Anthem or Rotel - PLEASE HELP :)

[BabelFish]

A deal has just been dropped on my lap and I could use some advice:
I am planning on pairing the Amp with the Denon 3808 as the pre pro.

I can get a:
Anthem P2 (325wx2)
Anthem A5 (225wx5)
Rotel 1095 (200wx5)

Look below for my setup:
Please let me know which amp you think would be a better purchase to pair with the denon 3808 :) Thanks a Million! The deal that I have been presented will allow me to get any of these units for around the same price.

[Davemcc]

Definitely the Rotel 1095.

The Anthem P2 is a nice amp, but your center channel deserves the same loving as the L/R's to get a nice balanced sound stage, so I'd look at the multichannel amps.

The Anthem A5 is not 225x5. It is 225x1 or 180x5. http://www.sonicfrontiers.com/HTML/Products/A_Series/Specs/A_Specs.html
For the same money, I think the best choice is the Rotel 1095.

[mike c]

i think the rotel is cheaper too. because the MCA50 is already the same price or more expensive than the rotel.

[p38]

Ive got the rotel 1090 powering studio 100's and a 1095 powering the surrounds. I think that the 1095 would be enough if I had to do it all over again. Rotel will be cheaper in price, the Anthem would probutly hold its value longer. I like the combination of Paradigm and Rotels. Others prefer the Anthems.

[PENG]

I would take the P2 for potentially better stereo enjoyment. The 3808 should have no problem driving the center channel.

[BabelFish]

I can get either of those anthems for the same price as a used rotel...

so does the anthem have a cleaner whatever (class a vs class d) type of thing compared to the rotel or are they in the same class?

[BabelFish]

The Anthem A5 is not 225x5. It is 225x1 or 180x5. http://www.sonicfrontiers.com/HTML/Products/A_Series/Specs/A_Specs.html
For the same money, I think the best choice is the Rotel 1095.

Good catch. I didn't realize that.. maybe I will stick with the rotel then.. Anyone else have any thoughts?

[Adam]

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Just wondering, do you need any of those with the 3808? The rest of the folks here know far better that I do, so I'm just posing the question.

[BabelFish]

Just wondering, do you need any of those with the 3808? The rest of the folks here know far better that I do, so I'm just posing the question.

There are several on this board whose opinions I really respect (WarpDrv, Greg Gable) <$20 is slipped into BabelFish's pocket :)> and have spoken to me about power and Paradigm. The 100s can really eat whatever they are given. WarpDrv powers his with a Rotel 1095 and it sounds wonderful. I know that the 3808 is rated at 130x7 and that rating was with all channels driven (not some cheap trick of 130x2 in all reality) from what I have been told but it is better to remove the "pressure" of powering the fronts & center (or all speakers for that matter) from the Receiver then to have it power everything. But I too am a noob here... Anyone care to chime in? :)

[edmcanuck]

I can get a:
Anthem P2 (325wx2)
Anthem A5 (225wx5)
Rotel 1095 (200wx5)

Please let me know which amp you think would be a better purchase to pair with the denon 3808 :)
What on earth makes you think that your 8 Ohm, 91dB Sensitivity speakers cannot be driven to their full potential by the Denon? If you're obsessed with upping the power, a bump up to the 4808 will be cheaper than an external amp and plenty brag-able.

[Davemcc]

Good catch. I didn't realize that.. maybe I will stick with the rotel then.. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Truth be told, I just went through the same process of choosing between Anthem and Rotel two weeks ago.

Here's my thread, if you're interested.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32451

[UFObuster]

What on earth makes you think that your 8 Ohm, 91dB Sensitivity speakers cannot be driven to their full potential by the Denon? If you're obsessed with upping the power, a bump up to the 4808 will be cheaper than an external amp and plenty brag-able.

I've owned some high-quality receivers...last being the Yamaha RX-V2600....130wpc...CES product of the year in '06....fantastic product...but when i added an outboard amp....spearate power supply, better circuitry, etc...it was a "no brainer"....even my wife who has a "tin ear" could tell the difference. If you think that ANY reciever can match outboard amps...no brand names....then you really haven't gotten to hear a good high-end product yet.
No names, no bias......essentially ALL agree on this and the engineering behind it drives this.

[Nick250]

The Studio 100's are efficent speakers, they don't need an external amp. The 3806 will drive just fine and they will sound the same with or without an external amp.

Nick

[UFObuster]

The Studio 100's are efficent speakers, they don't need an external amp. The 3806 will drive just fine and they will sound the same with or without an external amp.

