problems reading the second layer of some discs.

Well, I hope that you enjoy whatever it is that you're getting next! New toys, new toys. Always a good thing.

[Seth=L]

It wouldn't make sense for the Optical to transmit one and not the other, unless there is a circuit error somewhere, but I still find it unlikely in any case that it was ever meant to be used for AC-3, the cirmumstances are to coincidental. So either the player is weird, like any first gen player, or it just has the most odd of problems that are so messed up you would think it wouldn't work at all.:) Either way there is a problem somewhere and you may be right, but to have two different problems seems unlikely.:)

[MDS]

Some early players and receivers used a priority scheme if both optical and coax were hooked up; ie coax is preferred over optical if both are connected or vice-versa.

Could something like that be the issue?

[Adam]

Well, I took a look at your photos again. The coax and optical are both within the "DIGITAL OUT" box, and I'll bet that the"PCM/AC-3 DIGITAL" wording applies to both because I've never seen a unit labeled like that to signify that the two jacks are different (but one of us would probably have to either find another owner or an owner's manual to verify that).

I was right in that both digital connections should output the bitstream. You can find the owner's manual here (http://www.docs.sony.com/release/DVPS7000.PDF).

I didn't read through it all, but you might find something useful in there.

On a side note, I was utterly impressed by how many languages they offered for the menus!

[100r1]

My Satellite FTA box for BEV & DISH outputs Dolby AC-3 ( have to select it in the Audio drop down box on channels that are broadcast) to Toslink optical. My Yamaha RX-V659 Reconizes it as Dolby Digital (sampling rate 48Khz, Channel 3/2/0.1, bitrate 384 kbps). Using Optical in-put on the 659.

[mtrycrafts]

The DVP-S7000 does not decode 5.1 Dolby Digital internally, which I already knew when I bought it. The player has two sets of stereo outputs for analog, both tested working which means the Dolby Digital 2 channel downmix in the player is working. It also has an optical (Toslink) connection which only works for PCM I found out after some testing. Lastly it has a Coaxial Digital connection that works for PCM and Dolby Digital 5.1. So I did finally get it to work.

)

If I remember correctly, that optical may pass the DTS signals. Try it if you have a decoder in the receiver.

[mtrycrafts]

Now there is a new and much more fun problem. During playback of 5.1 material it sounds and works fine. If I stop playback nothing out of the ordinary happens, but as soon as I hit eject I get a hum quite similar to when you touch a RCA jack's positive head when it is connected to a running receiver, preamp, or amplifier, only at a higher level of output (potentially damaging if at reference levels). The sound continues after the player is powered down, but at a different tone. Once the Player is powered back on and a disc is loaded then the sound stops.

NOTE: The cable is an inexpensive video cable, but it was working fine when connected to another DVD player on the same input on the Onkyo TX-DS787. It seems unlikely that it is the error of the cable or receiver given the circumstances.

So, what do you guys think, should I just take it back and get something else (I am stuck with in store credit at a pawn broker, and it does so happen they have another item that interests me)?

Thanks again fellas, you have been a great help so far (not being sarcastic, signified by the lack of the rolleyes character:D)


Try another cable or two in the coax path, even if you only have an audio interconnect. It surely sounds like a lifted shield in your cheap cable.

Do you have cable TV connected somehow, any path, to your setup? If so, unplug the cable TV line at the wall and see if that hum is still there.; let us know the outcome.

[Seth=L]

Well, it is settled I will return the player it has too many problems. It will all work out for the best. I don't need two old school flagships, I am not making a fleet.;)