Yell at HawKe for Ditching the Mac Platform

[Clint DeBoer]

I left the Mac scene around 2001 for the world of build-it-yourself PCs that cost less than $500 – but I cannot get myself to ditch the Mac for several reasons. As the Editor of the largest home theater review website I have to be sure that our pages, articles and designs look good on both platforms. I also admit that I like venturing into the world of Mac OS X from time to time for a refreshing (but fortunately no longer superior) alternative to the Windows world. The only way to make this transition is via physically moving from one PC to another – or by employing a KVM (keyboard, video & mouse) switch.

Gefen makes one of the best I've seen (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/KVM_switch_Gefen_USBswitcher.html), with USB support, full cross-platform capability and DVI support. It even includes audio switching so that your permier computer speakers will take input from whichever system is active. If you've ever been interested in connecting two computers with a single keyboard, mouse and monitor - then this review is for you.

Read About the Gefen USB Switcher... (http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/KVM_switch_Gefen_USBswitcher.html)

[Rip Van Woofer]

One word: Security.

Every time another Windows virus/worm/Trojan horse/spyware/exploit gets everyone in a tizzy, we Mac users just smile smugly.

And it isn't just because of the old canard that virus writers don't want to bother with a platform that has a single-digit share of the installed base. Both the old Mac OS and the current Unix-based OS X are reputedly more difficult to write viruses for. In Mac OS X, no executable of any kind, from any source, can be installed without an administrator's password (a dialog box pops up). And ports that are left open by default in Windows, thus compromising the security of the individual PC, are closed by default in Mac OS X.

Admittedly, I think we are vulnerable to Word macro viruses. But whose fault is that, hmmm??

Anecdote: A guy I used to work with, a longtime Windows user, bought one of the early iBooks and installed Virtual PC on it. A couple of weeks later he told me, "I'm so pissed off! Windows is more stable and easier to fix on the Mac than on my Intel box!" Granted, this was the days of Windows 98.

[Westrock2000]

One word: Security.

Every time another Windows virus/worm/Trojan horse/spyware/exploit gets everyone in a tizzy, we Mac users just smile smugly.

And it isn't just because of the old canard that virus writers don't want to bother with a platform that has a single-digit share of the installed base. Both the old Mac OS and the current Unix-based OS X are reputedly more difficult to write viruses for. In Mac OS X, no executable of any kind, from any source, can be installed without an administrator's password (a dialog box pops up). And ports that are left open by default in Windows, thus compromising the security of the individual PC, are closed by default in Mac OS X.




This is because A; the consumer wants crazy interactivity and B; Microsoft has practically been forced to release it codes.

However I will point this out, If don't install a NIC or a Modem, the chances of your computer getting anything are pretty dismal.

I say its poeples fault. They thought it was cool that Microsoft was being sued, and they want all these features. Consumers brought it upon themselves.

I use Windows at home and Red Hat and Solaris at work. I like both, as they each have their own strengths and weaknesses. I've never used Apples other than at school, and I'll admit that is not the most current place to experience Apples.

I have also never had a virus on any computer I use. Its just about being smart.

(Although I have learned what the registry does a couple times :rolleyes: )

[Westrock2000]

One word: Security.


And it isn't just because of the old canard that virus writers don't want to bother with a platform that has a single-digit share of the installed base.


And to be honest, it is. It's not kids screwing around anymore. Its a competition. And nothing can draw numbers or media attention like Windows platforms.

Remember Apple is owned by Microsoft, so I'm pretty sure the same design philosophies are shared between the OS. So saying its just made better, probably won't hold.

[jeffsg4mac]

Hawke, you can use any OS you want, but to call windows superior is nonsense. Panther is so far ahead of anything windows was and is, it's not funny. One word for you, Expose' Every windows user I have shown it to, drools over it. I challenge you to take an 800mhz pc anything, with 1gb of ram and launch every program you have then try and get some work done, While ripping and burning cd's and encoding DVD in the background. Not gonna happen with any version of windows. It's multi-tasking ability sucks. Light years behind OS X. If you are going to throw things out there like that you better be prepared to back it up, and don't give me that line about there are more games and more software for windows. There are more games for PS2 and Nintendo and thats where games should be played. Also, once you remove the junk software there really are not that many more titles for windows, and now with OS X being unix in the core, any linux and unix program can be recompiled to run on X under Xwindows or written to run natively. Can windows do that? Tiger is just around the corner and windows will be playing catch up for a long time. And I am not a mac Zealot, I also own a PC that is in the closet running win 2000 and acting as a gateway for my Direcway connection. Soon to be replaced with the DW6000 though. I also am in tech support and support retail POS systems running in a small lan environment using windows NT, 2000, and XP, I also aid in mac support locally as well as PC support.