Nick

There may be exceptions to the rule, but I doubt it. On paper, it may work...but nominal impedance in a speaker is only an average across a frequency spectrum. There are usually "holes" in the spectrum that you don't notice without the better dedicated amperage and current available in outboard amps. There are almost always compromises in the internals of a receiver....just the power supply for one....transformers have to be smaller to save space...no torroidals, etc. It's just not in the build scheme to be better than separates. It's a physical thing....and it's also intuitive. Do you really think that 7 channels amplified with processing and tuner out of a 40 pound box is AS good as a 2 channel amp with dedicated power, cooling, circuity, etc is? If you do think this, then you probably haven't heard it.
Bottom line...if receivers such as the 3806 were as good as you say, then there would be no market for the more sophisticated separate amps...but oddly enough, somebody keeps buying them....an illusion? I doubt it...probably better.

[billy p]

I'm not sure of the cost of your new receiver but if your basically going to use it as a preamp then I'd go with separates. IMO any Denon receiver 3...,4... or 5...'s will have excellent SQ reproduction if my speakers need a bit more power then add the 2 channel for the mains. Reading many of these threads on various forums I have come to realized that added power from amps doesn't change your SQ? That primarily comes from your preamp section and if thats what you are looking for then go with separates.

I myself would like to give kudos to more then just two, with no disrespect to Greg or Warpdrv;):D.

[Adam]

Sorry, Babel. I didn't mean to turn this into a "should people use outboard amps or not" thread. I just thought that you (like me sometimes) might be tempted to buy something that you don't need simply because it's a "deal." (Ask Seth=L about that, too. :D)

Sounds like you're doing your research, though. Seems like people who choose to amp like both brands but lean towards the Rotel for your situation. I also respect Warp's opinion, and he's using that amp with similar (or the same?) speakers. It would be great if you could try out the Rotel, listen for yourself, and then return it if you can't tell a difference. I doubt that's possible, though, because you're asking about amps now and the 3808 doesn't come out for while.

Whether you need it or not, that Rotel looks sweet, surely won't make the system sound any worse, and you could probably resell it without much (if any) loss because of the deal that you're getting.

Good luck with your decision.

[BabelFish]

I myself would like to give kudos to more then just two, with no disrespect to Greg or Warpdrv;):D.

lol.. ur right. there are a lot more people.. my post should have had ', etc.' if it didn't. :)

[PENG]

Good catch. I didn't realize that.. maybe I will stick with the rotel then.. Anyone else have any thoughts?

Again, for movies, I doubt too many people could hear much difference between the 3808 plus the Anthem, or the Rotel. On the other hand, your room is not small, assuming you have >=8 ft ceiling. So if your want to make sure you have enough power, go for the P2. I just don't think the Rotel will get you much more power (60% or so) than the Denon.

I know people argue that the fluctuation in impedance of a speaker is one of the reasons why a more powerful amp will improve SQ with more power. I would say in most cases that's not true. Speakers such as the Paradigm Studio series may have "holes", but that's usually still at 4 ohms or higher. Besides, such 'holes' typically don't exist in the current hungry low frequency range. If you spend enough time searching the web you will find some impedance versus frequency curves of many popular speakers. With all due respect, there are people who experienced those no brainer, day and night types of SQ improvement after adding an external amp to mid level recievers such as the Denon 38XX or Yamaha RX-V2X00, but there are also many people reported marginal or not noticeable differences. You really have to experience it yourself.

I suggested the Anthem mainly because it will give you much more power for the front channels, the increase in power is significant enough that you won't be able to blame your power amp if you still don't think your Digms are performing at their full potential. If you main interests are movies and/or multichannel music, then the Rotel may be marginally better, but then what a waste to let the 3808's decent amp section unused!

[Nick250]

There may be exceptions to the rule, but I doubt it. On paper, it may work...but nominal impedance in a speaker is only an average across a frequency spectrum. There are usually "holes" in the spectrum that you don't notice without the better dedicated amperage and current available in outboard amps. There are almost always compromises in the internals of a receiver....just the power supply for one....transformers have to be smaller to save space...no torroidals, etc. It's just not in the build scheme to be better than separates. It's a physical thing....and it's also intuitive. Do you really think that 7 channels amplified with processing and tuner out of a 40 pound box is AS good as a 2 channel amp with dedicated power, cooling, circuity, etc is? If you do think this, then you probably haven't heard it.
Bottom line...if receivers such as the 3806 were as good as you say, then there would be no market for the more sophisticated separate amps...but oddly enough, somebody keeps buying them....an illusion? I doubt it...probably better.

I would have to go with illusion or placebo effect. How about $500 speaker wire. People buy them so they must be better. Even their wife and friends notice the difference immediately.

Have you read the infamous the All Channels Driven Fallacy yet?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14222

Nick

[jcPanny]

Also check out the Emotiva Amps. You can get 200 Watts x 7 and a fully balanced design for a comparable price to the models you list.

