Audio Wise - What do we pay for in a Reciever ?

As I am on the verge of getting a separate amp to drive my new Klipsch FR-83s. Using my rather entry level receiver as the pre-amp (it does have pre-outs for separate amplification). I looked into gettting a better receiver in the mean time (or even as a full solution, I don't know). I am working with a 5.1 config but my 2 channel is key. On the surface it seems that the better receivers are much more expensive because they offer much more for video, VDMI and so forth. I don't care much about video as long as the picture is average or just OK.

I do care about sound.

So the question is, do I still need a better receiver even though I am going for a separate amp? It seems like the processing that my receiver does is fine, actually quite good for what I know (pioneer VSX-816). Just not very robust in terms of amping my good front speakers. I think I may be missing something regarding the audio from entry level receivers to good ones. Or am I? Just thinking that I might wind up paying so much more for a lot of video capabilty which i dont care about. Please expand on the topic to help me out.
Thanks.

If you are going to use external amplification, the Pioneer receiver is fine. You will be using it as a pre-amp and processor. It should have enough power to drive the center and surrounds, especially when you relieve it of the duty of amplifying the front channels.

The difference between 'entry' level receivers and the higher models in the line are things like additional inputs and convenience features like transcoding from one video format to another. Higher end receivers will also have slightly better power supplies or the ability to drive lower impedance speakers but in terms of processing they all use pretty much the same chips with DD and DTS code.

I would get a two channel amp from Emotiva or perhaps the Behringer A-500 for the budget minded. It will power your Klipsch with great ease, it just doesn't look like your typical home audio amplifier. It is a pro-amp, but it does what any decently engineered amplifier does, it amplifies the signal with no audible colorations. You can get this amp for under $200.

Klipsch RF-83's have a sensitivity of 100dB @ 2.83V / 1m, and your VSX-816 is rated at 110 watts per channel. This is equivalent to powering speakers rated at 88db with a 1,760 watt per channel amp (power requirements double with each 3db drop in sensitivity). Are you sure more power will help?

For the most part, Klipsch speakers don't require extra amplification. They are extrememly efficient at reproducing a signal. Did you mean RF 83? Those are their current top of the line reference towers, and have a msrp of $2500. They will handle a separate two channel power amp of 250 wpc.

http://www.klipsch.com/products/details/rf-83.aspx
RF-83

Specs:
frequency response: 29Hz-21kHz +/-3dB
power handling: 250W RMS / 1000W Peak
sensitivity: 100dB @ 2.83V / 1m
nominal impedance: 8 ohms compatible

What is it you don't like about their sound with your Pioneer unit? Do they seem to distort when you turn up the volume, or do they lack low end? I do agree, if these are your speakers, the match was not made in heaven.

FWIR, the Emotiva line of amps are rated rms at 1000Hz, and not 20-20,000Hz, so make sure to estimate their power ratings roughly 25% less into full bandwidth.

corey said:

Klipsch RF-83's have a sensitivity of 100dB @ 2.83V / 1m, and your VSX-816 is rated at 110 watts per channel. This is equivalent to powering speakers rated at 88db with a 1,760 watt per channel amp (power requirements double with each 3db drop in sensitivity). Are you sure more power will help?

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I wouldn't put that wattage to the test.

We pay more for features than performance.

In fact, that's what keeps this hobby in turmoil.

Didja ever notice that there's not a quantum jump for power ratings between one receiver and the ones just below or above it in the line?

There really hasn't been any "breakthrough" technologies since DD/DTS hit the market. Since then, it's been incremental feature creep that's driven the market.

DSP modes, aside from DPL and it's variants, are a feature I can live without, but some find 'em necessary.

Likewise, video switching. I'm perfectly content to use my TV for video switching and my receiver for audio switching. In fact, it allows me to use jus the source and TV (with the receiver turned off) when I choose.

When you get down to it, simply determine what features you absolutely need and use that for making your decisions.

Odds are that you can find something that meets your basic needs that sells for a lot less than the TOTL models.