[Clint DeBoer]

Hawke, you can use any OS you want, but to call windows superior is nonsense.
I didn't call Windows Superior. I merely stated that Mac OS was no longer superior as in the days of Windows 95 and 98. Back then you could argue that Windows was a half-baked solution that wasn't yet out of Beta.

It's clearly subjective as there's no governing body handing out superior status to either OS. My point was just that XP is so useable and refined now that "the Mac experience" has lost much of its advantage (as you can see by the drop in marketshare.)

I won't banter much, but the virus issue is hardly worth the extra $1500*. If you are smart enough to install a $40 virus program (many are free and just as effective) and update WindowsXP periodically, you will never get a virus on a PC. I haven't, and my entire working life has been spent on a PC since as long as I can remember.

*I don't really want to argue about all the stuff Mac gives you for your extra money like cool software, Firewire, dual processors and such. While this is true, most people just take pictures, check email and write Word docs which is why Mac's marketshare (IMHO) is dwindling to mostly power users and enthusiasts.

[jeffsg4mac]

Couple of other things, you keep comparing a home built pc to a PowermacG5. Most people do not build their own PC and even if you did you could not come close to a PowermacG5 for $500. This (http://www.alienware.com/Configurator_Pages/roswell_X2.aspx?SysCode=PC-ROSWELL-5000&SubCode=SKU-DEFAULT) is as close as you are going to get to a top of the line Mac. Take note of the price and that is not a dual a dual is more. The PowermacG5 is very competitive in it's market. Price used to be a factor with macs, but not any more. If you start adding up all the great software you get, a PC price adds up real quick. Just try finding a replacement for Garage Band for less that a few hundred bucks. And one last thing, Final Cut Pro and Express, by far one of the best if not the best Pro and Pro-sumer video editing programs available and only on the Mac platform. And speaking of market share, shall we discuss the iPod's market share, or would you rather not go there :D

[Rip Van Woofer]

Remember Apple is owned by Microsoft, so I'm pretty sure the same design philosophies are shared between the OS. So saying its just made better, probably won't hold.

That would be quite a surprise to Apple's stockholders! You may be referencing the investment Microsoft made in Apple some years back when Apple's demise seemed likely; but even then the amount Microsoft put in was a spit in the bucket compared to Apple's market valuation and assets. In short, they did not buy Apple. It was part cash infusion, part publicity. Probably to defuse antitrust talk in part.

Fair minded person that I am, I am willing to grant that nowadays one's OS preference is much like one's speaker preference - as much a matter of taste and opinion as logic.

Anyway, nothing like a religious OS war to get the boys riled up! I have heard that XP is quite good but not being in the corporate world I haven't used a Wintel box in a few years.

The same friend I spoke of earlier also had this to say about the two platforms: "They both suck. They just suck in different ways."

And of course the *nix guys all spit in our general direction, anyway (perhaps less so in the case of OS X which is based on BSD Unix). Though I once met an honest-to-God former Multics (look it up) user who spit in everyone's general direction.

[jeffsg4mac]

Oh yeah Rip, you just reminded me, OS X is the number one Unix distribution

[Clint DeBoer]

New Dimension 8400 Desktop $769

Pentium 4 530 3Ghz/1MB Cache, 512MB DDR2-400/40GB Serial ATA HD, Free 48x CD and 48x CDRW, 128MB ATI Radeon X300SE PCI Express Video card, Gigabit Ethernet, 5.1 audio, 6 months ISP, XP Home $719 shipped free.

Start here (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/dimen?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd), select Featured systems under 8400, Customize it on leftmost config, Select Special Dual Drives 48x CD + Free 48x CDRW.

Highly recommend you select: 512MB Dual Channel DDR2 SDRAM at 533MHz (2x256M) +$10 as this memory is a lot faster.

Won't smoke a PowerMacG5, but show me a comparable computer from Apple for $800? Serial ATA? PCI Express? Gigabit Ethernet? 3GHz processor? 512MB DDR2-533 RAM? for under $800? This is why people go PC - not because PCs are better. They are just so much cheaper you can't help but do a double-take.

