Shame on Bose

[zipper]

I received a mailer from the Good Guys & while flipping through it found what is basically a HTIB from Bose,only it advertises as "an intelligent system that learns your moods & creates custom playlists on the spot to match how you feel.Right. 5 cubes,a sub,& a 48 CD player for $4000!!!
Shame on Bose for preying on the ignorance of the average consumer.You may say that if someone is stupid enough & has enough money to blow on this crud then they deserve it,but I find it insulting for them to put this krap together & try to tell me that it's going to learn what mood I'm in & what I want to listen to. There is going to be a "Bose demo day" in my area in about 3 weeks. I'm going to go there &(probably get arrested or escorted out) try to expose these frauds for what they are. With a tad bit of cooperation from the GG's staff,maybe we can embarass these rats a little.

[Rob Babcock]

It wouldn't take a very smart device to divine my mood if I paid paid that kinda jing & end up with B[l]ose- very miffed, indeed! :D

[gene]

Shame on Bose for preying on the ignorance of the average consumer.You may say that if someone is stupid enough & has enough money to blow on this crud then they deserve it,but I find it insulting for them to put this krap together & try to tell me that it's going to

Zip;

It could be worse you know. Some cable companies enjoy charging in excess of $4k for speaker cables with a battery attached to them. I say shame on the companies that do this, the dealers that promote it, and the consumers whom don't research it enough before buying it!

[annunaki]

The worst thing about it is that some people actually think the systems sound good and then have the audacity to use it as a reference to which all others are judged!!! That whole system, cables, player, speakers, amp, enclosures, ect. probably cost Bose a whopping $400 to manufacture. The drivers in the cubes only cost bose $1.80 a piece!! Unfortunately there are misinformed people out there that will shell out the cash, (as the think Bose is a luxury item like a Cadillac, or Mercedes) and keep the Bose machine rolling. If there is one thing I have noticed in my experience with sales and management, it is that (most) Bose customers are an ignorant breed. (No offense to those who own their products it is your money and your choice. Remember, I said most not all.)

[Polygon]

It is a shame because there was a time when you actually paid for research and development when you bought from Bose. They used to be a very good choice for audio products. Now they are a sham, charging audiophile prices for middle of the line crap and people buy it this crap because of the name behind it. The consumers are partly to blame for not auditioning multiple systems and find what sounds best to them. Instead a lot of them read a magazine article or watch a show that touts Bose equipment and believe what they hear from this biased, Bose funded, garbage. I agree with Gene as well, a lot of cable companies do this and get away with it because they use fancy scientific terms to dupe the average, uninformed, consumer into thinking they have made a physics defying marvel.

However, this happens in a lot of other markets as well. The fact is that there are just dishonest people out there willing to do anything to make a buck.

[gene]

In one defense to Bose. They do have an amazing engineering team and research facility that is top notch. Sadly very little of that research trickles down to their consumer products.

[zipper]

Yes,Gene,it IS a shame. Bigger than I know,probably,because what has really changed about Bose products in the last 10 years?

[Rob Babcock]

Yeah, I think that nowadays most of their research is market research. But I gotta give 'em props; they manage to sell WalMart-level speakers but have somehow convinced the world to pay Saks prices.

[TT-]

If other manufactures have a marketing team rival that of BOSE, they can even sell $#!T for that kind of money. Average consumers aren't well expose to what makes a quality speaker and their over all sound. If they walk into a Bose store, all they see is the flashy plasma, nice pretty little cube that "sound" like a speaker, and a saleman that preach religiously like a Sunday gospel why Bose is superior.

A friend of mine visit my place couple of days ago and he inadvertently said that , "this place would be nice if you got those Bose speakers." I was about to break lose "educate" him on Bose, but I didn't want to ruin the evening. I was going to turn on my Mackie HR824 and let him listen to the difference, but... anyway... I shouldn't burst his bubbles. :)

[annunaki]

You should have let loose on him. People need education and manufacturer's are not going to do that for them...ahem....cough...Bose.... If anything they will fill their heads with disinformation.

We the "audiophiles" need to become proactive if we want our hobby to survive. I saw a piece this morning,on the NBC morning talkshow, about how successful the I Pod and the poor excuse for music we call Mp3 are. And how CDs are not cool anymore. They actually referred to them, and I quote, as " '90's ". Unfortunately, they failed to report on the inferior sound quality and dynamic range of the Mp3s, not to mention the poor signal to noise ratio and low voltage output of the I Pod. We, as audiophiles, who have passion for music, cannot let our hobby be taken from us by media, poor excuses for speaker manufacturers, ect. We cannot let people think Mp3 on a Bose system from their I Pod is reference quality audio reproduction. It is beginning to look as though it will be up to us to make, what has become, our "special intrest group" loud enough for the majority to take notice. So I encourage all of you to try the following: If you see a customer (in the electronics department) in say, a Walmart or Sears or any place else that sells wanna be electronics and speakers, take them aside, play devil's advocate, and educate them. Who knows maybe you will make a new friend, or even start the roots of audiophilism. Maybe you will have prevented them from making a $1500 mistake... that is a Bose acoustimass system.

Sorry for the rant, I am also sorry it (my post) has drifted slightly off topic. I am concerned for the future of true "dynamic, high fidelity" audio sources as well as equipment.

[Gatorchong]