Just make sure you get one with as much I/O as you can find and has preamp outs to drive external power amps should you need more power in the future and you'll be set for a long time

Seth=L said:

I wouldn't put that wattage to the test.

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I'd bet corey is pretty darn close with those figures, probably within 3db.

markw said:

In fact, that's what keeps this hobby in turmoil.

Didja ever notice that there's not a quantum jump for power ratings between one receiver and the ones just below or above it in the line?

There really hasn't been any "breakthrough" technologies since DD/DTS hit the market. Since then, it's been incremental feature creep that's driven the market.

DSP modes, aside from DPL and it's variants, are a feature I can live without, but some find 'em necessary.

Likewise, video switching. I'm perfectly content to use my TV for video switching and my receiver for audio switching. In fact, it allows me to use jus the source and TV (with the receiver turned off) when I choose.

When you get down to it, simply determine what features you absolutely need and use that for making your decisions.

Odds are that you can find something that meets your basic needs that sells for a lot less than the TOTL models.

Just make sure you get one with as much I/O as you can find and has preamp outs to drive external power amps should you need more power in the future and you'll be set for a long time

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This is one heck of a good post & worth quoting it all,unless you need different connections that your current reciever does not have then keep it & upgrade another component instead.

highfihoney said:

I'd bet corey is pretty darn close with those figures, probably within 3db.

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I mean that receiver doesn't have that much power. It has tiny caps, a fairly small power supply and it is rated 110 watts per channel 8 ohms (maybe 6) @ 1khz. It really isn't a clean powerfull amplifier. My BICs are efficient, but my similarly designed Magnavox receiver doesn't do so well with the higher output levels, it starts to choke. The Behringer is an inexpensive solution to the problem, and will power the Klipsch with much ease.

""What is it you don't like about their sound with your Pioneer unit? Do they seem to distort when you turn up the volume, or do they lack low end? I do agree, if these are your speakers, the match was not made in heaven.""
In response to above quote from Buckeye, the problem is that the receiver ovlerloads and shuts down when powering the RF-83s at somewhat high listening levels. The receiver wont do this when I checked it with some lesser front speakers (small Cerwin Vega towers, 150 w 90db sensitivity). It will drive those to scary (and beyond desirable levels). I called both Klipsch and Pioneer. The Klipsch speakers happen to present lower impedence at certain high volume levels and frequencies and thus cause the VSX-816 receiver to run out of power, (getting it hot I guess), and then overloading and shutting itselft down.

Both Klipsch and Pioneer agreed that the VSX-816 (while 110w x 7) just is not the best amplification if I want it good and loud.

Just got back into the hobby and I'm still learning. Thanks, you all are great!

timetohunt said:

In response to above quote from Buckeye, the problem is that the receiver ovlerloads and shuts down when powering the RF-83s at somewhat high listening levels. The receiver wont do this when I checked it with some lesser front speakers (small Cerwin Vega towers, 150 w 90db sensitivity). It will drive those to scary (and beyond desirable levels). I called both Klipsch and Pioneer. The Klipsch speakers happen to present lower impedence at certain high volume levels and frequencies and thus cause the VSX-816 receiver to run out of power, (getting it hot I guess), and then overloading and shutting itselft down.

Both Klipsch and Pioneer agreed that the VSX-816 (while 110w x 7) just is not the best amplification if I want it good and loud.

Just got back into the hobby and I'm still learning. Thanks, you all are great!

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That does make sense, I would definitely go for a bigger amplifier. The A-500 is stable at 4 ohms, 230 x 2 @ 4 ohms is the spec. I agree with Klipsch and Pioneer as well, that receiver can't handle loads like that.

So, it's the old impedance swing trick.

It's not the first time this has popped up. Just shows to go ya that specs really don't always tell ya all ya need to know.

Good detective work, TTH...

Now you see why some people are hesitant to recommend using low impedance speakers with some equipment, particularly receivers. ...and even morso when playing them at high volume levels.