[jeffsg4mac]

Hawke, you can not just look at the first price Dell shows, that is without a monitor. I just configured that Dell as close as I could to an eMac. Both with DVD burner, both with 512 mb ram, both with comparable software, Both with firewire, an option on the dell, the cheapest 17in monitor Dell has, and Final price for the Dell was, are you ready for this, $1497.00 and for the Mac, hang on, $1074.00. The Dell is in no way a better deal and still does not give you good digital movie editing software.

[Rob Babcock]

Can you get a really cheap mac at all? Like something in the sub-$500 range? Can you build your own Mac yourself at home? Most of the sites I've bought computer parts at don't sell any Mac stuff except memory, and if there's a cheap pre-built one I've not seen it.

I realize guys that like their Apples are pretty touchy about it, and I don't mean to offend them, but I doubt I could get by with a Mac. First is price- given that the parts are readily available (and I have some parts lying around) I'll likely build another PC before long. For about $400 (+I have a spare case, sink/fan, cables & PSU, as well as a couple optical drives) I can build a P4/2.8-3.0. The computer I'm typing this one is a 2.8 * Celeron and I bought it with monitor for $450. To be fair, I've upgraded it in many ways, but that's the rub- I can afford to work with a Pentium. For the guy who can "roll his own" (and it's not difficult to build a PC), a potent machine can be had for under $1k.

That said, if it's possible to buy the parts (proc, mobo, graphics card, etc) to build a Mac on the cheap, I'd be interested in a link, if you have one. I do plan to build a 2nd PC, and then configure the slowest one as an internet-only PC.

I will say that I've been a Windows-complainer most of my computing life, but I really like XP. On my PC it's very stable, and just a joy to use. But, and it's a big "but", the security is pathetic. I have a very complete suite of the best security software and I keep all definitions up to date religiously, but I've still had adware/virus problems, and that's behind a router too! I've finally given Internet Explorer the boot in favor of Firefox, so hopefully that'll help. Hawke, I'd say if you've never had a virus or spyware problem, you're either blessed with godlike computer knowledge or astonishing luck.

[Clint DeBoer]

Hawke, I'd say if you've never had a virus or spyware problem, you're either blessed with godlike computer knowledge or astonishing luck.
Really, I just run the software that keeps it off... Norton Antivirus and Adaware. And another biggie is letting Windows keep itself updated with critical updates. Oh, and I disable the Preview Pane in Outlook for my email inbox (so no email vireuses can autorun on me). If you do those things on a PC you will probabaly never get a virus.

[jeffsg4mac]

Rob, you can't build a mac per say, you can upgrade certain models. If you found a good deal on a blue and white Gee3 or an early Gee4 you could turn those into a pretty powerful video editing machine. PowerLogix, Sonnet and other World computing offer a number of upgrades for older hardware. It is also true you get more mileage from a mac, most people don't upgrade every year unless they are some high-end video shop that just needs the horsepower. I upgraded my processor from a 466 Gee4 to an 800, added a gig and half of ram, DVD burner, 4 Drives, and I am going to get a new video card soon. So my Gee4 is not stock by any stretch. I have a blue and white Gee3 that is in my boys room. It is a 350mhz. I am going to get a 1.2 Ghz Gee3, new video card, and add 1gig of ram. It will then just as fast or faster than any 2.5ghz intel machine. All that will be about $325

How come the forum will not let you place the letter Gee by itself? It turns it into an *

[Rob Babcock]

I've been told by some musicians that the Mac is the way to go, but I have no use for any video editing software nor any "Garage Band" software. And unfortunately, there are a few peices of software that I absolutely must have that have no Mac equivalent. Perhaps a "virtual PC" could be run on the Mac, but that begs the question- why would I spend more on $ a Mac to try to do what a very cheap PC could do? No indictment of Apple, it's just that there's a couple deal-breakers, software wise, that I wouldn't even need a PC without!

What I've been considering, though, is to set up a cheapo machine as my E-mail, bill paying & web browsing PC and going with Linux or something as an OS. It wouldn't matter if it didn't run a lot of software- I'd have a 2nd, more hi-po PC for stuff like Eximius DVD+Audio, Nero 6, Surething, DVD Decrypter, etc. I'd rarely burn anything or do any heavy lifting on the internet machine- it's main requirement would be security. I suspect that going to Linspire or something like that & using Firefox would cut my chances of security issues down to an infinitesimally small level. Security wouldn't be a big issue for my He-Man PC because I in all likelihood wouldn't connect it to the internet except to register software/get updates & bug fixes for current apps.