I don't approve of Bose products, but you've got to admit that they have one hell of a business model. None of us wants our friends and neighbors to pay $1200 for a system that can be outdone by Aiwa, especially when we can educate them about it. But you have to face it, Bose sells God knows how many speakers and stereo systems a year, and I would bet that most of the people who buy them take them home, set them up and are overall blissfully ignorant of the glued together crap they have just spent their money on. I think most people are happy with them because I myself have gotten recommendations from people on their Bose systems. I just smile and nod because I know not everybody listens to music the same way I do. So I don't really hate Bose as a company. They make an awful lot of money off their customers, but their customers are happy because they are probably never going to know that they spent $600 on $50 worth of particle board, paper, and plastic. (And some refrigerator magnets). And also, most people I know don't really sit down and listen to music. The stereo is only on when they're cleaning or driving so when my friends ask how much my sound system costs I usually just tell them that they don't want to know. And they usually respond with something like "that thing doesn't even have superwoofers like my JVC." At least in my "circle" (and I'm 22) people who sit down and listen to music on even semi-expensive, good quality audio equipment would probably be considered hobbyists at best. I have spent maybe $2500 on my sound system thus far (which is probably only a fraction of what a lot of others on this site have spent) and my roommates think I'm disturbed. And these are the kind of people who buy Bose. They just don't care that much about how music sounds because they really don't listen or pay that much attention to it. So if you don't really appreciate good music, why does it matter what kind of speakers you have turned on in the background. That's why Bose has so much bank. Maybe if Paradigm opens a store in an outlet mall, makes their speakers cuter and more trendy they can start going to the bank a little more often too. But that's not what Paradigm is about. So to sum up, I don't think Bose is going anywhere. And "Bose Quality," (an oxymoron if I've ever heard one) is so instilled into the minds of most consumers you're probably just going to sound crazy if you try to convince them otherwise. (What do you mean, that jazz musician endorses them???!!!) So unless you really have a need to educate, just let it go. I think there will always be companies and enthusiasts who will be happy to sell us good quality audio equipment so we can feed our desires for it. JMO

[zipper]

Good points Gator. I guess it's really not our business to "save people from Bose" so we shouldn't try unless asked. I,too,have friends who couldn't care less if the music came from Martin Logans or a boom box. But it's just a shame when friends or relatives fall prey to marketing.If they're gonna spend a lot of dough you'd like to see them get their moneys worth.But hey,if they're happy then I guess they got their moneys worth.

[Unregistered]

I first heard Bose speakers in the form of Room-mate powered speakers which i got 2nd hand for 200 bucks when I used to work on a ship in the early 90's. Just the Bose and a portable CD player gave a strong, clear sound. The crewbar on the same ship had a Bose sound system and I remember comparing that to cheap hifi and noticing a palpable difference in the way the music sounded in that little room; transparent.
Having read almost perpetual slagging of Bose product on this and other sites such as audioreview.com, oftentimes people taking a long detour from what they are saying just to give Bose a few good kicks, I am starting to find this snobbery boring and suspect.
Guys, are we sure that Bose hating is not just a symptom of having spent, far, far too much money on hi-fi as a vice, tweaking a sound beyond any human perception and being subsequently jealous of people who aren't similarly trapped and delusional? Or can someone give me a commonly accepted story on what the hell Bose do to screw people as badly as is being maintained? I mean manufacturing, service, spec on the actual sound reproduction....
BTW I don't own any Bose kit, but will be travelling, was considering buying some room-mates again, googled it, and that brought me to you people!
Of course, while we're on the subject, can anyone recommend powered speakers?
Awaiting wierdo flames!

[Gatorchong]

If you go to www.hifi.com, they have some pretty good powered speakers you can travel around with. But to answer your question about the aversion to Bose products that you'll find on audiophile websites I can only speak for myself. What bothers me about Bose is that their company is not devoted to furthering technology in audio reproduction as they claim; they are purely and simply a marketing company. The only thing that they research is how to convince people to purchase $100 worth of old technology and some of the cheapest materials available for 5 to 10 times that price. And yes, this is a hobby and perhaps some may take it too seriously, but that's basically it. Bose sells Hyundai quality at BMW prices. (No offense to those of you who own a Hyundai) So basically they tell people that they are purchasing a good product with millions of dollars of research behind it, when in reality Bose speakers perform dismally at almost every test that humans have come up with to measure loudspeaker performance. If Bose was pricing and representing their speakers similarly to say Sony or KLH you wouldn't hear much about them. But they don't. They claim that their speakers are some of the best, and I call bulls$$t. JMO

[nm2285]

I think this should nicely sum up the position of Bose-haters everywhere:

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

[Unregistered]

Wow.
OK, I'm on board. Many thanks both of you for explaining things to me. I have a new job in London and am anticipating many trips to Richer Sounds ;-)
I'm curious, was there a time when Bose actually had good product? I still maintain the room-mates were fine powered speakers, but that was 12 years ago.

[nm2285]

Bose had to build their reputation on something. Some of it was a decent product back in the day, most of it was great marketing. Their older stuff wasn't bad, however, their technology has barely changed since then. Check out the post I just placed about my visit to a Bose outlet for more bad experiences.

[TT-]

I think this should nicely sum up the position of Bose-haters everywhere:

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

The link was the most informed analysis I've ever read. I've been trying to find something like this to forward to my ignorance friends who're just drooling over BO$E. Thanks!!

[djoxygen]

while we're on the subject, can anyone recommend powered speakers?

If cost was no object, go with Mackie HR series (~$500 each for HR624, ~$650 for 824).

My "other" system, which I've had since college (10+ years) is Acoustic Research AR-somenumber, but was more recently sold by Advent as a "multimedia" speaker, the "Powered Partner 570"

http://www.epinions.com/Advent_AV570_Powered_Partners__Speakers_AV570BLK

They'll blow away your memory of those old Bose Roommates!

[Unregistered]

Thanks for that, Advent eh? I'll check em out.
Its actually for a 2nd system and based on the link posted above by MM, I might get the Henry Kloss model 2. I'll be in London which has some great radio stations, and I can plug my Nomad Zen Xtra in to it. as most of my music will be MP3 / WMA I figure I don't want great speakers as they might show up the relatively cheap encoding (although it is nearly all above 192kbps.
I will have a look at the advents tho, thanks.

[BuddTX]

I have never liked bose.

BUT, I have to say, I know people that have purchased them, and liked them, because they:
1. Had a High Spousal Approval rating
2. The guys were not knowledgable in the alternatives
3.So, their choices were either Bose or nothing.

Now , back to why I "disagree" with the Bose philosophy.

In the 70's and 80's, the back cover of EVERY STEREO REVIEW had the Bose 901's.

The 901's consisted of 9 FULL RANGE DRIVERS, EIGHT of them facing AWAY from the lister, and one facing TOWARDS the listener.

The concept was, according to Bose, that live music is 89% directed, 11% direct. Their speaker placement was trying to recreate this 89/11 ratio.

My argument was, that:
1. The 89/11 concept only applied to live music, not studio and electronic and amplified music such as rock concerts.
2. There are so many variables in a live performance, where you sit, the walls, the ceiling all different in different locations, # of people size of the room, general acouscics, etc, that there could NOT be one single ratio.
3. WHATEVER the direct/reflected ratio, when the sound hit the microphone, the sound was ALREADY at the proper direct/reflected ratio. There should be NO REASON to reflect the sound that was already reflected!