[ParadigmDawg]

Hey Babel has waited 3 years for this set-up so let him get a big, bad amp to go along with it; his patience has earned him this right!...lol…

Babel,

It’s up to you man; it’s your money so get what you want. Any of those amps will be awesome and will easily drive the Digms. I go back and forth on the whole “do I need to add an amp” question. My very modest AVR is able to push my smaller Digms to unbearable levels but there is just a cool, sexy look to a bad amp and the power never hurts. Do I need an amp…probably not? Will I end up getting an amp…probably?

[UFObuster]

sorry, double post, see next

[UFObuster]

Again, for movies, I doubt too many people could hear much difference between the 3808 plus the Anthem, or the Rotel. On the other hand, your room is not small, assuming you have >=8 ft ceiling. So if your want to make sure you have enough power, go for the P2. I just don't think the Rotel will get you much more power (60% or so) than the Denon.

I know people argue that the fluctuation in impedance of a speaker is one of the reasons why a more powerful amp will improve SQ with more power. I would say in most cases that's not true. Speakers such as the Paradigm Studio series may have "holes", but that's usually still at 4 ohms or higher. Besides, such 'holes' typically don't exist in the current hungry low frequency range. If you spend enough time searching the web you will find some impedance versus frequency curves of many popular speakers. With all due respect, there are people who experienced those no brainer, day and night types of SQ improvement after adding an external amp to mid level recievers such as the Denon 38XX or Yamaha RX-V2X00, but there are also many people reported marginal or not noticeable differences. You really have to experience it yourself.

I suggested the Anthem mainly because it will give you much more power for the front channels, the increase in power is significant enough that you won't be able to blame your power amp if you still don't think your Digms are performing at their full potential. If you main interests are movies and/or multichannel music, then the Rotel may be marginally better, but then what a waste to let the 3808's decent amp section unused!

I should probably qualify everything I've said in that this applies to music specifically. I'm sure that high quality receivers will do fine for movies....highly dynamic...but not necessarily subtle demands on the amps output for linearity. Basically, some people can hear it....some don't. I think it has a lot to do with how much you've actually heard live and especially unamplified instruments....real sound, not digitally compressed, or god-forbid MP3. Or use, for example, the fact that some musicians can hear the sound difference in styles of two similar Martin guitar models with different woods used in the body. This is not imagined. Why do some piano players like the Bosendorfer sound vs the Steinway? Different resonance. Sound spectrum is extremely important...not just absolute frequency response and wattage. This is not an illusion or placebo effect by any means. It is a real, and percievable difference well developed in some people and absent in others. Sadly, most people will always chose "louder" as "better". But, make no mistake, there are real differences in how people hear....a crude example again: some people can't tell the difference in taste between a "jug" wine and a good estate vintage. But don't pretend that the difference isn't there if YOU can't taste it......or in the case of music....hear it.

PS: Anthem vs Rotel...no comment...I don't have a dog in this hunt...I bought Rotel because it is locally available and I could easily test it in home. And it is high quality. I also think Denon is a VERY fine product. The OP might do very well getting 2 channel help and leaving everything else to the receiver. Nothing wrong with quality receivers as pre/pros....some of them are better than dedicated pre/pros...have more features...etc. for a cheaper price.

[BabelFish]

Have you read the infamous the All Channels Driven Fallacy yet?

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14222


Very good read.. hmmmm

[billy p]

Babel I will conclude that there is NO amp or receiver that will do justice to this! ;)
http://www.drtoy.com/images/items/kiddesigns_2002_b.jpg

Good luck, in which ever direction you go!! LOL :D

[BabelFish]

Babel I will conclude that there is NO amp or receiver that will do justice to this! ;)
http://www.drtoy.com/images/items/kiddesigns_2002_b.jpg

Good luck, in which ever direction you go!! LOL :D

Lol.. after today.. that signature should be changing :)

[ParadigmDawg]

Hold on there Babel; you may have all your speakers after today but they havent even built your AVR yet!

[BabelFish]

Hold on there Babel; you may have all your speakers after today but they havent even built your AVR yet!

lol.. I know.. they will be taunting me until I can actually play them.. uhg.. I would hook up my current amp into the 100s but the 100s would just laugh and make my Yamaha 35wpc just cry....


"Hey.. wanna see my new speakers???"

"Sure!!! How do they sound???"

"How should I know?? I just asked if you wanted to SEE them.. Geesh!"

[Nick250]

lol.. I know.. they will be taunting me until I can actually play them.. uhg.. I would hook up my current amp into the 100s but the 100s would just laugh and make my Yamaha 35wpc just cry....


"Hey.. wanna see my new speakers???"

"Sure!!! How do they sound???"

"How should I know?? I just asked if you wanted to SEE them.. Geesh!"

You might be surprised how well your 35wpc Yamaha drives your 100's speakers. At normal listening levels the speakers probably are drawing 3 or 4 watts. I say hook them up and have a listen.

Nick