[Rob Babcock]

BTW, I read a very sobering comparison of AVs; in the compro I read, Norton finished just below the middle of the pack as far as how many viruses it caught. In one test, it recognized just 4 out of 7 viruses it was attacked with. I myself have had to use Panda's online AV to remove really iritating things that Norton couldn't do anthing about. I finally deleted Norton from my machine in favor of BitDefender- it seems to do a much better job.

[jeffsg4mac]

What software apps do you have to have? There is most always a mac replacement and a lot of times it is a better written app. If you are a musician, than Garage Band is a great app. The only thing I have not been able to find for mac is someway to access an access database. SQL, not an issue, but no access access. It does not sound like you would need a mac for anything special, if you found a good deal them get it and try out OS X, you may never go back. If you are looking for a laptop than a mac is a great choice.

[jeffsg4mac]

Oh yeah I almos forgot, Did I mention OS X :D There is a coolness factor that must be accounted for :D

[Rob Babcock]

The one absolute dealbreaker for me is Eximius' DVD+Audio software. It takes 16 bit PCM/wav. files and using a proprietary interpolation-esque upsampler, converts them to 24/96 files & burns them to DVD-R. The resulting discs sound better (sometimes shockingly better) than the original CD. They also sound better than [reputedly] any hardware upsampler. I know of no other software equal to this. If you know of something please give me a link. Once you've heard what it can do, you'd be hardpressed to ever live without it.

At any rate, that arguement is a bit like telling someone you've created Doc Oc arms and you want to affix them and amputate their arms & legs! The new apendages will be better, you just have to learn to use them! :p I'm not trying to unneccessarily bust you chops, but that's the rub- most of us don't want to ditch every peice of software we like and buy/learn something new. Take Nero6; I really really love Nero, and it offers a huge amout of capabilities. So much so that it's taken me several versions and a couple years to get it all figured out, and I still don't know how to use everything. Even if Mac has something as good, I'd still have to learn how to use all the features and how to optimally use it. And what of SureThing? I don't think they make a Mac version (could be wrong)- I have many hours of time invested and hundreds of templates & tiles I've created. Not to mention it has built in support for my Epson CD printer. And I can't live without my CD printer!

I'm not knockin' Mac, but I really can't afford to buy a "serious" Mac, nor a serious PC for that matter. But I can afford to build a serious PC. As far as I know, you can't buy parts & build your own mac at all (again, I could be misinformed).

The one thing I have considered, based on some discussions at Audiocircle.com, is buying a used *3/*4/Cube to use as a Web computer (for surfing, billpaying, etc). There the security would be a comfort, and I wouldn't need to spend much. I could keep a Windows machine for "heavy lifting" and running the specific can't-live-without apps like Eximius DVD+Audio. If it'd work, I'd connect 'em both to one key/mouse/monitor with a KVM. That would give me bulletproof security for the net, and let me have my Windows machine disconnected from the internet. That would be very nice for security & privacy reasons (and because some of the software I employ legally now could conceivably be illegal soon. And legislation has been proposed to allow Big Brother to root around in your computer via a net connection and remove things they deem in violation of whatever laws the Hollywood & The Big Five manage to ram thru).

[jeffsg4mac]

Rob if you have a lot of software then of course it would not make any sense to ditch it all and get a new platform, however, if you were looking for another toy and you got a good deal on a mac, then it might be a good idea to get acquainted with OS X. I am positive there is software like you described I will look into it. There are some very high-level audio software titles available to the mac, they are used very heavily in the audio world. Just go to Apples site and read about Core Audio (http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/audio/) This is just one of the things that sets OS X apart from Win XP and why the audio world has embraced the Mac and OS X. Take a look at This Program (http://www.apple.com/logic/) is this the kind of stuff you are looking for. This is one of many available to OS X.

[Rob Babcock]

I'm not gonna discount da' Mac outta hand, but I'm guessing you'll search the wide world over looking for an equivalent to DVD+Audio with no luck. That's a paradigm shift in software that will one day rock the hallowed hall of audiophilia. Again, show me a glimmer of that capability and I'll be pricing Macs, but I'm not holding my breath. Copious research has shown that the Eximius software has no peer.