Perhaps Klipsch's "nominal impedance: 8 ohms compatible" statement is a bit of a stretch for these speakers. I've read on this site, so it must be true, that every 3db increase in sensitivity cuts a speaker's power requirement in half. That implies that even if the Pioneer's wattage is very overstated, driving 100db speakers with 40 watts is like driving 91db speakers with 320 watts.

So, unless you've got a ventilation problem with your Pioneer, it looks like Klipsch's 8 ohms isn't too close.

As a side note, my 80 watt/channel Denon 1803 powers my Klipsch RB-61's with ease.

I know someone that has the Pioneer VSX-815, which has the same amplifier that the 816 does. It also had shut down issues. It has a fan inside to help control thermal issues, but it only kicks on if the receiver has been hot for a while. My Yamaha has a fan and it has yet to turn on. It would seem the fan would have come on before it shut down, but they are finicky.

Measurements...

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1850/test-bench-klipsch-rf-83-home-theater-speaker-system.html

Sensitivity (SPL at 1 meter with 2.8 volts of pink-noise input)
front left/right: 96 dB
center: 95 dB
surround: 95 dB

Impedance (minimum/nominal)
front left/right: 2.8/11 ohms
center: 2.8/13 ohms
surround: 3.1/5 ohms

Front & Surround Speakers

The calling card for this system, as with most built around horn-loaded drivers, is efficiency, which is one reason it enjoys such exceptionally high sensitivity. Another, however, is relatively low minimum impedance for all channels. The impedance curves of the RF-83 towers and RC-64 center speaker have a single low point of 2.8 ohms at 180 Hz and climb as high as 11 and 13 ohms, respectively. But the RS-62 surround speaker never presents a load greater than 5 ohms between 200 and 3.5 kHz or above 13 kHz.

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timetohunt said:

""What is it you don't like about their sound with your Pioneer unit? Do they seem to distort when you turn up the volume, or do they lack low end? I do agree, if these are your speakers, the match was not made in heaven.""
In response to above quote from Buckeye, the problem is that the receiver ovlerloads and shuts down when powering the RF-83s at somewhat high listening levels. The receiver wont do this when I checked it with some lesser front speakers (small Cerwin Vega towers, 150 w 90db sensitivity). It will drive those to scary (and beyond desirable levels). I called both Klipsch and Pioneer. The Klipsch speakers happen to present lower impedence at certain high volume levels and frequencies and thus cause the VSX-816 receiver to run out of power, (getting it hot I guess), and then overloading and shutting itselft down.

Both Klipsch and Pioneer agreed that the VSX-816 (while 110w x 7) just is not the best amplification if I want it good and loud.

Just got back into the hobby and I'm still learning. Thanks, you all are great!

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Just to let you know, I have no trouble powering my RF-83s with the 120w 7.1 Denon AVR-3806 receiver. No problems with the Denon overheating, though I might not be playing them as loud as you have played yours.

timetohunt said:

Both Klipsch and Pioneer agreed that the VSX-816 (while 110w x 7) just is not the best amplification if I want it good and loud.

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Exactly who at Klipsch and who at Pioneer made these comments? The sales guy at the retail outlet does not count.

Nick

Nick250 said:

Exactly who at Klipsch and who at Pioneer made these comments? The sales guy at the retail outlet does not count.

Nick

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Did you read the specs in that link Nick? It seems perfectly logical for such a receiver to fall apart at high volumes. Similar to Klipsch subwoofers with the little amplifiers that blow fuses all the time, they dip to low and they crack under the pressure. I don't think that any sub should be made with such small amplifiers.

The same deal with the receiver, it is not intended to dip as low as 3 ohms, which sometimes those speakers do dip that low depending on the frequency.

Seth=L said:

Did you read the specs in that link Nick? It seems perfectly logical for such a receiver to fall apart at high volumes. Similar to Klipsch subwoofers with the little amplifiers that blow fuses all the time, they dip to low and they crack under the pressure. I don't think that any sub should be made with such small amplifiers.

The same deal with the receiver, it is not intended to dip as low as 3 ohms, which sometimes those speakers do dip that low depending on the frequency.

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Tell me about the problem with Klipsch subwoofers. I have an RW12b from them.
thanks
t