NOW, I am going to give a third opinion, and that is, that there are (and were) untold thousands of people that bought the Bose, and, in their mind, they bought the best speaker in the world, and they were very happy.

Now, while I would like to educate them and let them know that there are better options than Bose, who am I to take away their happiness?

[Unregistered]

Im just glad that someone posted the link about bose, for the most part you can really tell that bose supporters are quite the F#%^&@$ snobs themselves. Most true bose supporting "audiophiles" say that people who hate it have an unrefined undisiplened ear. !CAREFULL! we gots bullsh*ts lyin round! Bose was, has and always will be an advertising market driven company. Bose does not sell audio equitment, just like Ikea doesnt sell reall furniture. They both sell lifestyle accesories, things that one uses to make a statement about themselves. Having actually worked at best buy and delt with overbearing nazi corprate idiots and selling bose to customers I have a feel for the type of person who buys it. Most everyone looks at it, and just says it would be nice to have that some day. I would stop them right there and say, "what if you could have it now for a tenth the price". They just look at me funny and either smile or ask how. Really the only people who actually buy it are snobbish upscale types who dont actually care about watching anything on it. I doubt these people even listen to music. What people get out of bose is security in their place in life. Don't laugh! It my rant and I can say what I want. Bose knows its not really audio equitment, why do you think it doesnt advertise in any audiophile publications. Because it advertises every other possible place, every place that would not have a objective opinion on it. Do you know that actually tried to sue consumer review for giving the acustimass a score of 6? They failed horribly and the case was kicked out, but after that no credible publication will review them, they just dont want to deal with it.
Let people who buy bose alone, its not worth your energy to bash it. Bose is like every other trend. Bose=Hummer, just think of it like that. Bose will be defunct some day dont worry! All empires crumble given a long enough timeline :D. I used to fight it kicking and screaming. I would try to sway anyone and everyone away from bose, because even best buy doesnt make any money off them. Its such a greedy company. They make a 4000 dollar HTitB for 125 dollars. Now thats Greed. The sad fact is not everyone cares about music, or film. Not everyone cares about having a system that can make music the most intimate it can get.
I remember the last day I worked a snobby upscale woman came in and wanted the 2800 dollar system, despite everything I tried she wouldnt budge. I even went as far as just blatently saying this system does not reproduce sound in an accurate or pleasing manner(Last day, no fear of boss :D). It still didnt manner, she didnt give a sh*t about quality. It was about impressing other people who dont care. The kind of people that wouldnt even sit down to listen to a real system if you invited them into your house. Its all about going with the flow, think prolitariate and bourgeoisie.:D

WARNING: RANT OVER

thank god I spelled bourgeoisie right, wheeew

[mustang_steve]

Well I think what's happening is Bose's R&D team are working on prefessional systems, and the home systems get the 40 year trickle-down tech. That way they can build the home stuff chepa, and sell it high while talking about how well known and used their stuff is in the industry, etc.

Also keep in mind a huge amount of R&D is prolly being used up in the autmotive sector. Anytime a speaker maker moves into automotive sound, it will eat up tons of brainpower since a car is the worst possible acoustic environment. It sucks to begin with, and you just can't treat the insides, you have to build the system around the flaws.

I've heard Bose's pro spekaers, and they are actually pretty nice, it's just their home stuff that's crap. They could also use a bit of edumacation on how to make a better car system too. The car systems all seem to have issues with deep, heavy bass....even some disco can make them go nuts....disco....that's over 20 years ago...i know stock sound systems that can play that stuff....

Really I would just go JBL before Bose. At least their products are solid.

[annunaki]

Bose is addressing the problems with deep bass and extreme highs. It is now employing compression circuitry in the head units and/or amplifiers. If you cut that out of the signal now you do not have to use as high of quality speaker to handle dynamics. Those engineers are so smart. :rolleyes:

Any of the newer GM vehicles with Bose systems use these types of compression systems. It is quite easy to notice, even if one does not posess "golden ears".

[mustang_steve]

ugh....nice they took the same approach as I did to makeing spakers when I was 12. Good job Bose, for making the asme poor choices a 12 year old would make.

Good speakers aren't much...a poly woofer is only marginally more. definate thumbs down to them for that.

[Rip Van Woofer]

Ahhh, where would we be without Bose to bash? :D

Here's a gem of a link I posted some time back:

Tips from the Bose Marketing Playbook (http://www.perrymarshall.com/marketing/bose.htm)

And for a good laugh see this one from the same site:

Big A** Fans and the Naked Truth... (http://www.perrymarshall.com/marketing/bigassfans.htm)

Just the product for you tube fans!

[mustang_steve]

hmm why do I have ad-words in only my messages? This is quite odd.

[Unregistered]

The link in the second page didn't work. I want to read it since I want to enlighten myself about BOSE products. I want to learn more. Thank you

[Unregistered]

Bose bashing is an instant credibility buster in my book. It's an instant sign that someone doesn't know what they are talking about. That article people are citing to is retarded from an audio science point of view. If you can't figure out why after reading it for 5 minutes, go buy a clue.

Ever noticed how Bose speakers always rate among the most accurate with Consumer Reports, and relatively low prices for what you get?

Everyone always says Consumers Union was sued by Bose. Well, this is true, and it went to the Supreme Court. Consumer Reports had said the Bose 901 image dnaced along the walls. A Federal District Court, a Federla Appeals Court, and the United States Supreme Court all agreed that when Consumer Reports wrote this they knew it was false. Consumers Union won in the Supreme Court because, although their publisehd statement was false, it was not actionable, because it did not constitute actual malice.

Don't believe me? Read:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/466/485.html

Then again, if you are a Bose basher, you probably don't have the intelllect to understand the article.

[audioscientist]

That article people are citing to is retarded from an audio science point of view.

Talk about an 'instant credibility buster'. Maybe you need to buy yourself a clue. One could be had for far less than the cost of any Bose system.

[Karp]

...Then again, if you are a Bose basher, you probably don't have the intelllect to understand the article.