[jeffsg4mac]

Well on their site they have OS X software, so it is just a matter of time for that one app I suspect. Since 24/96 is supported natively in OS X it would be easy for them to do. I will look for another app that does what that one does. It could be it is the only one of it's kind and it could also be that a lot of other programs do it as well but they just don't advertise the fact that they can. You would have look at such programs in more detail to see what they can do. I did find several programs that let you create Dolby Digital audio CD's Toast with Jam is one of them.

[jeffsg4mac]

Rob, I took a look at that program again and what is the final format of the Disks you are creating? If it is Dolby Digital then there are several programs that do the very same thing. Or is it Native DVD audio or MLP, Merridian Lossless Compresion. It does not say.

Ahhh here it is, It is not DVD audio or MLP. But it is 24/96 PCM.

DVD+Audio is a DVD-Video compliant format, wich means that your normal standalone DVD player can play the DVD+Audio discs, no need to buy expensive new hardware.

You can create a disc containing multiple albums, compiled from your own normal CD-Audio disc, but then in either high quality (up to PCM 96kHz/24bits) or high quantity (up to 45 hours MP2 at 192kbps) audio to any DVD player.

Please note : DVD+Audio should not be confused with DVD-Audio, for which you need a special player and discs!

[Rip Van Woofer]

Jeff, I know you're "fighting the good fight" but you must realize that, indeed, a lot of specialized software for many areas is only available in Windows versions. And that a person who has been using a given platform for any length of time would have to spend considerable time and money either switching to (say) Mac versions of Windows software (you can't just "trade in" your Windows versions of Word and Dreamweaver for Mac versions, and vice versa), or ferreting out equivalents (if they exist) of the more specialized software and learning those anew.

Yes, I think the Mac platform still offers advantages over Windows. Yes, I think Windows' market dominance is less related to its inherent qualities than to the ability of Gates/Microsoft to be even more business savvy (and ruthless) than Jobs/Apple. But as I said before, the whole thing by now has come down more to one's taste and biases. For a lot of folks, Windows is good enough at the price. If you think that is a lot like Bose, well...! And I think even Jobs has accepted that, indeed, the Mac has become a niche platform for "enthusiasts and power users". Sort of the Krell of computers. ;-{)} Chacun a son gout...(apologies to Francophones, I don't know my French diacritical marks!)

Anyway, what was Hawke's artical actually about? ;)

[jeffsg4mac]

Rob, after rereading what you posted we need to discuss this further. Let me explain. You said Eximius' DVD+Audio software. It takes 16 bit PCM/wav. files and using a proprietary interpolation-esque upsampler, converts them to 24/96 files & burns them to DVD-R. The resulting discs sound better (sometimes shockingly better) than the original CD Starting to sound a little like snake oil. If the original recording was 16/44, then up converting it to 24/96 will not improve the original recording, you have only captured 16/44. You may have interpolated, altered or somehow changed the way the original sounded but you did not improve upon the original in any technical sense. This is no different than taking an Mp3 file and up-converting to CD audio, it will still only sound as good as the mp3 no matter what format you up-convert it to. You could somehow Eq the thing to make appear that it sounds better than the original but then what do you have? Why don't you just get a DVD Audio/SACD player and start enjoying real 24/96? Sounds like a waste of time and blank DVD's

[jeffsg4mac]

Rip, I am not arguing that point, if someone has money invested in software then it would not make sense for them to switch unless they needed some sort of functionality. If they are just starting from scratch, then I will argue that a PC is not the bargain Hawke says it is, especially if you are not building your own as most people do not. If your are looking to edit Video and Sound, then I will also say Mac OS X is a Superior platform in which to do that.

[Rob Babcock]

Don't knock it til you've heard it, Jeffsg4mac! ;) Do you have a PC at all, or access to one? If so, you can download a trial version for free and try it out.

I do in fact have a Denon DVD-2200, and a decent collection of DVD-A & SACD discs (about 50). Eximius' software can't quite match that level of quality, but you'd be surprised how close DVD+Audio discs can come. If you scour the wide world, you'd find maybe 100 rock & pop discs I'd actually want to own on DVD-A or SACD. But there are tens of thousands of CDs. That's why this software is so cool. Someday maybe all my CDs will be rereleased on a hirez format, affording me the joy of buying them all a second or third time, but even if they were all out it'd take me years to be able get 'em all.

Are you familiar with how interpolation works? If so I'm really surprised you call it "snake oil." Some of the finest DACs in the world upsample and/or interpolate. Upsampling doesn't create new information, but it does allow better accuracy in reading the least significant bit (LSB). Interpolation does create additional info. Say what you will, but the Perpetual Technologies P1/P3 combo upsamples & interpolates and is widely considered to be among the finest DACs in existance.

At any rate, if you convert an MP3 to CD, that's all you're doing- transfering it. That's not how upsampling works.

Again, try the software before you judge it. It's humorous that you're saying it sounds like a waste, since you've never heard what it sounds like. ;)

[jeffsg4mac]

I do have a PC, so I will try it, but I am very skeptical knowing full well what the source is. I know full well what interpolation is/does It does not improve digital video, 480p up converted/interpolated to 1080i is no better than the original 480p If I can't see the difference I doubt I will be able to hear it as well, that is all I am saying. Digital audio or Digital video a bit is a bit is a bit.

[Rob Babcock]

Audio & video are very different. Hell, you aren't out anything if you don't like it. Aside from the issue of quality, one very cool aspect is that depending on what bit depth you choose, you can get up to four hours of full quality music on one disc.

[jeffsg4mac]

Don't knock it til you've heard it, Jeffsg4mac! ;) Do you have a PC at all, or access to one?


Dude, I work in IS, I have access to anything from Linux to AS400 :D

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I have both a Mac OS-X(panther) PC and a Win XP-Pro PC. So I am going to speak on the subject , like it or not. :p

VIRUS: The modern computer virus is usually like the pimple on your back you never even knew you had. Yes, Mac computers get fewer of them (if any, I'm not sure) but the few I got on my XP computer did no noticable damage to anything. I thought everything was fine until Antivirus said otherwise and fixed the problem easily.

In short: Virus's are not even the common cold and everybody fears them like cancerous-Aids. Less than 1% of PC's are the actual targets of these viruses, normally servers and huge corporations, but every buyer of a Wal*Mart Emachine thinks heathen commiee "Hackers" are out to use their POS 'net-surfing boxes to launch missle attac ks against the pentagon.

GAMES: Yeah, windows has more, better games. Mac owners have to deal with it. If you own a Mac I hope you like Myst. My friend did some sort of voodoo magic and was actually able to make Return to Castle Wolfenstein (for PC) run on a Mac. I don't know the specifics, so I can't tell you what to do.

UPGRADE: Uprgading is the trump card that Windows users love to strap to their groins and dance around Mac user with. Of course the 'powermac' line of computers is as disectable as a regular tower PC. You can't upgrade the iMac or the eMac's processor or video-graphics cards. You can upgrade RAM (with an easy-to reach port for the outside!) easily enough. Of course I could post the genius arguement that less than 1% of windows user could change or even identify a graphics card, but I won't stoop so low. :D

You can overclock a Mac regardless of popular myth. And the physical structure of an iMac/eMac is designed so auxialliary devices can be "easily" plugged into numerous slots (The eMacs are even on the easy to reach side, not the back).

SOFTWARE: Software is the grand-poobah of the Mac (Unless you belong to the Holy Church of iPod worship). GarageBand, iDVD, iMovie, and iTunes are among the short list of easiest to use/genius consumer level programs ever to grace a computer. iTunes, with its built in download store was made available to PC users so that even more iPods could be sold. (And some say covert PC users to Macs). In that regard iTunes was really a trojan horse, get hooked on the one-click usablity and suddenly you find yourself at the Apple store demoing iDVD and buying an iMac. GarageBand and iMovie are software that you would have to spend, literally, thousands extra to get a similar perfoming PC.

In addition to that Macs have become the de-facto standard for video editing and music production (on a non-platform specific computer). many production companies have actually "downgraded" the pure number crunching supercomputers because one producer can create more finished video material quicker on the "slower" on the Mac. Rumor has it Williams st. Productions (Aqua Teen Hunger Force, Sealab 2021) replaced a $100,000 AVID computer with a $2500 eMac for finished production.

iPod: Love it or hate it, the iPod is likely to do more for the recorded music industry than SACD or DVD-A in the next five years. It is the most popular portable music device since the SONY tape Walkman, and with nearly 100,000,000 songs sold in just a year (Come on, say it in a Dr.Evil voice "One hundred meeeeelion" :) )it quickly outpaced the CD-single and may actually be giving the standard-CD a run for its money! (Can someone get any info on download vs.album sale numbers for specific titles?) Plus it can be used in one hand with just a thumb!