I read the article, and I believe that I have the "intelllect" to follow it. Bose based their entire case on semantics. They did not deny that the sounds of different instruments in the sound stage were inaccurate. They tried to prove that the exact description of the speaker's inaccuracy was inaccurately described!

Let's face it. Some of the Bose speakers are not TERRIBLE. When the 901's were introduced in 1968, they out-performed many of the speakers of that time. The 201's and 301's sound as good or better than most mid-range speakers that were built in the early 80's. Their acoustic properties are similar to many surround-channel speakers built today by other manufacturers in a sound diffusion perspective. Dr. Bose had some very innovative ideas in the late 60's and early 70's, but if you go out and buy a pair of 301's today, they will sound no different than the 301's of 25 years ago. They have not had an innovative idea (as far as home audio is concerned) since then.

The problem that many of the people in this forum have with Bose is that they use inexpensive (read cheap) parts and charge an arm and a leg for the finished product. They then spend millions on advertising to convince the public that their products are better than they actually are. I am willing to bet that they spent more on researching how to maximize how their speakers sound in their specially designed listening kiosks and showrooms than they did on the speakers themselves.
They do everything they can to avoid direct comparisons of their products with other manufacturer's products in the same listening environment.
They do not advertise the specifications of their products. Do you think that it might be because it would not be in their best interests for anyone to actually have something to compare them to other products?

[Unregistered]

Exactly. Why waste so much vitriol on Bose when the industry is flooded with snake-oil salesmen. It makes no sense.

Zip;

It could be worse you know. Some cable companies enjoy charging in excess of $4k for speaker cables with a battery attached to them. I say shame on the companies that do this, the dealers that promote it, and the consumers whom don't research it enough before buying it!

[Unregistered]

I totaly agree, i just bought a bose triport headset, the sound is great from what I think. The problem was that when I was putting on my headset on my head, the headband just snapped from the adjustment track like a twig. So it is true, the company uses very cheep parts, designed simple yet very cheap designs and you will pay the price for them. Also you cant treat your bose products like u do everything else, your gonna have to treat it like your baby because if u dont, its buy bye bose product.

[JoeE SP9]

If you know someone who is thinking of buying B(l)ose speakers simply have them come over for a listening session after they have heard a B(l)ose demo. I have caused at least two studio owners to dump their 901's after a listening session in my sweet spot. :cool:

[Donkeytits1]

hey read this. its worth a laugh

http://www.pricescan.com/Reviews/ShowReview.asp?itemno=514875&category=Electronics

[InTheIndustry]

Bose bashing is an instant credibility buster in my book. It's an instant sign that someone doesn't know what they are talking about. That article people are citing to is retarded from an audio science point of view. If you can't figure out why after reading it for 5 minutes, go buy a clue.

Ever noticed how Bose speakers always rate among the most accurate with Consumer Reports, and relatively low prices for what you get?

Everyone always says Consumers Union was sued by Bose. Well, this is true, and it went to the Supreme Court. Consumer Reports had said the Bose 901 image dnaced along the walls. A Federal District Court, a Federla Appeals Court, and the United States Supreme Court all agreed that when Consumer Reports wrote this they knew it was false. Consumers Union won in the Supreme Court because, although their publisehd statement was false, it was not actionable, because it did not constitute actual malice.

Don't believe me? Read:

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/466/485.html

Then again, if you are a Bose basher, you probably don't have the intelllect to understand the article.

1. If you can explain to me the "audio science" behind any Bose product I will be shocked. hell, their own marketing reps that sell the product to dealers can't even do it.

2. The fact that you are using a publication to verify your thoughts on audio equipment that also test microwaves, cars, cell phones, laptops, and blenders (sometimes all in the same issue) kills any credibility you had before your post as well as any I would have given you for succeeding in the above mentioned challange entitled "1."

3. I don't have a clue what bringing up a lawsuit that blasts the same orginazation you are also trying to use as a reference point to solidify your argument has to do with your point..... Except to kill it.

4. Most importantly: STFU. You obviously have 0/ZERO experience in the A/V industry. Nor have you A/B'd many Bose products against products in it's price point market space. PS... I have, for years.

[mtrycrafts]

...2. The fact that you are using a publication to verify your thoughts on audio equipment that also test microwaves, cars, cell phones, laptops, and blenders (sometimes all in the same issue) kills any credibility you had before your post as well as any I would have given you for succeeding in the above mentioned challange entitled "1."
.


And your credibility , what little you had, just went out the window with this silly comment. You just have no idea about CU, how they test, nothing. Thanks. Zero credibility.

[JAD2]

I dont get this!!!
You bash the hell outta Bose for whatever your reasonings are.
People go out and buy Bose for whatever reasons, go home, hook them up and are quite happy and run the product til the day it dies or doesnt go with the decor anymore.
So now a bunch of people whom call themselves Audiopiles come along to preach your crap how Bose is inferior and you should buy X.
Hell X according to some are junk also, overpriced etc and Y is better. No Z is better and X is OK while Y is junk and so on. Buy, sell, trade, swap, upgrade, downgrade etc etc etc trying to find that ultimate that is there for some time, but then fads out listening to more crap that said what you had was bad and so on.
Who's the bigger fool, the one who bought Bose, so-called overpaid and was happy and never got caught up in all this crap, or the one that now has a expensive Audio Pile that he isnt sure if it was good or not and just kept looking for better???

[InTheIndustry]

And your credibility , what little you had, just went out the window with this silly comment. You just have no idea about CU, how they test, nothing. Thanks. Zero credibility.

What qualifies you to comment on what I "have no idea about"? Did I state something about consumer reports that was contrary to fact? They do test microwaves, compact cars, cell phones, etc. right?

It's funny, I picture you walking around a Walmart right now with a rolled up Consumer Reports magazine debating on spending the extra $8.00 on the Samsung toaster oven because it got an extra half circle for durrability. It's made my morning.

Consumer Reports is an okay pub for some stuff, but for your audio equipment? Their test samplings are mostly made up of what you find at CC or BB. If that's your scope of thinking when it comes to A/V stuff, well, then I guess you have bigger problems than Consumer Reports being your "Audio Bible". I know their ratings are easy to read, but can't you find a better publication for your information on audio equipment?

[Takeereasy]

I think that you have a point jad2. If people are happy with their Bose setups then leave them be. If anyone asks me I tell them to stay away from the B-word because of the outrageous cost to performance issues, but if someone I know has already bought a set and likes the sound I keep my mouth shut. The only thing I can say in defense of the others in this site is that this is their passion. They are quite right in stating how poorly Bose products stand on their own when copmpared to some products that cost a third as much. You are quite correct in talking about how obsessed the guys on this site are about their audio gear. But to be fair they are posting on an AUDIO website. Everyone on here is either nuts for audio already or is a newbie looking for advice. Do you honestly think that a newbie would best be served by someone telling them to go and get a $4000 Bose setup? For $4000 you can do much, much better, even in the "super-tiny" speaker section.

Sometimes I do get frustrated with equipment bashing, and sometimes I disagree with some of the poster's tastes in speakers, music, gear, etc.. but as long as the advice is well meant and informed I try not to contradict.

I guess my jist is that this is a forum for those passionate about audio or trying to learn more. Neither of those classes of people should be interested in a $4000 underacheiving system IMO.

[rgriffin25]

I think it is silly that there are so many "audio zealots" out there trying to save the mass public from buying over priced products. Don't get me wrong, I have steered my fair share of people away from the little black cubed speakers. How ridiculous would it be if we took this stand in other aspects of life. Here is an example.

Buying generic veggies at the grocery store.
Most times the name brand green beans are three times more expensive than the generic. Does this mean the name brand veggies taste better? Not in my experience. People feel good for buying a name they can recognize even if it costs more.

I have adopted a new approach to this. If people want to spend their money on certain products it's their decision. After all they are the ones that will have to live with it!

[rmongiovi]

It seems to me perfectly reasonable to say that the Bose "direct/reflecting" concept is flawed, and regardless of the price/performance ratio the speakers do not work as the marketing blurb claims.

While it is true that true audio performances have sound that reflect off of the back wall, those reflections are already present in the recording. Adding another layer of reflections, as the Bose 901 does, can only muddy the sound reproduction. Unless you were to buy a close miked version of a performance designed for reproduction on a direct/reflecting speaker system, you wouldn't have any hope whatsoever of creating a realistic soundstage.

[gmichael]

I think it is silly that there are so many "audio zealots" out there trying to save the mass public from buying over priced products. Don't get me wrong, I have steered my fair share of people away from the little black cubed speakers. How ridiculous would it be if we took this stand in other aspects of life. Here is an example.

Buying generic veggies at the grocery store.
Most times the name brand green beans are three times more expensive than the generic. Does this mean the name brand veggies taste better? Not in my experience. People feel good for buying a name they can recognize even if it costs more.

I have adopted a new approach to this. If people want to spend their money on certain products it's their decision. After all they are the ones that will have to live with it!

Maybe if this was a veggie forum you might see this. But it's an audio forum. We talk about audio here. When new members need info on what to buy and what not to buy we like to give them the correct answers.

Takeereasy,
Here here. Good points.

[Sheep]

Maybe if this was a veggie forum you might see this. But it's an audio forum. We talk about audio here. When new members need info on what to buy and what not to buy we like to give them the correct answers.

Takeereasy,
Here here. Good points.

We do? The political and Religious threads have far more posts then the audio ones. Also, when someone like Ventwood0 comes along, we end up treating him like a fool (which he is though). So, we don't always give the correct answers. If depends on the person.

SheepStar

[gmichael]

We do? The political and Religious threads have far more posts then the audio ones. Also, when someone like Ventwood0 comes along, we end up treating him like a fool (which he is though). So, we don't always give the correct answers. If depends on the person.

SheepStar

I'd rather give good advice than bad. But if I were in someone's home and they were telling me how great their Bose system is, I would just listen. Bose is still far better than most Walmart systems that the average Joe would buy.

[Sheep]

I'd rather give good advice than bad. But if I were in someone's home and they were telling me how great their Bose system is, I would just listen. Bose is still far better than most Walmart systems that the average Joe would buy.

Ok, I think you need to leave AverageJoe out of this. :D

SheepStar

[Johnd]

I think it is silly...I have adopted a new approach to this. If people want to spend their money on certain products it's their decision. After all they are the ones that will have to live with it!

Thus the adage "Ignorance is bliss." I thought that was part of the purpose of this forum; give some basic information to those who know no better, particularly if they're thirsting for it.

[gmichael]

Ok, I think you need to leave AverageJoe out of this. :D

SheepStar

I don't get out much anymore. Are you saying that we have an "averagejoe" member?:eek:

[Sheep]

I don't get out much anymore. Are you saying that we have an "averagejoe" member?:eek:

Yes, there is a member named AverageJoe.

SheepStar

[gmichael]

Yes, there is a member named AverageJoe.

SheepStar

My bad. Sorry AJ.

[jpaul]

In light of all of the product deception now days and there is a lot.
I'm glad to find good information from someone or someplace that
researches the truth behind a product.
I've got a Bose 5.1 system (for 10 yrs). From the advertisment I thought
it was the best around. I thought what I was hearing was also the best sound
I could hear and never really look any more. (Satified thru ignorance?).
Until I went to a friends house and heard his Def. Tech. Pro cin..
I heard sound that I never heard from my Bose speakers. Since then I've Auditioned B&W, Dynaudio and a few more. All of them sounded way better than my bose. (the subs in the Bose couldn't even sound close to any of the subs I heard with these systems.) Now, I'm not a bose basher but, I spent hard earned money for those bose and was given the impression that they were the best. (Best to me includes quailty materials and technically advanced that produces the best in sound availible). That is what was said! They were not even close to the quality of the other speakers. I don't like spending 10 times more for a product that produces 10 times less than what they claim.
I have found that many prevously owners of bose found out the same way.
None of us like being mislead or ripped off. If we want to buy Speakers worth that amount, Then, they should perform as they claim. So the Idea to say if there are satified then thats okay, yeah fine but I was one of those and
I not happy with not knowing. I'm glad to know and this is the place for it. Thats why I'm here. So super kudos to the the Audiophiles who help us to know what were buying and what to look for on specs and how not to get riped off. :) Thanks!!!!!

[davo]

I think in this day and age of the internet, there is no reason to buy ANYTHING with out having researched it before hand. You can educate yourself on any aspect of home theatre . Though I supppose there will always be people who will buy stuff because it has a red stripe on the side or coloured flashing lights on it, but they forfeit their right to whinge about it. (I still like to hear Blose bashing)

Jpaul, sorry it took 10 years to find enlightenment!:)

[Seth=L]

I am not even sure why I like to bash Bose, all my points have been made by others, repeatedly. I still need to say it though. For the money, it just doesn't get any worse than Bose.

"No highs, no lows, must be Bose" -quote

[no. 5]

I am not even sure why I like to bash Bose, all my points have been made by others, repeatedly. I still need to say it though. For the money, it just doesn't get any worse than Bose.
me too; unity aganst a common evil maby? :D

[no. 5]

I was reading some Bose reviews (I don’t remember why) and these are the three kinds of Bose people I noticed:

First kind: “I just have to tell every one about my great new Bose home theater! …Yamaha? never heard of them”

Second kind: “I own Bose and it’s great! Everyone should just lay off Bose because they are great! Martin Logan? They are OK, I guess. What? Bass management? Set all your speakers to large - duh!”

Third kind: “I had Wilson Audio, and Bowers & Wilkins, but I replaced them with Bose 901’s because they are so much better!”

But the thing is, the third kind only exists as a marketing tool, no one in real life has ever said the above.
The second kind is a bit funny, because they are ‘experts’ and yet they miss many audio truths - like what a subwoofer is for.
The arguments for Bose have usually been: “I’ve had my (fill in model number) for 12 years and they are still kicking!” well great! I have a pare of monitors from the 70’s that are still kicking, any good speaker should last a long time.
“a lot of people say Bose doesn’t have any bass, well guess what: I thought the tripods were in my house when I watched ‘war of the worlds’ the bass was that good!” of course they have bass! Anything under 300Hz is bass - what we mean is there is no sub 50Hz bass.
“the direct/reflect is what makes Bose so great!” show me one loudspeaker that does not interact with its environment.
In fact surround speakers are suppose to have wall reflections, a lot of companies make those, are thay as great? I even read one that said because of the direct/reflect, ‘you don’t need a center or surrounds!’ whaa? So because of extra wall reflections, you don’t need a channel for dialog?

Anyway, that has been eating at me for some time, and I’m glad I got it off my chest.
(edits of updated observations may come later)

[furrycute]

"Better products through marketing."

If you spend enough advertising dollars, you'll convince people to buy almost anything.

[no. 5]

sad but true.

realy shows the difrence between a market driven company, and a marketING driven company

[abboudc]

I received a mailer from the Good Guys & while flipping through it found what is basically a HTIB from Bose,only it advertises as "an intelligent system that learns your moods & creates custom playlists on the spot to match how you feel.Right. 5 cubes,a sub,& a 48 CD player for $4000!!!
Shame on Bose for preying on the ignorance of the average consumer.You may say that if someone is stupid enough & has enough money to blow on this crud then they deserve it,but I find it insulting for them to put this krap together & try to tell me that it's going to learn what mood I'm in & what I want to listen to. There is going to be a "Bose demo day" in my area in about 3 weeks. I'm going to go there &(probably get arrested or escorted out) try to expose these frauds for what they are. With a tad bit of cooperation from the GG's staff,maybe we can embarass these rats a little.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I actually don't feel bad for people. If you spend $4000 on a sound system (even $1000 for that matter), without doing a little research, you deserve what you buy.

[evilkat]

You know what I wanna see? I want to see Audioholics go out and get a Bose system and do a complete and thorough analysis on it, complete with response graphs, etc.

I have a feeling we already know the answers, but if those answers were to come from an authority like Audioholics, it would lend credence (and google hits!) to the truth about Bose.

Afterall, isn't this the credo of this site?

(And yes, I've already seen the intellexual.net article from back in '04)

[no. 5]

You know what I wanna see? I want to see Audioholics go out and get a Bose system and do a complete and thorough analysis on it, complete with response graphs, etc.
perhaps a set of 901's as thay are supost to be "the best"

[Geno]

You know what I wanna see? I want to see Audioholics go out and get a Bose system and do a complete and thorough analysis on it, complete with response graphs, etc.

I have a feeling we already know the answers, but if those answers were to come from an authority like Audioholics, it would lend credence (and google hits!) to the truth about Bose.

Afterall, isn't this the credo of this site?

(And yes, I've already seen the intellexual.net article from back in '04)
Wouldn't that be kinda like watching Mike Tyson kicking the snot out of a 75 year old diabetic woman? I mean, it's not like we're going to be surprised at the outcome...(ohhh, the humanity!....;) )

[evilkat]

Wouldn't that be kinda like watching Mike Tyson kicking the snot out of a 75 year old diabetic woman? I mean, it's not like we're going to be surprised at the outcome...(ohhh, the humanity!....;) )

:D

The guys at intellexual.net did a fine job dissecting the BOSE system apart, but I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that I value the thorough and scientific break down Audioholics reviews provide over any other review out there. The fact is, Audioholics is a trusted no bullshit place where I come to get the facts. I am sure a lot of others feel the same way too, and this would be a definitive treatise to rest the Audiophile Vs Bose controversy.

Besides, in defense of Bose, you have to admit that article was written back in 2004...perhaps Bose took the article to heart and maybe even went as far as to make some changes since then?

Would love to see what Gene and his crew come up with regardless. If nothing else we'll derive tons of amusement from the review and point our geeky little fingers at Uninformed Joe and laugh evilly :D

[Seth=L]

Why does everyone bash Bose? If a company is good and makes money at the same time, does that make them bad. Come on, I have listened to lots of Theater Research and Dogg Digital Audio speakers and Bose puts those companies to sleep.

A few years ago I bought a pair of Theater Research speakers on sale for $2000, that originally retailed for $5500. Now don't get me wrong, they did sound good, but not near as good as my Bose Acoustimas 5.1 set-up. You can feel the sound wrap itself around you in a bliss of harmonious sound.

The Subwoofer is awesome too. A buddy of mine has a dual 15" sub and the acoustimas easily destroys his subwoofer. The treated paper woofers are very transient and have lots of bass that could rattle the teeth from my head, or yours if you come listen to my system.

As for Bose bashers, get a clue. Bose is obviously the best setup that money can buy, and it looks good doing it. SO STOP BASHING HOSE, I MEAN BOSE!!

[davo]

Why does everyone bash Bose? If a company is good and makes money at the same time, does that make them bad. Come on, I have listened to lots of Theater Research and Dogg Digital Audio speakers and Bose puts those companies to sleep.

A few years ago I bought a pair of Theater Research speakers on sale for $2000, that originally retailed for $5500. Now don't get me wrong, they did sound good, but not near as good as my Bose Acoustimas 5.1 set-up. You can feel the sound wrap itself around you in a bliss of harmonious sound.

The Subwoofer is awesome too. A buddy of mine has a dual 15" sub and the acoustimas easily destroys his subwoofer. The treated paper woofers are very transient and have lots of bass that could rattle the teeth from my head, or yours if you come listen to my system.

As for Bose bashers, get a clue. Bose is obviously the best setup that money can buy, and it looks good doing it. SO STOP BASHING HOSE, I MEAN BOSE!!


I nearly had a bite at that one.

[jcrobso]

Baffle them with bull!
In the pro sound world we have a saying "No highs, no lows, must be Bo$e":D
Bo$e is just marketing FUD. They count on the PT Barnum saying "there a sucker born every minuet"
Once upon at time in the previous century long, long gone Bo$e speakers had quality parts. John

[Seth=L]

I nearly had a bite at that one.
You should have, I would have enjoyed it.:D

Was it the "Hose" that clued you in, or my previous posts?

[ChrisJam]

I nearly had a bite at that one.

I nearly did, too. The reference to Theater Research was good. :D


Chris

[no. 5]

Was it the "Hose" that clued you in, or my previous posts?
up to the "Hose" part I thought you had fliped

[Seth=L]

That was exactly what I was going for.:) The White Van speakers were a pretty good clue to, at least if you know a little smigion about me.:D

[Geno]

Seth, you almost had me there, too, until I saw you got your Theatre Research speakers for only $2000. I had to give $2500 for mine...:D

[Seth=L]

It sounds so much like a shill, maybe I will go talk to Hose about working for them. Did I say Hose, I meant Bose, sorry.:D:D:D

[Sheep]

Even had me. Well done.

If bose system sold for that they're worth, I would buy one.

SheepStar

[evilkat]

Even had me. Well done.

If bose system sold for that they're worth, I would buy one.

SheepStar


How much would a BOSE system really be worth?

[Sheep]

How much would a BOSE system really be worth?

Maybe 400 bucks?

SheepStar

[masak_aer]

Maybe 400 bucks?

SheepStar

I'd buy the 901 for $300 ($350 tops). It's going to make a good system for my office. :)

[Sheep]

I'd buy the 901 for $300 ($350 tops). It's going to make a good system for my office. :)

I was talking about a full 5.1 system.

SheepStar

[Seth=L]

I would say they are better than HTIAB in that same price range.

[masak_aer]

I was talking about a full 5.1 system.

SheepStar

:eek:
You are much worse than me:D

[prince_alfie]

Gimme more of those B&W 800 Series speakers for moi. Spasiba! :D

[Resident Loser]

...they're laughing all the way to the bank...and their satisfied customers are being entertained after some simple plug'n'play scenario, not debating (if that's what this banter might be called) Bose and their sinister plot to rule the audio world...

Now you can all go back to watching your tee-vees and the laser-totin' mechanical lizards...

jimHJJ(...really need absolute accuracy to do that don't we?...)

[gmichael]

...they're laughing all the way to the bank...and their satisfied customers are being entertained after some simple plug'n'play scenario, not debating (if that's what this banter might be called) Bose and their sinister plot to rule the audio world...

Now you can all go back to watching your tee-vees and the laser-totin' mechanical lizards...

jimHJJ(...really need absolute accuracy to do that don't we?...)

My lizard isn't mechanical.

[Resident Loser]

My lizard isn't mechanical.

...maybe not...does it carry a laser or other disruptive device that might prove hazardous to carbon-based life forms?

jimHJJ(..iguana go now...in case I don't get another chance, have a Happy Thanksgiving...)

[gmichael]

...maybe not...does it carry a laser or other disruptive device that might prove hazardous to carbon-based life forms?

jimHJJ(..iguana go now...in case I don't get another chance, have a Happy Thanksgiving...)

I'll never tell.

[NoName69]

I was just reading www-intellexual-net/bose.html

There is a one BIG MAJOR FLAW in this article. It starts off stating "Upon reading his site, I vowed to represent our side: the TRUTH. However, knowing very little about the products themselves other than the fact that they sound bad for the price, I took it upon myself to audition the Bose AM-15 ..."

So what does this mean?. It means that this guy was "base basher" before he wrote this article, but didnt know why he was a "bose basher". So it's perfectly obvious that he even before he started to write this article, he was going to write an article that was negative towards Bose. That it, he was completely biased before he started. He was going to miss all the good points, and only see the bad points.

That is not science. !!

In reading this forum, and others, I get the impression most of you "experts" fall into the same category.

As for myself, I am just someone trying to get some useful imformation on audio systems prior to buying one. I dont get any useful information from any of you guys!! :confused:

[Johnd]

[QUOTE]That is not science. !!

Whilst I agree, I don't see where the op, or for that matter, anyone on the first couple of pages, claimed that it was science...they were simply offering they're opinions. And while some just like to bash Bose, the general consenus with anyone with half an ear and a wallet that has a conscience is that you can do far better for your money, and that Bose is simply lacking. To the untrained ear, Bose may be just fine. Have you ever crtically listened to a comparably priced Paradigm sytem...or, better yet, AVS123? You write how good your system is, and bash others for finding it's shortcomings. Yet you have made absolutely no mention of an AB comparison. Hmmmm...can you spell troll?

In reading this forum, and others, I get the impression most of you "experts" fall into the same category.

Of the 25,544 members, I could never presume as you have to comment on whether "most" of them share the same character trait...or toilet. Did you use the scientific method for you conclusion, or did you run some kind of poll?

As for myself, I am just someone trying to get some useful imformation on audio systems prior to buying one. I dont get any useful information from any of you guys!! :confused:

Read on, and only a know-it-all could not eventually be enlightened. If you obtain "no useful information from any of you guys" around here...move on. Ironically, I doubt few find value in what you have proferred here thus far.

[jinjuku]

I was just reading www-intellexual-net/bose.html

In reading this forum, and others, I get the impression most of you "experts" fall into the same category.

As for myself, I am just someone trying to get some useful imformation on audio systems prior to buying one. I dont get any useful information from any of you guys!! :confused:

I did a head on comparison with a Bose system when I was helping my business partner research an HT/Music system (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10238885#post10238885) for his house.

[zhimbo]

As for myself, I am just someone trying to get some useful imformation on audio systems prior to buying one. I dont get any useful information from any of you guys!! :confused:

If you haven't noticed, you're in "The Steam Vent" area. This isn't really meant to be the 'useful audio information' portion of the site.

If you can't find useful audio information on this site, you aren't trying very hard.

[jimfitz]

I love my Bose. I'm running a used Acoustimass 7, used Acoustimass 5, and a new Acoustimass 5, with a Klipsch subwoofer through a new Onkyo TX-SR805. This is in my family room, with the monitor and components in a large cabinet. It's a perfect solution.

[Adam]

I love my Bose.

And that's what it's all about - finding something that we enjoy! Good to see that you've got yourself all set up.

BTW, I'm jealous of that 805... :D

[Davemcc]

I just sold my Bose 3-2-1 last week for the loss of a cool $1G. For a while, this was my main system (as compared to the archaic stuff I still had from the early 90's). When I got it, I was looking for a quick, simple "solution" to home theater and really had no idea what the state of the market really was.

After a while of using the Bose, I was simply unsatisfied with the sound quality of what was supposedly the best. I knew there had to be something better out there for me. Enter Audioholics.

For the record, the $200 AEGO-M sounds better than the $1,500 Bose 3-2-1 series II, in my experience in the same room with the same source.

[Rickster71]

As for myself, I am just someone trying to get some useful imformation on audio systems prior to buying one. I dont get any useful information from any of you guys!! :confused:


Since your "Just someone trying to get some useful information on audio systems prior to buying one"
Why don't you call or write Bose.
Ask them why they refuses to publish any frequency response charts, or distortion data on their products!

[obscbyclouds]

Ask them why they refuses to publish any frequency response charts, or distortion data on their products!

Other than their mediocre sound quality, this is my biggest problem with Bose. A company that doesnt publish specs is likely hiding something, possibly their lack of frequency response between 80 and 200 hz! :eek:

[masak_aer]

I was just reading www-intellexual-net/bose.html

There is a one BIG MAJOR FLAW in this article. It starts off stating "Upon reading his site, I vowed to represent our side: the TRUTH. However, knowing very little about the products themselves other than the fact that they sound bad for the price, I took it upon myself to audition the Bose AM-15 ..."

So what does this mean?. It means that this guy was "base basher" before he wrote this article, but didnt know why he was a "bose basher". So it's perfectly obvious that he even before he started to write this article, he was going to write an article that was negative towards Bose. That it, he was completely biased before he started. He was going to miss all the good points, and only see the bad points.

That is not science. !!

In reading this forum, and others, I get the impression most of you "experts" fall into the same category.

As for myself, I am just someone trying to get some useful imformation on audio systems prior to buying one. I dont get any useful information from any of you guys!! :confused:

Oh, hi! Nice to meet you. The information center is on the other side of this forum...Just walk your mouse right up, and you'll see it. You won't miss it! Welcome to AH..:p

[Seth=L]

NoName69, what a great and childish username for a forum, very appropriate for a troll.:D

[agarwalro]

Damn man, 10 pages of someone trolling and everyone biting.

Regarding the topic at hand... It's sad that a company which was held in high regard has reduce itself to selling overpriced HTIBs.

Personally, more than Bose I hate the musicians and so called "industry experts" that endorse the Bose products in the TV commertials, which I have the pleasure of seeing repeatedly on the HD channels.

[Johnd]

Damn man, 10 pages of someone trolling and everyone biting.

Regarding the topic at hand... It's sad that a company which was held in high regard has reduce itself to selling overpriced HTIBs.

Personally, more than Bose I hate the musicians and so called "industry experts" that endorse the Bose products in the TV commertials, which I have the pleasure of seeing repeatedly on the HD channels.

Well, it's not exactly 10 pages of trolling. Some have justified beefs about Bose.

And noname69 dredged up a nearly year old thread to do what?

Allow me to humbly state that I "unbiasedly" called him out first, and at first glance. I did not approve of what he posted, and he obviously has an agenda. As one has posted, I am unbiased when disagreeing with others. Don't I get a cookie for that? ;)

[Seth=L]

Well, it's not exactly 10 pages of trolling. Some have justified beefs about Bose.

And noname69 dredged up a nearly year old thread to do what?

Allow me to humbly state that I "unbiasedly" called him out first, and at first glance. I did not approve of what he posted, and he obviously has an agenda. As one has posted, I am unbiased when disagreeing with others. Don't I get a cookie for that? ;)
I can't do anything on the cookie, but I got you a thanks.:D

[no. 5]

I can't do anything on the cookie, but I got you a thanks.:D

Johnd; think of it as a green cookie.

[Johnd]

I can't do anything on the cookie, but I got you a thanks.:D

I just had to thank you for your thanks Seth. Irony. I felt like I was prodded (cattle prod) into the doghouse last week. :confused: I feel better now. :)

Yes. Must we not weed the garden every now and then? I'm not the negative type, nor am I the morality police. But such a post serves little, if any purpose. Other than to incite a riot (written). The guy was just out of order. I felt like calling him out.

[Johnd]

Johnd; think of it as a green cookie.

I will...Packer green :) (without Ahman). :mad: Hopefully we'll fare well in the rb and te positions.

[pzaur]

Damn man, 10 pages of someone trolling and everyone biting.

I'm only on page 3!
You can change the settings so that each page displays 40 posts. Someone mentioned this a while ago in another series. Makes life much easier than seeing 10 pages when it can only be 3.

Go to User CP (upper left) and click. Then click on Edit Options. About 2/3rds way down there is an option to change the number of posts being shown per page. I think the default is 10 per page. You can also change your Time Zone and DST if you live in a place (Arizona) where there isn't a time zone change.

-pat

[stratman]

Hey is it me or is this thread like beating a dead horse?;)