COMPUTER DESIGN: I'm not a huge fan of ghostly white, but Apple got it all over Windows in design of the physical device itself. smooth edges, recessed speakers, DVD-drawer button the keyboard, one piece design, weird layered paint-clearcoat/plastic shell, Titanium laptops.

By being the sole maker of the computers, Apple hands down can build a nicer product (no competition rushing cheap **** to market). Yes this makes the computer cost more, but the design is a huge selling point.

I believe the only comparable designer/builder of a PC would be Alienware.

[jeffsg4mac]

Rock and roll, I love your post, but a few corrections, imacs , the older ones, can have a processor upgrade. Sonnet has an upgrade for the older imacs, but you can not upgrade the video at all. imacs were never intended to be upgraded anyway. No upgrade for new imacs or Emacs yet. If faster *4's become available you will probably see them. And while there are not as many games for the mac, there are some good ones. Return to Castle Wolfenstein (http://www.apple.com/games/articles/2002/02/wolfenstein/) is one them. There are a lot of others too. MYST is cool though. I have it. :D

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

imacs were never intended to be upgraded anyway. No upgrade for new imacs or Emacs yet.

A computer owner can upgrade their iMac & eMac:

*Optical drives (CD/DVD players and burners) can be switched for newer equipment. They currently use standard Pioneer PC drives

*Hard drives can be replaced

*RAM can be upgraded (and is easier to do on a Mac)

*OS X natively supports multiple firewire harddrives

*BlueTooth, Airport cardsets can be added by user

*Processor can be overclocked

*Interior wiring could be replaced by $3000 Nordost wiring (I keed, I keed:D )

You can upgrade them a little. Just not as much as a PC.

Anyway, to elaborate on my VIRUS rant:

Adware and Spyware, including the vile pop-up ad are causing far more damage to PC's everywhere than a professional virus ever will. And most people bring it on themselves by downloading crap from Yahoo!( and similar sites) and not performing simple maintenece to thier broswer cache.

[Clint DeBoer]

This is one thread I knew would go off-topic - so I pre-off-topiced-it with the title.

That switcher is a VERY cool device, by the way, for those of you who do use both platforms (or just 2 PCs or Macs in the same room)

Carry on! ;)

[jeffsg4mac]

Hawke, so you admit to being a troll :D

Rock&Roll, I knew all that, I meant processor upgrades, smarty pants :)

[Rob Babcock]

That's hilarious! It would take a mac dude to think an Alienware computer looks cool! :rolleyes: A monkey could add memory to a PC or a mac, so that wouldn't be a big deal with either machine.

The PC may have a lot more good games, but I really don't game on the PC, anyway. I much prefer my Xbox & 100" Da-Lite screen. :D Nope, 19" don't cut if for my gaming! Well, there are some games that look pretty cool for the PC, but I'm too lazy to learn 'em and too cheap to buy 'em.

I imagine this is pretty far off Hawke's original topic, but it has been interesting. Down the road I might look for a cheapo used Mac, if I can figure out for sure that a KVM would let me switch between the PC & Apple machines. My Microsoft keyboard & mouse might be programmed to send a phased polaron burst into the mac to fry it! ;) Sorry, I've been watching Voyager, Season 3 on DVD all nite!

[Rip Van Woofer]

Oh, that's right. This was about some switch thingy, wasn't it? :D

[JVC]

I don't know any particular links for mac parts, but you can get them. The main reason you can't build a mac, is that you can't get the firmware (legally). Apple does not release it. Too many people and companies have access to pc firmware and other parts. That's why pcs have many more problems than a mac.
Check out www.macmall.com, or any other sites that sell macs. You can get an eMac that's loaded, for about $700. That's with a 17" screen. They are giving free printers and lots of free memory with them now too.
You will pay top dollar for Apple's top of the line machines (PowerMac *5), just as you will pay top dollar for a pc's top of the line machine (AlienWare). You find more cheap pcs, because everybody and their brother, are building them.........and Apple doesn't allow it. A few years ago, Apple let some companies start building Mac Clones. Then they started having compatability problems out the ying yang. The clone companies didn't live up to Apple's standard of excellence. So, after 2-3 years of giving it a try, they took away the opportunity for the clones to continue, and made macs better again.
We have two older macs. One is about 10 years old, and the newest one is a 5 year old iMac. Both are still going strong. I had a custom built pc, built for me. I do like some games that are not available for the mac. A lot of internet stuff is also pc only. My pc has windows XP, which has been fairly simple to learn. It'll take awhile to learn it, like I want to. I think everyone should own BOTH (a mac & a pc).
I still prefer the mac for ease of use and ease of fixing problems. But with the earlier OS'. I do not like OSX, personally. It got totally away from the ease of use and fixing standard. I prefer OS 8.6 and OS 9.xx.
If we can come up with the money, we'll probably get a new eMac or the 17" WS iMac.

Edit: This software won't let me put the * in the *5, in (). I tried twice! :mad:
It did it again!!!!!!!!
You know........the letter after F. The seventh letter in the alphabet. :mad:

[jeffsg4mac]

JVC, come on now. OS 8 or 9? they suck beans compared to X. OS X is not hard to fix, but it is hard to break. You need to get yourself familiar with X because 9 is a dead OS. Once you use X you will never go back to 9, you can not make any valid arguments to support 8 or 9 being better than X. X does everything better and more stable. Panther is the most advanced OS out there and Tiger will be so much more. If your going to post statements like that you better be prepared to back it up. :) I was a os 8 and 9 freak and there is no way you could ever get me to use it again. In-fact I never even run it in classic. It is not installed on any mac in my house and there are 5 of them :D

[Rob Babcock]

Well, the question is now moot for me. Fate gave me the chance to build a new PC for a bit less money than would normally be possible. I got a 2.8 Gig Pentium 4 (Northwood), Intel 865 board, 512 MB of very low CAS latency DDR PC 3200, 1 x 120 GB Seagate Barracuda, 1 x Maxtor 120 GB, Pioneer DVD burner, Memorex CD-R burner, Zalman Quiet CPU cooler/fan & one 120 mm case fan, all in an Antec 3700 BQE. I've got a KVM to hook up my "old" PC & my new one together. My older one is set up as my internet & messing around PC while the new one is set up as a serious burning machine (and it's not connected to the internet at all! :D ).

I conidered a cheapie Mac for internet, but it woulda cost too much to upgrade my current old PC (a 2.7 * Celeron on a not-really-advanced MoBo) into a serious gaming & burning rig, plus buying the mac. And the software I need isn't available for the Mac to use it as my Big Rig. Besides, I simply can't afford a "serious" mac.

[JVC]

jeffsg4mac............
I have played around with my friend's iBook, that has Panther on it, a lot of times. I end up so aggrevated with it, I just have to stop, before I do some physical damage to it (such as, drop it on the floor, and stomp on it)! It is much harder to find your way around in that OS.
With the OS 9 system, if you were having problems with something, 95% of the time you could toss out the prefs for what you're having the problem with, and voila.....problem fixed! That doesn't work with OSX. Also have to learn a new bunch of keyboard shortcuts. Just TOO different, for me. A lot of differences I can't remember right now. It's just not as user friendly, as it once was. And I've heard a lot of people say this. Probably the newer mac users, that don't know any better, can jump in and run with it. But, us older guys, that are used to and set into the older OS', have problems with it. As I said......I'm not the only one that feels this way. If you like OSX, then you go ahead and enjoy it. If we get a new one in the future, I guess I'll either learn it, or just stay on the pc........... :)

[JohnA]

Hey there...I'm a MAC junkie :cool: ...always been always will be.... but I got to give it to the PC Camp the PC has come a long way :p . I'm forced to use a PC here at work...an E machine running Win 98 :mad: (I know, I know...kill me now!!!) There are cool games for the MAC...more for the PC...I don't game that much and if I do it is on my PS2.... The only reason you can't "build your own" Mac (which you can, you just need to know where to look) is because Apple is the stingy Betamax of the computer world.... almost any Mac can be upgraded or mod.... and you can use PC cases to build your own MAC for less!!! :D :cool: And a note on OS9 vs OSX...I was in the OS9 camp for a long time...I tried OSX at first and didn't like it....I had to re-learn a lot of stuff...but now I am only on OS 10.3.5....would I go back?...NOPE...I haven't had 1/100 of the problems I had with OS9...Just waiting to get my hands on Tiger :cool: